2021 Tesla Model Y review: Nearly great, critically flawed

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/reviews/2021-tesla-model-y-review/

by unclebucknasty • 5 years ago

131 176 5 years ago

cnet.com

vb6sp6• 5 years ago

I actively avoid being near Tesla cars when I'm driving

willcipriano• 5 years ago

I make sure I don't have one in front of me.

onion2k• 5 years ago

I'm not an expert but I think you should avoid all cars when you're driving.

samfar90• 5 years ago

Good one !

MisterBastahrd• 5 years ago

I had a near miss recently because the light was red at the intersection and I was pulling out of the u-turn lane. The Tesla driver in the lane closest to the interstate decided to floor it as soon as the light was green and came within 5 feet of hitting me.

tpmx2• 5 years ago

Tl;dr: The critical flaw is random braking in the mandatory crash avoidance system because they replaced radar with cameras + computer vision which has a lot of false positives in their current production software release.

I'm curious: Is the reason cost, availability or ideology?

adam_arthur5• 5 years ago

I would guess a bit of both.

In theory cameras should work fine, given that humans are pretty good at driving by just using our eyes. Of course vision will never be theoretically better than radar/laser. But should be good enough in the long run, and cheaper/more flexible.

My question is, what level of resolution and processing power is necessary to interpret inputs accurately though?

Just anecdotally, seems like autopilot is many years away from being close to autonomous. Self driving is an 80-20 kind of problem... The 20% of hard stuff seems completely unsolved by Tesla, judging by YouTube videos, reviews etc. Personally I think Google will beat them to the punch by many years

FireBeyond2• 5 years ago

The cameras in a Tesla are not 576mp (which is the closest approximation or estimate of our eyes), and nor do they have 21 stops of dynamic range (same).

And they also don't have 16+ years, minimum, of 24/7 "non-machine learning" to augment their judgment.

kevin_thibedeau• 5 years ago

A camera will never match radar range finding in adverse conditions. Those times where you'd like the safety features you're paying a premium for to actually work.

fiddlerwoaroof• 5 years ago

I think what happened is they had a bunch of orders they couldn’t deliver because they couldn’t get shipments of the radar part in 2020. So, they decided to go vision-only for autopilot and now they’re scrambling to get to parity.

tziki2• 5 years ago

It's widely thought to be due to the chip shortage. Tesla made numerous other adjustments due to chip shortage too.

LeoPanthera2• 5 years ago

I've owned a Model X for a year. It dates from before they removed radar, so autopilot still works very well.

The rest of the car, however, does not. It is the least reliable car I have ever known. I am currently tracking ten faults, and waiting for my fifth service, which could only be booked with nearly a month to wait.

The most serious faults involve the car sometimes failing to start without a hard reboot first (!), and then a constant stream of non-sensical errors while driving, which cause it to beep loudly with no way to stop it.

Dear reader, do not make my mistake, do not buy a Tesla. But not for the usual anti-Tesla propaganda reasons. Autopilot works great. Even the weird "falcon wing" doors are actually very good. It's just that the quality is awful and service is both overbooked and doesn't actually fix things.

I've never regretted a car purchase more.

PS. Does anyone in the bay area want to buy a Model X? ;)

ushakov3• 5 years ago

i know someone who has a fully-charged model 3

they had spent extra 20k euros to improve it

for instance: they added custom roof sealing, because it was getting too loud inside when driving on the highways

and then they (tastefully) refitted it with custom-made carbon elements on the inside and the outside

tuned/improved Teslas are not that uncommon if you know some owners

dylan6046• 5 years ago

Other than the noise sealing, that doesn't really say much negative about the car though (but that could be personal preference). That just says the person you know has plenty of money to customize the interior of the car in ways the manufacture doesn't offer.

FireBeyond2• 5 years ago

There are people who will charge between 3 and 5 thousand for you to have your factory-new Tesla delivered to them so they can fix panel gaps and a laundry list of the most common complaints before they deliver the car to you...

... and a scarily large number of people who think this is a reasonable proposition.

obnauticus2• 5 years ago

For something priced as high as the TM3, TMY or TMX, I find it hilarious that someone would spend even more money just to bring it to parity with other the automotive "luxuries" such as sound deadening. Mind you, most of these luxuries are have been provided by other economy cars at <50% of the cost for _decades_.

Just as an observation I don't think the new money buying these cars understands or has ever sat in an actual nice car at the same price point. It's reminiscent of bay area housing. Crap quality, outrageously expensive, and with plenty of people with no other life experiences willing to defend it at a moment's notice.

hvgk2• 5 years ago

A friend owns a 2020 model 3. The paint job was worse than my ass end 8 year old Citroen C3 so he spent the entire value of my ass end 8 year old Citroen C3 on a ceramic coating for it. And it still looks worse. I’d be so pissed if I’d spent on a Tesla and got that back for my money.

wpietri2• 5 years ago

Yeah, "move fast and break things" is a much better ethos for low-stakes software than high-stakes hardware.

011000113• 5 years ago

I'm worried that manufacturers see people accepting Tesla quality and follow suit.

I just read an article about Fisker following the "Apple model" where they stay lean and outsource all production. Uh, yeah that's great for a $1,000 phone but when I drop 50x that on a rolling death machine I expect quality to be controlled from end to end and kept in house.

PragmaticPulp• 5 years ago

Had a lot of friends buy Teslas in the past few years. Exact same story: Faults everywhere, long waits, poor service (albeit super friendly and with a smile).

One friend has received his Model 3 back twice now with the problem not fixed at all. He's resigned to just living with the problem until the service backlogs are lower.

It has been interesting to see how tolerance for these quality issues has waned as the shine of the Tesla brand has started to wear off.

Syonyk5• 5 years ago

The early adopters were True Believers. Elon was changing the world, and to admit any fault was to interfere with The Plan. So they tended exceedingly defensive of Tesla, well past what the outside world considered absurd when they actually admitted the problems.

Tesla has expanded outside that market, and to a person who is looking for a more or less reasonable car, that matches other cars in the price bracket, you're likely to hear nothing but good things about Tesla from the usual sources.

And then you get one, and realize that they're failing basic quality control things that literally every other auto maker worked out 20 years or more ago, and their software has all the stability of beta smartphone software.

None of this is new. It's just that anyone who said anything of the sort, or pointed out that you can't have 10x the sales on 1x the service centers, or such, got shouted down as a Tesla-shorting big oil shill for an awfully long time. Now, people who don't really care about Elon or The Plan are discovering that a Tesla is a bit of a crapshoot. Some are fine. Some are lemons. And God help you if you get a lemon, because the service experience (remember, according to the True Believers, dealerships are the spawn of Satan) is horrid.

drewg123• 5 years ago

[ slightly edited version of a reply i made a week ago on the CR article]:

I have a 2017 Model X that I bought new. The EV part is great, its everything else that sucks. Since I've had it, I've taken it for service for the following:

o Arrived w/o Tow pkg (Tesla "forgot" it, was installed via service center appt)

o falcon wing doors improperly adjusted, leading to wind noise and water intrusion

o Loud wind noise and fogging passenger side windows: Due to improperly installed "triangle" window on passenger door

o Worn half shafts caused shudder under acceleration, replaced at ~20k miles

o fogging drivers side A pillar camera after rain, leading to "navigate on autopilot unavailable"

o Drove in "low" mode to preserve half shafts, caused excessive tire wear. Wore inner rear tires down to a puncture around 30k miles. Replaced tires and had car re-aligned to run in "low" mode.

o Half shafts replaced again at 38k miles

o Upper control arms shot around 39k miles, car just out of warranty, and Tesla initially wanted $1k to fix, but eventually fixed for free after I complained.

All in all, I'm thinking to get a different car since I need a car that works. I don't want a non-Tesla EV since the charging options for non-Tesla EVs suck. I'm currently looking at PHEVs. Ironically, I'll probably unload the Tesla for another EV only if/when Tesla opens superchargers up to other EVs.

How much of a loss would you take if you sold your Model X right now? They are not very available new, so I assume you would not loose too much money. Mine has actually gained a bit in value over the last 18 months or so..

shituonui3• 5 years ago

PHEVs make more sense to me anyway. For the majority of trips they run off the battery which makes them just as good as a BEV, but they have no problems with range and they are a whole lot cheaper.

mulcahey2• 5 years ago

I think the build quality of the 3/Y is superior to that of the S/X, at least the pre-refresh ones.

steelframe2• 5 years ago

Worn half shafts caused shudder under acceleration, replaced at ~20k miles

I owned a 2016 Model X, and I got the dreaded half-shaft shudder after only 5k miles. When I took it in to the SC for evaluation, the tech driving the car blurted, "Oh yeah, there it is! This happens with all the Model Xs" when moderately accelerating uphill and the car shuddered quite a bit.

Fast-forward 20 minutes, I'm sitting at the desk with the SC rep, and they say, "Yes there was a shudder, but that's normal." That was the 11th -- and final -- issue I had with that car. I traded it in for a Jaguar I-PACE shortly after and never looked back.

ZoomerCretin• 5 years ago

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a38135245/tesla-opens-supe...

shituonui3• 5 years ago

Autopilot works great.

I don't think anyone claims otherwise on the older models. The problem is twofold:

1. They promised "Full Self Driving" and delivered ordinary driver assistance.

2. The vision-based approach just plain does not work.

dham3• 5 years ago

The vision-based approach just plain does not work.

No. Vision is the one and only future for self driving.

Source: Been closely following this scene for years and own a Comma 2 (Open Pilot).

martythemaniak2• 5 years ago

I've had a Model3 for three and a half years now (very early VIN). It's been our primary and for much of the time, only car. It's been fantastic, and I've recommended it to everyone, and three people I know have purchased 3s/Ys as well and have also been super satisfied. Is it flawless? No - upon delivery the read badge was missing and the glove box had a gap. Went to get it fixed. Year after that the front arms needed replacing. A few months ago the charge port actuator stopped working (you can still lift it manually) - clicked a few buttons in the app and a guy came by to fix it on our driveway.

We have a secondary ICEV and we both hate it and mock it. It is actually one the best ICEVs in its class, but fundamentally, all ICEVs are irredeemably terrible. It needs replacing soon and I've been through every single EV out there considering alternatives, but in the end we have to replace it with a Model Y.

Teslas are not flawless cars, but they are, simply, the best cars.

Marazan• 5 years ago

My car doesn't randomly apply the brakes for no reason.

ozzythecat• 5 years ago

Best by what metric?

I have a six year old Corolla. No issues at all. We put gas in it and have tire rotations and regular oil changes.

My Corolla is like my AirPod Pros. It just works, every time, consistently. Personally, I just want a car that has no hassles and is dependable above all else. I’d like a cold A/C on hot days and a good heater on cold days.

I guess my point is - I’d love to drive an electric car and not have to go to the gas pump. But I’m not willing to deal with all the myriad issues I so often hear about from Tesla owners. I’m not interested in paying a premium for some auto maker to alpha, beta, and pre-prod test their product before getting it to modern manufacturing and reliability standards.

Amezarak• 5 years ago

Can you elaborate on what makes ICE vehicles "irredeemably terrible"? I can never understand what I'm missing. I have two:

One is the cheapest car made by a major manufacturer, and the cheapest trim model. I have no complaints about how it drives, I actually enjoy it. But on very hot days, the AC has trouble keeping up, and an electronic display has been only intermittently functional for some time. Naturally, being a special electronic display, it costs some $600 to replace, so I haven't bothered. On very long drives (5+ hours), it does wear me out more than the second car.

The other is a crossover. It is slightly more comfortable than the hatchback. The AC is definitely powerful enough, even on hot days. It is much more pleasant to drive on long trips, I think primarily due to the lanekeeping and automatic cruise control. My only real complaint is too many controls are on the touchscreen - basically any AC controls other than temperature and fan speed.

When I ask other EV owners, it seems like all they can say are "it's really quiet" and "it has amazing acceleration." But my cars are already very quiet (sometimes I am not sure if they are on) and I never need any more acceleration than I have - I avoid accelerating hard in general, since it wastes gas and I'm sure also battery. And given the problems I do have with my cars, it seems like the average EV is going to be worse - if I don't like touchscreen controls, surely buying a Tesla is not going to make me happy. So what is the factor EVs have that just blows ICEZs away for the average Joe? I just don't get it.

EDIT: I guess another one they frequently mention is "not having to go to the gas station", but a five minute trip once a week isn't really causing me much hardship, especially if I'm going in to buy lottery tickets anyway.

ohgodplsno2• 5 years ago

Teslas are not flawless cars, but they are, simply, the best cars.

Pffffrt. By what metrics you would measure that aside, it does feel like you've never been into high quality cars. A Mercedes Class S is a veritable massive step up compared to a Tesla, for similar prices. Recent EVs like the Ioniq 5 are very much matching the Teslas in everything

boppo1• 5 years ago

Your experience of multiple things failing in just a few years is not what the average person would call "fantastic".

bryan0• 5 years ago

Consumer Reports agrees with you:

Model X ranked dead-last among all cars for reliability, scoring a 5 out of 100.

https://www.sfgate.com/tech/article/Tesla-ranks-almost-dead-...

zhoujianfu• 5 years ago

My first X (2016) went to the shop 17 times in the first year, all for different issues. It’s now finally more or less working reliably.

I got a new X in 2019 and so far it’s had no issues at all.

steelframe2• 5 years ago

I got a new X in 2019

I certainly salute you for your tenacity with the brand. After I unloaded my 2016 Model X, you couldn't convince me to touch another one of those cars with a 10-foot pole.

011000113• 5 years ago

I'm a Tesla hater, but I think it's reasonable to assume their quality will dramatically improve as they get production figured out and stop hacking things together to meet their numbers.

gnicholas2• 5 years ago

Car buyers who are unhappy with their Teslas should look into their local 'lemon law', which can be very consumer-friendly. In CA, for example, the lemon law covers you up to 18 months after purchase, and if you satisfy any one of the prongs then the manufacturer will be required to buy the car back from you. Summary of the criteria: [1]

• for defects that could cause injury/death, the manufacturer has tried unsuccessfully to fix the problem twice

• for any other defects, the manufacturer has tried unsuccessfully to fix the problem 4 times

• the vehicle has been 'in the shop' for a total of 30 days (need not be consecutive)

We had a VW that qualified for lemon law relief, and VW was forced to purchase the car back from us, including sales tax. There was a minimal amount that was not refunded, to reflect the month or so that we got to use the car before it started acting up.

1: https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/when-can-you-use-calif...

LeoPanthera2• 5 years ago

Unfortunately I've had so many different problems that Tesla has only had the opportunity to look at each one once or twice. And none of them are of the "injury/death" kind, at least as far as I know.

But they keep piling up, up to ten now.

zarkov993• 5 years ago

I have a model S P85+ that is now 8+ years old. Its the best car I have ever had, bar none, and I have had nice cars before. Its still smooth, powerful, comfortable, silent, safe and I still love to drive it. I have had issues with it, over the years, but every single time, Tesla stepped up, sorted the issue in the most convenient way possible, sometimes working my driveway, sometimes by driving a loaner to my office. I have never had a car that was better or service that was anywhere in the same class. I will likely never buy any other brand of car. Dear reader, please buy a Tesla, its the best car out there, its the safest car for your family and its made in America, by a company that is showing all of us that America can still innovate, still lead the world.

carlivar4• 5 years ago

When was the last time they drove a loaner to you? As I understand it, that level of service was discontinued a few years back (a relic of the luxury S/X only days).

worik2• 5 years ago

" I have had issues with it, over the years, but every single time, Tesla stepped up"

Is that not the point? The best car you have had, with issues.

I have a Honda Fit. It is getting on to fifteen years old now. No issues ever except for wear.

But Honda know a lot about making cars. Tesla tried to disrupt the entire process. This is where hubris gets you

blamazon• 5 years ago

Model X ownership is a breeze far from the Bay Area. My mom’s model X has gone in at least a dozen times and there’s never a wait for an appointment. The local service center is excellent.

zzleeper• 5 years ago

A dozen times

That's what's so weird to me. I own an old 2012 Hyundai Accent, bought used at ~12k, and over the last five years I've only taken it for:

- Checkup and oil change - Wheel change - Battery change

But then I see all these examples of Tesla owners having to fix issue after issue after issue and saying "it's not so bad I just lost an afternoon each time going for an apt"

rock_hard• 5 years ago

Had a Model Y for a year now

Hands down the best car I have ever had and I have owned Audis, BMWs and other high end cars.

Whenever I have to drive a non Tesla me and my wife just can’t stop laughing at how ridiculous they are…it’s like operating steam engines

Sucks that others had problems with it but everyone I know including ourselves couldn’t be more happy with their Tesla

dntrkv• 5 years ago

Sucks that others had problems with it but everyone I know including ourselves couldn’t be more happy with their Tesla

This is my experience talking to everyone I know with a Tesla. Not saying the complaints aren't real, but the internet really does bring out the selection bias when it comes to people having issues with their purchase. If you look at Consumer Reports for most satisfied car purchases, all of the Teslas make the top 10.

alphabettsy2• 5 years ago

Ridiculous how? I loved the experience of driving a Tesla, but what’s so significantly better that it would cause laughter?

dham3• 5 years ago

Autopilot works great

So does my $1K Open Pilot on a significantly cheaper Rav 4. Also you don't have to put hands on wheel. If you have to put your hands on wheel for adaptive cruise control you might as well just drive the car.

eps• 5 years ago

Steering wheel is not a rectangle, so that alone is a plus.

Shank• 5 years ago

I can't conclusively say that it's because of the missing radar, but I can say that our Model Y is bad at detecting obstructions ahead. Really, really bad. The big issue is false positives, a problem that has become known as "phantom braking" among Tesla owners. Basically, the car often gets confused and thinks there's an obstacle ahead and engages the automatic emergency braking system. You get an instant, unwanted and often strong application of the brakes.

I could be wrong, but I didn’t see any mention of taking their car in for repair or service. I’m a pretty big Tesla quality control skeptic — seeing the after-delivery issues people have with panel gaps and other issues stops me from buying an otherwise exciting car. But the safety system being defective is something that would prompt me to take the car in for service immediately. Did they not do that?

I honestly find this review quite frustrating. It seems like such a glaring flaw there would be an entire article dedicated to interviews with owners, a conversation transcript with Tesla service, and maybe even a note about how responsive Tesla is about fixing the problem. Instead, it seems like they found the issue, decided that it was acceptable enough to not get fixed, and published.

I can see this being fair, but it doesn’t strike me as the most honest unless every shipping car has the same problem.

Jare• 5 years ago

The flaw was not unique to their car, or new at all. They describe how owners have already nicknamed the issue, so

unless every shipping car has the same problem

Seems close enough.

rconti• 5 years ago

I mean, "phantom braking" seems like a pretty obvious term for such behavior. Never had it on my laser cruise-equipped Golf R, nor on our radar-equipped Tesla, but it's immediately intuitive what they mean by it.

I will say, the Tesla needed to have the "brake warning" moved to 'late' from 'medium' to not making annoying alerts from time to time, which is something my Golf did also, but even more rarely. I only had the Golf for about 30k miles because I somewhat-unexpectedly bought the Telsa 3, which is now up over 53k miles.

adam_arthur5• 5 years ago

While it's pretty obvious that many manufacturers are coming out with their own EVs, there seems to be something of a bubble that isn't paying attention or totally ignores this.

It will be interesting to see how the EV space evolves once there are mass amounts of competitor vehicles available/on the road.

Specifically interesting to see how it affects valuations for these companies.

I suspect Tesla's growth rate will slow considerably once there are comparably priced options from mainstream brands. E.g. F-150 vs Cybertruck. Or even a car from Apple, though that's many years out.

How obvious does the inevitability have to be to start denting valuations?

There's still the self driving story, but it does not appear they've made material progress on the hardest 20% of it. Most brands will have autonomous highway driving without much issue, and that's where 80% of the value is anyway. And likely Google will beat them to the punch on the taxi side.

dylan6046• 5 years ago

E.g. F-150 vs Cybertruck.

I'm in Texas, and there are stereotype supporting large number of truck owners around. Of the ones I've spoken to about Cybertruck, not one of them are interested in the body. People like how their Fords/Dodge/Chevy trucks look, so taking the design so far away from the norm just seems like an odd decision. Worse than the original Prius design.

jefftk3• 5 years ago

The original Prius design was very conventional: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:1st-Toyota-Prius.jpg

The second generation is the well-known streamlined shape: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:2008_Toyota_Prius_(N...

(I think the shape was probably not a mistake on Toyota's part. A lot of people were buying them partly because they wanted other people to know they had them, and the shape indicated this very clearly.)

enchiridion• 5 years ago

That’s what everyone says now. I think it’ll be a different story once there are cyber trucks on the road for everyone to see.

throwaway815232• 5 years ago

I can't understand the deal with the electric F150 or almost any other modern pickup. They all have full sized 4 door interiors now, so as the truck has gotten bigger, the truck bed (the actually useful part that distinguishes a truck from a car) has gotten smaller. They are usually under 5.5 feet now, so there's many types of furniture you can't really move in them, which you could move in older, smaller pickups. Any idea? It kills the electric F150's attraction as far as I'm concerned. A 2-door model with those little vestigial jump seats behind the main seats and a longer bed would be a lot more useful.

stefan_2• 5 years ago

You mean the truck bed was never more than a styling accent? Say it ain't so! All the people that need it have long figured out they would rather use a van.

VirusNewbie• 5 years ago

I'm curious as well, though I am slightly more bullish on Tesla. I chose one after being a lifelong BMW owner and having no interest in an electric, it was after seeing how little car I could get for 50k that had me go check out a friend's Model 3, and being very impressed. Cost of ownership is considerably less than comparable cars so far, and I've had a couple minor issues, similar to some BMWs I've had.

I agree overall fit and finish trails the luxury brands, but looking at what 70k gets you from audi is a joke compared to tesla. Clearly the other manufacturers are quite a ways behind in both battery tech and autopilot tech. If I had a 100k to spend on a car, I might pick the Porsche electric, but certainly everything else seems to fall far short of a Model 3 in that price range and I'm not aware of anything catching up soon.

adam_arthur5• 5 years ago

I don't want to diminish Tesla's achievements.

They are well ahead in many respects, and clearly have the edge for now. But it's inevitable that the market will be flooded with roughly equivalent EVs in the next few years.

Ford was dominant in ICE for awhile too. Being a leader affords you additional margin and runway, but very hard to believe it will be lasting.

Look at the Rivian and F-150 for comparable cars. I believe the range may be slightly less, but keep in mind, Tesla still buys most of its batteries from Panasonic. They aren't super proprietary tech that's fully manufacture in-house, though I'm sure they had a hand in the design etc.

Lucid has more range than a Tesla I believe, though is more expensive. EV is in some ways easier than ICE, due to fewer moving parts. But certainly a totally different skill/tech. There are many more new EV startups than there were for ICE at least.

I do agree that self driving can be a strong differentiator if it improves more. In some ways improving it's capabilities makes it more dangerous until it passes the "no need to pay attention" threshold. E.g. the better it is the less humans will pay attention, so there needs to be close to zero critical faults for people to safely rely on it.

From the examples I've seen, the self driving seems very far off from this level when city driving. But not speaking from personal experience. And highway seems like a mostly easy and contained problem, that is unlikely to be a differentiator for long. Most new cars have auto-follow and lanekeeping already which gives you 90% of the benefit in the highway context.

aresant• 5 years ago

Rented my first Tesla from turo recently

Super impressed with the range, performance, the modernity of the interfaces and thoughtfulness of features. Feels like the future.

Sort of shocked by the build quality including a latch that got stuck and wouldn't allow the door to close. Managed to get it wedged open with a tool on hand, but could see it being a showstopper / tow truck moment for many.

The quality / bs issues seem fixable so it's hard not to still feel optimistic about the platform on a whole, but one would hope between the record debt / demand / and liquidity of that org at the moment that they are briskly addressing.

wodenokoto• 5 years ago

Tesla’s makes me happy that I don’t have a lot of money nor a drivers license.

They are SO desirable and yet so flawed.

It’s really nice not having to contemplate ownership of one.

mulcahey2• 5 years ago

Commenting just to say that I've had a Model 3 since 2017 with zero issues. Anecdotally, I have tons of friends with Teslas and haven't heard a single nightmare service or build quality issue from any of them.

Autopilot has been great -- probably over half my miles driven. Still a work-in-progress for city streets but FSD improvements have been pretty impressive from what I've observed on YouTube.

Service has been pretty great too actually -- the appointment booking process I just went through to get new tires felt like the future since it's completely through the app. My only wish is that they had better loaner availability in CA. In TX the availability does seem better though since I moved here.

bwanab• 5 years ago

My M3 since 2019. No issues at all. I wish all my other cars had been so good.

tziki2• 5 years ago

These (+ reliability concerns) are pretty much the reasons why I decided to wait until buying a new car. BMW has said they'll introduce actual self-driving features (as in, they'll assume legal liability) in 2022. While I'm on the fence on whether they'll actually deliver, if manufacturers like BMW are willing to commit to such timelines it gives me hope these features aren't too far away from being commonplace.

pmcollins• 5 years ago

tldr: the author writes off the entire car because the optional self driving feature, which has like 10% uptake, doesn’t perform well on side roads.

djanogo• 5 years ago

He is talking about adaptive cruise control, which is a standard feature in 20k cars now(called ACC on Honda Civic or TSS 2 on Toyota Corolla).

"A $70,000 car that can't even do cruise control is inexcusable and so, for now at least, I must recommend against the Model Y."

tpmx2• 5 years ago

My understanding is that the car is randomly braking even when the optional self driving feature isn't used because they attempted to replace a long-time tested radar-based crash avoidance safety system (mandatory in US+EU) with something based on cameras + computer vision because of ... reasons.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

kbos872• 5 years ago

This wasn't clear to me either in the video or the review.

uniformlyrandom• 5 years ago

So this is how you get views and clicks these days - make a couple of factually incorrect statements, refuse to do any research, put a FUD clickbait in the title, and bingo - you are a "popular" "journalist".

stevev• 5 years ago

This makes me weary about considering the Tesla Cybertruck. Besides the author, the amount of topics or personal stories about the quality of Tesla vehicles looks alarming.

erikpukinskis• 5 years ago

I think you mean leery, or maybe wary.

Unless they actually made you tired.

jokoon• 5 years ago

When are they going to build a small, cheap electric car? Model S, X, Y, 3 all those cars are heavy tanks.

I'm quite tired of those companies always aiming for rich customers. If Musk was really for the environment, he would try to make those cars affordable.

I guess Tesla doesn't have the production capacity to make a high production cheaper car yet?

moonchrome• 5 years ago

They are beyond production capacity with "rich cars" (IMO Y and 3 especially are firmly middle class cars). Why would they go into a market that's even higher volume and lower margins when they can't cover the more profitable market demand ?

If anything, other manufacturers are trying to get out of that market segment because regulation is making it too unprofitable to be in (eg. mandatory safety features, CO2 emissions rates for ICEs), a lot of A segment is not getting refreshed in EU/is being discontinued. You will probably see small "expensive" cars like Electric Mini and Smart cars.

bradlys2• 5 years ago

$60k electric cars are mostly an upper middle class thing. I haven’t met anyone who is under $100k/yr individual income and bought a Tesla. (Excluding bank of mom and dad)

It’s not a civic.

faebi• 5 years ago

Exactly. They won't lower their prices and margins until their months of backlog clear up either because of less customers buying at that price point or more cars being build.

noodle• 5 years ago

Well, the reality is that they also have to create and run a profitable business, as well, which they would have failed at if they started with cheaper vehicles. It seems likely they'll go downmarket eventually, once they have the scale to survive off of the lower margins that come with cheaper cars.

011000113• 5 years ago

There is talk of a Model 2 being exactly that car. Personally I'm happy with my Bolt(random fires notwithstanding) and find it fills that niche. If the Model 2 is out next year when my lease expires I'd consider it, but I suspect I'll stick with the Bolt since it will be fairly mature by then. I don't like the idea of buying a newly designed vehicle before the faults have been shaken out.

yashap• 5 years ago

There are tonnes of reasonably priced PHEVs from other manufacturers, that are IMO great choices for people who simply want reliable, flexible cars that use very little gas. For example the PHEV versions of the Toyota RAV4, Kia Niro, Hyundai Santa Fe and Ioniq, Honda Clarity, Ford Escape, etc. Fully electric for city driving, gas when you need it for long trips, reasonably priced, from manufacturers who have been making reliable cars for decades. More practical and generally cheaper than fully electric cars.

Tesla are a luxury brand, and they know it, I think they’d have trouble competing in the more mass market/practical space. They’ll probably move there eventually, but I’m not surprised they’re sticking with their more luxury niche for now, they’re probably not yet capable of keeping costs as low as traditional car makers, while keeping quality high. They’re basically still learning how to build cars at scale.

ryzvonusef2• 5 years ago

When are they going to build a small, cheap electric car?

plenty of good cheap Ev... coming from China:

1- Ora Cat:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14XESFFx46M

2- Leapmotor T03

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkOqIEUAlw4

There was a recent Sandy Munro video, where he basically stated that because the Chinese started on the EV bandwagon much earlier (due to executive fiat) They simply have more options...not because they are any more genius, but simply because they had the time and the drive to actually work on the damn thing.

He was called to consult on various cars, and by seeing the progress of their operations, he can see that the Chinese have strengthened their supply lines, removed a lot of the kinks and ramped up production and are getting good with design and fit/finish quality.

If you want cheap EV, look to China

georgewfraser2• 5 years ago

I don’t know how to square this review with my own experience of owning a Y for a year. The autopilot is nearly perfect, noticeably better than a human driver in stop and go traffic on the highway. Given the history of downright dishonest reviews by old school car people with an irrational hatred of Tesla, this review really should have been accompanied by video evidence of phantom braking.

muglug2• 5 years ago

this review really should have been accompanied by video evidence of phantom braking

There's a video review in the article which includes many examples of phantom breaking.

georgewfraser2• 5 years ago

Doh, how did I miss that? Now I understand: the phantom breaking is all on non-highways. I only use autopilot on highways and highway-like roads.

csa4• 5 years ago

Agreed.

I got my Model Y in June.

Yes, sometimes it has phantom braking. For reference, on a 9 hour drive to LV from my house, it happened maybe 5 times, and they were all fixed with a mild press of the accelerator. If this is a deal breaker for you, don’t get a Tesla. If the failed promise of FSD is a deal breaker for you, don’t get a Tesla (I don’t have it and don’t want it).

Other than the minor issues (for me) of occasional phantom braking and broken FSD promises, the car has been amazing. Build quality was perfect, it has run incredibly well, and it is simply a joy to drive.

My friend ordered his a week after I took him on a ride, and he doesn’t think he will ever own a car that’s not a Tesla (I disagree with him, because competition will be a thing at some point, but he’s directionally correct).

Many of my other friends have made their deposit and are just waiting for their number to come up.

Rather than read reviews, talk to people who own the model you are planning to purchase (same model and similar “model year”). Then take the car on a test drive. You will probably know at that point if it’s for you or not.

btbuilder• 5 years ago

Maybe I am old-school but 5 times in a 9 hour drive seems unacceptably high for a potentially dangerous event. Is it incorrect to believe the car brakes at full braking force? Is there some predictor of the car making this error that makes it easier to handle?

tyingq• 5 years ago

This part seems like fair criticism to me:

"looking at the Autopilot status and navigation prompts means having to gaze well down toward the bottom of that display. That means taking your eyes a long way from the road. A simple gauge cluster or heads-up display would solve the issue, but none are available, a curious omission on a car costing this much."

Hard to comment on the phantom braking without experiencing it myself though.

ericd2• 5 years ago

The switch to vision-only seems to be the cause - I've seen reports of people with radars installed that are on the autopilot beta program which got them the vision-only autopilot deployment, and they reported that they suddenly started getting a bunch of phantom braking. Reverting back to the version with radar for those with it installed reportedly fixed it.

So people who've bought recent no-radar Teslas are having a different experience than those with older models.

BluSyn• 5 years ago

I have an early build 2018 Model 3 Performance. I have experienced almost zero quality issues. I use Autopilot frequently and have experienced phantom braking maybe 5 times ever in 3+ years, and certainly isn't a deal-breaker. In fact it's improved dramatically since I first got the car.

I feel like all I ever hear from outside the Tesla owner bubble is quality issues, complaints, weird problems I've never experienced. When I talk to other Tesla owners, they also are confused by this phenomena, because the vast majority I've talked to have the same experience as me; complete joy in the product, very few if any complaints at all. Especially relative to any other car I have owned or is available on the market today, I wouldn't recommend buying anything else.

When people talk about annoying Tesla fanboys, this is the core of problem. On the one hand you have the public perception of Tesla cars, based on reviews like this one. Then you have actual experience from the *majority* of owners being the exact opposite. Tesla certainly has issues, but so does GM, Ford, and every other auto maker. Reviewers rarely shout these issues in the headlines. But with Tesla it's always different.

What are we do to about this instead? Why is every review of Tesla highlighting the flaws, whereas every review of non-EV cars highlight the positives? How come Tesla owners don't get to write about their positive experiences without being called fanboys or shills?

11thEarlOfMar• 5 years ago

I owned a BMW 328i for 20 years. I loved that car dearly.

I've now got 94,000 miles on a 2018 Model 3 long range. It's more fun than the BMW in every way. Handles better, accelerates faster, it's much quieter inside. The sound system is much better than the HKs in the BMW. It's more comfortable. I can drive for 4 hours straight with no discomfort.

I don't have autopilot cuz my insurance guy wouldn't give me a discount if I bought it. Once he does, I'll add it.

Regarding service: It's on the 3rd set of tires and I replaced the cracked windshield.

That's it.

alphabettsy2• 5 years ago

You’re comparing a BMW designed in the late 90s to a brand new car.. If it wasn’t better that would be concerning.

ryzvonusef2• 5 years ago

I don't have autopilot

you mean FSD

you have autopilot by default

ohgodplsno2• 5 years ago

have experienced phantom braking maybe 5 times

I'm sure the drivers behind you were thrilled to learn it didn't bother you when your car decided to randomly brake.

Why is every review of Tesla highlighting the flaws, whereas every review of non-EV cars highlight the positives?

Amongst other things, because other constructors aren't taking every opportunity to jerk themselves about how you're the pretended best in the world when they're just a mediocre constructor selling overpriced cars with bad build quality and lying on having level 5 autopilot at every occasion.

How come Tesla owners don't get to write about their positive experiences without being called fanboys or shills?

Because ultimately, your feelings about the car gets overshadowed by the fact that Tesla is at the bottom of every single reliability study. They're worse than Jeeps, ffs. That's a new record.

trulyme• 5 years ago

Well, maybe this will change when the reviewer doesn't find water in the trunk of the car after washing it? Or when their car doesn't brake for no reason? Some things are simply not acceptable for ordinary users who are accustomed to other companies' quality standards. Especially at comparable price point.

mkeespiet• 5 years ago

This could have been my words! Tesla Model 3 owner here from the Netherlands

seadan83• 5 years ago

The vehicle was unsafe. That's a flaw I want to hear about.

scoopertrooper• 5 years ago

Interestingly, the Model 3 actually has a pretty good reputation for reliability. Somehow it's the more expensive models that tend to do worse.

rekoros• 5 years ago

We put 90K miles on our 2018 Model S D100

It’s had a couple issues, but nothing major - best car I’ve owned by far.

dmitrybrant• 5 years ago

I was an early-ish adopter of the Model 3 (2018), and I couldn't be happier with it. I've had zero hardware quality issues, and one software issue where it did a cold reboot one day and forgot my personalization settings. But otherwise it's an absolute pleasure.

However, big caveat: I absolutely do not use Autopilot, nor do I ever plan to. I bought the car because I love to drive it -- the way it handles, the way it accelerates, etc. The only "automatic" feature I've used is literally the cruise control, i.e. maintaining a set speed on the highway. That's the farthest I trust it to do anything automatically.

Being tangentially involved in the field of machine vision / machine learning, I understand the limitations of the current technology, and am appalled at how brazenly Tesla is rolling out this half-baked functionality to users, and marketing it as if full self-driving is just around the corner, when in fact it has a long, long way to go.

huijzer• 5 years ago

This is also another example of people promising an AI revolution, but in fact we end up with phantom breaking.

kbos872• 5 years ago

I may have missed this, but did the reviewer ever definitively, clearly say the conditions under which he experienced phantom braking? Was he using autopilot, or was this automatic emergency braking engaging without autopilot engaged? Those are two very different scenarios. If it happened with autopilot engaged, I'd want to know what type of road he was driving on.

One other thing I'll throw out there - many comments here seem to chalk up the possibility of phantom braking to the fact that Tesla has moved entirely to a computer vision system in the latest model Y, and that the lack of supplemental radar couldn't possibly be effective. Subaru's Eyesight system is 100% based on computer vision (unless you are reversing), I've driven 45k miles with it using adaptive cruise control and the always-on automatic emergency braking. I've experienced a phantom alert once or twice (the car momentarily thinks it sees an obstacle, both times thick smoke from a manhole in front of the car) but I've never experienced anything like the "phantom braking" he describes.

I know I'm talking about a different manufacturer, but I think it's misinformed to say that computer vision alone can't pull this off when other manufacturers clearly have been for years.

v3rt3x• 5 years ago

I’ve had multiple high end cars, including a BMW 750 Li and a Porsche 911. My 21 Model Y is hands down my favorite and significantly more reliable.

oxplot• 5 years ago

Since we're doing the anecdote thing here:

I've had a Model 3 for 2 years now. Best effing car ever (I owned 3 prior to it). Haven't had a single issue that wasn't my fault. Service is super convenient, informative and fast. The lack of clutter, instant and sustained torque in addition to unreal handling, makes every other car, in its class or above (test driven cars twice the price), feel like a toy and pure junk.

So abso-lutely buy a Tesla if you've been on the fence.

ethagknight2• 5 years ago

Ok so who has the biggest anecdote? CNET has the platform, and it’s an ad sponsored medium willing to hit pieces for a fee. I just like to argue on the internet for fake points. I recently owned a 2015 Lexus LX570 that engaged emergency seatbelt tensioners (and I think engaged auto braking too?) every time I came across a steel plate road cover for construction. Something about the solid metal hit the radar system just right and caused it to panic. And caused me to damn near have a heart attack every time and swerve, hitting something else. That’s dangerous, and it’s Lexus flagship model. I traded that in for a Model Y.

I have occasionally had phantom braking, and I think the collision warning system is a little frenetic, but phantom braking beats the hell out of phantom acceleration (Ford?), or you know, not braking when it really should (most other late model cars on the road today, and also many new cars currently for sale). I consider it an annoyance but not a safety concern unless there’s some jagweed tailgating me. If you are an appropriately responsive driver with your hands on the wheel and feet ready to engage the pedals, you can trivially override the braking. Only if you tune out does it become a problem. Was the author not safely piloting his vehicle?

The real reason I can tell this is a hit piece is that anyone reviewing the Model Y knows that it’s nearly perfect in every way, maybe a little too expensive, maybe a little cheapish materials in certain areas, but the real massive failure is that the suspension is borderline intolerable on routine city streets. Still thinking about trading it in for that reason alone.

Elon, if you or anyone at Tesla read this, please for the love of all that is good give me an option for variable suspension modes. I got the black turbine wheel upgrade that CNET rightfully said to pass on because, while the look absolutely amazing, I feel like I’ve become one with the asphalt in a bad way. I can’t use the cup holders because my coffees shoot out of the little sip holes at every minor bump. Maybe it’s just me coming from a soggy bottomed LX.

ethagknight2• 5 years ago

Sorry for the snark at the beginning of my post, but I read the article, felt like it was off.

2021 Tesla Model Y review: Nearly great, critically flawed

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