About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-06-16/protests-swell-as-hong-kong-rejects-leader-s-compromise

by y2kenny • 7 years ago

508 221 7 years ago

bloomberg.com

ddingus• 7 years ago

It will be rough. China is unlikely to rest.

loyukfai10• 7 years ago

Yes, but she's probably too occupied at the moment to kick another honest's nest.

Also, HK can be a valve for the Chinese economy if the trade war continues to deteriorate.

The majority of the Chinese people have no idea what's happening in HK anyway, so it's not like HK will lead to troubles in other Chinese cities by itself, at least not in the short-term. So it is IMO wise for the Chinese government to leave HK alone for the time being.

hellofunk3• 7 years ago

That's incredible. That's about one or two people from every household participating. Democracy FTW.

SlowRobotAhead• 7 years ago

Democracy

Is it though? Or... Something closer to communism with a democracy wrapper over it.

The part I find most confusing is that Hong Kong believed China's word on separate laws separate courts. That was going to be the case until it wasn't convenient, which I suppose is now.

China didn't keep their word you say!? Whaa!?

ajdlinux• 7 years ago

Hong Kong believed China's word on separate laws separate courts

Plenty of Hong Kongers left before 1997 for this exact reason.

It wasn't a question about whether Hong Kong believed China's assurances - that decision was made in London, not Hong Kong.

kovek• 7 years ago

Is that around 2/7th of the population? What are some alternative systems to make the people have a stronger impact?

briandear4• 7 years ago

2/7th is huge. The Bolsheviks had a tiny, tiny percentage of the population and they took over Russia. Also 2/7 participation doesn’t mean 2/7th support. A lot of people might support the movement but are unwilling for various reasons to take to the streets. 2/7 is historic and huge.

loyukfai10• 7 years ago

The other 5/7 may watch TVB - a HK TV channel of which to many people is their only news source, and which has since been bought by mainlanders, just like many other media and publishing assets in HK - and believe in something totally else.

No joke, if you watch only TVB news, you will think the HK government is doing a great job and these protesters are arrogant, dis-obedient trouble-makers.

The gap in understanding can be really really big.

dymk3• 7 years ago

Every article I see about the HK protests makes sure to focus on how non-violent the gathering was. I see many people framing that non-violence as a better way to affect change in their government.

I sincerely hope that a non-violent protest gets these people the change they want, but I take real issue in framing violent protests as unnecessary when your historically oppressive government refuses to listen to the will of its people.

NotPaidToPost4• 7 years ago

The real bottom line here: As long as you can make it back to HK then you are above the law in Macau/mainland China/Taiwan.

That should be mentioned more often.

JumpCrisscross7• 7 years ago

As long as you can make it back to HK then you are above the law in Macau/mainland China/Taiwan

Not sure what’s going on with this account’s posting history. That said, this allegation is false.

Taiwan supports the protesters [1]. Taiwan and Hong Kong, both lawful jurisdictions, are free to enter into extradition agreements with each other. This extradition bill was a ham-fisted attempt by Beijing to subjugate Hong Kong. Ironically, in failing, it has shown Xi’s limited power [2].

[1] https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/taiwan-expresses...

[2] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/16/world/asia/hong-kong-xi-j...

chatmasta3• 7 years ago

Couldn’t you say the same about any pair of counties without an extradition treaty? If an American flees to Russia, he’s “above the law” in America, for example.

What makes HK so special that they must have an extradition treaty with China?

ralusek• 7 years ago

Hong Kong's government is historically not oppressive to its people. It's generally considered to be one of the most libertarian places on Earth. If they were to get violent against their oppressors, they'd be getting violent against mainland China. (They don't want to get violent against mainland China).

briandear4• 7 years ago

Violent protests brings out the tanks and people start dying literally in the streets. Unless you are talking about actual revolution, violent protest accomplishes nothing and results in losing the moral high ground which is critical if one is to have international support. Violent protest in Hong Kong would result in Beijing sending in soldiers to suppress the rebellion under the guise of “public safety.” You get martial law and its justified (using their calculus) as protecting people from harm from the violent protesters. Violent protest in China would result in thousands dead and Beijing accelerating the 2047 expiration of the two systems, one country agreement. Bad idea.

dymk3• 7 years ago

So if Beijing is just going to send military force if they perceive something that will truly threaten change in HK, but they did not send anything, what does that tell you about the probable outcome of these non-violent protests?

I think the protestors are fighting the good fight, but I'm not holding my breath that anything will actually come about because 2 million people stood in the street.

b_tterc_p2• 7 years ago

It would be a huge risk. China is on the ropes in the political theater. Sending military troops to put down civilians in a free trade capital of the world would not earn them any favors.

baybal24• 7 years ago

I doubt that any of this is even passes by Beijing strategic calculus.

Above protests being violent or non-violent, what concerns Beijing more is them keeping going for that long.

What Beijing truly fears the most is them made look powerless. Pretty much the sole point of propaganda in China is to instill the idea of the state being allpowerful, and omnipotent.

seanmcdirmid4• 7 years ago

China has learned a lot since 1989, not necessarily the best lessons, but they at least have a well trained non lethal anti riot force (part of the PAP) and wouldn’t resort to the PLA unless as a best last resort even in mainland cities. One of the tragedies of 1989 is that China basically had no non lethal anti riot capabilities.

anigbrowl5• 7 years ago

When a government deploys violence anyway people do have a right of self-defense. There's a broad spectrum of criminality from refusal to disperse following an order to do so, through interferences with public property like removal or deployment of barricades, through interference, confiscation or damage to vehicles, through direct physical confrontation which has its own escalatory tree.

Non-violence is a position but must have limits, otherwise you are demanding that people become punchbags of the state and preemptively invalidating all resistance against oppression, thereby amplifying the oppressor's narrative. A government in sufficient trouble will kill nonviolent people anyway and while it will lose moral legitimacy it is often willing to accept that as the price of strategic advantage, because the reality is that state actors can get away with killing people under many circumstances.

What we sometimes see (as here) is a triangle between government, capital, and people. Capital threatens to depart if government is overly aggressive and likes to pat itself on the back for its regulatory capability, but at the same time capital uses government to keep people subservient to those who control the wealth; one might say it's similar to fleecing sheep and aiming to slaughter as few and as humanely as possible. Large capital interests farm people within the legal and executive infrastructure of states for all practical purposes.

sremani• 7 years ago

Violent protests in this case directly play into the hands of CCP and gets you PLA with HK Police uniforms on the streets.

Also any change that comes through "gun" rarely turns into ballot friendly. Once armed the erst while "freedom" fighters will start fighting for their clan/class/tribe/interests.

alasdair_2• 7 years ago

Also any change that comes through "gun" rarely turns into ballot friendly

The IRA in Ireland used plenty of guns and it helped them win real political power in a ballot friendly way.

baybal24• 7 years ago

Do you understand that PLA can march into HK without any tricks, invariably of that?

I'd also mention that there were many times in the past when Beijing genuinely considered that option.

During yellow umbrella protests last year for examples, 3 regiments in Guandong province were not simply put into high readiness, but actually mobilised, i.e. troops issued ammo, and vehicles fuelled and armed.

I will not be surprised if a bigger operation is underway right now, and we simply don't know it. VPNs have been jammed 24/7 for more than a week, more intensively than even during 4.6 anniversary. New bootstrapping IP ranges are blocked within minutes on major VPNs. I've never ever seen it being so extreme ever.

b_tterc_p2• 7 years ago

Violent protests != violent coup

loyukfai10• 7 years ago

As others have pointed out, HK government is not historically oppressive, physically speaking. So if the protesters initiate violence without being provoked, mass opinions may change real quick.

IMO we better consider this on a case-by-case basis. If non-violent protests can and will work in more places in future, why not?

dymk3• 7 years ago

Like I said, I hope they work, but I see no reason for the HK government or Beijing to respect this, given there's no actual threat of the people protesting in a more forceful way.

seanmcdirmid4• 7 years ago

It got pretty bad in the late 60s, ironically with pro Mao demonstrators during the cultural revolution (which had some spill over into HK).

baby• 7 years ago

The point is that politicians always use the inevitable violence that arises when you have demonstrations to discredit the legitimity of the demonstration.

I'm French and politicians have become very very good at this.

seanmcdirmid4• 7 years ago

The American Revolution was basically a violent protest and is widely celebrated. One person’s terrorist is another’s freedom fighter.

tmp28462• 7 years ago

It’s a bit sad feeling like this level of participation would never happen in the US. I’m not sure what the reason is, but likely a mix of being a highly individualistic society, apathy, distraction.

JumpCrisscross7• 7 years ago

this level of participation would never happen in the US

It probably would. We just don’t have an issue that imminently and clearly threatens the wellbeing of 2/7ths of the population, and for which a simple solution (e.g. withdrawing a bill) presents itself.

When American cities get pissed off and form a consensus, they certainly turn out.

tmp28462• 7 years ago

I’m sure more than 2/7 of the population would argue the current president immediately threatens their wellbeing, but won’t demonstrate to show it.

booleandilemma• 7 years ago

What do you expect us to rally for? Genderless bathrooms?

laydn• 7 years ago

How about : "how come we have more than 500.000 people file for bankruptcy every year, due to medical bills?"

anigbrowl5• 7 years ago

We're killing people in concentration camps and the administration fairly wallows in corruption.

rgrieselhuber• 7 years ago

If you create an infinite array of dialectics, you can destroy all cohesiveness and ensure that the individual is the highest level of organization in society.

briandear4• 7 years ago

We aren’t being oppressed. If the US decided to suspend the first and second amendments, start soviet style “collectivization,” or other extreme attacks on freedom, Americans would take to the streets as well. The US, despite cynicism of a select few, still operates under a Constitution with reasonably well functioning institutions. If people want something in the US, there are elections with results that are respected (mostly.) Trump being elected, Ocasio-Cortez being elected — examples of elections that came from people being frustrated with whatever frustrates them. Obama’s election was the same way. Being a republic is messy and imperfect, but change can happen when enough people want it. We don’t have to riot in the streets because rarely is anything bad enough at an individual level to warrant such action.

xwdv• 7 years ago

I feel the opposite, I’m glad we don’t need these protests because the solution is to just go out and vote.

chongli2• 7 years ago

I wouldn't be so sure. If the entire US decided to gang up on one city, especially a city with a strong identity (New York or Boston) then you might see this.

Look at how New York responded after 9/11. Now put yourself in the shoes of the people of Hong Kong. When a group of people come to believe they are facing an existential threat, they respond in extraordinary ways.

shearskill• 7 years ago

The last massive protests that looked like this took place in multiple cities over several weeks. That was leading up to the Iraq war. They were ignored.

ww5203• 7 years ago

Because we can do it every 4 years while they have to bottle it up for a long time

swjz6• 7 years ago

They've made it. The Chief Executive apologized and the government has suspended the fugitive law amendment. That's really a RARE concession in these years because the Chinese government typically doesn't compromise at all under pressure.

tyrust• 7 years ago

This is mentioned in the article as not being good enough and is just postponing the issue. (I would post a quote, but the Bloomberg mobile site is not cooperating with me).

CydeWeys• 7 years ago

"Suspended" just means that it would be passed as soon as the protest pressure lets up. That's not good enough. They haven't made it yet.

trevyn• 7 years ago

They could start protesting for regime change in Beijing.

Being part of China goes both ways. :-)

hellofunk3• 7 years ago

According to the news, it’s unlikely that any progress on the bill will be made until next year, based on this protest. It is not just suspended, they also canceled further open discussions about it.

pishpash• 7 years ago

"Suspended" is a word to save face. Article 23 passage is also "suspended". For all practical purposes the bill's dead.

yingw787• 7 years ago

Yea no the HK govt needs to withdraw the bill and explicitly guarantee no extradition without conviction under HK law for people to feel safe. If China can extradite whoever they want from HK, HK has no sovereignty and no separate identity from China.

swjz6• 7 years ago

That's indeed true. But I see such suspension as a kind of signal that Beijing would like to compromise, which is nearly impossible. In practice, the "suspension" simply means that it's over because Beijing doesn't want to "lose face" and intentionally picked a moderate word to make both sides happy.

swjz6• 7 years ago

Note that the government statement says "There is no timetable for restarting the process." Even if the government had completely retracted the amendment, they could draft another amendment anytime anyway. That's why I think they've made it.

manigandham• 7 years ago

This is nothing but a temporary delay. It will still be passed soon enough. Remember Hong Kong is on a 50 year countdown anyway so there’s always an inevitable end coming.

aaron_m04• 7 years ago

Who knows what things will be like then? China could be a democracy or something else.

hellofunk3• 7 years ago

rolltiide• 7 years ago

Remember Hong Kong is on a 50 year countdown anyway so there’s always an inevitable end coming.

I used to think that and it is logical

But the basic law does not have an expiration date, only HK’s geographical status does

So it theoretically can still exist under a separate legal system , the point is that there are possibilities

JMTQp8lwXL3• 7 years ago

"The current social and economic systems in Hong Kong will remain unchanged, and so will the life-style. Rights and freedoms, including those of the person, of speech, of the press, of assembly, of association, of travel, of movement, of correspondence, of strike, of choice of occupation, of academic research and of religious belief will be ensured by law in the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region. Private property, ownership of enterprises, legitimate right of inheritance and foreign investment will be protected by law."

http://www.gov.cn/english/2007-06/14/content_649468.htm

China needs the West and it is politically unsavvy for China to renege on the rights granted before 2047. However, the British Foreign Office announced that Chinese officials now treat the Joint Declaration as "void".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-British_Joint_Declaration

hker9• 7 years ago

They've made it. The Chief Executive apologized and the government has suspended the fugitive law amendment. That's really a RARE concession in these years because the Chinese government typically doesn't compromise at all under pressure.

First, the government is suspending the law amendment, not retracting it. The law amendment could be revived in a month or two--that is, after enough leaders have been arrested and the protest cools down, just like how they cold-handled the Umbrella protest in 2014, or many other protests in China--for all we know now.

Second, the government is arresting people under the charge of "riot" [1]--despite HN'ers labeling such protest as non-violent, the charge of riot means a maximum term of 10 years--and they arrest people even by violating patients' privacy and eroding trust from patients to doctors [2]. If charged, some protesters have to pay a high price, joining others who have been paying the price due to Umbrella protest.

I would not say they have made it until the law is at least retracted.

[1] https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/06/13/hong-kong-protesters-c...

[2] https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/c0l9vl/hk_hospita...

swjz6• 7 years ago

I agree with you that the government should release all protesters arrested. I actually don't care about the difference between "suspension without timetable for restarting" and "retraction" because even if the government had completely retracted the amendment, they could draft another amendment anytime anyway.

anigbrowl5• 7 years ago

What is the situation with bail in HK? In the US authorities often settle for incremental policy creep while counting on using legal and medical expenses to wear down activists in addition to physical violence.

People stateside have been very impressed with action in HK, taking notes on topics from communications to practicalities like quick extinguishing of gas grenades. Here it's often difficult to achieve sufficient density due to geographic dispersion as well as different political conditions.

DiogenesKynikos6• 7 years ago

the Chinese government typically doesn't compromise at all under pressure.

This isn't the central government of China. The government in question is the government of the Hong Kong SAR.

swjz6• 7 years ago

Yeah, but obviously the Chief Executive simply takes Beijing's order for all such big movements.

loyukfai10• 7 years ago

which has been becoming more and more hardline since 1997. Besides, the HK government cannot act on her own on such big issues. It has to be consulted with the PRC government.

ww5203• 7 years ago

Not yet. She needs to take responsibility and step down.

djsumdog• 7 years ago

It's so silly Hong Kong is on its way back to China. I hope there is some future in them being an independent nation.

geophile• 7 years ago

How is it they are not fucked? No country that wants to continue to do business with China is going to back this uprising. Is there an imaginible sequence of events that doesn't result in either capitulation or a violent crushing of dissent?

devoply2• 7 years ago

US killed Huawei overnight, a world-class competitor which was basically beating US companies, using pretty shoddy justification. So I would not rule out no one can challenge China, China is not the US. And even if it were Vietnam still beat their ass.

cdmckay2• 7 years ago

Define “killed”. Huawei seems to be around last I checked.

not_a_moth• 7 years ago

Well, HK is the most powerful financial center in Asia, not to mention a recent UK colony. It has far more Western leverage against China than say Taiwan.

dharmab• 7 years ago

They're actually succeeding- the government has backed down and apologized. The protests are pushing on for the resignation of the Chief Executive.

Keep in mind this new extradition law also applied to foreign, non-HK/CN citizens visiting Hong Kong legally. Companies operating in HK _really_ did not want this bill, either,

JMTQp8lwXL3• 7 years ago

I don't think we can conclude the long-term intent from backing down now. It could be simply kicking the can down the road. Beijing might just be waiting to try this later. The longer they wait, though, the riskier it gets to push the Socialist system onto Hong Kong. It seems more and more citizens are willing to defend Democracy than has been the case in Hong Kong's past. If the numbers are correct, this is more protestors than the Umbrella movement.

sexy_seedbox• 7 years ago

Hong Kong is still a finance heavyweight and still a gateway to China for many. Many Chinese companies in the past few years have and prefer to list their IPOs in HK rather than elsewhere because of HK's stable economy and I'm sure they would like to keep it that way (for now).

ksec4• 7 years ago

I wish they could use the Official Figure as 2M and 1.

The 1 was tribute to the one died in protest of the bill [0]. R.I.P

And I don't think the photos aren't what 2M people in the City really looks like. Here are few better ones.

And thank you everyone who supported us, even if you are not in HK, it is still much appreciated.

[0] https://time.com/5607742/hong-kong-protester-dies-anti-extra...

[1] https://ibb.co/WtLMvCH

[2] https://ibb.co/BgQkb0S

[3] https://t.co/5NahUcGSKt

Lucadg• 7 years ago

Thank you. This is my new wallpaper now.

ksec4• 7 years ago

Sorry two of those were mirrored images, ( See the reply above ). My fault.

phyzome• 7 years ago

Your link [1] https://ibb.co/WtLMvCH is an altered image. See how it is mirrored horizontally?

ksec4• 7 years ago

This is my bad! I have been spreading fake images! Sorry that was sent to me via WhatsApp. ( But I can promise you the real thing would have look just as stunning ) Keep your attention to the Dropbox Folder.

blotter_paper• 7 years ago

What's going on with those first two images? The first one is clearly mirrored, though also placed a little off-center. Are these renders? A mashup of rendering and actual photos? Just photos with one mirror effect? I'm genuinely curious.

eqing• 7 years ago

People at both sides think they are legit.

An average HKer: I don't trust China's Justice system, which is heavily influenced by their government. I could be sent to China for made-up crime.

An average Chinese: Its a shame that HK as a part of China has Extradition treaties with all other countries but not Macau/Taiwan/Mainland (historical law by british). Imagine the same case for Hawaii and US Mainland.

cdmckay2• 7 years ago

Also, China has explicitly stated that want HK and Macau to join the same system as the rest of China.

It’s just a matter of time.

JumpCrisscross7• 7 years ago

It’s just a matter of time

Well, yes. The handover is explicit in 2047. This whole mess was an avoidable miscalculation prioritising Xi’s short-term political interests over China’s long-term strategic wellbeing.

learc83• 7 years ago

Hawaii isn't an appropriate equivalent. Puerto Rico or American Somoa are closer but still not close enough to make the analogy work.

hker9• 7 years ago

Thanks for letting us know how you think.

As with other legislation, the devil is in the detail.

An average Chinese: Its a shame that HK as a part of China has Extradition treaties with all other countries but not Macau/Taiwan/Mainland (historical law by british).

Such simplification--Hong Kong has Extradition treaties with all other countries but not China--is not useful in understanding laws.

I would cite below a point made by Leung Kai Chi (in Chinese [1], Question 6 there), translation mine (+ Google Translate):

6. But some Western democracies will also sign a transfer agreement with the Chinese government? > Yes, but the situation in Hong Kong is different. First, when other countries and the Chinese government sign a transfer agreement, they generally stipulate that they will not be transferring to their nationals. However, under the Hong Kong Ordinance, both residents who are born and raised in Hong Kong, or those who only transfer at the Hong Kong airport, can be detained and handed over. Second, democratic countries have election supervision. If the government misuses the handover procedure, it will be punished by the voters. The chief executive of Hong Kong is appointed by the central government. Even if the transfer procedure is misused, it is difficult to open up the responsibility. Thirdly, precisely because the Chief Executive of Hong Kong is appointed by the Central Government, the handover arrangements in Hong Kong cannot be compared with other places. Leaders of other countries can independently assess whether a suspect should be handed over to mainland China. The Chief Executive of Hong Kong is responsible to the Central Government in accordance with the Basic Law and cannot make independent decisions. Under the framework of this system, all administrative examinations under the responsibility of the Chief Executive are tantamount to a false statement.

[1] https://medium.com/@leungkaichihk/%E5%8F%8D%E9%80%81%E4%B8%A...

The whole article (in Chinese) is worth a read.

ww5203• 7 years ago

I actually read a comment written by a mainland Chinese to his fellow Chinese, "How many of you truly trust the justice system inside the country? We've suffered under it enough already. Why subject others under it?" It was highly liked.

ysleepy• 7 years ago

China has a 99.9% conviction rate in court. So either they are almost infallible or trust in the justice system is not warranted at all.

potatofarmer45• 7 years ago

So my HK team had the week off to protest. Luckily I didn't get any calls at 2am to bail anyone out of jail.

This result- where the government backed down, was not expected by anyone. Ever since the Beijing-picked government stared down the Umbrella Protests in 2014, it's been a death by a thousand cuts to Hong Kong's autonomy.

After talking to a friend who works for one of the pro-Beijing parties, it turns out the biggest fear for the Chinese authorities wasn't related to HK at all, but Taiwan. China has spent so much resources to promote friendly candidates for office in Taiwan and this HK debacle has instead emboldened the incumbent president of Taiwan, who is not at all friendly towards Beijing. In fact, she won her party primary and is now well positioned for the elections next year. As it turns out, as important as HK is, Taiwan is more important to Beijing and anything that provides fodder for Taiwan's independence leaning party is not allowed.

loyukfai10• 7 years ago

The damage is done. It will take quite some time for the opinions of the Taiwanese people to change again, if ever.

JumpCrisscross7• 7 years ago

We’re used to Beijing thinking for the long term. When they rotated leaders, this was largely true. With Xi as leader for life, however, the short-term decision making and incompetent bureaucracies that characterises dictatorships are beginning to emerge.

Hong Kong shouldn’t have been a problem. Most Hong Kongers, until recently, identified as Chinese moreso than Hong Konger. The transition in 2047 would have been uneventful.

Now, Hong Kong pissed off. Taiwan has seen the writing on the wall. China’s multi-decade integration strategy must be rethought because Xi didn’t think he could survive Hong Kongers criticising his leadership (including its corruption).

baybal24• 7 years ago

Yep, pretty much it.

Saying the way HN readers can understand, the fear of Beijing is nor "people hearing" as much as "people talking"

Just every political commotion starts with people coming and talking with each other, forming groups, and confirming their views and positions, and not simply passively receiving information.

Central Propaganda Department works a lot to prevent negative sentiments from becoming rallying points for political opposition exactly for the reason above.

guilhas6• 7 years ago

Some notes

* French yellow vests are ignored week after week. This is all over the place.

* HK already has extradiction with the USA.

* USA debacle demanding a journalist extradition to prosecute.

* Protesters posters are in english.

* Mainstream narrative, small HK will be successful independent. UK brexit will be terrible because it will be a insignificant country.

digianarchist• 7 years ago

Chinese and English are both official languages of Hong Kong under the Hong Kong Basic Law (article 9) and the Official Languages Ordinance (chapter 5 of the Laws of Hong Kong).

guilhas6• 7 years ago

But are they protesting for the Chinese to listen or the English?

ksec4• 7 years ago

Let's be fair, Yellow Vest has been going on for months. And France has a democratic system in place. Use it!

* Protesters posters are in english.

There are just far too many Chinese Poster you don't get to see.

riffraff2• 7 years ago

Also, yellow vests protests at the top were less than 200k people, in a country of tens of millions.

The only reason they made the news is because protests were violent.

loyukfai10• 7 years ago

The majority of the posters are in Chinese.

https://www.inmediahk.net/node/1064900

https://news.rthk.hk/rthk/ch/component/k2/1463276-20190617.h...

https://thestandnews.com/

https://www.hkcnews.com/article/21374/616%E5%A4%A7%E9%81%8A%...

elefanten• 7 years ago

This is a very solid round-up of what faceless accounts have been spamming all over Twitter since this story emerged.

These arguments are weak enough to strain credulity. Almost all of them can be answered by saying "the context is very different"

1. Yellow Vests - no overlap in what is being protested. Dissatisfaction with policy vs dissatisfaction with fundamental political rights = very different context.

2. Extradition with rule of law abiding country that isn't explicitly trying to silence your dissidents = very different context.

3. Assange situation is complex and one-off, and the charges are more complicated than just reporting on stuff. It is also being openly discussed, scrutinized and will be prosecuted openly in a legal system. What routinely happens with dissidents and party critics extradited to China is very different.

4. HK was under British rule for a long time and there is a large English-speaking base.

5. Narrative about HK has to do with categorically different political / economic freedoms than the mainland. There's subtlety beyond a comparison like "what will be the bigger GDP"

DiogenesKynikos6• 7 years ago

The "Assange situation" is not complex, and it's not one-off. He published numerous secret documents that were deeply embarrassing to the governments of the United States, United Kingdom, and many other countries. He is being targeted for entirely political reasons, and the cooperation of the British and Ecuadorian authorities is likewise politically motivated. In the case of Britain, the motivation is twofold. Assange released documents about the UK government's actions, and the government wants to maintain good relations with the United States. In the case of Ecuador, the motivation is better relations with the United States and access to IMF loans.

The persecution of Assange is not one-off, because it sets a precedent for future prosecution of journalists in the United States, and it establishes that journalists are in danger in any country that has an extradition agreement with the United States.

Given all the concern about the Hong Kong extradition law being used to target critics of the Chinese government, I would expect the same people who oppose the HK law to also vigorously defend Julian Assange against extradition to the United States for political crimes.

guilhas6• 7 years ago

Those were not arguments, it is what I see and might consider fact. That I would like people to give their opinions or just think about it.

USA is law abiding? It is the country with more prisoners global and per capita. Doesn’t look good. And Guantanamo? Patriot act? Also not when bombing other countries. They have shown more than once USA powerful are above the law.

Perhaps they should not accept extradition to China and also rescind to USA.

pimmen6• 7 years ago

France has a democratic system, Hong Kong has no democratic way to get rid of Lam.

USA has due process, the right to council and many other fundamental human rights.

Most of the posters are in Chinese.

Brexit will be worse for the UK economically, leaving China would be good for HK democratically. And, also, the UK has an enshrined right to leave thanks to article 50, HK does not have that right at all.

markdown4• 7 years ago

USA has due process, the right to council and many other fundamental human rights.

Surely you jest. USA practices extraordinary rendition, torture, and assassination of their own citizens without trial.

guilhas6• 7 years ago

UK people also have no democratic process to get rid of appointed EU leaders and bureaucrats. And even leaving the entire thing is being difficult.

USA is the country with more incarcerated people globally and per capita. (possibly unfairly?)

The posters are possibly most in Chinese. Maybe it was the selection from western sources. Although there is a very big amount in English.

throwaway1997• 7 years ago

Most of the signs were in either Chinese or bilingual (English on one side, Chinese on the other). Because we are a bilingual city but also so that western media could understand what we are protesting about.

Obviously the western media used photos of protestors displaying the English side because it's easier and more convenient to explain

pimmen6• 7 years ago

I live on the other side of the world, but this still strikes a deep chord with me.

I'm Swedish, born and raised in Gothenburg. After the Umbrella protests in 2014 five people connected to the Causeway Bay Books store in Hong Kong disappeared. One of them is a naturalized Swedish citizen, his daughter was raised in my home town. He is now imprisoned and can't communicate with his daughter, or with the Swedish authorities. Angela Gui, his daughter, is continuing on the struggle for his release to the extent she can, being only 21 when her father disappeared.

All these arguments about "leave China be" or "this isn't the West's problem" just don't make any sense to me. This is a small world, whether we like it or not, and letting authoritarian stuff like this extradition treaty to a dictatorship slide is condoning it and before you know it your citizenship, constitutional rights and passport which you thought would keep you safe doesn't work anymore and you get snatched from a street for something you've said. Your family can only cry themselves to sleep over it from the feeling of powerlessness.

We don't have to go into hypotheticals about what will happen if China gets more power to persecute people of Hong Kong. In Sweden, we already know what they've done with the limited power they hold now.

hker9• 7 years ago

We, people from Hong Kong, appreciate your view a lot.

Your view is particularly relevant to the current protest on anti-extraditions law: the focus is on what if more people will be transferred to China when CCP does not like what you have done outside of China.

Without the extraditions law, CCP has to go into great length to abduct others into China--for the case of the five missing book publishers (including a Swedish national) [1] who did not violate any law in Hong Kong or elsewhere (ignoring some made-up non-sense of drink-drive accidents), likely CCP used secret agents reaching as far as Thailand, because there were no travel documents necessary to have the five people crossing the border through legal channels.

But once the extraditions law is passed, China can use Hong Kong to bring people into China, regardless of their nationality, and foreigners merely transiting in Hong Kong could be arrested and then extradited into China.

The results weren't pretty. The Swedish national, Gui Minhai, in this case were forced to made a "confession" on CCTV for his "crime", in addition to losing his freedom [1].

China has shown repeatedly that they could retaliate by charging foreigners. What follows the Huawei incident is a recent example.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books_disappearan...

markdown4• 7 years ago

This is a small world, whether we like it or not, and letting authoritarian stuff like this extradition treaty to a dictatorship slide

A while ago a plane arrived in Fiji half-filled with Chinese police officers. They arrested 77 supposedly Chinese nationals, put them on the plane, and took them back to China. This was all extra-judicial. None of the 77 were arrested, charged, or convicted by the Fijian justice system. It's unknown who the 77 are, but the Chinese claim they were involved in an online fraud ring.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-08/chinese-suspects-depo...

powerapple2• 7 years ago

As a Chinese I think the Chinese police officers are doing a great job.

XuMiao2• 7 years ago

CCP does have a lot of room to improve in protecting human rights. But to be fair, for the matter of national security, every country takes the extreme measure. Look at the Assange case. Neither Swedish nor US government makes any sense to me.

wyuenho2• 7 years ago

Assange will get a fair trial, does the PRC know what a fair trial is?

nialv7• 7 years ago

The fact that some other country also did this terrible thing doesn't make doing it less terrible.

taiwanboy4• 7 years ago

I am proud of our democratic cousins in Hong Kong; this is just the beginning. Who knows what kind of country China will be in 2047, maybe there is hope for democratic China or 50 more years of democratic Hong Kong, who knows.

As for Taiwan, Taiwanese people already identify themselves with being Taiwanese. Nearly 80% of people polled identify themselves in fact, in recent polls. Now we just need the older generations to slowly fade away (ones that still watch China influenced news channels). The fact that president Tsai (who is close to our US allies) won her party election recently and has a 10% lead over her opposite party opponents (who are now distancing themselves from China) give us great hope. Our independence is going to continue.

As for the naysayers that say China can simply invade, I beg to differ. China was always going to have problems attacking a well fortified island. But an old, broke China with no allies in the region attacking Taiwan with US backing it is impossible. And as time goes on, Taiwan will eventually declare independence and have the world support for it. That’s the future I am looking forward to

nojvek• 7 years ago

I really look forward to Taiwan as its own independent country like Singapore.

hker9• 7 years ago

I think the South East Asia region will be more stable if Taiwan, a democratic nation, rises in power and gets less influenced by CCP, whose legitimacy depends largely on fast GDP growth, which is increasingly impossible in this age of excess production and currently is done only with unsustainable credit expansion. Recently Xi is switching the legitimacy from fast GDP growth to revival nationalism--the so called Chinese dream [1]--but such aggression is also destablizing to the region.

Some coordinated efforts in the free world to raise Taiwan would help, but at least Taiwan is gaining a little bit from the recent trade tariffs [2].

[1] https://www.eurasiareview.com/08122018-the-contours-of-xis-c...

[2] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-06-03/vietnam-t...

whoevercares3• 7 years ago

I doubt Mainland government will allow a “eventually” Taiwan independence because it hurts the legitimacy of CCP(on the MAINLAND!), which will have a cascading effect.

taiwanboy4• 7 years ago

Not sure what your point is, CCPs legitimacy just crashed when Carrie Lam, a puppet of CCP, just bowed to the pressure of 2M protestors in Hong Kong.

hungrygs• 7 years ago

I'm quite sure Taiwan will last longer than the CCP in Beijing. The end game is PRC becomes democratic eventually and then Taiwan can "unify" - meaning, China becomes a federal republic with Taiwan as one of the states/provinces. People thought the Soviet Union would last forever and then, almost overnight, it was gone.

29athrowaway2• 7 years ago

The PLA is not China's army, it is the Chinese communist party's army.

PLA training is 90% political indoctrination, 10% combat training.

They have garrisons in Hong Kong (edited).

Unless the Chinese communist party self-destructs, there's no foreseeable end of communist rule in China.

The social credit system and online censors prevent people from criticizing and opposing the government.

remarkEon• 7 years ago

Source on this?

kposehn• 7 years ago

They have garrisons in Taipei

Source please

NotSammyHagar• 7 years ago

I don't think they have garrisons in Taipei. Please explain what you mean?

brainpool• 7 years ago

Sorry, but China could invade Taiwan by breakfast and be done by lunch if it was so influens. The only reason it has not happened already has very little with Taiwan to do and more with geopolitical issues and Chinas dependency on oil.

yissachar• 7 years ago

This article disagrees with you:

https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/09/25/taiwan-can-win-a-war-wi...

Both Westerners and Taiwanese should be more optimistic about the defense of Taiwan than is now normal.
Yes, the Taiwanese Army projects that it can only hold off its enemy for two weeks after the landing—but the PLA also believes that if it cannot defeat the Taiwanese forces in under two weeks, it will lose the war!

hker9• 7 years ago

https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/ has lots of videos of the events today, for those who want more than static photos.

canada_dry• 7 years ago

Good timeline with pics here:

https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3014695...

switch007• 7 years ago

2M is ~27% of its population. Mind blowing if 2M is roughly correct.

peter303• 7 years ago

Justa matter of time before Beijing use Tiananmen force to quell these protesters. Done so multiple other places like Xinjiang and Xizang.

yumraj• 7 years ago

Hopefully the common folks in mainland China are watching, and is not censored, and take inspiration from HK folks in marching and fighting for their human rights.

hker9• 7 years ago

To give due credits, the Hong Kong people put great effort to ensure that the protests--both the Umbrella protest in 2014 and the anti-extradition protest in 2019--are peaceful, largely because they don't want to turn Victorial Park into another Tiananmen Square--there are 6000 PLA troops stationed in Hong Kong, and they will come out once the Hong Kong police loses control of the situation.

Hong Kong people learned from mainland China first. I do hope that one day mainland China could learn back, when the time calls for it.

Okay, as for the bit on cleaning trashes [1], we don't learn it from China, we learn it from Japan (for example [2]). Well, we all have something to learn from each other.

[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/c18ybh/protester_...

[2] https://nextshark.com/japanese-world-cup-fans-clean-stadium-...

confusedhnguy5• 7 years ago

While I agree with your other words, is the last paragraph really necessary? If you want us mainlanders to trust you, it is advisable to not praise Japan when it is not directly related to the conversation.

Mainlanders are also perfectly capable of doing it, although we are not doing as good as we can.

https://www.chinasmack.com/chinese-football-fans-pick-up-tra...

Downvote me all you want, I still support your democratic movements. But if you truly want mainlander to hear your voice, talking about how good Japan is is counterproductive.

If you want to make friends with the victims, it is not a good idea to talk about how morally superior the criminals are. Please explain why are you down-voting this. I changed my mind seeing your previous posts, and I may change again if you can point out my mistake.

the_resistence• 7 years ago

Anyone who gets a glimpse of images but not the real story is being told it is a festive parade, kid you not.

chaz6• 7 years ago

I strongly believe that the people of Hong Kong should have the right to self-determinism. There is nobody alive who has lived under Chinese rule in Hong Kong. For reference, I am British. I hope that someday Hong Kong can be recognized as a country in its own right.

macspoofing• 7 years ago

As do the people of Tibet. Tough being under the umbrella of an autocratic up-and-coming superpower. Hong Kong has no chance of achieving independence anytime soon.

echaozh3• 7 years ago

Why is Northern Ireland still part of Britain?

anothermouse• 7 years ago

Mostly because the majority of people living there wish to be remain part of the United Kingdom.

40acres• 7 years ago

I thought Xi was smarter than this. Between this and his inability to end tarriff escalation with Trump, Xi is looking vulnerable on foreign policy.

techsin101• 7 years ago

Doesn't USA have same extradition treaty with most countries and under Patriot act anyone can be extradited without due process from any of this nations

About 2M People Rally in Hong Kong Weekend Protests

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