Email from Steve Jobs re: Java and OS X

by sfraser • 16 years ago

197 160 16 years ago

I just got a response from Steve Jobs re: Java and OS X. Here it is.

mahmud2• 16 years ago

Text:

"Sun (now Oracle) supplies Java for all other platforms. They have their own release schedules, which are almost always different than ours, so the Java we ship is always a version behind. This may not be the best way to do it"

--------------------------------

In reply to:

"Mr. Jobs:

I am the CTO and founder of a Software company based in Philadelphia. We create and sell Enterprise software into the health care space.

Our software is Java based, and runs on both the server and desktop. We have been in business for over 12 years now, and are a healthy growing company with about 180 employees.

I am a big Apple customer, as is my company. We love developing and testing Java based software on OS X.

Today in the news were stories like this: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/10/21/apple_threatens_to_k...

and here's another example: http://news.cnet.com/8301-31021_3-20020338-260.html

I am hoping you would consider commenting either to me or via your PR channels what are the future plans for the Java programming language and platform on OS X?

One last note - a growing trend over the last few years at all the software conferences I attend is the popularity of the Macbook laptops. Go to any non-Microsoft focused developers conference and the rooms are typically dominated by Mac laptops. One major reason for this is that OS X is a great platform for Java developers.

thanks

Scott Fraser CTO, Portico Systems http://www.porticosys.com

ez772• 16 years ago

Missing bit at the end of the original message:

"This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message."

It is amusing that these stern words, particularly regarding distribution, never seem to apply to the sender.

thenduks• 16 years ago

That's the footer of Scott's email, not Steve's (Steve's is 'Sent from my iPhone' -- he knows any of his email replies could end up online, of course). He's allowed to share his own correspondence if he wants :)

zck• 16 years ago

>It is amusing that these stern words, particularly regarding distribution, never seem to apply to the sender.

Of course, they never apply to the recipient either, absent further contracts or social pressure. You can put whatever you want in your signature; it doesn't make that able to be enforced.

Radix• 16 years ago

It's a legal thing. He mentioned his software was for the healthcare field. He has to, or chooses to, end all emails like that because it's common to the field.

runjake• 16 years ago

> I am hoping you would consider commenting either to me or via your PR channels what are the future plans for the Java programming language and platform on OS X?

That would be a question for Oracle at this point. I think Apple just let us know what their plans are for Java.

uxp• 16 years ago

This makes me wonder if Apple has a redistributable license for Java that allows them to build the Java binaries with OS X, or if Sun was the one that built the binaries that have been included in OS X install discs, but allowed them to be shipped out under Apple's control. I can't find any Java code on opensource.apple.com, so I'm assuming the latter.

My personal opinion on the issue is one where Apple and/or Oracle decided that Oracle should control the release schedule of their own software, just like they do with every other platform. I really don't understand why this is such a big deal. Apple decided to not do something completely different and adopted a "normal" behavior and everyone freaks out, just like they do when Apple does something different.

bdb4• 16 years ago

Aligning the Java release schedules for OS X and basically all other platforms would be fantastic. Rather than some kind of deprecation, this actually makes OS X a first-class citizen in the Java ecosystem.

andrewjshults• 16 years ago

As long as the horrible Java updater that the Windows version is saddled with doesn't come along as well. I've switched to using a MBP as my primary development machine but every time I start my windows boxes back up (which isn't that infrequently, probably once a week or so) it seems like there is a new Java update. It wouldn't be so bad, except that it seems that over half the time the update will fail without explanation in the middle.

I think if Oracle quickly steps up to the plate and promises to fill Apple's shoes, this could be a good thing. Otherwise, this could very well be another downside to Oracle gobbling up Sun.

bdb4• 16 years ago

Agreed. (Still not quite as bad as the Adobe Reader updates, though. My god.) Hopefully you'll have the option to use Java on OS X packaged like it is on Linux.

jasonjei2• 16 years ago

Couldn't they make Java updates for OS X use the new App Store mechanism?

dasil003• 16 years ago

The thought of Larry "monetizing" Java by putting it in the AppStore is just too hilarious for words.

jonhendry6• 16 years ago

Nope.

jimbojohn2• 16 years ago

Would be against the TOS. Only "safe" apps will be on the app store, nothing that allows other apps to gain root access.

pat2man• 16 years ago

It would be nice to get a commitment from Oracle saying that they would support a Mac version BEFORE Apple drops support...

goalieca• 16 years ago

Ya. I have a mac and I always assumed that sun/oracle released their own version that was not installed by default. Well, it appears they dont.

>Apple Computer fournit sa propre version de Java. Utilisez la fonction de mise à jour du logiciel (disponible dans le menu Apple), afin de vérifier que vous disposez de la version la plus récente de Java pour votre Mac.

sfraser2• 16 years ago

Hi everyone, I added the text as a comment to the image so you can read/copy it more easily.

mahmud2• 16 years ago

Shucks, I did the transcript too above, at 4x zoom :-/

That will be $0.10, Sir!

jon914• 16 years ago

It's great to hear that this was a practical consideration on Apple's part.

I hope that they ensure a smooth transition of the responsibility to Oracle and perhaps even hand over some of the existing work, if licensing permits it.

jasonjei2• 16 years ago

Apple always had a strange, conflicting working dynamic with Sun, a company whose purpose became more aligned to developing technology for the sake of developing technology. Larry Ellison has always had a close, personal relationship with Jobs (and I've always believed that Larry wants to be the Apple of the Enterprise world), so maybe this is a sign that the new boss of Java is handling things differently here, or rather Jobs's personal relationship at work here.

klync2• 16 years ago

TRWTF is that it took Jobs and Apple's thousands of employees how many years to notice this? Either that, or his answer is pure BS and has nothing to do with why Apple made this decision now.

bdb4• 16 years ago

Or, could it be that it was a delicate inter-company relationship and it took time (and Sun being acquired by Oracle) for this shift to take place?

grav1tas• 16 years ago

Either that, or this is all a really highly orchestrated plan of Apple's to phase out official Java support completely after building up a Cocoa developer base. Are there any good numbers on Java desktop applications (aside from Java plugins) vs Java server applications these days? How big of an effect will dropping official "Apple" support complete with UI fancy-ness and some sorta Cocoa bridge? If we have to move to OpenJDK, will server apps really be burned all that much? What exactly is the big deal with having to switch to OpenJDK, anyway? I hear people complain about Apple being behind all the time with Java...isn't this ultimately what people wanted..an up to date Java distribution on OS X?

klync2• 16 years ago

I wouldn't argue with the notion of Jobs being "delicate", that's for sure. And, apparently same goes with the feelings of the HN crowd toward all things Apple.

empire29• 16 years ago

I assume that I can still download the java src and compile/install it on OS X, correct?

I am a Mac user and had never even realized that Apple uses a special distro and Java.com does not offer a JRE/JDK/etc. download for OS X.

After Java is removed, how will Mac users run java apps? What will be the easiest way to get Java back on OS X?

sfraser2• 16 years ago

You would still be able to run the Open JDK. There is a port for the Mac, but if I am not mistaken it uses the X Server and is not as well integrated with the graphics layer of OS X desktop. Example: http://landonf.bikemonkey.org/static/soylatte/

palewery3• 16 years ago

Java still exists on the MAC. There will be no future JDK updates though

cubicle673• 16 years ago

That's actually a fairly decent reply; far better than 'nope' or 'you're holding it wrong'

fauigerzigerk3• 16 years ago

Considering Java apps are banned from the Mac App Store, and there is currently no Oracle JDK for the Mac, I find it hard to call his comment decent. In the interest of not being inflamatory I refrain from calling it something else.

andreyf2• 16 years ago

I've used Macs for years, and I haven't seen a Java app I didn't hate. They're UI is never native and the UX is much slower than good webapp's?

makumba4000• 16 years ago

He never said “you are holding it wrong.” Do your own research instead of spreading FUD.

chaosmachine• 16 years ago

For the record, the actual quote was "Just avoid holding it that way."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ytech_gadg/ytech_gadg_tc2844

cubicle673• 16 years ago

You're correct. Turns out I've been caught by one of those unknown unknowns where I didn't do any further research because I didn't know I didn't know something. It's too late for me to edit my original post, but thanks for pointing it out

wnoise3• 16 years ago

Ah, images. The best way to communicate the text of an e-mail. (Yes, we do have transcripts thanks to mahmud and sfraser, but still...)

elbenshira2• 16 years ago

It's nice to have "evidence" of the email.

wnoise3• 16 years ago

An image like that is approximately as fakeable as the text.

andreyf2• 16 years ago

E-mail headers would be much better evidence.

zmmmmm3• 16 years ago

Positive: Jobs appears to be implying that one of the purposes of this change is that in the future Java will not lag behind on OSX

Negative: He gives absolutely no assurance or even hint that there is a plan that this will really happen, or that Apple will be helpful in facilitating it.

bad_user• 16 years ago

What assurance can he give when it is not in Apple's power to promise anything about what Oracle would do?

I always wondered why SUN wouldn't also ship an OS X version, they already had to support Windows, Linux, Solaris, with mostly native L&F for Swing.

You can't expect Oracle to spend resources and ship for OS X unless Apple gets out of the way. They are deprecating Apple's runtime here, nothing else.

zmmmmm3• 16 years ago

I'm not talking about a contractual assurance here. There are a million ways he could clear the confusion over this. He could easily have picked up the phone and chatted with Larry about it. It would have been simple for him to get some kind of in principal agreement about a handover of the reins. Then he could easily have made a public statement that let everyone know that some arrangements were in place for Oracle to pick up the ball. Or if Larry's playing hard ball he could tell everyone that Oracle is not picking up the ball - either one would be better than just leaving it unstated.

smackfu• 16 years ago

Well, Apple could open-source all their Java work, for Oracle to start with.

bdb4• 16 years ago

The other thing to note here is that virtually all of Apple's web properties are Java applications. Apple has a tremendous internal investment in Java and Java technologies -- the App Store, Apple Web Store, iTunes Store, hell -- even Ping -- are written in Java (via WebObjects).

sunkencity• 16 years ago

it's a pity apple ported their web framework from objective-c to java

BonoboBoner• 16 years ago

I am curious, how do you know that they used WebObjects?

zenslug• 16 years ago

I can verify that the iTunes store and Ping use WebObjects.

program• 16 years ago

It's well known. An extract from Wikipedia:

"Apple is now the biggest client for WebObjects, relying on it to power its online Apple Store, MobileMe online services, and the iTunes Store."

p0ppe• 16 years ago

Having the string "WebObjects" in the URl:s should be a pretty good indicator; https://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore...

brown9-2• 16 years ago

Indeed, Apple's career site shows about 94 results for a search for "Java" (in the US): http://jobs.apple.com/index.ajs?Language=en&CountryId=3

nevster• 16 years ago

Steve Jobs and Larry Ellison are good friends. Jobs was the photographer at Ellison's wedding. Since Oracle bought Sun, it's almost certain the two have discussed Java on the Mac and since Larry has shown his enthusiasm for Java (see JavaOne rundowns), I'm pretty confident things are looking up.

mbeaty• 16 years ago

This is encouraging. Didn't know they were friends. Makes you wonder though why they didn't do some sort of coordinated announcement. I'd REALLY like to hear from Oracle about this soon.

TwoSheds2• 16 years ago

AFAIK the code which makes the Swing UI use native OSX (Cocoa) instead of X is Apple proprietary. I wonder whether Apple will now give that to Oracle or release it as Open Source. Otherwise we're going to be stuck with X Server and ugly UIs for a long time :-(

stellar678• 16 years ago

Two thoughts:

First, with some quick Googling/Wikipedia-ing it seems that Java is released under the GPL. Wouldn't the viral nature of GPL make this code from Apple open source?

Second, if Apple cared enough to invest in building the code to make Swing seem native-OSX in the first place, one would assume they care enough to ensure that it stays available ongoing. Otherwise Java applications begin to drag down the 'desirability' of the OSX platform.

TwoSheds2• 16 years ago

Good point. And I don't think classpath exception would apply here. I'd be interested to hear if someone has actually seen this source code "in the wild".

Zak• 16 years ago

Wouldn't the viral nature of GPL make this code from Apple open source?

No. Apple's Java was based on code licensed from Sun long before Java was released under the GPL. Additionally, Sun's release of code owned by Sun under the GPL does not preclude Sun from licensing that same code under other terms if it so chooses. That's the basis of the dual-license model used by other projects like MySQL.

sp4rki• 16 years ago

Oracle is truly the demise of Java. I mean look at what they are doing to Open Office.

sunjain• 16 years ago

Actually it is much more than what meets the eye. As a trend emerges where use of iPads/iPhones increases in the Enterprisy land, it will not hurt Apple to be up-to-date with Java. And as Steve puts it, it is better to leave upkeep of Java to Oracle who is standardizing their whole Application suite on Java and are focused on Java.Fact that Steve Job was the best man at Larry's wedding was not the deciding factor here.

ajx• 16 years ago

Oracle's lawsuit against google was the last nail in the coffin for Java. If I were you, and was forced to using java code, I would definately either use gcj to compile directly to native object code, or use an oracle supported JVM.

nir4• 16 years ago

I'm surprised at the generally positive approach in HN toward Apple's recent announcements. Apple is about to have control over the user's system no one since mainframe-era IBM ever came close to.

Not only they're about to move desktops/laptops into the App Store's walled garden, they are showing they can drop support for major technologies like Java or Flash if they feel like it. This is not good news for anyone but Apple, certainly not anyone calling themselves "Hacker".

cubicle673• 16 years ago

I think you may be overreacting a bit here, although we won't know until a few years down the track

Apple aren't about to "move desktops/laptops into the App Store's walled garden", but rather they're about to add an optional place to purchase apps. It's an addition that I think may have some benefit for some users and smaller indie developers. I can see it becoming the way most people purchase most of their apps in time, but I can never see it becoming the only way to do so on the mac.

They also haven't dropped support for either Flash or Java. The new MBAs aren't shipping with Flash installed; so what? OSX is the only OS I'm aware of that does ship with Flash. Java? Well, Java's not going anywhere either.

kls5• 16 years ago

Right, I think Steve is smart enough to not follow so many others down that path in history. A completely closed system would cut developers off at the knees. Which would put Apple on the hook to develop every piece of software for their ecosystem. There is no way the could keep up with the idea factory that is the masses. I think rather Apple sees an opportunity to provide a sales channel where they get a cut of other people work by acting as the distributor and in turn do things like guarantee that the app if free of malicious actions and compatible with OSX systems.

As for Java, I knew this one was coming, Jobs and Ellison are good friends and Apple and Oracle are the only two companies that either are not at war with, they really don't compete in each other spaces. So I think Jobs is comfortable with Oracle providing the JVM for their platform.

I am sure that Steve has resigned any worry in his head that Java is going to achieve desktop dominance so it is not a Trojan horse to his platform where it will be used to provide OSX apps in preference over the native OSX development technologies.

Giving it back to Oracle means that the developers get the latest JVM at the same time as everyone else not waiting up to a year as the cycle comes around itself. I think it is a good move on both companies parts. I just wonder why Steve always has to be so vague. I think his showmanship has become so ingrained that he just can't come right out and say it everything has to be a big announcement. I guess I cant fault him, it's his trademark and has served him well.

akmiller• 16 years ago

I stated this in another thread, but I will restate here because it seems appropriate.

The App Store will most definitely become the most popular way to find and install applications. Therefore if your app is not in the app store it may as well not exist. The regular user is going to search for the best application within that garden to fulfill their needs which puts all developers at the mercy of Apple to get their app in the store.

I wonder that if this model gains popularity on the desktop, how long it will be before users click that app store icon to find an application they need vs. click the browser icon to find a service on the web that may fit that need.

With strong shift towards web based apps over the past few years it's interesting that a move like this may re-invigorate the desktop app!

alanh• 16 years ago

When I read comments like yours, I just want to point at a Terminal.app prompt. Or Bootcamp. You can do anything you want to with a Mac, and there’s no actual indication that’s changing; just FUD.

nir4• 16 years ago

I'm writing this on my 3rd Macbook. I don't have any reason to spread FUD against Apple. I think dropping Java (there isn't currently a real alternative to Apple's) is a strong indication. The App Store policies are a strong indicator, and restricting iPhone/iPad development environments is a strong indicator.

You may be able to do what you want on your own machine given enough knowledge/time. The issue arises when a business based on a Mac Java app becomes redundant when Apple feels like it, or when it will become very hard to make a living selling an app Apple doesn't feel is right for the Store.

Once upon a time there was a company called Microsoft who controlled a popular OS. People who called themselves "hackers" generally didn't like it, since they asserted this power to control the product space as well, changing APIs or bundling software to eliminate competition. Apple has gone beyond Microsoft's wildest dreams, and are on track become comparably widespread - I don't think they get a pass just because the standby light has the same frequency as a human heartbeat.

aufreak3• 16 years ago

Although a part of me thinks all this FUD, I can't help be concerned about this situation. Here is one more possibility - what if the dev tools now require you to pay an annual fee to even download them?

gcc is GPL, so they can at best make it difficult to get them free, but clang is racing ahead and it is BSD.

I just hope that my faith in Apple that they won't do something ugly like giving free dev tools when they needed developers and switch to charging for them when they got the app market they wanted.

I think there is now room in the market for a company with good design sense to make Ubuntu machines!

robomc• 16 years ago

I left OSX for Ubuntu earlier this year because I felt this was the direction things were going, and I didn't want to wake up on kid's computer in 3 years.

BUT you could argue that the announced OSX features are more or less Ubuntu Software Center + some bits of Gnome Shell.

nir4• 16 years ago

Definitely - but watching Apple's current iPhone/iPad policies, which direction seems more likely?

shareme• 16 years ago

I think yo are confusing desktop and mobile environments..

Steve Jobs did not outlaw manual installs of any software on desktop Macs..he just made the MacApp store feel Boutique or exclusive to consumers..

DougBTX• 16 years ago

If the forum was still called "Start-up News", I don't think you'd be able to point out a contradiction. The App Store has made it significantly easier to sell software made by small developers to iOS users, they are about to make it really easy to sell to Mac users too. It's a business opportunity. The worst you can say about it is that commercial software is catching up with ease of distribution of free software.

Hey, you've got 90 days to ship a competing app store for the Mac. Valve has already done so with Steam on Windows and Macs, it isn't insurmountable. What's going to make your one better than theirs?

palewery3• 16 years ago

Have you used VMware Fusion 3.0. It is quite fast and integrates well with OS X and MBP hardware. I use a MBP as my workstation and a Fedora VM for development in the MBP.

kls5• 16 years ago

I dumped it for Virtual Box. As good of a product and free.

pilom• 16 years ago

How is the Mac app store any different from Ubuntu's? With both platforms, you can install other programs not in the store. Both of them automate the install and update process for applications. Both of them (now) allow you to pay for apps.

I'm confused by people being upset with the mac app store when FOSS has been doing the same thing for years with package management software. Heck, Cydia is even based off of a *nix package manager.

I don't want to call it fanboyism because I know you have other reasons for disliking their new app store but after seeing how well it works in Ubuntu, why could this possibly be a bad idea?

mirkules2• 16 years ago

I never used Ubuntu's store, so my natural question is: do applications have to get approved in Ubuntu's store? If the answer is"no," it may be the biggest difference with the most impact on end-users and developers.

pohl• 16 years ago

What is it about your personal definition of the word "hacker" that leads you to believe that all such people would arrive at the same opinion about this? This is a popular, growing, and interesting platform. It has APIs, languages, and tools. It's Unix and has a CLI. There is money in them thar hills...why wouldn't there be room for more than one hackerly opinion on the matter?

roqetman• 16 years ago

You can still install it yourself... both Windows and Linux don't come with it already installed. I think that that is Jobs's point - if they bundled it, it was out of date by ship-time.

protomyth2• 16 years ago

From someone who works with a OS X software company, the announcement was great. I am really not worried about OS X being closed because of development needs and the server version.

Not shipping Flash on the MacBook Air was pretty understandable given the noise Adobe made about the OS X 10.6 release version of Flash. The whole build & release cycle seems to take longer than it takes Adobe to patch Flash. So, it is probably a good thing to train users to go to Adobe's site and get the newest Flash.

Dropping an Apple version of Java will probably be a good decision and actually help Java developers. If Oracle is actually taking over then OS X will most probably (given Oracle's catalog of OS X software) be at the same version as all the other platforms instead of the current delay.

slantyyz4• 16 years ago

Another reason to not ship Flash is that by the time you install the OS, the version of Flash is usually outdated and you've got to install the update anyways.

Every time I reinstall an OS, Mac or otherwise, I find myself having to update Flash. If I've got to do that, I may as well install from scratch.

matwood• 16 years ago

I'm surprised at the generally positive approach in HN toward Apple's recent announcements. Apple is about to have control over the user's system no one since mainframe-era IBM ever came close to.

The problem is that you're jumping to some serious conclusions. Nothing about the mac app store demo showed banning of applications from a different source. You're assuming that's their plan, but I don't think it is. The app store makes perfect sense from an end user perspective. One of the great things about linux are the package managers. A central location with lots of software that I can install from AND get updates from.

There is no flash on the iPhone for many well document reasons, so I'll guess you're referring to no flash on the new MBA. Given that any version of flash is out of date and a huge security hole as soon as it's installed, it makes complete sense to force users to go get the latest version when they buy their machine. It wasn't long ago that the shipping version of flash on osx had a huge security hole that made Apple look bad.

What I would like to see if Apple let Adobe put their flash player into the new mac app store. This lets Adobe manage the updates like any other 3rd party developer.

As a 'hacker' I look at what is. Right now my MBP works great and has all the support I need. If Apple does end up going down the path of locking out all other software and/or the ability to hack and develop I'll switch back to linux. At this point though, it's much ado about nothing.

j_baker• 16 years ago

1. Unless the Mac app store takes away your ability to install apps that aren't in it, I wouldn't be too worried.

2. They're not dropping support for Java, they're just not making it anymore. If Oracle makes a version of Java for the Mac, then it will be supported. If not, then losing Java must not be that big a deal right?

esschul• 16 years ago

Is this the way the big companies talk to each other? By getting some random email published?

I don't think apple and oracle had a dialog going here, because why would apple want to look like the bad guy?

So if Oracle says "we'll do this", then great. Oracle will be appreciated again.

heretique• 16 years ago

Last sentence of Steve's reply: "This may not be the best way to do it" tells me that, there may be better way. I really hope that Snoracle will ship OSX distribution of Java.

Anyway, Java developers despite of being geeks, make a good PR for Apple. Just look at laptop covers on any given Java developer conferrence.

modokode• 16 years ago

Darn top poster.

JunkDNA• 16 years ago

To those of you hand-wringing about whether or not Oracle will support Mac, if history is any guide, they may well do it. Oracle has always provided decent driver support for the Oracle database on a multitude of operating systems. When Apple switched to Intel, they released native OS X drivers. They have done this in spite of the fact that Macs have a small enterprise footprint. I see no reason why they would behave differently with Java. In fact, their own GUI front end to Oracle is written in Java, so if they want that to run on the Mac, they will need to do something.

mhayden• 16 years ago

Could the guy's email signature be any longer?

ezrider4428• 16 years ago

It should be Oracle's focus to satisfy its customers. If a lot of Java devs work on Mac's then Oracle should make sure that all Mac's have the best java software available to them. This is not Apple's responsibility

xe2yp• 16 years ago

Ok... Now someone email Larry Ellison to see what response we get from him. :-)

Apple is a big WebObjects user. And WebObjects is 100% java based. This means that developers use Eclipse/WOLips/java to develop their WebObjects applications and java on the server to deploy.

There is also OpenJDK and it looks like that will be the route that developers will use to get java for OS X. This may actually be good. You will not have to rely on OS X releases to get java. The only thing that doesn't look good is Swing unless OpenJDK implements Swing using Cocoa instead of X11. :-)

gusmaru• 16 years ago

What worries me is that Steve did not confirm whether Oracle will be releasing Java on the Apple platform. He just says that Oracle supples Java for all other platforms - they have never done it for Apple. So there is still no commitment of Java support on Mac OS X.

nicolaiw• 16 years ago

Sorry, but all the performance talk on Java are bogus. There are UI issues in Look and Feel, Nd some great developers have developed applications that fell 100% native in Java and work very well.

Large part of the web servers and back-end apps run on Java, and no Java on Mac means no macs for many camps. As noted Apple's own web infrastructure is Java based. Facebook, built maybe the world's best performaning databae server in Java, that stores data for 200M+ daily users (500M+). Google runs large parts of their infrastructure on Java. I have seen benchmarks on number chrunching apps where Java beat C++ performance (this is due to JIT, which almost every JVM has today - some only enable in "server mode" though - means that the Java byte code runs as machine code for the exact processor being used at runtime), not true for all types of number crunching but for some.

Java is not a one size fits alls solution but there are a large number of application areas for Java and hundreds of programming languages that run on Java Virtual Machine platform.

No Java on Mac is an unlikely scenario for Apple, but time will tell...

usarioclave• 16 years ago

Portico's stuff requires java 1.3 and is still AWT and based on 1.1. WTF do they care about java 1.6+

porticodev• 16 years ago

WRONG.

JohnnyW• 16 years ago

I'm glad Apple is returning control of Java to Sun/Oracle. Java is the most widely used language in the world (http://www.devtopics.com/most-popular-programming-languages) and is great for most programming tasks, especially large projects. IMO Apple has done a sucky job of maintaining Java. Not surprising, since it isn't their business. Hopefully Sun/Oracle will do a much better job of releasing an JVM for Macintosh.

Email from Steve Jobs re: Java and OS X

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