Concrete-free washing machines are lighter to transport, just as good in a spin

http://newatlas.com/plastic-counterweight-washing-machine-concrete/50769/

by the-dude • 9 years ago

154 161 9 years ago

the-dude• 9 years ago

This seems to be such an incredible innovation, the questions arise : is it really feasible and why has it not happened before?

vbuwivbiu• 9 years ago

it's one of those ideas that seems so obvious and sensible in retrospect it makes you wonder how many other stupid designs are hidden in plain view, and why did this problem not get solved until 2017, when there are robots on Mars and probes orbiting Jupiter and Saturn ?

DiThi2• 9 years ago

I got this idea long ago but I couldn't think of a way of using this idea. Then I thought it was obvious and that it was not implemented for some non obvious reason I didn't know.

agumonkey6• 9 years ago

I'm already trying hard not to fall into full alankayism [1] and this only reinforces my view.

Jobs said that many people in companies are clueless...

[1] for people that never watched his talk where he demonstrates how pretty old and forgotten software can be, enjoy this fully https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2LZLYcu_JY

Matt_Mickiewicz• 9 years ago

Just think about the time gap between the invention of the wheel and until the 1970's when someone finally thought of attaching them to a suitcase!

dsfyu404ed• 9 years ago

Because it wasn't a priority. Plastic is more expensive than concrete. It's only now that "look how green we are" is able to tip the balance to where it's worth implementing.

If someone really wanted they could come up with a more complicated counterbalance solution and probably eliminate the dead weight entirely.

I really want to see how they came up with their numbers. I suspect that they're overly optimistic. +/-100lb isn't going to matter for fuel consumption in the last mile and the CO2 cost of picking up and replacing one that failed under warranty would likely negate many hundreds of machines worth of reduced fuel consumption before the last mile.

omtose• 9 years ago

I somewhat doubt that a hollow plastic tank is significantly more expensive than a concrete block. Factor in the added cost of shipping the much heavier concrete block, and it seems like the manufacturer would also save money in the process.

joezydeco5• 9 years ago

Well, it has, in other places. My kid had a basketball net playset that used a hollow base you would fill with water.

https://www.littletikes.com/item/612329/totsports-easy-score...

Now they recommend sand which probably would be less inclined to grow mold and bacteria in a warm enclosed environment.

My bigger question is: why do U.K. front loaders need a large counter vibration mass? My 10 year-old LG direct drive unit has no weights at all.

jaclaz5• 9 years ago

Well, concrete is solid and water is liquid.

I know it sounds obvious, but have you ever seen in your life a plastic flask or tank or jerry can that after several years leaked?

It is of course doable, but how durable will it be?

Imagine the kind of vibrations and shocks a jerry can used as a counterbalancing device in a relatively hot environment needs to bear.

A good, environment-friendly idea would be to make the concrete counterbalances a "standard" (in size and holes/bolting) and re-use them.

Nowadays in most countries (excluded the developing ones) the market for washing machine is almost exclusively a replacement one.

You get the new washing machine (without counterbalance) and you bolt on it the one from the old machine, and you save also the cost of the plastic water container.

LoSboccacc2• 9 years ago

make it metal, fill with sand

andy_ppp• 9 years ago

For those on the lazy web like me; the answer is fill a hollow plastic counter weight with water when the machine is installed rather than lug great slabs of concrete round the world.

rplst83• 9 years ago

That's like a huge "duh, why didn't they do that" sort of thing. Wow. Theoretically, they could probably make all of the free space in the washer part of a giant tupperware style container and allow filling of different compartments to precisely balance the machine.

ynniv5• 9 years ago

And the answer is... cheap computing power. If the plastic balance isn't full or leaks out, the spin cycle becomes extremely dangerous. Traditionally we used a system that was not prone to this kind of failure, but now that the cycle is computer controlled and we have cheap accelerometers we can use a more complicated but lighter alternative safely.

Murkin• 9 years ago

Only issue might be the container not being 100% full causing the water inside to slosh and increase the vibrations. (Probably not that hard to solve)

baybal23• 9 years ago

(Probably not that hard to solve)

Yeah, just throw a 2 channel PID controller and a bunch of servos. It most likely be rather cheap (sarcasm)

gpm• 9 years ago

It's a washing machine, it needs to be hooked up to a pressurized water pipe anyways. Just hook up the tank (before the valve) and it should always be completely full.

Retric3• 9 years ago

Concrete weighs 2.5 as much per given volume 150 vs 62 pounds per cubic foot. So, there are significant trade offs involved.

Also, adding a sealed water container creates a few more ways for these things to break down which was a larger concern when washing machines lasted ~5x as long.

jrs2352• 9 years ago

What if they used sand instead of water?

cm21872• 9 years ago

At the very least you could have removable concrete piece. What's hard to move is a big heavy thing. A big light thing and a small heavy thing are easier to transport.

J-dawg• 9 years ago

when washing machines lasted ~5x as long

Planned obsolescence is so damned depressing. Imagine how much CO2 and energy could be saved if washing machines simply lasted as long as they did 25 years ago (concrete counterweight or not!). It's sad to see these examples of how consumerism and marketing have actually reversed the progress of humanity.

Is it not possible to legally mandate a minimum level of quality for motors, bearings, repairability etc? I guess this stuff is incredibly hard to do without creating weird unintended consequences.

rasz2• 9 years ago

Washing machines are build to die by design now. Most disposable brands (Samsung, LG, Electrolux, Whirlpool, anything from supermarket) use specially selected unprotected alloy in the spider (part holding drum to the shaft).

http://www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/TD/TD-VIEWTHREAD.cgi?...

Fun fact - drum itself is stainless. Good brands (Miele) use stainless spider and are bulletproof.

blkhawk• 9 years ago

Newer washing machines have less concrete in them that before - My guess would be that in the past the water tank would have been to large to actually fit the machine.

I also wonder how the plastic will stand up to the vibrations. You might get leaks because the plastic will flex and eventually rupture from stress.

The reason why newer machines have less counterweight is that the motors are electronically regulated these days. That means you can partly dampen vibrations with the motor instead of with weights.

yoz-y• 9 years ago

3.5 kg of plastic is quite a lot though, I suppose it is because the tank is very thick.

chillingeffect• 9 years ago

Hell why not use rocks on a shelf?

p.s. have you heard of new washing machine motors that re-magnetize the stator between cycles? One high-torque config for agitation, then a high-speed config for spinning!

ratherbefuddled2• 9 years ago

I find innovations like this wonderfully elegant when they're so obvious in hindsight. It boggles the mind nobody thought of this before. There must be other problems with radically better obvious-in-hindsight solutions out there too.

avip• 9 years ago

What makes you think nobody thought of this before?

ratherbefuddled2• 9 years ago

To my knowledge nobody did it, and I can't see a reason why having had the idea it wouldn't be used.

GuB-42• 9 years ago

I think that many people thought of it. Water filled counterweights are used everywhere. That a washing machine uses water certainly helps making the connection.

But ideas are easy, implementation is hard. How to deal with the lower density of water, its tendency to slosh around, how is the tank filled, how is it emptied, how to prevent leaks, staleness, what if it is improperly filled, the costs and benefits.

These are all questions manufacturers have to answer. The University of Nottingham made a small step towards the solution by having a working prototype. But as hundreds of failed Kickstarter project show, there is a world between a prototype and mass production.

diroussel• 9 years ago

I wonder when active damping systems will come to washing machines. You'll need sensors to measure vibrations, a control unit and some small but fast actuator coupled to a small counter weight.

The technology shouldn't be much different to the noise cancelling earphones I'm wearing right now. But with a larger actuator.

ynniv5• 9 years ago

My current LG washer spins the drum at startup to detect balance and load, so it probably accomplishes some active balancing by modulating the drive motor during the spin cycle. This one still has a regular concrete balance though.

taneq• 9 years ago

Same, but I figured it was doing something more like:

    int speed = 0, retries = 0;
    for (int time = 0; time < SPIN_LENGTH; time++) {
      speed += speed < MAX_SPEED ? 1 : 0;
      if (read_shake_sensor() > TOO_MUCH_SHAKING) {
        time = speed = 0;
        if (++retries > MAX_RETRIES)
          break;
      }
      set_spin_speed(speed);
      sleep(1);
    }

quickben• 9 years ago

Take the vibration amplitude over time in all three directions. Take first and second derivative per axis. Send that to something mechanical to counter it.

lathiat3• 9 years ago

My 1400rpm Samsung front loader definitely does. Probably the higher spin speeds make it more necessary?

agumonkey6• 9 years ago

god dammit, yet another stupid idea I thought nobody would ever like.

ps: same goes for almost every dead weight transport. Road blocks, you name it.

Someone computes the wasted energy ?

pps: what about vertical axis spinning models ? I remember people saying they were inneficient. Anyone can explain ?

ppps: I remember a guy in africa coupling a dead bike to a vertical spinning container. sigh

Gracana• 9 years ago

Horizontal axis is better because it tumbles the clothes through a small puddle of water at the bottom. Vertical axis requires lots of energy to agitate, and a lot of water.

agumonkey6• 9 years ago

Yeah I just read about the need for swapping clothes in vertical axis, although people added fins to move them around. Interesting.

athenot• 9 years ago

My vertical axis washer uses probably as much as a horizontal one. The trick is in an improved impeller to properly agitate a full load in what's merely a puddle of water. Also the cycle starts with a pump spraying (recycled) water back into the basket so that all the clothes reach the same wetness therefore can have the same density and get impelled uniformly.

creeble5• 9 years ago

Is there actual evidence that consumer horizontal machines take less energy per cycle?

icebraining• 9 years ago

Water-filled road blocks are not new: https://www.trafficsafetystore.com/water-filled-barriers

agumonkey6• 9 years ago

Ah fair enough. It's just that this summer lots of roadwork around used very large concrete mdules.

taoufix• 9 years ago

I never knew washing machines had concrete in them :(

tim333• 9 years ago

Yeah, check out Secret Life Of Machines 104 The Washing Machine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baFaEvBywGc&feature=youtu.be...

they show what happens if you take the block out. Also how comercial machines do without it by balancing the load.

stevekemp• 9 years ago

Damn that takes me back! I used to love watch Secret Life of Machines, back in the 80s.

s0rce2• 9 years ago

The automatically filled pockets to balance industrial washing machines are very interesting.

rsynnott6• 9 years ago

Some very high-end ones use iron counterweights.

namdnay• 9 years ago

Only the cheaper ones use concrete I believe. High-end models use cast iron, because concrete will start to crack/crumble after 10 years

lumberjack• 9 years ago

I thought you were always supposed to take out the concrete block before moving the thing. It's usually very easy to do.

jmkd• 9 years ago

Somewhat tickled to say I thought of this about 10 years ago, told everyone who would listen, and many who wouldn't.

As I was not remotely interested in developing it myself I was happy to tell anyone. Got an audience with a designer at Dyson, gave it to him straight in the clearest most open terms imaginable, to be met by nonplussed disinterest.

Just kept it for cocktail parties since then.

amelius2• 9 years ago

I've been telling this for years every time I helped people move. The thought of patenting it crossed my mind, but I always assumed this would be "too simple" an invention, that companies probably already had figured out, but couldn't use because of some patent troll or something like that. Also, as a student, I didn't have the money for a patent application.

dingaling• 9 years ago

Also, as a student, I didn't have the money for a patent application.

That's the big probem for individuals.

Patenting as an individual is expensive and as a friend learned the big companies can just sit-tight until the renewal fees become too much to bear.

He had designed a self-assembly glassfibre astronomical observatory on the Buckmeister principle, with a wide-opening orifice using petal segments, and toured the major manufacturers in the field. None wanted to license the patent.

Shortly after he let the patent lapse due to cost, several of the manufacturers brought out their variants. That's just the way the game is played.

Leszek• 9 years ago

I imagine the difficulty here is not in coming up with the idea of using a water tank, but rather in designing the shape and material of a container that is sufficiently strong to survive the forces acting upon it.

ynniv5• 9 years ago

Did you build one to see if it worked? A used washing machine is essentially free. Perhaps the Dyson engineer knew that success in mechanical design of an everyday machine that's expected to take decades of abuse is somewhat more difficult than having a cool idea. We don't even know how long the professionally designed machine in the article will last.

slumberlust• 9 years ago

Had no clue what nonplussed was and went searching. Interesting read: http://www.punctuationmatters.com/nonplussed-definition/

tomcam• 9 years ago

I knew the correct definition so the story merely left me plussed.

andrewflnr• 9 years ago

Well, you're going to have a heck of a cocktail party story now.

pfranz• 9 years ago

Consumers care about 'plug and play' to a sometimes confusing degree. I've heard numerous stories about products made objectively worse to make it more appealing to consumers--pretty, but tasteless tomatoes, apples, and other produce are one example. I heard (a possibly apocryphal) story that bottled smoothie companies add questionable things to keep smoothies suspended because consumers prefer not to shake their drink before consuming.

I wouldn't be surprised if this was investigated internally at multiple companies, but decided consumers wouldn't like the extra steps. I've also had many apartments explicitly disallow containers of liquids larger than a few gallons (the obvious case is fish tanks) because of insurance and liability reasons.

I hope this is successful and takes off...but I can see still see it being rejected by consumers. Maybe these are the kinds of things where a regulation is the best course forward?

netsharc• 9 years ago

Plug and play? A washing machine already needs water input, it would be an interesting hack to pipe up the internals so that during the first run, it will first fill the ballast container, and only after that's full will the rest of the water be used for normal washing. And somehow make it so that the ballast container can be sealed off when it's full, maybe a tiny sliding door which will rise with the water, and when it's high enough, a magnet above it will pull it and seal the container shut.

And if you want to transport it, just add a mechanism that can release all the water... and also open that door.

resedit• 9 years ago

"We found it worked as good as a concrete counterweight, stopping the spinning drum from heavily vibrating the machine,"

Sorry to be off topic, but shouldn't it be "worked as well"? Not a native speaker, but it sounds strange.

Very interesting idea, though as many have pointed out, I'd be worried of leakage in the long run. A plastic container should be cheap to replace, however.

chrisseaton• 9 years ago

I think this is a UK article, but I think people in the USA often say 'good' when they mean 'well'. Maybe that's crossing the Atlantic now.

csydas• 9 years ago

This is likely correct - it's a common mistake in English on both sides of the Atlantic, and you are right that it should be "well". My clients from the UK use it about as frequently as my US clients.

mturmon• 9 years ago

You are right, proper usage is "well" there. It's an adverb, describing the way that the machine worked. "Good" is for adjectives, describing people, places or things.

Sometimes you will hear this mistake in speech (as opposed to written), and this was a quote. Even in speech, unless used for effect, that usage would (for better or worse) mark the speaker as less educated.

But if delivered with a bit of a foreign accent, all is forgiven ;-).

overcast• 9 years ago

Just remember Superman does good, you're doing well.

s-berwick• 9 years ago

Was posted on BBC a few weeks back and in the comments sections this was posted.

https://patents.google.com/patent/EP0326502A1/en

lathiat3• 9 years ago

He has another one where it seems it pumps water through a second reservoir. Looks like that expired recently so possibly why we are seeing this? (Far from a patent expert)

https://patents.google.com/patent/EP0707670B1/en?q=D06F37%2f...

chr4004• 9 years ago

Having a "dead weight" has it's advantages - passive, no bacteria, mold, flex, resistant to shock etc. Pretty sure billion dollar companies like Siemens have thought this through and came to the conclusion that concrete is best. The negative externality of a disappointed customer seems to be larger (medium term) than the damage being done by producing the concrete.

rsl7• 9 years ago

then fill it with concrete..

joezydeco5• 9 years ago

Manufacturers really don't care too much about shipping costs (and the secondary CO2 burden) once the machine leaves their loading dock. Their concern is to make the machine as cheaply as possible for the features involved and maximize the margin.

dx0342• 9 years ago

Costs are probably not that high anyway. For most logistic companies, volume determines capacity for trucks, not weight. Transporting a washing machine amongst other deliveries will not cost much more than other deliveries of that size (except for the additional fuel which is probably low). Carrying it in place can be done within minutes, not much longer than other deliveries.

That's probably also the reason why machines are cheap to buy online. If shipping was a constraint, buying at big stores would be cheaper.

Therefore, concrete can save some CO2 but probably not much cost. The cost of replacing faulty water tanks could be higher than the saved cost.

PatentTroll2• 9 years ago

This. The problem is that the costs of transportation are externalized to a shipper, and the environmental costs the shipper incurs are externalized to ... future generations? And the cost of the eventual replacement is externalized to the consumer ten years from now. It may be wise for us as a society to find ways to fully account for all costs of products to use market forces to make better decisions for society as a whole, rather than enriching a segment at the expense of another.

rplst83• 9 years ago

Better question - why can't we reuse the concrete blocks.

jakobegger• 9 years ago

Water has a density of 1000kg/m3 whereas concrete has a density of 2300kg/m3. Your washing machine will end up a bit bigger if you want the same counterweight.

Some washers even have cast iron counterweights (7000kg/m3).

lathiat3• 9 years ago

Because of better electronic regulation can probably get away with this easier now. Also front loaders seem to have taken over a lot of the market which maybe affects things?

rtkwe2• 9 years ago

The current concrete counterweights don't take up the full extra volume available in machines so switching to a less dense counterweight doesn't mean they'll have to increase the size of the machine overall.

trias• 9 years ago

what about sand? comes close to concrete but is easily (re)fillable.

s0rce2• 9 years ago

and never gets moldy

Bjartr• 9 years ago

My top loader has damping springs at the bottom and a plastic "balance ring"[1] around the top of the basket that's filled with fluid to reduce vibrations. Certainly no concrete anywhere in it, that I could see when I took the cover/case off anyway.

Though I've been having problems with it shaking too much during the spin cycle, so I wish it did have concrete.

[1] http://www.appliancepartspros.com/whirlpool-balance-ring-asm...

ars3• 9 years ago

Only front loaders have it. Top loaders don't spin fast enough to need it.

TheSpiceIsLife4• 9 years ago

I was of the understanding top loaders don't require it because the axis of spin is oriented such that, so long as the load is sufficiently balanced, it doesn't matter how fast it spins.

Front loaders have a harder time balancing the load due to the orientation of the drum, so require greater inertial mass to stabilise them.

creeble5• 9 years ago

Try replacing the springs, or checking to see if one is broken. Happened to me.

22 years, same washing machine.

italicbold• 9 years ago

"The plastic counterweight (right) could save around 45,000 tonnes of CO2 each year in the UK..."

How about we just make machines that last instead of having to be replaced all the time.

rsynnott6• 9 years ago

Because no-one wants to pay for that. Washing machines which last exist, but they're expensive. They use sturdier, more easily replaceable parts, higher quality motors and control systems, etc. And sometimes _iron_ counterweights (even more CO2 there).

You can get a washing machine that might last perhaps 5-10 years for about 200-300 euro... or a Miele one that'll probably last over 20 years for 1000 euro. It's a hard sell for most people.

Mister_Snuggles• 9 years ago

You can get a washing machine that might last perhaps 5-10 years for about 200-300 euro... or a Miele one that'll probably last over 20 years for 1000 euro. It's a hard sell for most people.

The other side of the coin is that the Miele will possibly do a better job than the cheaper model.

I used to buy $100 vacuum cleaners and just replace them when they break, which they usually did after a year or two. The last time one died on me I decided that I had had enough and bought a Miele. Not only will it last longer (the 10 year warranty guarantees that it will), it also does a much better job.

switch007• 9 years ago

My problem is that I'm willing to spend the money but I'm worried about getting burnt. It can be difficult to ascertain what product is worth spending money on and how much extra to spend exactly.

There is zero guarantee of spending more to get higher quality and longer life. It takes a lot of research.

You need to be really, really determined to follow the "Buy It For Life" way.

petra3• 9 years ago

1000 euros per 20 years = 50 euro per year.

250 euros per ~7.5 years = 33 euros per year.

See the problem ?

But also improving the reliability of washing machines isn't hard or expensive. Remember, you're talking about a machine that the most common source of problem with it is a broken/faulty lid switch. cheap and easy to fix.

Surely, with that level of engineered failure(or maybe extreme cost engineering), there's similar stuff hidden there.

seanp2k2• 9 years ago

There are also two schools of thought on spending more now vs spending twice. $1k now or $200 4-5 times obey the same course of time misses the opportunity cost -- pay $200 now then put the $800 into index funds. This also assumes that the $200 machine works as well as the $1k machine, which is very likely false. If it's rougher on your clothes and you must replace them more often, there's another hidden cost. If it's loud and keeps you up at night, it's harder to assign a dollar value to that. If you just hate using junky crap, again that's hard to assign a number to.

thinkcontext• 9 years ago

Why not both? They aren't mutually exclusive.

dx0342• 9 years ago

You also have to transport a machine if you move with furniture. Washing machines to me still appear to be one of the longest lasting appliances, I'd guess most replace the machine not because it's faulty.

code4tee• 9 years ago

This is one of those things where I'd have to think the washing machine companies have certainly thought of this and there's a reason they don't do it that's being left out of the article. It does seem like a good idea, but curious why it's not done already.

egeozcan• 9 years ago

Can't we just fix the damn things to the walls or floor? Maybe sell a separate, universal "base"?

lfowles• 9 years ago

I'd rather my _entire_ house not rumble when my washing machine has a heavy load :)

joezydeco5• 9 years ago

They'll eventually tear themselves apart, especially in a damp corrosive environment.

It's better to just find a solution to the vibration (which other machines have done).

Turing_Machine• 9 years ago

Commercial laundry equipment is generally bolted to a concrete pad full of rebar.

creeble5• 9 years ago

Is this a British thing?

I'm pretty sure my 22-year-old Kenmore washer doesn't have any concrete in it. I have it apart three or four times in 22 years for different maintenance (never costing more than $50 in parts) and it's not particularly heavy.

ars3• 9 years ago

No, not a British thing. But only front loaders need it, since old top loaders don't spin very fast.

Salamat• 9 years ago

So it is an old idea in a new usage.Water filled road barriers have been there for ages."The Jersey barrier, also called New Jersey wall, was developed in the 1950s (introduced in current form in 1959), at the Stevens Institute of Technology,[1] New Jersey, United States, under the direction of the New Jersey State Highway Department to divide multiple lanes on a highway". Wikifelia.

KGIII4• 9 years ago

Interestingly, they first used movable concrete barriers in the late 1940s, in California. The plastic ones came out in the late 60s. Some of them contain sand or concrete.

Err...

I modeled traffic. I spent as much time as I could being on-site for data collection. I've also spent way too much mental energy on learning about roads. This is because I am still largely a child, even though I'm old.

rplst83• 9 years ago

How about we just reuse the concrete blocks? They don't wear out do they?

KGIII4• 9 years ago

That seems rather inefficient and as though you'd want a standard across many models. I suspect it's worse than just crushing it up for reuse.

ouid• 9 years ago

"Concrete is bad for the environment due to the amount of CO2 released in its production"

While this might be true for very large scale pours, is it really true of washing machines? burning 1 kg of gasoline produces about 3 kg CO2. Producing 1 kg of cement produces < 1kg of CO2.

louithethrid• 9 years ago

Only slightly related- but is there research into genetic modified wood growth? As in - directly from a cell culture in a tank?

nextweek2• 9 years ago

Bad idea, you are shifting a problem at the transportation side to a repair nightmare.

How is having a bucket of water on top of electronics being violently shaken on a daily basis a good design?

londons_explore• 9 years ago

I'm going to guess this will go nowhere.

There is the human time to take the cover off and fill two massive water tanks, the cost of having plugs and caps for said tanks, the risk that they leak, the risk that they don't get filled and the machine vibrates to pieces, the fatigue risk (try designing a thin plastic tank to take >200 lbs of vibrational force), the risk of a new and unproven design, etc.

All of that only saves a few cents of extra gas for shipping the machines. Probably not worth it.

Probably the plastic tank cost is more expensive to manufacture than blocks of concrete anyway. Concrete is damn cheap.

avar• 9 years ago

Why not force companies to standardize the size and shape of the concrete counterweight, and mandate that it must be easily removable and you can't sell them bundled with the machines themselves?

Then you could simply remove it for transport, and it many cases reuse the one from your old machine, or buy a really cheap second-hand counterweight from your local hardware store.

Concrete-free washing machines are lighter to transport, just as good in a spin

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