Why I stopped travelling to the US and largely stopped doing business in the US

http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/fngfo/why_i_stopped_travelling_to_the_us_and_i_largely/

by asmosoinio • 15 years ago

267 186 15 years ago

danssig3• 15 years ago

I wonder how much longer it will take before americans get enough to take a stand about this. I suppose it would never reach critical mass with flying because not enough americans are flying to care, which is why I can't wait for TSA to follow through with their plan to set up their nonsense at bus stops and subways.

jbm• 15 years ago

When the nonsense is done at limo stands and private jets, you will see a change.

No politician is deaf to the voices of "the people", but it's a lot easier to get into speaking range when you can afford a professional lobby.

patio11• 15 years ago

It takes one phone call to speak to someone at your Congresscritter's office about this. They really do listen and, occasionally, even act on things which generate heat from constituents (ask any Republican who flipped on immigration circa 2007-2008). If you feel strongly about it, make the freaking call. (Or, better, write an honest-to-God on-dead-tree letter.)

johnb2• 15 years ago

Part of it is the motivation to return home. I'm Australian, and we've got a fairly intensive customs procedure, but I could care less, I'm an hour or less away from home now.

Visting America was a different story though: I'm getting fingerprinted, and people are jumping queues, and the security is crazy... and all I'm thinking is "Why did I bother?"

Waiting for americans to care enough about the discomfort of vistors (relative to motivation to be there) might take a while.

rdouble3• 15 years ago

I'm Australian, and we've got a fairly intensive customs procedure

Really? I brought a bunch of weird looking folding bike parts in a taped together laundry bag and got waved right though.

buro9• 15 years ago

Most Americans aren't seeing this stuff.

When I was married and my American wife got to join me in the queue I was in, and had to go through the same process that I went through. Well she was incredulous that she was being treated that way.

Until Americans actually experience this, nothing will be done about it.

I've considered that enough to think that a better way to approach it is to subject people to the kind of security that they subject others to. So that if Americans want to visit other countries that they are finger-printed, interrogated, X-Ray'd, delayed and otherwise harassed.

Then when they complain point out that what is being done to them is a reflection of what they do to others, that is the only thing I can imagine might make them consider changing their ways... and I really am not living in the kind of world where I think this is achievable since European border control isn't going to start implementing this stuff on a per nationality basis. So it's not as if I really think this is feasible.

As I've pointed out in the past, I also no longer go to the USA or do business there.

When I am forced to have face-to-face meetings with Americans, I force the venue to be in Canada at a location I can get a flight to that doesn't require going via the USA (tends to be Toronto as direct flights from London are cheap and frequent).

This works for me to the point that I no longer think about it until it appears like this on a forum and I remember that I don't go to the USA anymore... it's become subconscious. I just don't go to the USA because of the experience of doing so (not limited to border alone, but border is the initial impression and the worst).

GFischer• 15 years ago

"if Americans want to visit other countries that they are finger-printed, interrogated, X-Ray'd, delayed and otherwise harassed."

That's exactly what Brazil is doing and mentioned elsewhere in the comments:

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2234963

Lewisham2• 15 years ago

Most Americans aren't seeing this stuff.

You mean most foreign-travelling Americans, who are a minority in comparison to the Americans that don't have a passport, as only 37% hold one [1]. Domestic flights are way less of a pain than international, if only because you don't have to go through Customs.

[1] http://www.theexpeditioner.com/2010/02/17/how-many-americans...

EDIT: My American wife (I'm British) was the same way. I'm in the process of applying for a Green Card, which means we'll have to go to an INS office and both of us get our fingerprints taken. "Why the hell do they need my fingerprints? There's no way I'm giving them my fingerprints!" "Honey, they take my prints every time I come to the US."

gaius4• 15 years ago

Try Sea-Tac airport. 20 lanes at the border, 17 reserved for American citizens, of whom there are probably about 20 on a 400-seater plane.

I've traveled all over the world, US borders are the most unpleasant. I'v had border guards in FSRs point guns at me but hey, those guys are just doing their jobs. In the US they go out of their way to be rude, lazy, incompetent and just plain obnoxious.

jasonkester2• 15 years ago

Or PDX, where Immigrations was so hostile that demand dropped to zero on direct flights from Asia and the airlines had to pull the routes.

Evidently it was better to simply book your flight to SEA, wait for those 3 lanes, then catch a separate flight south to avoid the pain and suffering at the hands of the PDX border guards.

miked• 15 years ago

I'v had border guards in FSRs point guns at me but hey, those guys are just doing their jobs.

No one should ever, EVER, point a gun at someone unless they are prepared to shoot.

tallanvor4• 15 years ago

Basically that's the problem. It's estimated that there are somewhere between 3-7 million non-military Americans living overseas, but that's less than 3% of the population. If the US had senators and representatives dedicated to those people, we would have some clout, but because we still have to have "residency" in a specific state, we aren't really large enough to have much political clout.

Unfortunately most of the people who live in the US really don't understand the bullshit treatment that people get when entering the country. --It's not as bad for US citizens, but I still get questioned more coming into the US than any other country I've visited.

iwwr2• 15 years ago

It's not merely inconvenience at the border, but travel has become cost ineffective to him.

An expensive piece of kit lost that meant that I basically didn't make any money that month.

and

After 9/11 everyone is utterly paranoid and everyone from security guards to police, and even random passers-by, have hassled me. Claiming that I am breaking the law (I am not) or demanding I explain why I am taking pictures.

tintin• 15 years ago

"I usually have to spend a lot of time being interrogated for my lack of a huge suitcase" he is bothered at the border. He is talking about the whole experience not only about the cost.

wisty2• 15 years ago

NegativeK Insurance is for things that could destroy you if you didn't have it. Otherwise, by the law of averages, it's a waste of money.

Unfortunately, in the US, lots of things can destroy you: Lawsuits from car accidents, medical issues, not having a car, et cetera.

Nice comment.

jrockway• 15 years ago

By the law of averages, all insurance is a waste of money. Insurance companies make money. They do this by collecting more fees than they pay out. In aggregate, they win and you lose.

The real question to ask is, "can I afford this insurance" and "is it worth it to me". If you buy a $250 mp3 player and the "insurance" is $300 and lasts for 6 months, it's a waste of money, because you aren't going to break your mp3 player twice in 6 months. But if it's $20 to insure your $10,000 of camera equipment which has a replacement cost equal to a month of income, then you should probably go for it. It's a bad deal, but $20 is the cost of a few beers, which is also a bad deal.

Anyway, someone makes money on every transaction. That doesn't necessarily mean you shouldn't be a party to that transaction.

wisty2• 15 years ago

No, medical insurance isn't a waste, because the cost of not having it can be extremely high, not just in dollar terms.

Happiness (100% x losing $1000 + 1% x having a free necessary operation) > Happiness (1% x not being able to afford a necessary operation).

thailandstartup• 15 years ago

Insuring against small losses is a waste of money.

You've got to factor in the margin of the insurance company, but also the time and expense of claiming, keeping records, reading insurance terms, the potential for the claim not to be honoured etc. Better to self-insure - put that money aside into a fund and use that fund to cover your loses for small amounts.

For large losses that you may not have the capacity to cover, it is usually sensible. Where to draw the line depends on how deep your pockets are.

adrianscott• 15 years ago

If you're dealing with international travel, you have to read the fine print and be worried about jurisdictional issues, etc. and figure the bureaucracy risk in to your calculations...

e.g. you buy your insurance in France, problem happens in US, and it turns out your insurance only covers you in france. Or you need an apostille-authenticated copy of local police report, plus a certified translation, yadda yadda...

jranck• 15 years ago

"He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither."

Unfortunately I don't see this changing any time soon with the TSA unionizing.

paraschopra3• 15 years ago

I will tell another personal experience. I am based out of India and have been invited to speak at a conference in San Francisco. I applied for a business visa and was denied that visa because apparently I am young (23) and they have not heard about my startup (it is of course not an IT service giant like Infosys, TCS or Wipro) or conference (it's about A/B testing). Mind you: my startup is doing quite well financially and we pay regular taxes (had all relevant documents to prove it). Getting a simple business visa for US is so hard that from multiple sources I heard that founders of a lot of VC funded startups (with more than million $ in bank) in India many times don't get a US visa if they need to setup a sales team there or be there for some business purpose. Is doing business in US for foreign startups really this hard or I am an outlier?

It's, of course, frustrating and I don't know what to do about it.

kingsley_202• 15 years ago

You're just too much of a flight risk - they see you as having too little at stake in India. I've had some friends have similar issues (http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=851287). I myself returned to India after 8 years in the states partly because it was practically impossible to start my own business without a green card, aka 4 years of indentured servitude.

For future reference: Try to show assets you own (real estate, homes etc) that incentivize your return; Bring literature about your conference, maybe ads etc (they need to see that its purpose is not an immigration scam); if you're married or have kids, that helps a great deal. Good luck!

paraschopra3• 15 years ago

Thanks for your comment. I brought a lot of documents with me during visa interview but didn't they see a single document. It's true I am unmarried but getting married just to get a US visa is too much to ask for :)

hippich• 15 years ago

I am from Belarus. When I tried to apply for business visa to visit company doing me an offer, i was also denied. I had bunch of documents with me with assests, etc, but officer just took a look at application and refused issue of visa. So probably, from countries like mine if you are young and do not have kids, it's quite hard to get visa.

schintan• 15 years ago

My experiences have been as bad too..I am an Indian citizen and came to the US for graduate studies about 3 years back. Immediately after graduation,I was supposed to join a reputed company but due to some administrative glitch by the USCIS, it took me 6 months to get the required work authorization. I was barely able to convince the company to hold my job. Those were the most harrowing days. I came to India this December for vacation and my work visa application has been again kept on hold status since the past 2 months and I am struck here. I am again on the verge of losing my job. The worst part of all this is, the administration at no point does seem to care about letting people know what causes the hold up and the estimated time for it to get resolved. The lack of transperancy is so frustrating. Each day you just pray that you will get some update from them. And I am not alone, I know atleast 5-6 persons who have been held up for some reason or the other at this time. I really like life in the US and the opportunities it provides, but now I am seriously contemplating if all this is worth it.

cema5• 15 years ago

It is worth it. Good luck!

brown9-2• 15 years ago

Do you truly need a business visa just to enter the US in order to speak at a conference, for a visit likely lasting no more than a few days?

paraschopra3• 15 years ago

Yes. How else am I supposed to enter the US?

FraaJad• 15 years ago

The B-1 Visa is a Business and Pleasure visa.

http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_1262.html

learner4life• 15 years ago

The right way to go about it is get a good lawyer to represent you. It seems like an overkill but sounds like you can afford it. My valid visa case was rejected by INS and I was asked to go through a number of hoops because the lawyer had entered information in a different format. I changed lawyers and it made a sea of difference. Learnt the lesson that never skimp on lawyers. Try talking to Aron Finklestein or Alisa Klein at http://www.murthy.com/attprofi.html. They charge 200$ for a 20 min consult and will tell you what to do exactly. I was not sure if 20 mins would be enough to explain my complex case but 20 mins is all it took for them to come up with a strategy. Best of luck.

cema5• 15 years ago

Unfortunately, it appears that India is among the countries hit particularly hard. Anecdotally, it is noticeably harder for an Indian to get a US visa (business or visitor's) than an average foreigner (from a country where a US visa is required).

die_sekte4• 15 years ago

Anybody willing to share how Schengen/EU borders are for foreigners?

eoghan• 15 years ago

What exactly would you like to know? I've traveled to about 10 European countries. I've never been photographed, had my fingerprints taken, been interrogated about my intentions. But every time I visit the US, all of these things happen. I should note that I'm a European Union (EU) citizen which gives me the right to travel freely between countries in the EU. But my American friends have only ever been hassled when they broke the conditions of their holiday visas (e.g. overstayed their 90 days).

die_sekte4• 15 years ago

Well, I am an EU/Schengen citizen, and I would like to know what non-EU, non-Schengen citizens experience at the EU/Schengen borders.

xiaoma3• 15 years ago

It doesn't really mean much to me to hear that an EU citizen can travel through the EU with minimal hassle. Plenty of Americans have traveled to dozens of US states, some of which are larger than EU countries with minimal hassle, no fingerprints taken, no interrogations or passports required. About 10 years ago, Canadians could do the same with just a driver's licence (and it was reciprocal for US citizens visiting Canada).

On the other hand, EU visas can be very troublesome. I wouldn't recommend London as a photographer friendly place, either. Now, Hong Kong... that's a city/state/SAR with fantastically efficient and painless customs.

JonoW• 15 years ago

I'm a South African living in the UK, so I need Schengen visas when ever travelling to the EU. I have found the staff at the borders fine (have travelled to the EU about 10 times); I've never had any problems. Sure, they're not the friendliest, but I've never found a country that did have friendly border staff.

My issue with the Schengen scheme is the process of getting the visa itself. The requirements are a bit over the top, and it's expensive, think its's about £80 for a French Schengen.

estel2• 15 years ago

My understanding (though as an EU citizen) is that it varies ridiculously from country to country within Schengen. As much as I'd hate to revert to national stereotypes... they're likely accurate ^^

The UK, however, is pretty well known for being rather strict with immigration procedures and border controls.

ido• 15 years ago

I'm a non-EU citizen living in Austria for the past 6 years.

I travel extensively through the EU (probably cross an EU border at least 10 times/year on average) and never had any issues except for 1 time in Berlin where the immigration officer asked why I have been in the EU for so long.

I showed him my Austrian residency permit and he waived me through.

maxklein• 15 years ago

The EU borders are very professional and straightforward. They don't ask you personal questions or base any decisions on how you look.

rickmb• 15 years ago

Usually separate lanes for EU-citizens. In some countries, if those are empty, officers from those lanes may call you over even if you are not an EU citizen. If it's a passport they are familiair with and no visa is required, you basically get treated the same way as everybody else: a quick glance and off you go.

jasonkester2• 15 years ago

The EU is a dream compared to the US/UK.

My girlfriend is English and I'm American. For the first 3 years we were together, it was impossible for me to live in England or for her to live in the US. Instead we rented an apartment in Spain and lived there with never a word from EU immigrations about my coming or going.

Granted, getting a visa to live there legally as an American is next to impossible. But at least in Spain, they just plain never check.

Evgeny• 15 years ago

I am a USSR born Australian citizen (I have Russian and Australian citizenships)

Last year was the first time I traveled outside Australia since 2001, but my Australian passport was issued about 5 years ago. So there was not a single stamp in it.

On my way to Russia I had a stopover in Amsterdam for about 4 hours so I went out to have a walk around the city.

The customs officer had a look through my clean passport and asked "Travel much?". We had a laugh and in a few seconds I was in Amsterdam.

I flew to Madrid from St. Petersburg and then drove from Spain to southern France to Rome and flew back to St. Petersburg. Well, when you drive from one EU country to another there is technically a border but nowhere I was even stopped. In the airports they generally ask you to open your laptop but that's it. The most strict one was in Warsaw - I think I had to take my shoes off and place them on the conveyour. And you walk through a metal detector, but if you put your watch and wallet on the conveyour it generally doesn't detect anything, unless you have a huge belt buckle or something like that.

Well, with a Lybian or Iranian passport the experience could be quite different I assume ...

a-priori• 15 years ago

In my limited experience, painless. I'm Canadian, and I've been to Switzerland twice: first as a tourist, then on a work visa. Both times I entered the Schengen area via Charles de Gaulle, then flew to Geneva or Zurich respectively.

Both times my passport was checked in Paris... just a "what's the purpose of your visit", a look at the passport and visa, and a wave through. In Geneva, there was no border control (just a "go this way if you have anything to declare" or "go this way to the street" fork). In Zurich, there was another border guard; same deal as in Paris.

Ras_• 15 years ago

Fun fact: Finnish Frontier Guard is currently training their Turkish counterpart in border control / illegal immigrant prevention. I heard it yesterday in person from Finnish Minister of Interior. Geographically it makes no sense, but immigrants become everyone's problem after they reach any EU country.

I guess this means that Schengen countries have extensive cooperation and will adopt joint standards in time.

felipe3• 15 years ago

> I've been to Russia before the cold war ended. I've been all over the middle east. I've been to China. I've travelled all over Europe. I've been to Cuba and I've been to Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay, Nicaragua. What all of these places have in common is that going there was a far more pleasant experience than going to the US.

Oh, c'mon, this sounds very over-the-top. My experience is that TSA and USCIS (formerly INS) are very professional and follow a strict protocol. The protocol may be unfair or not, but that's the protocol, not the professional's fault. In places like Brazil your entire trip is at the hands of chance: Most times you get a nice officer, but sometimes not.

For example: After an incident involving an American in Brazil [1], all Americans were out of a sudden required by the Brazilian authorities to get pictures taken at the Brazilian customs. The situation got so ridiculous, that at some point the airports ended up with 3 lines: "Brazilian Citizens", "Foreigners", and "Americans". In other words, Americans were singled-out from the rest of the world. Would the OP describe that as a "pleasant experience"???

I have had somewhat bad experiences in the US too, but that's not even close to the kind of stuff I (or close family members and friends) went through in Brazil, or as a Brazilian in Europe. In the US I never had any trouble, and officers always acted professionally.

And I highly doubt this person would get compensated in any one of these countries.

[1] http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/americas/01/14/finger.gesture....

Disclaimer: I am a Brazilian naturalized American.

die_sekte4• 15 years ago

Brazil isn't part of the Visa Waiver program and felt that its citizens were being treated unreasonably. Thus, they began being rude to Americans. (IIRC)

Kind of an asshole move, but highly entertaining to watch from the outside.

ovi2563• 15 years ago

Brazil has a well-known tit-for-tat policy in foreign matters. They will apply to a country's citizens whatever policy that country applies to Brazilians. So Americans were singled out because they singled out Brazilians. It's called having balls.

davidw5• 15 years ago

> this sounds very over-the-top

It is from reddit, which pretty much thrives on over-the-top, especially if it's about how EEEEVIL the US is.

PakG1• 15 years ago

>> all Americans were out of a sudden required by the Brazilian authorities to get pictures taken at the Brazilian customs

I'm curious why this would be such a hassle. I work in China right now and every time I go through customs, there's a little web cam there that takes a photo of me while the customs officer looks at my passport and stamps it. I think both foreigners and citizens experience it. Adds no time to the process at all. I even see my photo on the computer screen if the screen is angled right.

Unless Brazil simply doesn't have the ability to set up this kind of tech....

felipe3• 15 years ago

I also live in China.

1. In China the system is set-up for that. The little web-cam and the system are integrated with a push of a button, and the process is very quick. In Brazil they didn't have anything. They were taking pictures with off-the-shelf digital cameras, and I read an article saying that they did not even have a system set-up to transfer the pictures out! It was really something implemented overnight, clearly just to piss people off.

2. Sorry if I was not clear, but my point about the hassle was not much the picture itself, but the fact that Americans were singled-out and placed on a different line. This is borderline racist IMO.

Note: Brazil eliminated this stupid policy a while ago. I mentioned it just as an example.

dalore3• 15 years ago

They have that webcam picture experience in the US too, at least for non-citizens.

OstiaAntica• 15 years ago

Don't accept the protocol! It is degrading, the scanners pose a health risk, and it is all a waste of money with no benefit to security. America spends several times more on TSA that the entire FBI counter-terrorism budget.

kingsley_202• 15 years ago

I think that's kind of the point. The unpleasantness is institutionalized in the US, whereas it's random/haphazard in most other places.

gst2• 15 years ago

"For example: After an incident involving an American in Brazil [1], all Americans were out of a sudden required by the Brazilian authorities to get pictures taken at the Brazilian customs. The situation got so ridiculous, that at some point the airports ended up with 3 lines: "Brazilian Citizens", "Foreigners", and "Americans". In other words, Americans were singled-out from the rest of the world. Would the OP describe that as a "pleasant experience"???"

Why should Brazil treat US citizens any different, than the US treats Brazilian citizens? If the US harasses Brazilian citizens with such procedures, it is IMO perfectly OK if Brazil does the same to US citizens.

pyre• 15 years ago

Why did this get upvoted? You're dodging the point of the comment. You're logic seems to be:

  Person1: Bad things are happening in the US
  Person2: Well, bad things are happening in Brazil too.
  Person3: But it's only fair for the Brazilians to do bad things
  because the US is already doing bad things.

The original article is griping about how bad things are travelling to the US, and how it's not that bad travelling anywhere else in the world. Someone countered with some examples of bad experiences travelling to Brazil, and then you responded saying that it's only fair for them to go tit-for-tat (which really has nothing to do with the original discussion).

dalore3• 15 years ago

I would say as a non-USA person travelling to other countries is quite pleasant vs going to the USA, his statement is not over the top.

I would the experience of a USA person travelling to other countries wouldn't be quite as pleasant as their is a lot of pent up rage against USA in other countries and when they get to meet a yank they have a chance to express it.

lemming2• 15 years ago

"In places like Brazil your entire trip is at the hands of chance: Most times you get a nice officer, but sometimes not."

In my experience, this exactly sums up travelling to the US.

ErrantX8• 15 years ago

I have to admit, as difficult as it is, he makes a good point here.

I'm nowhere near as well travelled, but we do a lot of work in the middle east (some of the nastier parts too), which is a place you would imagine a white westerner would count seriously against you.

But, frankly, I've never felt safer or more welcomed in my life (apart from the odd dicey moment).

OK, the US is not terrible, unsafe or specifically unfriendly. But there are little things; some cities I just didn't feel overly welcome because I wasn't American. I'm in my mid twenties and ordering a beer with a meal got me some highly suspicious looks! Numerous times I have been questioned by police; for being sat at a bus depot with a rucksack (they made me miss a bus and were utterly unapologetic, grr), for being stood on a street waiting for my pickup (for about 20 minutes.. I think someone had actually called them) etc.

Don't get me wrong; I've met loads of really awesome, friendly and welcoming Americans. And mostly it is fine. But more than any other place I have been to you get treated with suspicion.

arethuza2• 15 years ago

One of the more surreal conversations I've had while entering the US was one guy who wanted to know why I've been to Turkey/Egypt/Morocco so many times - he just seemed to refuse to believe me when I said that they are really nice places to go on holiday and that they are very common holiday destinations for Europeans. I actually had to explain what it is that I like about them!

Note - I'm from the UK.

[Edit: Note that I really enjoy visiting the US - the country is great, its just that the experience of getting in can be a bit odd, although I have to admit that the last few times were all perfectly pleasant].

ErrantX8• 15 years ago

The intriguing thing is that out of about 15 US trips only one had a bad border experience (and that was a work trip where we took our own equipment, which was understandable).

tallanvor4• 15 years ago

If it makes you feel any better, I get more questions from US border control than any other country I've visited, and I'm an American, so it's not just foreigners they treat like crap.

schwabacher2• 15 years ago

Just out of curiosity where are you from / what race are you?

ErrantX8• 15 years ago

British, White.

I'm not sure it is really related to that, my colleagues (a mix of Asian, Arab & British looking people) all have the same sort of experience.

I think it is a product of being a) foreign (in general) and b) young.

rdouble3• 15 years ago

Americans can be pretty suspicious of outsiders even if the outsiders are fellow Americans. Where I grew up, walking around town (instead of driving) or standing at the bus station meant you were at best are some sort of vaguely criminal transient.

toadi• 15 years ago

Sounds like the start of Rambo I movie ;)

nhangen2• 15 years ago

Have you ever been to Qatar? I'd have to disagree with you there.

artmageddon• 15 years ago

Purely curious, what was Qatar like?

ErrantX8• 15 years ago

Yep, I quite enjoyed it there. However, you do have to act appropriately to their (very different) customs or it gets awkward.

Helps if you are working there.

Maro• 15 years ago

It must be great to be able to afford to stop doing business in the US.

iwwr2• 15 years ago

The US just became unaffordable, it was probably not a choice on the OP.

estel2• 15 years ago

I'd imagine that a photographer doesn't have the time to require looking for clients across six continents.

sambeau2• 15 years ago

As a British person I find it sad (and slightly scary) that the best advice given to him is to start carrying a gun.

VMG• 15 years ago

Does he really have to own the gun or does he just have to declare his camera as a gun?

darklajid• 15 years ago

This. The GP got it wrong. The suggestion was to use something "sortof" gun-like to declare that the case contains a weapon, so that the TSA has to list (and treat) according to the rules for these things.

The one giving the advice said that he has a "starter pistol", which google explained as a gun that you use to start a race etc.. Not a real weapon. Others suggested a flare pistol (Dangerous? Sure. But not a 'weapon', but more a tool).

I find it sad that these workarounds seem to help and that they are deemed necessary. But "bring a gun" is not what they are suggesting here.

gritzko• 15 years ago

I am a Russian citizen living in EU. I generally avoid trips to US. BTW, me and some of my colleagues, postdocs or PhD students, had to go through the infamous TAL (technology alert list) checks. What it practically means: 1) you are a citizen of some US "enemy" country, like xUSSR, China, Brazil or, God forbid, Iran 2) you have a PhD in any engineering discipline (true for architects, computer scientists, chemists, physicists, etc) or you work towards your PhD 3) you are going to a conference in US Then they will do a mock background check for long enough to grant you a visa one day after the conference ends.

ilitirit2• 15 years ago

I refuse to travel to the US because of how much hassle is involved. I don't starting my trips off on a sour note. The UK is headed this way as well, mind you.

smiler• 15 years ago

Refuse? Refuse? You can fly to the US - some 4000 miles away in 7.5 hrs for the East Coast and 11 hours for the West coast. You then may have a little bit of a wait at immigration (or not as the case may be). I've gone through in 5 minutes and one time it was 45 minutes. Seeing as you state you're in the UK, you also eligible for the VWP which means you can travel to the US whenever you like.

Just consider what it was like to travel before the invention of the airplane, or the steam ship. Please appreciate that you live in a time when travelling the world is very very easy. And please watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r1CZTLk-Gk

ilitirit2• 15 years ago

I'm not in the UK, you just assumed that. I just said the UK is heading the same way. You have to undergo racial profiling, in your own country when applying for a visa for both the US and UK, and then you're subjected to "random" searches and interviews when you land there. This has happened on several occasions to a friend of mine. In fact, soon after 9/11 everyone in his family's US visas were mysteriously cancelled, presumably because his surname is "Hoosein". His sister had to leave the US where she had been working for years and reapply for another visa. She has to do this every year now. Last month, my friend's employer (Sky News) had to supply special documents to the UK government to prove that he was actually who he said he was, and even then they wouldn't give him a visa. We had to get in touch with the local foreign minister to get him a visa. The last time he was in the UK, he was detained for several hours (and nearly arrested without warrant under the Terrorist Act) because he dozed off in front of the Israeli check-in counter. These aren't isolated incidents.

So yes, I refuse.

frevd• 15 years ago

There is also a really interesting (scarifying-wise) discussion about apathy, existentialism and generally missing purpose in America's daily life, in the later comments to check out (scroll down 1/3, i.e. a mile).

I_get_stopped• 15 years ago

I am Indian and not muslim but "unfortunate" to have been born in the middle east. Everytime I visit the US, I have an intensive check, basically running all my finger prints through an extensive check. I have to swear what I saw is true (which I find awkward, raising my palm and repeating what they say). The officers take my wallet, go through all my credit cards, docs, etc. I have to wait for about 2 hours. I once missed my connection flight because of the long wait.

And what is crazier is that the same procedure repeats when I leave the US.

edw519• 15 years ago

everyone is utterly paranoid

Everyone?

I have bit my tongue for a long time about this great community's slipping quality, but honestly, how does shit like this make it to the top of Hacker News. Flagged.

Any suggestions for how to get back to having hacker news on Hacker News? (And please spare us the lame "situational logic" response of how <anyShit> is hacker news.)

sev• 15 years ago

By having a mental gauge of what's too subjective and not posting those, as well as not voting on, commenting on, etc?

Maybe there is some sort of algorithm that can be established to determine the level of subjectivity of an article or post with a 95% confidence interval?

fiaz• 15 years ago

Given that the US is largely considered the most entrepreneurial country in the world, I think this is relevant. A lot of people from other countries want to do business here, and this very well might be of concern to them.

This thread has sparked a large discussion and I think this is in line with the submission guidelines as being intellectually gratifying.

http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

tptacek10• 15 years ago

Wow are "intellectually gratifying" and "sparking a large discussion" ever not always the same thing.

e40• 15 years ago

Your are picking on the one time he goes hyperbolic. Overall, there are good points in the post, even if he does make that one statement that is obviously false. Just read it as "many" and move on.

davidw5• 15 years ago

Thank you for not only flagging it, but saying something. Supposedly that's against the guidelines, but if a community doesn't communicate in cases like these, how can the newcomers learn that articles like these are not hacker news.

One of my own guidelines for "not hacker news" is if it's an article that's designed to "raise hackles" in the sense of offending one's sense of justice or "how things ought to be". This clearly falls in that category. This isn't "intellectually gratifying", it's gratifying to your sense of righteousness / indignance. None of this stuff is at all new to anyone whose residence is not located under a rock.

Oh, also, as an aside:

> And please spare us the lame "situational logic" response of how <anyShit> is hacker news.

I think of that game as "7 degrees of hacker news". The more outlandish it is, the more 'fun'. For instance, an article about renaissance Italy could be hacker news, because Paul Graham has talked about the style of painting in that time period, and has compared painting to to hacking, and since Paul Graham is a hacker...voila`! Although, truth be told, that sort of subject matter might at least be interesting in the sense of telling me something I didn't know, rather than discussing current US politics.

cema5• 15 years ago

  that sort of subject matter might at least be interesting 
  in the sense of telling me something I didn't know, 
  rather than discussing current US politics

I am of two minds about it. Learning is important and essential to our profession. But does all kind of knowledge belong in HN? I would not say so. Where the borderline is I am not yet sure.

(Regarding politics, I would say whatever affects the professional life, scientific research, etc, is in; pure politics is out. But it's just a single person's opinion.)

bryanlarsen• 15 years ago

Working in the tech field often means travelling to the States. More importantly, since many hacker newsers are American, you should be aware that setting up shop in the States makes it more difficult for you to do business internationally, that travelling to visit clients/customers/suppliers is easier for you than it is for them to visit you. So yes, this is relevant.

And flagging an article because of a little easily recognized hyperbole?

tptacek10• 15 years ago

Thanks to this article, I now know that it is a gigantic pain to travel internationally with the US, that TSA agents are not good at their jobs, and that people get harassed for taking pictures sometimes. That's good because by trying very hard to express my frustration about these topics eloquently I am solving those problems. The Internet changes everything! Just ask Egypt.

groby_b• 15 years ago

Hm. Working in the tech field also means eating pretty much every day. I shall post cooking recipes....

gaius4• 15 years ago

Business travel to the US is extremely relevant for anyone working in hi-tech. Esp. when carrying expensive/electronic equipment.

nir4• 15 years ago

Yes, and what useful relevant information did you gather from this submission? That immigration officers are often incompetent? That once they damaged some guy's camera? Let me inform you further: the airplane food usually sucks and US time is, annoyingly, 6-8 hours behind central Europe.

tptacek10• 15 years ago

It's not just the off-topic stuff. It's groupthink. The needle on that has been buried for months now.

I'll give you a telling example: the insane series of threads where, in essence, an angry mob chased a comp-sci grad student around for nominating Wikipedia articles for deletion. "Here's the main offender!" "You're a drain on Wikipedia, a negative source of knowledge!" "You're an idiot!". An Internet-famous guy chimes in with a comment calling him "a gigantic Nazi asshole" (fun fact: this is after the guy took the time to sign up to talk to HN commenters).

Then HN dutifully mods up a blog post by the same guy that calls the guy out by name for "deciding he's the sole decider of the notability of programming languages". Nice.

Then a triumphal thread on a post about how the guy has stopped nominating articles for deletion on Wikipedia. The system works!

Why do I like this example? No politics. Still bad.

You can see the groupthink everywhere on the site, from the comment on any Amazon post that gets reflexively modded up for pointing out that Amazon removed Wikipedia content, or how Sony once installed a rootkit, or how IP laws are bad for America (I especially liked watching people downmod 'grellas trying to provide context and upmodding someone who, presumably, was not a startup lawyer).

wyclif3• 15 years ago

I like that example, too. Well stated. My observation was that the whole episode reeked of something you'd expect to play out on reddit, but not the old-school HN.

retube2• 15 years ago

Does the tech world live in an isolated bubbled insulated from the rest of society?

tptacek10• 15 years ago

Yes why should tech people be deprived of my cat pictures? My cat is delicious!

jdp236• 15 years ago

No, but a lot of people on Hacker News like to pretend it does and react badly when anybody presents them evidence to the contrary.

Luc3• 15 years ago

Band together (e.g. private mailing list) with like-minded people and upvote each other's submissions until the culture has changed.

EDIT: Hey, that's the only reasonable answer to the parent's question so far, as far as I can see. I don't like the idea either, but it's a reasonable idea, downvotes be damned!

tptacek10• 15 years ago

Why don't we just band together in a private mailing list and leave it at that? I'm pretty sure we'll lose the arms race on organized voting.

nir4• 15 years ago

>Any suggestions for how to get back to having hacker news on Hacker News?

I try to go to http://news.ycombinator.com/newest and upmod tech-related submissions once in a while. I should probably do it more often. Also, flagging stuff that could be on TV or Reddit.

iterationx• 15 years ago

Turn off rep score, then people won't post crap just to get upvoted.

poet• 15 years ago

I don't think there's anything to be done TBH. In previous discussions about the community's slipping quality I was always encouraged by the fact that submissions stayed approximately the same. That's not the case anymore. And what that means aside from less useful content is that a critical mass of news users and complacent old ones represent the majority on the site.

rue2• 15 years ago

I'm a permanent resident of the U.S., but even with the green card the hassles at the border are just nasty regardless of where I've been or for how long. The attitude is atrocious and I usually feel more like a criminal they've reluctantly had to let back in rather than welcomed back home. Green card holders also get fingerprinted and in some cases retina-scanned at re-entry. The nudie scans have only managed to create a small additional inconvenience for me…

rue2• 15 years ago

(And I'm a white guy from northern EU. My sympathies to those from more targeted regions or ethnicities.)

ugh• 15 years ago

On several occasions I've had expensive gear disappear from my carry-on during security checks and last year a TSA agent dropped my Canon 1D Mk3, smashing both the lens and the camera body. No apology, but more importantly: I was never compensated.

That can’t be, can it? Property damage is property damage. Shouldn’t the TSA have insurance anyway? Is he stretching the truth?

known• 15 years ago

Don't come to America. USA debt is $200 trillion. http://www.blacklistednews.com/?news_id=10626

Jakku• 15 years ago

I travel alot around the world. America is the only country where I am treated like shit when I go through the airport.

This time they took everything out of my bag. Spent ten minutes reading my diary! I mean what the fuck! Were aggressive, rude.

The system is an utter disgrace to foreigners. I wont be coming back.

sp_• 15 years ago

I always resented traveling to the US too because of border controls. Recently I moved to the US and felt relieved that I do not have to go through immigration there anymore. Seconds after that thought I had the epiphany that I now have to go through immigration whenever I am going anywhere else in the world.

The funny thing is that I have never had a bad experience with US immigration. The only time I had a non-smooth experience was in Canada, before a flight from Montreal to Atlanta. An officer waved me out of line saying "I'm sorry sir but you were selected for a random security check. You can thank Mr George W. Bush for that."

The two funniest experiences I had was when entering Dubai and Sao Paulo, In Sao Paulo the immigration officer did not speak a single word of English. I do not speak any Portuguese. We quickly realized this frustrating situation and I was waved through. In Dubai I was the first person in line at the customs and not knowing what to do I just kept walking. The customs people just stood there and looked at me. I was already quite far behind the customs people, nearly out of the airport, when I realized that I just walked past the customs officers without having my bags or anything checked. So I went the whole way back just to go through customs properly.

Why I stopped travelling to the US and largely stopped doing business in the US

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