Schools Struggle with Vaping Explosion

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/02/health/vaping-ecigarettes-addiction-teen.html

by Zeta_Function • 8 years ago

137 240 8 years ago

neaden7• 8 years ago

I think it is very important for everyone to keep in mind that vaping is probably safer than smoking. But it might not be, we don't know for sure. And it is certainly worse than not consuming any tobacco product. So trying to encourage active smokers to switch to vaping is probably beneficial, but increasing overall tobacco consumption rates is bad.

lemonberry5• 8 years ago

My father's been smoking for over 50 years. I got him to switch to mostly vaping last year. The difference in his health has been profound. It almost eliminated his coughing, increased his ability to walk distances. His doctor was amazed at his last checkup. She said she couldn't recommend it to patients due to the uncertainties, but encouraged him to keep doing whatever it is that he's doing.

Edit: I bought him the vape after a friend that's been smoking for a long time made the switch and raved about the benefits. I don't doubt that the best course of action is to quit altogether, but a 50+ year addiction is pretty difficult to quit. It can be done but you really have to want it. I don't think my dad really wanted to quit. I know that seems silly, but given his circumstances I can understand.

LordKano4• 8 years ago

I smoked for about 18 years and I made the switch to vaping a few years ago. I haven't completely given up tobacco smoking but I have cut back tremendously.

I tried to quit several times, I tried the gum, the patches, Chantix and cold turkey. None of them allowed me to successfully quit. Vaping was good enough to temper the nicotine cravings enough that I could otherwise function without regular smoking. I have cut back on nicotine content over the years. Now, I'm using the lowest nicotine content liquid that I find readily available. The next step is to mix it with 0 nicotine liquid until I can make another attempt at quitting.

I agree that non-smokers (especially children) shouldn't do it because it can lead to nicotine addiction but for smokers, it's a miracle product.

reitanqild• 8 years ago

Another benefit I've seen a number of times is that people seems to have an easier time quitting. (Based on my sample of < 5 coworkers that switched to vaping.)

The pattern, as explained to me and IIRC, was as follows:

Started vaping insteadof smoking.

Tried vape with less nicotine. Worked equally well.

Tried with half strength.

Tried with even less. Also worked.

At this point it just felt silly so they just stopped.

(Note that these where young people.)

Symbiote• 8 years ago

The UK's NHS says "particularly if you've already tried other methods of quitting smoking without success, you might want to give e-cigarettes a go" and "according to current evidence on e-cigarettes, they carry a fraction of the risk of cigarettes."

https://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/smoking/Pages/e-cigarettes.aspx

mathgeek• 8 years ago

I don't doubt that the best course of action is to quit altogether, but a 50+ year addiction is pretty difficult to quit. It can be done but you really have to want it. I don't think my dad really wanted to quit. I know that seems silly, but given his circumstances I can understand.

Much as your physical health is probably best by quitting, mental health certainly has to be considered as well.

agumonkey2• 8 years ago

got my mom had a device, before she had a heart attack, then she stopped smoking for a while, but she hates tech so much, she got back to smoking instead of vaping to fill nicotin craves.

it's hard to convince people some times (also not helping that things are still fuzzy and depending on your friends, you can also hear horror stories like lung cancer due to weird vaping byproducts ..)

frgtpsswrdlame3• 8 years ago

There's the risk that ecigs are an on ramp to actual cigarette smoking. That reflects my experience, first using a friends vape now and then to bumming the occasional cigarette to actual smoking. There's a symmetry we don't like to acknowledge between what makes vapes good for quitting - you can slowly ramp your nicotine - and what makes vapes good for starting. See this study: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/article-abst...

notvplez2• 8 years ago

As someone who quit smoking thanks to vaping I cannot fathom why anyone would go the other direction. Why not just continue vaping instead?

TFortunato3• 8 years ago

Not sure why people are downvoting w/o commenting. It seems like the study concluded what you are saying - that vaping / eCigs do increase the likelihood you will start smoking actual cigarettes.

bspn• 8 years ago

I agree that for traditional tobacco smokers it is likely a net-positive, and it is potentially a tool they can use to reduce their nicotine intake and even eliminate it altogether. The concern with the latest explosion in schools, however, is the significant number of kids getting addicted to nicotine who may not otherwise have tried smoking traditional cigarettes. The nicotine level in a Juul pod is incredibly high, and it doesn't take long for these kids to get hooked. That's something we should be concerned about IMO.

neaden7• 8 years ago

I definitely agree with this, the ideal would be current tobacco users switching to vapes while no non-tobacco user touches them. I just am not sure how we can get to that ideal and how to balance encouraging smokers to switch without encouraging kids to think of vaping as safe.

Domenic_S3• 8 years ago

The concern [is] kids getting addicted to nicotine

Non-snarky question: why is that a concern? Nicotine -- in the absence of burning tobacco -- isn't bad for you.

berberous2• 8 years ago

Yeah, I'm highly skeptical it's overall safe. You have all sorts of metals, liquids, plastics, flavoring compounds, wicks, etc. Some people try to select 'healthy' choices (like organic cotton for the wick); maybe that's healthier, maybe it's not. But then you also have tons of cheap devices on the market, made in China, with who knows what as the cheapest metal/fabric, and then literally tons of unregulated flavoring compounds on top of PG/VG. Any one of those components could be harmful.

LyndsySimon2• 8 years ago

You have all sorts of metals, liquids, flavoring compounds, wicks, etc

Metal content is negligible unless you dry hit. No one likes that so it's pretty much a self-limiting problem.

Flavoring compounds, though... there are liquids out there that contain diacetyl (a "buttery" flavoring). It's relatively common in foods, but is known specifically to cause issues when heated and inhaled.

ETA: I just saw that this is mentioned in the article.

Any one of those components could be harmful.

Yep. The best harm reduction strategy at the moment seems to be to stick to well-known and establish manufacturers of eliquid.

skybrian2• 8 years ago

You could say the same about food and the equipment used to cook it; how do you know the food you buy is safe?

Maybe there aren't enough regulations around vaping ingredients? If so, the solution is to regulate it (much like food). In the meantime, it's up to the buyer to find reliable suppliers who use good ingredients. This isn't impossible.

overcast• 8 years ago

The unfortunate side effect of getting smokers off of cigarettes, is that non-smokers see it as a safe option to start. It's an unintended consequence, but pretty predictable. With that said, youth will be youth, and I'd rather they experiment with vaping, rather than cigarettes at this point.

013a4• 8 years ago

Just to be very clear on your use of language: Vaping has nothing to do with tobacco. Period. Calling "vape" a tobacco product is equivalent to calling coca-cola a "coffee product". They essentially share a single active chemical (nicotine), and even then many vapers elect to vape nicotine-free liquid.

LordKano4• 8 years ago

I get your point but as I understand it, the source of the nicotine for those liquids is tobacco.

epmaybe• 8 years ago

Also wanted to point out that the NIH is rolling out a standardized e-cigarette for research, so that all the results in future papers can be compared with one another. The settings otherwise are just too variable otherwise.

https://www.drugabuse.gov/funding/supplemental-information-n...

jessriedel• 8 years ago

And it is certainly worse than not consuming any tobacco product.

I don't think we know this. routine use of Nicotine alone is one of the world's most effective and safest appetite suppressants, with robust evidence of sustained weightless. It's quite possible a small decrease in the obesity rate means its net effect is positive.

jgalt212• 8 years ago

probably the #1 or #2 reason girls in my HS smoked (back in the dizay)

jordan801• 8 years ago

Vaping isn't tobacco, though.

agumonkey2• 8 years ago

beside some deep science the biggest risk is eliquid content, but so far, beside relying on internet boards and users I couldnt find a standard test for safety

_m8fo2• 8 years ago

Who does this stuff even benefit? The seemingly arbitrary lines drawn between marijuana, alcohol, tobacco and other "drugs" is so weird. So much moral righteousness.

ebbv4• 8 years ago

The tobacco companies have bought into the vaping industry, along with a lot of random other corporations and small businesses.

But there's certainly NO reason to vape other than "monkey see, monkey do."

moate3• 8 years ago

What broad reasons do teenagers have to vape exactly?

matt_wulfeck• 8 years ago

Why is it arbitrary? They are vastly different mind-altering affects and chemical addiction levels.

_m8fo2• 8 years ago

If it's not arbitrary, what are the criteria for legality? If there are no set criteria (whether it's amount of deaths, addictiveness or otherwise) then isn't it arbitrary by definition?

EDIT:

Regarding my comment earlier about whether or not tobacco is worse than alcohol: Looks like tobacco is actually the #1 cause of death [1]

[1] http://www.csdp.org/research/1238.pdf

kurthr2• 8 years ago

The people selling it... (often illegally) to kids, who then have trouble getting a basic education and develop habits, which are long term destructive to their ability to operate within society.

toomuchtodo2• 8 years ago

Mid 30s adult here who used an e-cigarette for a year or two when alone in the car for funsies (flavors smell nice).

What, exactly, is the problem with kids vaping/using e-cigarettes if they don't contain a controlled substance (THC or nicotine, in these cases). We don't ban kids from consuming caffeine, so what's the problem with inert vapors? I agree that the liquid to be vaporized needs to be regulated to prevent health issues, but that's no different than the FDA regulating food safety.

DanBC3• 8 years ago

There's some evidence that young people who start vaping, who've never smoked before, are converting to cigarettes, and that this is including young people who would not have gone on to smoke otherwise. That's worrying. Smoking is very harmful and young people don't really have the prefrontal cortex needed to be able to make that decision.

There's also evidence that smokers find vaping useful as a cessation tool. So we need a way to balance the harms and benefits.

It doesn't help that vape suppliers in England will sell to children who've never smoked, despite the code of conduct telling them not to. This small number of bad actors will attract stricter regulation.

yters• 8 years ago

What about sugar and fats? Probably cause just as many health problems as smoking.

The bigger problem is behavior. Focusing on particular substances is mostly a scapegoat for our lack of self control.

dsfyu404ed• 8 years ago

It's hard to learn self control when you're being micromanaged.

gowld2• 8 years ago

marijuana, alcohol, tobacco and other "drugs"

are all unhealthy for kids.

truculation10• 8 years ago

What should the vaping kids do instead of vaping?

neaden7• 8 years ago

Preferably just breathe normal air? As in don't replace it with any other drug.

truculation10• 8 years ago

I'm not sure that abstinence works. Btw you know of course that many boys are put on officially-sanctioned drugs at school? Should we put them on those drugs instead?

WalterSear2• 8 years ago

Perhaps live in the here and now? As in don't expect people not to be humans.

amelius• 8 years ago

programming!

truculation10• 8 years ago

Yes a programming problem certainly can occupy the previously-bored mind -- but is that an option in school?

droidist22• 8 years ago

Read the bible

truculation10• 8 years ago

Do you mean to imply that religious faith offers a way out of addiction or that (for example) the Book of Job is really really interesting?

testplzignore• 8 years ago

There was a golden era about 10 years ago where it looked like smoking was finally going to be conquered. The cessation aids were working. Smoking rates were plummeting. It wasn't cool anymore. It was no longer an impossible problem - people could quit and never look back.

Then vaping screwed it all up.

I hate the myth - which I assumed is being propagated by the companies that profit off of it - that vaping was a replacement for smoking, and that people who vape would otherwise smoke. No. There was a clear period of time between when smoking was on its deathbed and when vaping exploded.

teamhappy• 8 years ago

You seem to completely ignore that a large fraction of people relapse.

Domenic_S3• 8 years ago

No.

Yes. In my social circle a whole bunch of us switched from smoking a pack+/day to vaping, about 10 years ago.

refurb3• 8 years ago

Humans like mind-altering substances. I can guarantee you that if tobacco disappeared and vaping didn't exist these kids would just be drinking or smoking pot.

strictnein• 8 years ago

But vaping isn't smoking. It's a similar looking, but significantly different activity that carries almost none of the health risks associated with smoking, both firsthand and secondhand.

skybrian2• 8 years ago

If they're having trouble quitting, the obvious thing to do is lower the nicotine level, eventually to zero.

billfruit2• 8 years ago

Video games, perhaps.

aje4032• 8 years ago

"Young hormonal teenagers seeking to rebel perform risky behavior with addictive substances"

Maybe they should just sit in the chair and do what they're told instead

rco8786• 8 years ago

Assuming this is TIC?

FrozenTuna• 8 years ago

Too true.

"ABC is a gateway drug/activity/event. It leads to XYZ, which is way worse!"

Sure, so educate them on real consequences and safety and not the external imposed consequences. Also, don't lie about ABC since they'll assume you lied about XYZ as well.

Seriously, who still doesn't see the same 5-10 year pattern at this point?

aje4032• 8 years ago

People like to control others and everyone loves a sensationalist national epidemic for the headlines is what is at the heart of it. I like vaping though. Doesn't appear to do any lasting harm compared to everything else and smart kids will wise up and quit eventually.

xena2• 8 years ago

Not everyone is gifted with long-term attention. Our society is helpfully breeding that quality out of us.

nradov2• 8 years ago

A lot of those kids are probably self medicating with nicotine for stress / anxiety / ADHD. I've never been a user myself but it seems like for many people who get nervous and have trouble focusing, a little nicotine helps steady them out.

Edit: To be clear, I'm not recommending that anyone, especially children, self medicate with psychoactive substances.

swiley• 8 years ago

(I'm a college student, not a highschool student) among my friends that smoked it wasn't self medication, it was an excuse to socialize. In some environments these can be hard to come by so smoking is an artificial one that lonely people sometimes pick up.

bungie4• 8 years ago

Nicotine is a stimulant, not a depressant.

Do you take Meth to 'even out'?

Me, I just quit smoking entirely 3 years ago.

lemonberry5• 8 years ago

The biggest lie of cigarette smoking: that it relaxes you. When you're a nicotine addict and crave it you get anxious, nicotine fixes that.

nradov2• 8 years ago

It's not that simple. Nicotine is both a stimulant and a relaxant.

http://www.ti.ubc.ca/1997/10/31/effective-clinical-tobacco-i...

I don't personally take meth or anything like that, but low dose amphetamines are widely used to treat ADHD and related disorders.

It's good that you quit. I'm certainly not recommending nicotine to anyone. Just pointing out one factor behind the growing trend.

sloppycee• 8 years ago

I take amphetamines to 'even out'...

Stimulants affect people with certain disorders differently, as the parent mentioned (ADHD, etc.).

sillypuddy• 8 years ago

Methamphetamine has been approved by the FDA for treating ADHD

WalterSear2• 8 years ago

The problem isn't a little nicotine. The utter nastiness in cigarettes limits how much you can have. Vapes don't.

Thriptic• 8 years ago

It's more complicated than that, but I have had multiple smokers espouse to me that it is more difficult to regulate consumption with a vape than with traditional cigarettes.

I'm not sure what the new vapes can do, but old vapes didn't have the ability to put a ceiling on dose for a single session (ie turn off after x pulls). With a cigarette, the act of burning through the cig acts as an indicator to stop. With a vape it's more difficult to understand when to stop because there is no physical indicator.

alecco2• 8 years ago

For years it was obvious to me vaping was backed by an astroturfing campaign on Facebook/reddit/HN/etc. Same for many other things the online techie in crowd things they came up on their own.

Let's fix this recurring problem.

knieveltech• 8 years ago

I've participated in many of the online groups you've mentioned. While there have certainly been communities pop up in the places you mention they are, by and large, populated with enthusiasts sharing details about their equipment and preferred vendors, and boutique manufacturers advertising their products. Obvious attempts to shill products manufactured by large corporate firms are roundly rejected by these communities. What evidence do you have to support claims of astroturfing?

moate3• 8 years ago

...wut?

portofcall4• 8 years ago

If you’re right that might explain why this article was just flagged so much it went from near the top of the front page, to near the bottom of the second.

Edit now the third page.

8 min later, 4th page.

alecco2• 8 years ago

And we got downvoted to hell. Yeah, this was by "fans" alone.

julienmarie• 8 years ago

Smoking per se has been a behaviour for thousands of years. As much as there will always be effects on health, vaping has been a god send for me. I have been smoking 1+ pack a day for nearly 20 years, until I switched to vaping 9 months ago. I feel incomparably better. My resting heart rate went down by 20%, I breathe better, am way less tired, and it doesn't stink . Plus, there is a geeky aspect with what we call RDAs ( rebuildable vapes ). Yes, we do not know the long terms effects, but the chances to be worse than cigarettes are close to 0. Also, this article is full of references to studies that have been flagged as partisan and not seriously conducted. Not smoking / vaping is better, but for an ex-smoker, this is a godsend.

verylittlemeat2• 8 years ago

I always find it interesting to remember that smoking tobacco was unknown in Europe until the colonization of the Americas.

mchannon• 8 years ago

A generation ago these kids would've gotten busted for smoking old-fashioned cigarettes ("Smokin' in the boys room"). Two generations ago it was legal to buy (at some states at age 16) and legal to possess and use, except on school grounds. Three generations ago it was legal even in doctor's offices and hospitals.

California and Massachusetts (and oddly enough, Mississippi) are stoking up a new hysteria with public health spending in an effort to keep people of all ages from switching from conventional cigarettes to e-cigs.

I see six-figure earners on the sidewalks of San Francisco smoking old-fashioned cancer sticks and very few vaping. I wonder- did my tax dollars dissuade them from upgrading their habit? Second-hand smoke is substantially safer from vaping, but actual health of nonsmokers must not be these states' priorities.

There are rumblings about regulating nicotine content in real cigarettes. If they were to regulate vape juices (like limit the worst precarcinogenic bases), I think that's a much better (and cheaper!) place to devote public resources.

ams61102• 8 years ago

Only a generation ago smoking was still allowed at many high schools. It was at mine (1980s). There was a designated outdoor smoking area for the kids that smoked.

danisth• 8 years ago

My high school had an on property smoking area until around 2003. The east coast of Canada can be pretty backwards I guess..

pducks32• 8 years ago

I wonder if they had one now, only for cigarettes, how many kids would do it and withstand the social humiliation that exists with teenagers around smoking cigarettes.

rconti• 8 years ago

You must know that smoking rates have tanked all across California and particularly in urban areas. Maybe the advertising is meant to get ahead of the vaping 'problem', to get people to quit cold turkey rather than switching to vaping, or to prevent kids from vaping.

The fact that you see a few people smoking cigarettes outside an office building doesn't mean both of these campaigns didn't work.

ghostbrainalpha• 8 years ago

Reading these comments its obvious that Vaping is forcing us to confront an uncomfortable truth.

Vaping might not be that much healthier for the consumer, but its widely popular because its so much nicer for the non smoker.

How much of the campaign to stop smoking was out of concern for the health of future generations? And how much of it was out of the annoyance of second hand smoke?

Even if Vaping proves to be equally dangerous to cigarette smoking, our desire to stop it just isn't in the same ballpark.

Zak• 8 years ago

I'm OK with that. I believe people have a fundamental right to make their own decisions about what to put in their bodies, but not to expose others to harmful or unpleasant substances.

I'd like there to be more information on the health effects of vaping so that people can make better-informed decisions, but I doubt it would have a big impact. The health effects of smoking have been well-known for decades, but I think we didn't see significant declines until it became less socially acceptable.

jogjayr• 8 years ago

How much of the campaign to stop smoking was out of concern for the health of future generations? And how much of it was out of the annoyance of second hand smoke?

Aren't they often the same thing? You don't want your kids breathing other people's smoke at restaurants, parks, museums, and ballgames.

ben5092• 8 years ago

Why is it so important that our motivations be concern for future generations? We're people, too.

wonderflpancake• 8 years ago

Semi-related, maybe there are some nicotine experts here that can help me:

I smoked ~4 years light/social post high school. Dipped Copenhagen Pouches for ~10 years. I've tried to quite with some success with the longest streak being 2 years. It is incredibly hard and all in the mind.

I found ZYN pouches last year and they have replaced my needs. It "... is a tobacco leaf-free nicotine product. The nicotine salt used in ZYN is derived from tobacco leaves, but once the salt is extracted, no part of the leaf remains." The rest of it is says its food-grade.

Obviously the best would be not to use anything. But would anyone happen to know if this is still leaving a lot of risk exposure? My thought is its probably about as safe as I'll ever find, and really just giving me the nicotine I've become used to without the bad stuff, as nicotine itself is not what causes problems. But if anyone has more informed opinions that would be helpful.

xena2• 8 years ago

Ask your doctor, not us.

surrogatekey• 8 years ago

Well done you.

In terms of recreational nicotine, Swedish snus has the most established, long term evidence base for very significantly reduced risks.

It's reasonable to expect that a product like Zyn would fare even better than Swedish snus in long term studies because of the lack of tobacco specific nitrosamines. Although Zyn doesn't have a long term, formulation specific evidence base like Swedish snus, there is good evidence for its components.

Pharmaceutical nicotine replacement therapy products like nicotine gum could be options too. Guessing you've already tried that though... but even the FDA now says NRT can be used indefinitely.

bob1029• 8 years ago

I think we have a bigger problem with stimulant abuse in general. The perception of caffeine and nicotine (and god forbid the various amphetamines) as "safe" is incredibly deceptive. I have seen the differences in myself in terms of productivity, sleep quality, etc. which cannot be fully-quantified on some medical study or quarterly performance reviews. We have an entire generation of young people entering the workforce who cannot go 30 minutes without taking a vape break outside. Sure, this doesn't directly impact the individual's health or immediate perceptions of work effort, but over time the impact is gradually discovered. The individual cannot sit still in a chair and focus on a complex/deep-dive topic long enough to reach an actionable conclusion. The other extreme is the individual is hyper-focused on one task (usually the amphetamine users) to the extent that they begin to ignore all sense of context and lose focus on the bigger picture. For most employment, this is usually not a concern, but for those who have to dive incredibly deep into complexity on a daily basis (engineers, programmers, architects, etc.), I feel it can be the difference between getting something done in 4 hours and getting it done in 4 weeks. This perception is also something incredibly hard to quantify, but I have witnessed several anecdotal examples (some in myself) which I am confident can be attributed to excessive use of stimulants.

troncjb• 8 years ago

We have an entire generation of young people entering the workforce who cannot go 30 minutes without taking a vape break outside

This is the most absurd hyperbole I've heard so far this week. Granted it's Monday so you had a lot working against you. An entire generation? Every thirty minutes?

qwerty456127• 8 years ago

Schools are for educating, not for prohibiting or judging. If you believe vaping is bad for kids or whoever - educate them about why do you think so and let them decide for themselves.

When I was a schoolboy everybody believed kids that smoke don't grow as they get older, nobody wanted to become a gnome :-)

If there is a real health threat we are to be able to explain it to the children, if there isn't - we probably should just let the do what they want.

SnowingXIV• 8 years ago

I'm pretty against the pro-vape movement because I believe there are plenty of kids now who now choose to vape who would have never smoked anything in the first place previously. It seems a lot easier to convince someone to vape because it appears safe and they already know all the risks of cigarettes which eliminated that of being a possibility (good!).

013a4• 8 years ago

One problem I think the industry has right now is the "gas station disposable" ecigs, like Blu, Vuse, Juul pods, etc. These things have massive amounts of nicotine, sometimes as high as 30mg/ml which puts the hit right up there with cigarettes. Combine it with the fact that they taste like candy and can be vaped indoors with no ill effects, and its a recipe for addiction.

More traditional e-juice can range in nic content from 0mg/ml to as high as 40-50mg/ml, but the most common variants you see are 3mg/ml and 6mg/ml. Relatively low compared to the gas station stuff.

Its also worth saying that the two aren't directly comparable due to the action of vaporization. Gas station ecigs are pretty bad at generating vapor, which means you get less vapor on each inhale, which means less actual nicotine. Reusable, higher tier vapes that you use with usually lower nic juice produce significantly more vapor. So its hard to compare.

Which comes down to the biggest problem in the world: regulation and standardization. Its a complete wild west. You have no idea what standards the e-juice manufacturers hold themselves to. The "brands" on many juices are hidden behind flashy flavor names like "Quadruple Laser Berry". There's an advertised nic content, but who knows if that's actually what's in there. Often you can purchase nic strengths that are absurd, like 40-60mg/ml, that would make any reasonable person instantly puke. Physical stores will often card, especially if you look young, but there are many online retailers where you can buy whatever you want with no verification. There are states where you can't legally buy this stuff online, but most online retailers don't care.

mrob4• 8 years ago

Seeing as nicotine is a known risk, but the carrier fluids and flavorings are a mostly unknown risk, isn't higher nicotine concentration better? You can get the same dose with less exposure to the unknown risks.

adrusi• 8 years ago

In any case, so little nicotine goes into the juice compared to the amount of solvent that increasing the nicotine concentration even to very high levels had a negligible impact on the amount of solvent. And manufacturers aren't going to put less flavoring in.

I'm not sure of the chemistry in this specific case, but it sometimes happens that adding more solutes just causes a solution to get denser, so it doesn't decrease the mass of solvent per unit volume.

013a4• 8 years ago

Not really.

Nicotine wears off very quickly. While it can remain detectable in your system for days, the feeling it gives only persists for 10-15 minutes after inhale, if that. Varying the dosage only really affects the intensity, not duration.

Speaking of intensity; if you don't have a tolerance, high levels of nic can be physically and mentally uncomfortable. Someone who can comfortably inhale 3mg/ml of nic might get slightly nauseous and uncomfortable even at 6mg/ml, definitely at 9mg/ml, unless you have a counteracting agent in your system like alcohol (which is why "leveling out" is a thing).

The chemically addictive properties nicotine has is only one part of the story. There's also the "throat hit"; the feeling of inhaling something warm and slightly uncomfortable. That's a major part of the addiction.

It also tastes great. And its "something to do"; kind of like a fidget spinner, it keeps you busy.

TheBeardKing2• 8 years ago

The 2017 Monitoring the Future survey on adolescent drug use found that 11 percent of 12th graders, 8.5 percent of 10th graders and 3.5 percent of 8th graders had vaped nicotine in the previous 30 days. Of those high school seniors, 24 percent reported vaping daily, which the study defined as vaping on 20 or more occasions in the previous 30 days

I'm sorry, but is <10% of high schoolers an "explosion"? Obviously e-cigarettes are more appealing than tobacco products, but regular cigarette use was 15.8% in 2011 [1]. Marijuana use is at close to 6%, so not that big a gap from the apparent "explosion" of kids vaping.

[1] https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/yout...

extrememacaroni• 8 years ago

Explosion refers to the increase rate in those percentages, not to the percentages themselves. Example: expecting in a relatively short amount of time, say, 0.1% and getting 4% qualifies as explosion to me.

TheBeardKing2• 8 years ago

Obviously the rate increased, it's a fairly new device. Nintendo Switch must've went nuclear. Pokemon Go caused utter annihiliation.

vkou3• 8 years ago

Yes, but what if it correlates with a decrease in cigarette smoking from 15% to 11%?

Sure, there's been an explosion in vaping, but no change to overall nicotine consumption.

Anon1096• 8 years ago

Just above that in the article it states that 45 percent of the students at the Boulder school admitted to vaping. So yes, I would consider that an explosion.

steve_musk• 8 years ago

Maybe it is region dependent? I have some younger relatives and high school/middle school and they make it seem like almost every at their school is vaping (mostly the new juul things)

MaxLeiter• 8 years ago

Juuls are incredibly common in a lot of schools. At my school, the number of high schoolers that use a juul more than once a week is at least 20%. (Small school)

cbhl2• 8 years ago

Yes. That means that in a school of of 360 kids (30 students * 3 classes * 4 grades), ~36 of them are now nicotine users through vaping. You may as well dedicate an entire classroom to holding detention.

The US was slowly reducing the number of middle schoolers who smoke cigarettes. According to the CDC, cigarette use dropped from 4.3% in 2011 to 2.2% in 2016. [1]

This would be a 5x reversal in less than a year. That's huge.

[1] https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/yout...

lern_too_spel• 8 years ago

You're both citing the same source, but you're comparing 12th grade usage to middle school usage.

ghayes• 8 years ago

Couldn't this be explained by a substitution effect? The numbers from the CDC article discuss only the changes from the period starting in 2011 until 2016; where do you justify "a 5x reversal in less than a year?"

jacobolus3• 8 years ago

Cigarettes cause high rates of lung cancer, killing tons of people. It makes sense to heavily discourage teenagers from using them. As far as I am aware (I am not an expert about or user of any of these products) the risks from vaping are much less severe.

Is the concern just that the activity is nominally unlawful? Or that it will be a “gateway drug” (is there any evidence of that)? Or that it is a waste of students’ time? Or ...

Or are we worried about stimulants in general? Or is there still some significant cancer risk from vaping? (Are people freaking out about high school students drinking too much coffee?)

If students are just replacing cigarettes with vaping, that seems like an unambiguously positive development.

gowld2• 8 years ago

8.0% reported in 2016 that they smoked cigarettes in the past 30 days—a decrease from 15.8% in 2011.

The CDC report doesn't report clearly on the overlap between modalities, but if e-cigarette uptake is cancelling all the reductions in non-e-cigarettes, it's quite alarming that nicotine consumption isn't being reduced as previously though.

billfruit2• 8 years ago

To me, vaping appears to be a significantly less harmful to the body than smoking: vaping is just inhaling steam infused with nicotine where as in smoking the fumes of combustion are being inhaled. I also think with vaping there also no risk of passive smoking. I am in amazement of WHO and other health bodies dragging their feet in declaring vaping almost harmless compared to smoking.

richsherwood• 8 years ago

I’ve used the odd vape here and there to stop smoking and I 100% agree with you that it’s safer than cigarettes but it’s way to early to say that it’s wholly “safe”. The problem is that if you declare it safe then everyone and their dog will start vaping, (which then amplifies any outlier problems as there are more data sources. Aka teens). The unfortunate thing is we likely won’t see any declarations one way or another for a few years now. The only way to see the true costs associated with vaping is to let time take its course. 15 years from now we will have a better idea of what daily vaping does to the human body and how safe it really is.

mrob4• 8 years ago

I'm not aware of any common vape that uses pure water as the carrier fluid. They typically use glycerol or propylene glycol, so it's not just "steam".

foreigner2• 8 years ago

Why not just set the minimum birthdate to buy nicotine products at 2000, so only 18 year olds can buy it this year, and future generations cannot? Seems like that would sidestep the whole "removing people's rights" argument and gradually just phase it out completely? Has any jurisdiction done that?

Eric_WVGG2• 8 years ago

Sure I mean a minimum age to buy cigarettes definitely kept teens off smoking for the past 50 years

Sorry for the sarcasm, but, like, what?

foreigner2• 8 years ago

I'm not suggesting a minimum age, I'm suggesting a minimum birthdate. So the minimum age will advance automatically - this year it will be 18, next year 19, etc... Put another way, people born on or before 2000 will continue to be able to buy nicotine, but people born after 2000 will never be able to buy it. Over time the percentage of the population which can buy nicotine will gradually dwindle to zero, and there will be no more excuses for stores to stock it.

AFAIK that approach hasn't been tried anywhere. I think I heard a while back it was discussed in Russia but never actually happened? I don't see any good argument for not doing this.

philip1209• 8 years ago

Schools Struggle with Vaping Explosion

I find this title confusing - I thought it meant that vapes were physically exploding.

corobo2• 8 years ago

Yeah that is exactly why I clicked into the comments

loeg• 8 years ago

In his four years at Cape Elizabeth, Mr. Carpenter says he can’t recall seeing a single student smoke a cigarette.

Golden age syndrome. It happened, you just forget about the negative parts.

Anecdote: when I was in highschool quite recently (2004-2008), many students were regular smokers or dippers (chew tobacco). At this point, the health effects of smoking (and to a lesser extent, chew tobacco) were obviously well understood. Nevertheless, students picked up smoking etc.

Picking up vaping nicotine probably isn't great, but it beats cigarettes (and probably chew tobacco).

The important thing to remember is that overall drug and alcohol use among American teens is down, and trending down. "According to a major longitudinal study of teenagers called Monitoring the Future, high schoolers’ use of alcohol, cigarettes, and drugs (other than marijuana and vaping) have dropped to the lowest levels since the survey began in 1976."[0]

Notably, from the above December 2016 article:

E-Cigarettes (Vaporizers): The rate for e-cigarettes among high school seniors dropped to 12.4 percent from last year’s 16.2 percent. Of note: only 24.9 percent of 12th graders report that their e-cigarettes contained nicotine (the addictive ingredient in tobacco) the last time they used, with 62.8 percent claiming they contain "just flavoring." (emphasis added)
Attitudes and Availability: This year, more 10th graders disapprove of regular use of e-cigarettes than last year. For example, 65 percent of 10th graders say they disapprove, up from last year’s 59.9 percent. In addition, more 10th graders think it is harder to get regular cigarettes than last year; 62.9 percent said they are easy to get, compared to 66.6 percent last year. This represents a dramatic shift from survey findings two decades ago, when 91.3 percent of 10th graders thought it was easy to get cigarettes.

[0] https://www.drugabuse.gov/news-events/news-releases/2016/12/...

thedirt0115• 8 years ago

I wonder how accurate these surveys are. In high school, kids I knew who actually did drugs wouldn't admit to it (even on an anonymous survey), and some other kids would answer that they do meth every day because it sounded funny to write that.

Rapzid• 8 years ago

Looking past the safety concerns, I personally have zero interest in vaping nicotine as an ex smoker.

A lot who have smoked and quit probably understand the pschological aspect; the constant need, the schedule, the loss of enjoyment from taking a deep breath of fresh air.. I don't want to be addicted to inhaling nicotine in any form.

kevindong• 8 years ago

I never understood why anyone young would start smoking. Throughout my K-12 education, I was told every single year that smoking is bad and all that jazz (i.e. shown pictures of what a smoker's lungs look like, shown documentaries on the negative effects, etc.).

It definitely isn't for lack of trying of my school district's part, and yet high single digit percentages of my peers in high school were using some form of tobacco/nicotine when I graduated in 2015.

It's well settled science that using these types of products cannot possibly be good for you. It baffles me why anyone would intentionally create an addiction/habit that, at absolute best, is neutral for your health.

am_i_legal• 8 years ago

not a smoker, but asked a lot of smokers on why they smoke.

reasons:

1). exclusive social 'networks' - see smokers gathered during 'smoking breaks'

2). looks cool

seriously, someone should make a e-cigarette that looks exactly like a cigar...

ps: as for all those non-smokers, pretend to cough when someone is smoking on public space. tell them it looks shit when someone smokes.

duxup• 8 years ago

While I don't doubt that social aspects play a part. I wonder how much of it is some sort of self medicating with the nicotine.

s73v3r_3• 8 years ago

"I never understood why anyone young would start smoking"

To look cool.

No, seriously, that's one of the main reasons. To look cool in front of one's peers. You might not have cared about such things, or feel pressure to engage in them. If so, I'm happy for you. But that doesn't mean others don't.

bonesss• 8 years ago

Superficial habits are also an easy substitute for personality, something teens are eagerly trying to develop. Everything from hair dying to wearing bow ties are 'normal', vices carry all kinds of extra social signaling.

wheresmyusern• 8 years ago

kids who are not raised well are usually the ones who turn to things that are not looked upon well by their community and society. or kids who have some kind of festering problem. there are a some kids who are given zero guidance by their parents in school or life, or who are sabotaged by their parents, and if those kids are not exceptional in some way they will fall behind socially and academically. in this society, falling behind socially and academically to the point where you feel like you cant catch up is sort of like being handed a death sentence. so if you have no future, or you are convinced that you dont, then what is the point of avoiding cancer? what is the point of anything?

limeblack• 8 years ago

is neutral for your health

FYI smoking and diabetes have about the same negative effect on life expectancy so I wouldn't say neutral. Adult on set diabetes can be avoided with diet and exercise yet people still eat poorly.

bottled_poe• 8 years ago

I never understood why anyone young would start smoking.

Because nicotine feels good. It's really not that complicated.

daveFNbuck• 8 years ago

I was told every single year that smoking is bad and all that jazz

If someone tells me not to do something, it makes me want to do it. I smoked for a while when I was 18, back before I believed anything could really harm me. It was fun and upset all the people I wanted to upset.

Schools Struggle with Vaping Explosion

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