Avoiding a transit of the United States

http://wikitravel.org/en/Avoiding_a_transit_of_the_United_States

by geoka9 • 15 years ago

152 92 15 years ago

Semiapies• 15 years ago

And suddenly, I really, really miss the 90s.

I don't miss the 18hour europe-far east flights with stopovers in Alaska or India because you couldn't fly over the USSR.

Of course that was because the USSR was an evil empire with an out of control military, a bloated sense of it's own importance and a paranoia about foreigners.

StavrosK2• 15 years ago

> Of course that was because the USSR was an evil empire with an out of control military, a bloated sense of it's own importance and a paranoia about foreigners.

Wait, are you implying that that is now the US, or should I make that implication?

middus• 15 years ago

The USSR in the 90s?

jarin• 15 years ago

We're now international air travel's "wrong side of the tracks".

br12• 15 years ago

FWIW, my sister-in-law took stopped in LA bound for South Korea without a Visa and wasn't just kicked home. The US embassy ultimately got things sorted out.

georgieporgie5• 15 years ago

According to the linked page, South Korea participates in the Visa Waiver Program, so it wouldn't be a problem.

br12• 15 years ago

Sorry, I was unclear. We are from Uruguay. She was just in transit in the US.

alextp• 15 years ago

The fact that transit visas are something you need to apply for, pay fees, and risk being refused (and that going into a permanent record) makes no sense for me.

WildUtah2• 15 years ago

Note that you have to show up for an in-person interview with documentation about your job, family, and finances just to apply for a transit visa. The appointment for the interview costs $140. And the visas are frequently denied without explanation. No refunds.

geoka92• 15 years ago

Not to mention the incredibly detailed application that takes several hours to fill out.

gamble• 15 years ago

It's because American airports stupidly don't have sterile transit, unlike practically every other country. I'm a Canadian, and when I transfer through LAX and go through customs, I pop out in the arrivals area. There's nothing to stop me from hailing a cab.

georgieporgie5• 15 years ago

Last time I went to Japan, I connected through Vancouver airport in Canada. I had to go through Canadian customs because they don't segregate all international flights. Bizarrely, the customs guy looked at my ticket, then asked how long I intended to stay in Canada (my connecting flight was in ~2hrs).

For the same reason, on return, I couldn't bring back any Japanese booze from the airport. I had to go through a second liquids and customs check at YVR.

jpr• 15 years ago

FWIW, as a EU citizen the things I've heard about traveling to/from/in US have mostly made me go wtf. Perhaps it's just because I spend too much time reading about TSA etc. on reddit, but maybe not.

alain94040• 15 years ago

On one hand, what your read online is greatly exaggerated. Most of the time, you show up at the airport, stand in line for 5 minutes, go through a metal detector, and that's it. Just like it's always been.

On the other hand, recently (should I say this anonymously), annoyed by the extra security and machines, when a TSA agent asked me to take off my shoes and my sweater, I said fine. I went topless. After all, that's what the new machines see anyway.

The look on the TSA agent's face? Ouch.

athom• 15 years ago

Not very professional of them, I'd say.

yeahidid• 15 years ago

Be honest, how many of you clicked his profile to find out if he was a woman?

kalleboo3• 15 years ago

As an EU citizen you get interrogated why you're visiting the U.S. When I was in SF for WWDC, it was easy, "I'm here for Apple's WWDC". Any other time it's been a 15 minute ordeal of explaining what computer software is exactly and how my international contractor relationship works and why I'm not going to escape into the forests and become a day laborer. Once they even asked for a bank statement. In no other countries I've traveled to (20+) have I had to explain why I'm there aside from checking a box on a paper form.

Frazzydee• 15 years ago

This would be my biggest problem, I think it's just nuts: "all travellers transiting in the USA using either a transit visa or the Visa Waiver Program will be photographed and fingerprinted."

billpaetzke• 15 years ago

Everyone has to take off sweater, sweatshirt, coat, shoes, and sometimes belt and watch.

I have flown in JFK, LAX, LAS, and MKE since the body scanners started. There's usually at least one line that uses a metal detector still. So I always pick that line.

It is a joke, though, to see middle-class, middle-aged women in a long-sleeve shirt and jeans getting a body scan and then a subsequent pat-down. What a waste of my tax dollars.

dantheman• 15 years ago

If I was a foreigner I would have stopped traveling in the US, as soon as they started rendition in 90s. It was only in the 00s that the fact of being a citizen didn't really protect us from the threat of being disappeared in the US. In my not so humble opinion it's a disgrace, and that it continues to persist is even worse - It shows that no matter who is in power, this lawlessness is tolerated.

marshray2• 15 years ago

The world interprets the US as damage and routes around it.

haploid2• 15 years ago

Right. That explains the infinite, insatiable lust for our Treasury bills, notes, and bonds.

Until I see the world protest US actions in the only way that matters( e.g. refusing to finance our government's activities ), I will continue to laugh off the "world hates the US" babble.

Stop buying our toilet paper and I'll take it seriously.

3pt14159• 15 years ago

It isn't insatiable by definition of a bid and an ask on the USD.

marshray2• 15 years ago

I will continue to laugh off the "world hates the US" babble.

No, my point was that the world is literally routing around the US.

ojbyrne• 15 years ago

I'm Canadian, so this will be a little Canadian centric.

1999: 1 US dollar = 1.57 Canadian dollar.

2011: 1 US dollar = 0.97 Canadian dollar.

Insatiable lust?

raganwald• 15 years ago

I see a flaw in your argument:

Drive down to the poorest section of your town. Do you see any pawn shops? Do you see any signs offering to buy dilapidated houses for cash? Do you see cash for gold signs? Do you see payday loan businesses? Do you see businesses that advance you money against your tax refund? Will someone give you a sub-prime loan to buy a house you can't afford? Is there a WalMart ready to sell you plastic junk?

I am not saying that the US is an economic slum. However, I offer this analogy to demonstrate that it is a logical fallacy to assume that just because people want to sell you stuff and loan you money, therefore your actions must be respected.

The world doesn't boycott doing business with you. So what? That doesn't automatically mean that it respects what you are doing, any more than a pawnshop owner loaning money in the slum respects his clientele.

p.s. Please don't take my response too personally, I'm reacting to the previous 999 times I've read it or variations of it as well.

p.p.s. FWIW, If I were to argue that the world still looks up to the US, I wouldn't use treasury bonds to bolster my argument, I'd use immigration. It's hard to argue with the hordes of people who pack up their lives and cross oceans to start fresh in the USA.

_b8r04• 15 years ago

When the world stops buying your toilet paper, as you so eloquently put, you won't have the opportunity to take it seriously. Your economy is predicated on people buying your toilet paper so your government overproduces it. If it all comes back to you, you'll be lucky if the US is doing any better than Zimbabwe a few years later.

acabal2• 15 years ago

I don't blame people for not wanting even a layover in the States. We've easily become the most unwelcoming (even to citizens!) and foreigner-hostile country around, short of some backwater dictatorship. Last time I flew back from LHR->ORD I was actually scared that I'd have to go through a body scanner after landing (this a few months back, after a news story of a citizen refusing a body scan at ORD after landing from an int'l flight).

samfoo4• 15 years ago

It's frustrating to read things like this. If you think the US is easily the most unwelcoming country even to citizens -- to be frank -- you just haven't been through that many countries.

Does flying through the US as the citizen of a non-waived-visa country suck? Yup. But it's not like the US is the only country that has these policies. The UK has a list of countries that require transit visas. The Schengen Zone has a list of countries that require transit visas. Russia does.

And to add further anecdotal fuel to the fire (and counter yours): As a US citizen the worst customs I've been through is far and away the UK.

MoreMoschops• 15 years ago

The U.S. does not have a list, though. The U.S. simply doesn't do sterile transit. That's (a large part of) the complaint.

zaius2• 15 years ago

Even when eligible for a visa waiver, the process sucks. You have to register with the ESTA 72 hours before flying. You have to leave North America within 3 months, so if you're transitting to Canada or Mexico, you have to get an actual visa, otherwise you're in violation of the visa waiver.

imajes• 15 years ago

Sam, as a British Citizen who has spent far too much time traveling through the UK border, and as a world traveller who's been through his fair share of borders, I'd agree that other countries are tricky, maybe even trickier.

However, I'd have to say that the most nerve-wracking insane experience is the US border. You cannot believe policies, as they are implemented in strange and weird ways, dependent on the officer you get to speak to.

Who are all armed. And trained in special-ops interrogation techniques.

I'd say Israel is on par with that, (though i haven't been through), however they fear daily attacks in Tel Aviv, so there's plenty to worry about.

The US Border - possibly the most trafficked today, is also the most hostile compared to what it _needs_ to be. It doesn't even matter if you are a visa waived traveller, you still go through the same crap as if you were on any other visa.

acabal2• 15 years ago

Check the website of my company, http://turkeysandwichindustries.com, for a map of places I've been. The past few years I've been living an expat traveler lifestyle.

Yes, other countries have visa requirements; I myself was bitten by the Schengen Zone requirement last time I was in Belgium and Germany. But the point is that I don't need to spend hundreds of dollars, navigate a series of confusing bureaucratic hurdles, and then have my body and bags x-rayed and the minutiae of my personal life cross-examined by high-school graduates on a power trip just to have a 4-hour layover in most other countries... unlike America.

To contrast this, the last international flight I took was entering Mexico last month (where I am now); the line was long, but I wasn't asked a single question before my passport was stamped. The 2nd to last international landing I had was in Belgium: I was asked the purpose of my visit and was waved along in 30 seconds.

The most complicated visa requirement I've run in to was Vietnam, which required a stamped visa to be processed before you crossed the border. Even then it was a matter of giving $25 to my travel agent along with a short customs-style form.

Yes you can say that, say, an Iraqi citizen will have a hard time getting in to any country, not just the US; but when we're talking people from England, Europe, China, hell, even Mexico and Canada--neighbors and close allies for generations--the process can still be harrowing. And that's not just unfriendly, it's damaging to relations in the long-term. 20-something backpackers who get hassled crossing into America today, or who choose to go to a different country for 6 months instead of face American border bureaucracy, will take those experiences with them when they enter industry and leadership positions in the future.

Edit: another anecdote--on entering New Zealand I was asked for proof of onward travel (as I later found out, a requirement to enter the country). I didn't have any; I had planned on staying a few months then carrying on to Australia when I felt like it. When I told the agent this, she laughed and waved me on. Can you imagine a US border agent doing that?

OstiaAntica• 15 years ago

As an American citizen I also avoid domestic air travel. The U.S. is becoming a bizarre, irrational police state-- we cannot even travel freely within our own borders without enduring unconstitutional searches that serve absolutely no security purpose.

_b8r04• 15 years ago

Interesting. As a Brit I generally don't have trouble at UK immigration, but being married to a Turk my wife did (before she became naturalised).

The big problem with UK immigration is that it seems to take the lead from the US. Unfortunately we end up with more theatre and less security as a result.

clu32• 15 years ago

I just recently ( 3 days ago) transitted through JFK airport, NY, to Haiti on a business trip. And it wasn't that bad. Even though the transit time was 12 hours, they gave me one month, until the end of March. Plus, I was allowed to go out of the airport during this period, which I didn't expect at all. So I got out of the airport and stayed in Comfort Inn for a night before going to Haiti

The only thing that pssed me off: I had to pay $5 for the trolley. No where in the world have i traveled (Britain, Finland, France, Australia, Singapore) where I have to pay for the trolley in side the airport!

andrewjshults• 15 years ago

At both JFK and EWR (Newark) the air trains are also the links out to NY/NJ mass transit (LIRR/Subway from JFK and NJT from EWR). I always thought/it's been my experience they were free for intra-terminal stops and you only had to pay if you were at an end that allowed outside access. It's basically their way of increasing the price of what would otherwise be a rather cheap trip on public transit (NY Penn Station to Newark Penn Station is about $5, but to the airport is $15 even though the added distance is negligible)

stevenbedrick• 15 years ago

I think the parent was referring to the baggage carts ("trolleys", in Queen's English) inside the terminal itself, not the train into town.

geoka92• 15 years ago

Imagine suddenly having to have a German transit visa to connect in Frankfurt. Or a Dutch visa to connect in Amsterdam. It seems ridiculous.

I was really surprised to learn that I'd need a transit visa to connect in the US.

jfoutz• 15 years ago

The situation in the article is embarrassing. On the flip side, the US is really big. 4 US states are larger than germany. Getting the visa sounds like a pain in the ass, but it's more like a visa for the EU, rather than member nations.

darklajid2• 15 years ago

cough The whole US of A has only less than 4 times the population (308,745,538) of Germany (81,757,600) according to Wikipedia..

Comparing USA and EU: The EU has 501,064,211 people, according to the same source. Like - 160% of the US. And, as others pointed out in this thread: Large parts of it are part of the Schengen treaty(?) and therefor rather easy for travellers.

I do think you oversimplicate things here..

ebiester• 15 years ago

Well, many tourists need a visa to connect via the UK. I avoid travel through Heathrow because of it. (No, not as a protest; I'm usually traveling with someone not covered by a reciprocal visa and it's just easier that way.)

eande• 15 years ago

Same here I avoid UK, Heathrow at any price as I had been stuck there and not only once.

Aramgutang• 15 years ago

Actually, the UK allows people of any nationality to enter the country for up to 24 hours for transit, including travel between airports, as long as you have evidence of your connecting flight and a visa for the country of your destination:

http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/en/howtoapply/infs/inf20transit#23...

Even though they say that entry is "at the Immigration Officer’s discretion and there is no guaranteed right of entry", I've used this concession twice (I'm a citizen of Armenia) with no problems, and have never heard of anyone being refused entry.

The first time I used the concession was when I was flying NYC -> Heathrow (arriving at 2am), followed by Gatwick -> Prague (departing at 10pm). Not only did this allow me to take advantage of a cheap EasyJet fare, but I managed to fit in a full day of sightseeing in London into the 24 hour allowance.

cperciva• 15 years ago

Did you mean need a visa, or are supposed to have a visa? I connected via Heathrow yesterday (arrived from Toronto, departed to Copenhagen) and while I had to go through airport security, I never went through customs/immigration.

vilhelm_s• 15 years ago

Apparently, that is already the case for certain countries:

> Citizens of the following countries are required to have airport transit visa when they are passing through the international transit area of airports in Germany: Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Ghana, India, Iran, Iraq, Jordan*, Lebanon, Myanmar/Burma, Nigeria, Pakistan, Somalia, Sri Lanka, Sudan, Syria and Turkey.

http://www.immihelp.com/visas/germanytransitvisa.html

viksit2• 15 years ago

Thats incorrect. As of Jan 30, 2011 there was no such requirement.

galadriel• 15 years ago

Ah, the joys that being born in right place brings for you. Anyways, that sort of stuff happens all over to million of people travelling everyday.

Let me recount my last year experience. My friend and I had to travel to Portugal for a summer intern from India. To keep transit headaches to minimum, I booked flights such that transits occur in Istanbul. No visa crap, just walk across to international transit and board the next flight. My friend on the other hand made a mistake to fly Lufthansa, and transit through Frankfurt.

Now, we were given a National Schengen Visa, one that was although granted under Schengen agreement, was valid only in Portugal and no other place. However, it allowed transit through other countries only while going to Portugal, and not while returning. Thus, my friend was detained in Frankfurt on his way back, searched and interrogated for 4 hours, and put on some Schengen no-fly list. OTOH, I walked like king in Turkey and enjoyed their hospitality.

So there you have it, all 1st world nations are assholes, including US, and I find it little hypocritical when somehow only US gets picked for it. I guess US is equal in discrimination of all people in transit.

gst• 15 years ago

On my last flight to the US British Airways at first didn't allow my friend to board the plane, because they told us that her name is on some watchlist. An airline employee then phoned ~30 minutes with the US department of Homeland Security and asked my friend lots of questions - and then finally allowed her to board. Needless to say that we nearly missed the flight.

I can fully understand anyone who wants to avoid having a transfer at an US airport. Why risk any of those problems when you can just transfer via another country?

iujyhfgtrtgyhju6• 15 years ago

You don't even need to land, flying from europe to Canada you need to not be on the US no fly list and have your details (credit card, phone number type of meal) sent to the US.

I think Greenland should retaliate with a $100 overflying charge

iujyhfgtrtgyhju6• 15 years ago

There was a British guy trapped in Toronto because he couldn't fly home to the UK after getting on the US no fly list.

His crime was having converted to Islam.

bigwally• 15 years ago

US airports aren't really fenced off by immigration. In fact the international and domestic components are mixed. Escape from an airport is easy in the US.

Once you leave an international flight you are herded straight to immigration for the fingerprinting.

iujyhfgtrtgyhju6• 15 years ago

Like the clever way that your baggage comes off a belt that is basically open to the street.

So while you spend 2hours getting through immigration your cases are just sitting there - if you are lucky there is a single old women supposedly checking baggage tags.

lutorm• 15 years ago

Actually, no. If you come off an international flight, your baggage needs to go through customs. You can't walk in from the street and take it.

pragmatic• 15 years ago

This submission illustrates the decline of HN.

- It invites a bunch of snarky comments. > The world interprets the US as damage and routes around it.

- No solutions to problems, just complaints.

- Is there a solution?

- Aren't these kind of submissions better left to Reddit?

phrotoma• 15 years ago

Without trying to be one of the snarky commenters, I would humbly suggest that the submitted link is one solution.

viksit2• 15 years ago

Were you really expecting a solution for this on HN?

kalleboo3• 15 years ago

I visit the Bay area yearly, and every time I make sure that my connection is in Europe and I never have to connect in the U.S. I've visited a ton of countries (including China), and the U.S. is definitely the most hostile to visit.

codenerdz• 15 years ago

Forgive my geographic ignorance, but why would you fly through the US to transit anywhere? US is between 2 vast oceans and I just cant fathom anyone flying let say from Europe to Asia over both atlantic and pacific or from asia back. Even flights from NorthWestern Europe(UK) to South america are shorter and faster through southern european connection. LHR-MAD-Brazil. I mean, look at British Airways route map: http://www.britishairways.com/travel/routemapsflash/public/e... Almost any destination in the world that is NOT the US is closer to other countries via routes that dont go over US as opposed to those that do go through the US. Im sure there are few exceptions, but still.

I dont disagree that not having separation between transit and exit terminal is the suck, but how much of a problem for people whose destination is not US is it?

WildUtah2• 15 years ago

Firstly, the Earth is a sphere, not a flat map projection like in your link. In order to fly the shortest straight distance over the curved surface of the Earth, Northern Hemisphere routes "bend" toward the poles on a flat map. The shortest routes to Central and South America from Asia or Europe often cross USA airspace or make connections in the USA.

Second, the USA is economically more influential than its mere land area indicates. There are a more big international airports located in the USA than in all of Latin America or Australia/Oceania. Flights often have connections through those USA airports instead of flying direct to smaller markets.

For example, there are exactly three flights between Asia and Latin America. A few times a week, Aeromexico flys between Mexico City and Narita, Japan (via Tiuana one way because of high/hot regulations). Similarly Emirates between Dubai and Sāo Paulo. And once a week there's an Aeromexico flight between Shanghai and Mexico City (also with high/hot limits).

Those flights can and do charge about $500-$700 extra per passenger for the luxury of avoiding the USA transit. The usual routings used by at least 10 times more passengers every day pass through US airports on those routes.

bootload• 15 years ago

"... Firstly, the Earth is a sphere, ..."

Technically it's what is called an "Geoid"[0] but for most purposes the description of an "oblate spheroid" [1] will do. Those "shortest straight distances" are called "great circles" or geodesic; an arc between two points on a spheroid also called a great distance. Technically, because the Earth isn't spheroidal but oblate, the shortest distance isn't quite a great circle. [2] The maps used for aeronautical navigation are "gnomonic" in projection to show great circles as straight lines. [3]

[0] http://www.kartografie.nl/geometrics/reference%20surfaces/re...

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oblate_spheroid

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_circle

[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnomonic_projection

aj700• 15 years ago

This is news?!

People fly from Britain to Australia all the time. They always try to go via Singapore, Hong Kong or Dubai. They always try to avoid LA.

I assumed Americans already knew they were being shunned. It's nothing to do with anti-Americanism. But, yes, "onerous" is right.

yardie• 15 years ago

To be pragmatic London to Sydney via SKG, DBX, or HKG is shorter than via LAX. And since it sits on the other side of the IDL you'd be flying for 2 days rather than 28 hours.

jemfinch• 15 years ago

I was somewhat disappointed this wasn't talking about network transit. That would have been especially interesting.

xiaoma2• 15 years ago

How is this news?

Avoiding a transit of the United States

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