Japan approves first human-animal embryo experiments

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-02275-3

by headalgorithm • 7 years ago

296 155 7 years ago

htor2• 7 years ago

grow human organs inside rats and? how does that work? i don't understand. meanwhile we are entering the sixt mass extinction event caused by a massive climate change. what good is this technology when you have failing crops, extreme weather, no electricity and mass immigration at your doorstep?

dekhn3• 7 years ago

it's fairly complicated but basically that's the magic of induced pluripotent stem cells. It's possible to turn human cells into cells that are prepared to become a specific organ, and then place them in an environment in which they will grow to that organ. This is because most of the necessary commands to differentiate and multiply cells into an organ are encoded in the genome and cellular state.

I think the wikipedia page helps understand this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_pluripotent_stem_cell although the part where you can actually make a rat/human hybrid is still undefined science.

La-ang2• 7 years ago

[This is because most of the necessary commands to differentiate and multiply cells into an organ are encoded in the genome and cellular state.]

algorias2• 7 years ago

Presumably, the eventual goal is to grow full-sized organs inside some larger animal. Then the organ can be harvested and transplanted to a human who needs it. Per my understanding, medicine does a lot of work with rats because they're cheap and easy to work with, so any new technology of this type would be tried on rats first.

By the way, my neutral explanation above doesn't mean that I approve of doing such things. Honestly, I'm quite torn about the issue.

toomuchtodo2• 7 years ago

Hopefully the use of animals for tissue incubation and harvesting is a bridge to a future when animals are no longer required for human tissue synthesis.

Artificial womb experiments are going well [1], as well as tissue synthesis for cultured meat (which is just animal muscle), so...maybe?

[1] https://www.theverge.com/2017/4/25/15421734/artificial-womb-...

tombert2• 7 years ago

I don't know about Japan, but in the US rats are also often used because they're basically the biggest mammal that has almost no regulation on what you do to them. Experimenting on, for example, a monkey might be closer to something human, but they're not legally classified as pests, so doing things with them requires a lot more paperwork and might not be approved.

Definitely not saying it shouldn't be that way; I'm kind of glad that we have some level of ethical rules for handling animals.

noir_lord• 7 years ago

I'm not remotely torn about it, taken to the finish, it's a human organ with my dna grown in a pig and then transplanted into me.

We already eat bacon and use large mammal heart valves in surgery.

I mean we wear the skin of cows, grease things with their rendered fat and use them for glue.

This seems like a strange point to be torn on.

mytailorisrich2• 7 years ago

For human organs the most likely host species is pig.

Pigs are big enough and apparently quite similar to us. And also the slaughter of hundreds of millions of them every year is already well accepted...

nothrabannosir2• 7 years ago

...and for something far less exalted than curing people of diabetes.

madez5• 7 years ago

And also the slaughter of hundreds of millions of them every year is already well accepted...

I hope this changes eventually. It is one of humans archaic traditions that is highly unethical.

uses• 7 years ago

This is a really basic appeal to worse problems fallacy. You also assume that the same resources used for this somehow take away from addressing climate change.

aldoushuxley001• 7 years ago

The current mass extinction event we're currently in has little to do with climate change, but a lot more to do with habitat destruction from industrial activities, pollution, deforestation, etc.

jessaustin2• 7 years ago

Humans love to blame problems on amorphous "others" in some other location, rather than the people right here who are acting selfishly right here.

htor2• 7 years ago

yes, i forgot to add "anthropogenic" to climate change. ie – this climate change is the direct result of human activity

diminoten3• 7 years ago

Is there this false notion floating out there somewhere that "science" is a universal resource and paying "science" to one thing inhibits our ability to understand another thing?

rc_kas• 7 years ago

Yeah America has all the moral debates about genetics and experiments with embryos. But the bottom line is other countries are going to move forward no matter what America does.

kldaace• 7 years ago

Assuming the Japanese don't have debates on bioethics.

Nice.

gridlockd3• 7 years ago

He didn't assume that. Also, you're making the internet a worse place by accusing him of doing that. You should feel bad.

dang3• 7 years ago

Don't be snarky.

Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

bcrosby95• 7 years ago

While I disagree with the US's stance, ignoring your morals because other countries are doing something would be a race to the bottom.

point78• 7 years ago

What if those morals are evil?

(Philosophical question I suppose)

sampo2• 7 years ago

ignoring your morals

If those morals say people should die instead of getting the organ transplants they need, maybe we are better off ignoring such morals.

curiousgal• 7 years ago

I wouldn't call morals things that change the moment a big company with deep pockets and suave lobbyists has a stake in changing them.

bluecalm2• 7 years ago

If significant % of the population doesn't think it's problematic it should be allowed as long as it doesn't influence lives of the other part. You can easily opt out of any stem cells based research or treatment, we can make it not state funded. Opposing that is the kind of self-righteous aggressive morality I despise. It's the same with abortion: about half the population thinks it's ok to let a woman decide. It doesn't influence you, your family or your community if you opt out. If you still think your feelings should dictate how others then you're the problem and the reason there are so many conflicts and so much violence caused by "I want to dictate how others live and I don't accept if they disagree".

manigandham• 7 years ago

Morals are subjective and personal. A country has ethics, but those are also a collective representation and open to change.

When it comes to biological sciences, we are on the forefront of some very big questions that do need consideration, especially because other populations (in advanced first-world countries) are deciding to move forward.

dexterdog• 7 years ago

And every person arguing this is going to use this tech to save their kid regardless of their current moral position

matz1• 7 years ago

Acknowledging they have different moral doesn't mean you have to agree with it. Just like them you should do what you think is right.

gridlockd3• 7 years ago

...other countries are going to move forward no matter what America does.

While that's their prerogative, the US could still enact trade sanctions.

On the other hand, DARPA is probably already working on the next generation of hybrid human/gorilla soldier.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19926701-000-blasts-f...

kube-system2• 7 years ago

According to the article, these experiments have already been done in the US before.

SiempreViernes• 7 years ago

Not these experiments, similar experiments.

dekhn3• 7 years ago

This isn't really a problem. America can just wait for somebody else to take the risk and show the benefit, and then popular opinion would change. And we have the back-bench to develop these technologies once somebody has shown it possible.

note that many parts of the US enthusiastically adopted stem cell technology (https://www.cirm.ca.gov/about-cirm/history) but unfortunately federal-level policies set by conservative leaders have ameliorated the ambitious plans of that project.

brightball• 7 years ago

Nobody was concerned about using stem cell technology or stem cell research.

The opposition was/is entirely to the death of embryos in order to obtain some stem cells for research. It's not as if it's some anti-science policy.

It's simply a continuation of anti-abortion politics, which a lot of people feel very strongly about and invokes a ton of ethical questions. As long as there can be a perception that someone was killed in order to provide the stem cells to save someone else, that's not going to go away.

Find ways to research stem cells without doing that and all of those concerns vanish.

thebeefytaco2• 7 years ago

Not necessarily - if enough countries have moral issues with experimentation on human embryos there could easily be substantial pushback through economic or physical means. Maybe they won't draw the line here, but there's definitely a line people have with human experimentation.

You're also making the assumption that this is moving "forward" and that there won't be ramifications outside of external influence by other countries.

diminoten3• 7 years ago

The problem with this is that America has a lot of money and brainpower behind it, so it sitting on the sideline inevitably slows down progress.

La-ang2• 7 years ago

[In 2017, Nakauchi and his colleagues reported the injection of mouse iPS cells into the embryo of a rat that was unable to produce a pancreas. The rat formed a pancreas made entirely of mouse cells. Nakauchi and his team transplanted that pancreas back into a mouse that had been engineered to have diabetes, The rat-produced organ was able to control blood sugar levels, effectively curing the mouse of diabetes1.] WOW :O

roywiggins• 7 years ago

A good day for diabetic mice!

streb-lo• 7 years ago

I mean, they are engineered to have diabetes, I don't know if they have much cause to celebrate.

ChuckMcM• 7 years ago

Was it the hitch hikers guide that said, "As a result of their time on Earth, mouse scientists had developed the means to cure all mouse diseases, allowing their civilization to survive in perpetuity."

gridlockd3• 7 years ago

Yes, it's pretty crazy how well this already works.

A toast to the manpig that shall grow my future replacement liver!

thebeefytaco2• 7 years ago

We must all stop manbearpig.

dang3• 7 years ago

Not here, please.

ETHisso20172• 7 years ago

I worry about allowing Japan, a country that has refused to fully own up to the biomedical atrocities it committed with Unit 731, to lead the way on these kinds of experiments. I would feel much more comfortable if there was international ethical oversight.

vorpalhex2• 7 years ago

1945 was a long time ago and a very different Japan... We don't still force Germany to have caps on its army.

ETHisso20172• 7 years ago

1945 was a long time ago and a very different Japan

Japan is currently sanctioning Samsung because it wants to avoid responsibility for WW2 sexual slavery.

sampo2• 7 years ago

We don't still force Germany to have caps on its army.

You pacified the German psyche so thoroughly that the Germans do it themselves now.

doersino• 7 years ago

Quite the opposite, in fact: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/26/ex-german-defense-chief-ques...

zyx321• 7 years ago

Except you literally do. 370,000 active personnel and not a single soul more, in accordance with the 2+4 treaty of 1990.

colechristensen• 7 years ago

It seems like every country is more or less guilty of the same.

madez5• 7 years ago

I worry about allowing Japan

It's not up to you.

sdinsn4• 7 years ago

I'm not sure why you got downvoted and flagged.

You are absolutely right; what Japan wants to do in their own country is their own decision.

lewaldman• 7 years ago

Why all comments are being down-voted?

(Personally... I think this tech is amazing and I can't wait for it to be available worldwide!)

CorruptedArc• 7 years ago

I've noticed that too. It seems like it is happening quiet a bit lately. Comments getting voted down out of no where for seemingly no reason.

enraged_camel• 7 years ago

Mods need to look into this trend and give us a report.

alexandercrohde• 7 years ago

You mean the South Park references that add no contribution to this scientific article? Or people broadcasting their moral opinions into the void?

I don't see any good comments downvoted.

theincredulousk2• 7 years ago

Yeah for example the super-profound and constructive top comment that just quotes the article and adds "WOW :O".

That's quality content, unlike a the South Park reference drawing a simile between serious research and the (humorously) exaggerated potential disasters of combining human DNA with other species.

Obviously the second was made by some common peasant lacking the intelligence to engage with the audience here. The first, clearly being the work of an intellectual powerhouse the likes of which we stand in awe of, has rightly collected the praise and votes they deserve.

not_a_cop75• 7 years ago

Finally, Japan can make good on the real life creations from their anime movies.

flyingfences• 7 years ago

Ed...ward...

buboard2• 7 years ago

Good for mice i guess. Bad for rats.

arcticbull• 7 years ago

Excellent analysis.

buboard2• 7 years ago

In my defense, it's not really my area.

fjcp4• 7 years ago

When I heard Alex Jones on Joe Rogan saying that there was human-animal experiments being made I thought he was exaggerating.

In my opinion this kind of research crosses some ethical lines that shouldn't be crossed. If one considers an embryo as an independent life, what species the embryo belongs to? Wouldn't be the ones in this experiment half humans with human rights? After all, the scientist doesn't know all, and the cells he put in could evolve to a chain reaction of the hybrid developing human conscious.

Just my opinion tho, as I know nothing about genetics and biology.

Bayart2• 7 years ago

Well, if you're allowing abortion on the basis that an embryo isn't human life, you're by extension allowing this.

fjcp4• 7 years ago

Right, that's what I am saying. If even that discussion isn't settled yet, we should be more careful and wait before mixing humans and animals.

pwinnski• 7 years ago

Just my opinion tho, as I know nothing about genetics and biology.

Arguments from ignorance are rarely helpful.

fjcp4• 7 years ago

I agree. But even the ignorant on the matter can raise relevant questions, more so when the subject cross boundaries on other less "restrict to the experts" topics, like ethics.

Communitivity• 7 years ago

I saw you had been downvoted and I upvoted you, despite disagreeing very strongly with your opinion, because you stated your opinion without vitriol and while I might disagree I'll still fight for your right to say it as long you do so in a way that isn't hurtful.

I think the line of inquiry into replacement organs can be researched ethically but the how of the research may cross ethical lines if not done carefully. Given diseases we have, I think we need to do the research and find an ethical way to make this kind of organ production happen, if we want to extend human lifespan.

fjcp4• 7 years ago

I knew I would be, but its fine. Thank you for your words! I share the same belief regarding freedom of speech.

About the research, I hope I am wrong and the advances that came out of it help save lives and extend the human life. I just wish they take those ethical questions in consideration too.

yread• 7 years ago

Human-animal experiments are done for quite some time. Cloned mice receive tumor grown on human derived tissue so-called xenografts. And it's immensely helpful in checking whether certain drugs work.

viach2• 7 years ago

I understand (and agree with) all these moral related questions and why so many downvotes in this topic. What is interesting, when one nation develops this tech and their people will live, say, 150 years, will these morals survive in other countries?

pgt• 7 years ago

Like iPhone manufacturing, the West will buy the finished product before it allows the experimentation under its roof.

viach2• 7 years ago

Might be. But it is quite different from iPhone manufacturing. It actually could more dangerous than nukes. West will just buy this you say, but why it is not possible now to just buy several intercontinental ballistic missiles? There are people with enough money and desire to buy this.

theincredulousk2• 7 years ago

man-bear-pig origin story confirmed

carapace• 7 years ago

It beats organlegging (which is a real thing now) but we should be able to regrow our own organs and limbs.

Becker, "The Body Electric" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Body_Electric_(book)

But then he died and most research dried up, but now there's Levin: https://ase.tufts.edu/biology/labs/levin/

asciimo2• 7 years ago

I hoped technology would reduce animal exploitation. It does in some areas, like cell farming to create food without animals. And synthetic models for pharmaceutical research. Maybe this branch of research can evolve to eliminate animals as well.

ganzuul2• 7 years ago

There will still exist a fascinating dichotomy, up until we can predict result without either simulation or animal models. An ideal engineered organism would be a delightfully weird homunculus, and a sufficiently advanced simulation could be deemed to be a living creature too.

Perhaps it is best to make sure that lab technicians feel a great deal of empathy for the animals they work with.

asciimo2• 7 years ago

Have to be careful, though. Too much empathy and you'll quit your job.

CodeCube• 7 years ago

Looks like we're moving in that direction for some things with organ on a chip systems: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ-on-a-chip

alexashka• 7 years ago

Technology may eventually help reduce humans who don't mind exploitation.

Beyond that, I'm afraid it'll be business as usual.

stefco_• 7 years ago

The sheer number of animals abused and killed for food [0][1] is 3 orders of magnitude larger than the number for research [2] (at least in USA). Animal research is more abstractly upsetting-sounding than killing animals for food (perhaps because we've been doing it for a briefer part of our species's existence), but the horrid conditions of most livestock raised for food in the US don't seem any better than those of lab animals; at least rats are anesthetized for the more gruesome experiments. There's also no clear reason to eat meat other than pleasure and food tradition, whereas animal medical experiments provide a unique means to massively improve our physical wellbeing.

I think that once we've reduced our meat consumption by 99.9%, then it might make some sense to spend energy coming up with alternatives to animal testing for medicine. For now, it's hard for me to see animal testing as the key bottleneck. If you profiled your code and found that one badly-implemented function was taking up 99.9% of your execution time, why would you ever waste any time optimizing the 0.1% function?

[0] https://www.nass.usda.gov/Publications/Todays_Reports/report...

[1] https://www.nass.usda.gov/Publications/Todays_Reports/report...

[2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK218261/

notadoc2• 7 years ago

Isn't it highly likely this is already being done by various other nations already in secret labs?

sebringj• 7 years ago

How does the human part affect cognition? A stem cell for example is before it "decides" to be a specific cell right? If that is the case in terms of embryo development, then how do they coax only specific cells in embryos to only express themselves in parts of the body excluding the brain. Complicated but I really am not understanding some basic principles here.

HeadsUpHigh• 7 years ago

Yes you are missing basic parts. There are certain genes that produce proteins that then bind to other control areas of the DNA that affect how much other genes are expressed. These last genes translate to proteins that make e.g. a pancreatic cell what it is. But this is a tree of increased specialization on which embryonic stem cells become e.g. blood stem cells which then specialize to rbc, white platelet producers.

puskavi• 7 years ago

As usual, Japan is ahead of things. Maybe in not-so-distant future we'll see human DNA modification. It's the only way towards, as devolution will dull us otherwise with all these bad, useless habits too available.

uhtred• 7 years ago

Poor rats. Poor mice.

tasubotadas• 7 years ago

The first thing that came to my mind was "Edward...".

valinsky• 7 years ago

Alex Jones Heavy Breathing

souldamnation• 7 years ago

These damn ethics committees are just slowing down much needed progress. Let's not pretend that DARPA and other black military scientific experimentation sites around the world have, and are, operating under the ethical radar and keeping their findings classified and to themselves and highly doubtful to the betterment of mankind. Let's just call a spade a spade and loosen the restrictions on the scientific community that actually operates with the public good in mind.

Robelius• 7 years ago

Let's move fast and break things, including our ethics.

Counties have done unethical experiments on humans before, and maybe they do it now. Why should we hold ourselves to a standard, if other groups do not? I couldn't possibly think of a reason why the scientific community would hold themselves accountable, rather than think they know best and act as if they were superior to the larger community they work to improve. I mean, that mindset has never gone wrong.

Personally, I like seeing a community doing some attempt at self regulation. Maybe it's not perfect, but it's better than nothing.

CamperBob2• 7 years ago

Let's move fast and break things, including our ethics.

Why not? That's how we got vaccines, isn't it? (Stated completely without any ironic intent.)

arpa2• 7 years ago

It's all fun and research until someone loses an eye though.

wetpaws• 7 years ago

A price for a progress

Japan approves first human-animal embryo experiments

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