My Failed Attempt at Engineering Love

https://themission.co/looking-for-the-one-how-i-went-on-150-dates-in-4-months-bf43a095516c

by sloanesturz • 9 years ago

148 152 9 years ago

themission.co

danjoc• 9 years ago

Reading this reminded me of a google doodle,

http://www.doodlehistory.com/2012/valentine-s-day-2012-on-fe...

tbirrell• 9 years ago

Problem number one, that girl in the opening picture has a ring on her left hand. Perhaps try again with single girls?

sillysaurus35• 9 years ago

Is it unethical to go out with someone that wants out of their marriage? A divorce is costly, takes a lot of time, and the relationship is usually dead long before the papers are finalized.

If there's trickery involved, then sure. But it's not quite so clear-cut. Where it gets murky is if you don't have a job, you're stuck -- it's very difficult to leave your marriage without at least attempting to find someone else before a divorce. But the alternative is to be a slave to your partner's whims, if the marriage is sufficiently toxic and unsalvageable.

smt882• 9 years ago

Regardless of the ethics, it's probably just not going to work out...

epmaybe• 9 years ago

Even in that case, why wear the ring in the picture? Edit: On second look, that picture looks to be a stock photo, not one of the dates the author went on.

mcjiggerlog• 9 years ago

If there's not trickery involved then they wouldn't be wearing a ring, surely?

watty4• 9 years ago

Yes, it is still unethical.

Where it gets murky is if you don't have a job, you're stuck -- it's very difficult to leave your marriage without at least attempting to find someone else before a divorce.

Are you saying that you should continue to live off of the spouse's salary while shopping on the side?

watwut6• 9 years ago

Yes it is unethical, but she is unethical more.

Pragmatically, if she dates you while wearing that ring, chances are she will date another dude while wearing your ring.

If you need to stay on toxic relationship because of money, it is hard to leave, but not because you did not dated on the side. It is because you need to arrange living and job (or shelter). People in toxic relationships tend to be emotionally drained.

smt882• 9 years ago

Seems like a stock photo to me

_e2• 9 years ago

I did not read the whole post yet but it could be a picture of his fiance. I could not quickly find the source of the image through google image search [0]. What are the odds?

[0] http://www.google.com/search?q=https%3A%2F%2Fcdn-images-1.me...

Etheryte• 9 years ago

It's a stock photo, you're reading into it too much. I doubt the guy went on a date and then asked the gal to strike a pose: "I'm writing an article about how I'm dating 150 girls, can you please pose for a photograph?"

mamon• 9 years ago

He did online dating, meaning all the girls had already published their photos in the internet before he met them. Just right click and "Save as" would do the trick, if he really wanted to include real photos in the article :)

But yes, I also think that's a stock photo.

idlewords• 9 years ago

Somewhere out there is a girl spamming the hell out of online dating services, looking for this dude. Let's hope when their bots meet, they're programmed to exchange numbers.

dudul• 9 years ago

That would be the most romantic story IMO.

tpeo2• 9 years ago

Truly, the romantic comedy for the late 2010s.

Actually, could be a nice quirky film - and profitable too. Romcoms are cheap to shoot. We're past peak American-romantic-comedy (I think) so the whole "ugh, not another one" factor might be actually pretty low in 2017. So yeah, could be pretty nice.

garrybelka• 9 years ago

It's a nice example of looking for the keys under the light aka if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

A bit more interesting analogy would be the Big Data craze. We do them because we can. Are the results produced by Big Data as relevant as the dating automation? Do we understand and handle them as effectively as 150 dates with zero involvement? And what do we miss instead? Whose time and place is taken by getting lost in superficial data oceans?

Danihan3• 9 years ago

"150 dates without success" --> what happens when engineering meets the red pilled world of dating.

jandrese3• 9 years ago

Seems like the problem was that his bot didn't filter very well and ended up matching him with tons of people that he had to instantly reject on the date.

I wonder if there is a mentality problem here too. He had invested so little into each date that there was little incentive to put in the effort to pierce the surface and look for common interests.

Going on 150 dates and not finding a single match tells me that you are shooting outside of your league. Your perfect match could do better than you, and is already taken anyway.

opportune• 9 years ago

Yeah, either his "optimal" picture made him look a lot better than he looked in person, his personality was off, or he was really picky. 150 dates in a place like the bay area, where probably lots of his dates had something in common with him (blogging, tech, etc.) and not being satisfied with any that liked him back? That seems crazy to me.

notadoc5• 9 years ago

Going on 150 dates and not finding a single match tells me that you are shooting outside of your league.

Total nonsense attitude. You should never feel "outside of your league" for many reasons, particularly since you never know who you are compatible with. Don't be afraid to aim high in a partner.

Karrot_Kream• 9 years ago

Sometimes we get so wrapped up in could, that we don't spend the time to ask if we should.

projectramo• 9 years ago

151st date is the charm.

This is a bit like living in NYC for both parties: there is so much volume that you can't get past the first minor disappointment.

I think the volume prevents you from focusing on one person to figure out what you want.

You might want to focus some kind of algo on the second part of the dating: selection.

Don't just go on your gut or how you felt after the date. You need multiple dates to figure that out.

ice1092• 9 years ago

NYC dating: water water everywhere but none that I'll drink more than a sip of in anticipation of finding a better glass. paradox of choice indeed.

nerdponx• 9 years ago

I’m a fat, bald, short guy whose only quality is that he isn’t an ax murderer.

Cart before the horse. Also, smiley faces are kinda creepy in your first message.

thomasjudge• 9 years ago

There was this a few years ago

https://www.wired.com/2014/01/how-to-hack-okcupid/

theparanoid• 9 years ago

Step 1, for success, is moving away from the Bay Area.

notadoc5• 9 years ago

Step 1, for success, is moving away from the west coast

FTFY.

I'm not joking either, for straight single men they will certainly have better odds in the midwest or south. Demographics plus minor cultural differences matter.

pm908• 9 years ago

Not true. LA definitely has a lot of the kind of women that nerdy engineers like: career focused, successful, intelligent etc.

vinhboy• 9 years ago

Wow, the data point about rape is an interesting tangent. I guess with people like 45 and all the stories from Silicon Valley, it's not that surprising. But sad none the less.

Maybe we can follow the OP's lead and use technology to automate data collection around this and come up with better solutions.

patrickg_zill2• 9 years ago

I think that he needs to improve his conversation skills first.

8_hours_ago• 9 years ago

This reminds me of a very humorous high frequency dating story https://web.archive.org/web/20170325010439/http://robrhineha...

(previously discussed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6773841)

dnautics• 9 years ago

Opens with the secretary problem and shows no evidence of actually following the algorithm.

gricardo99• 9 years ago

I'm guessing because the secretary problem doesn't have this twist:

Dating is like enterprise sales. When your customer goes for a competing, more compelling product, you’re never told and you don’t get any feedback.

jared666• 9 years ago

Maybe learn how to treat another human like a human and step out of his own head for a second, might work better than 'engineering' love

swagasaurus-rex2• 9 years ago

Platitudes won't teach somebody how to be more dateable.

vertex-four3• 9 years ago

Ehh... the issue is mostly that online dating doesn't go very well for the vast, vast majority of people. On the other hand, I know plenty of not-particularly-attractive people who've met partners through all sorts of weird and whacky situations.

Fact of the matter is that finding potential partners, like finding anyone, is about constantly growing the network of people you interact with. I meet new people nearly every week through various communities I'm part of and organise. Many of them stay that way, just "part of my community", some of them become great friends, and very few become partners. You're unlikely to manage that while working 80 hours a week, going to the bar once or twice a week, and otherwise not being involved in much.

Also, speaking personally... the sort of person who thinks it's fun to spend their time automating personal interaction is not the sort of person I want to date.

ice1092• 9 years ago

Also, speaking personally... the sort of person who thinks it's fun to spend their time automating personal interaction is not the sort of person I want to date.

forgive me for waxing poetical but i've thought about this a lot - since i have tinder and okcupid accounts - online dating is one of the most nihilistic enterprises to come out of the digital revolution. take one of the most personally rewarding and edifying experiences and completely formalize one of the most exciting parts of it (if not the most). what becomes the point of your life???

i read a stupid platitude somewhere that you should do something that scares you every day and approaching people you're attracted to (not on the street you pua twats) is one of the few "scary" things still available to us as denizens of modernity (i'm not sailing over the ocean blue, summiting mt everest, hunting moby dick, etc.). why would you want to sidestep that.

gorkonsine6• 9 years ago

online dating is one of the most nihilistic enterprises
approaching people you're attracted to (not on the street you pua twats) is one of the few "scary" things still available to us as denizens of modernity

Online dating is good for people who simply have NO other avenue to meet people. If you're not supposed to try to pick up people on the street, then where would you apply this advice? Work? I don't know about you, but I'm a software engineer, so there's no single women at my workplace. School? I graduated quite some time ago, and work now. Church? Like many technologists, I'm irreligious (and I wouldn't want to date a religious woman anyway; been there, done that). Extracurricular activities? Sure, but the number of single women at these things tends to be pretty small, so it's a LOT of effort for very low odds of success. Any many of my interests just don't have very many single women participating anyway.

The simple fact is, online dating offers a way for people to meet who otherwise simply wouldn't. This problem isn't new either; ever hear of "singles mixers"? Those were around long before the WWW came about. Online dating just moves that kind of thing online, and gives you a way of screening people before taking your time to meet them in person so you can make sure you're at least a little compatible. The main problem I personally see with online dating is that there aren't enough people using it (esp. female, they're far more reluctant to use it and see it as a point of shame), and there's too many different competing services. Oh yeah, and all the liars too. But that's nothing new, men picking up women in bars have been lying about themselves forever too.

morgtheborg3• 9 years ago

take one of the most personally rewarding and edifying experiences and completely formalize one of the most exciting parts of it (if not the most). what becomes the point of your life???

Yea, so the early part of dating may be the most "exciting", but that's not why I date. I find that love goggle time period to be a huge waste of time when 6 months to 1 year later you realize you're completely incompatible on core issues. God help the people who got married during that time period.

Online dating let's you pre-screen for basic compatibility before meeting (and confirming physical interest). It keeps you from making silly mistakes with people who can't make you happy long term.

tthisk• 9 years ago

In my opinion going on a date is also too big of an investment to find out whether or not you 'match' with somebody. When you are at a party you can potentially speak to 10 (20 maybe even 30) women/men in one night, and probably find out that you do not match with 90% of them. If you are using apps like Tinder it will take you 10 nights to date 10 women/men, which is a significantly bigger time investment. Recently I was thinking about this figured out that this is probably the reason none of my friends, who actively use dating apps, have gained any significant relationships using them. This doesn't mean they are not good for anything. However people should be more aware of this and realise that though it seems easier to find meaningful relationships using these apps, it can also make it significantly harder.

the_af3• 9 years ago

I suppose it's a compromise. Using your example, a LOT of people simply don't enjoy going to parties with rooms full of people to try and talk to maybe 30 women/men in one night. Sometimes they find it boring, sometimes they get anxious, sometimes they find it intimidating and wouldn't know how to signal interest without being weird (parties can be confusing that way; most people aren't there to meet a date or hook up). Contrast it with Tinder and similar apps: while people sometimes pretend "a friend installed Tinder on my phone, I never use it!", everyone knows what everyone else is there for, and what they're signalling when they swipe right or start chatting with someone.

morgtheborg3• 9 years ago

Huh, I suppose it depends on what you're looking for. Getting in depth about politics, religion, attitudes towards rearing children, commitment to finding a partner, etc. doesn't tend to be appropriate at parties (since most people are there for a good time, not to find a partner), but they are perfectly appropriate online dating chats.

I don't find it hard to find attractive, fun people who want to date me. I find it hard to find a partner; online dating it takes me usually 2-4 months. IRL it can be years.

notadoc5• 9 years ago

Not a bad strategy even if it didn't work, dating is often purely a numbers game.

Meet as many people as possible, be as social as possible, create as many opportunities to meet new people as possible.

Also if you're a single male and you want to meet a female partner, I'd recommend moving away from the west coast. The south and midwest have far more women, and a generally friendlier culture which can make the entire meeting/dating process a bit easier.

gorkonsine6• 9 years ago

The women in the South are generally far more religious and conservative. West-coast men might not be too interested in that stuff.

The "friendlier culture" of the South thing is a myth. They're not that friendly to people who don't fit their preferred mold.

Source: grew up in the South. There's a reason so many young people move out of the South as soon as they can.

pm908• 9 years ago

The "friendlier culture" of the South thing is a myth. They're not that friendly to people who don't fit their preferred mold.

Heh... Ain't that the truth.

Completely anecdotally, I got a LOT more Tinder matches when I was in the West/East Coast than in my home state of Texas (I'm a Nonwhite Male).

_m8fo2• 9 years ago

From my friend group there are two types of individuals:

1. Individuals who date many people, breaking up if they find something non-optimal. These include minor things like, not cleaning up on occasion, or not liking something you do.

2. Someone who dates very few (1-3) individuals, sticking with them until a serious, fatal flaw appears, like being racist or physically harming others, etc.

If you define a successful dater as someone who has both longevity and quality in a single relationship then Group 2 has far more success in their relationships, in my experience.

swiley2• 9 years ago

Group 1 is mostly women and group 2 is mostly men.

At least in my experience.

dwaltrip2• 9 years ago

Unless the majority of people you know are gay, that isn't possible.

For each hetero man you know following strategy 2, by definition, there is a corresponding woman (his partner).

And vice versa with the women who are using strategy 1.

KGIII• 9 years ago

That doesn't mimic my own experiences. The wajority of women that I have known well enough to observe have been willing to put up with a lot of nonsense. The majority of men that I have had the chance to observe, have had more partners.

Hell, I'm a nice guy and I'm not even sure why the missus puts up with me. (I try to get her to use at least one obscenity a day. Old ladies who swear crack me up.)

I do wonder if this a generational thing? I'm kinda old.

morgtheborg3• 9 years ago

Not in my experience.

dhfhduk• 9 years ago

Not really disagreeing with you, but your conclusion is almost necessarily true, which says something about Strategy 1.

One thing on my mind lately is how often people convert from one strategy to another, and how that's patterned and why.

gorkonsine6• 9 years ago

1. Individuals who date many people, breaking up if they find something non-optimal. These include minor things like, not cleaning up on occasion, or not liking something you do.

There's a lot of iPhone users who fit this profile:

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/single-iphone-owners-dont-w...

watwut6• 9 years ago

What about people who date few individuals (2-3), break up 1-2 times and their partners were neither closet racists nor violent nor anything that grave. That would describe majority of people I know.

_m8fo2• 9 years ago

well, the definition of a "fatal flaw" depends on the individual. even falling "out of love" with someone is obviously a fatal flaw which is probably the most common.

Freestyler_3• 9 years ago

"how did you meet that guy?" -Ow, he had a bot on tinder and I responded to it.

Not the most romantic guy, despite his date ideas. Approach a person in public with a tape recorder, so you can just wind it back and go to the next woman.

45h34jh53k4j2• 9 years ago

I find this creepy and weird. How could you possibly tell the love of your life (if and when you found that person) that they were nothing more than a toy in your little data harvesting exercise.

45h34jh53k4j2• 9 years ago

Also -- here is a good moral thermometer:

"PS: I will not open-source the code since it could be used to hurt people, but I might share it if you ask nicely."

If you write code for fun (not commercially owned IP), and you are not willing to share it because 'it could hurt people', you might want to re-evaluate if you should write it in the first place.

gorkonsine6• 9 years ago

Personally I think his approach here was really awful, but for this particular thing you could argue that the code is OK if used by one person, or a very tiny number of people, but if it were used by many people it'd be a big problem. There's a lot of things like that.

notadoc5• 9 years ago

I think anyone who has been single long enough to experience the soul-draining tedious world of modern dating could understand and appreciate a way to optimize any part of matchmaking.

Also, I think "speed dating" is just a less geeky version of this.

joshschreuder• 9 years ago

Glad I'm not the only one... I mean I get the 'hacker' appeal of this, and why it's on HN, but at the same time it's so impersonal and weird to message that many people.

I can't see how almost all of the HUMAN BEINGS on the other end wouldn't find their treatment in this exercise at least a little bit disturbing.

belorn2• 9 years ago

Interesting article, but in the context of serious process and scientific methods, the rape statistics quoted in the article is the exact opposite. The "1 in 5 US women is estimated to be raped before age 25" comes from a single study where they did a voluntary survey in one US university campus. It reflecting of the set of students during that year on that campus that decided to answer that survey. The national average today could be 1 in 5, it could be much more or much less.

Jarwain• 9 years ago

Not entirely true, from what I understand. The statistic has been replicated in polls and surveys across various college campuses. The OP's representation, and yours, is a little clunky but makes rational sense to me.

His quote is "1 in 5 US women are estimated to be raped before the age of 25". This statistic is based on surveys conducted by the graduates of various colleges and universities. My understanding of the results are: of all the responding women, roughly 20% claim to have been raped. If the sample of women attending University and/or responding is representative of the population as a whole, then the original claim makes sense.

More to the point, refuting the single study, voluntary survey at one US university campus.

Washington Post-Kaiser Family Foundation Poll. "the poll surveyed a random national sample of 1,053 women and men ages 17 to 26 who were undergraduates at a four-year college — living on campus or nearby — or had been at some point since 2011. They attended more than 500 colleges and universities, public and private, large and small, elite and obscure, located in every state and the District of Columbia." [...] "5 percent of men and 20 percent of women said they had been sexually assaulted in college" http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/local/2015/06/12/1-in-5-wom...

Campus Climate Survey Validation Study " Surveys were completed by more than 23,000 undergraduate students (approximately 15,000 females and 8,000 males). The average response rate across all nine schools was 54% for females and 40% for males" https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/ccsvsftr.pdf

Danihan3• 9 years ago

Sexual assault != rape.

Case in point, I've had a random person grab my junk at a gay bar. Technically that's sexual assault, but it's a pretty far cry from rape.

belorn2• 9 years ago

The Campus Climate Survey Validation Study has on page 18 a summery of the result for undergraduate females during 2014-2015 in the 9 schools:

Estimated sexual assault: Averaged 10.3%, and ranged from 4.2% at School 2 to 20.0% at School 1.

Estimated sexual battery: Average 5.6% , and ranged from 1.7% at School 2 to 13.2% at School 1.

Estimated rape: Average 4.1%, and ranged from 2.2% at School 9 to 7.9% at School 5.

Across the nine participating schools, 4.3% of sexual battery incidents and 12.5% of rape incidents were reported by the victim to any official.

So according to it, the average rape on those 9 schools were 4.1%, but only 0.5% were reported. If we accept those numbers (54% response rate, common location and (likely) background, generational age), we have that out of 150 women that this article talk about, 6 women is estimated to have been raped, in contrast to the initial assertion of 30. The "1 in 5" study was a good signal that further studies was needed. The CCSVS can be seen as a good start of such further studies. The range difference of 400% between school 9 and 5 do say that we need to be careful and bigger studies/meta studies is needed to remove outlines and get averages and median value. In the mean time I suggest the nice and round number 5%, or if the assume that the above numbers are exclusive (uncertain if thats true), 20% that a undergraduate will be victim of some form of sexual misconduct.

mywittyname• 9 years ago

So, when will pydate be available on github?

cJ0th• 9 years ago

From solely reading the headline I had no idea how far the author took this. Kudos for this very interesting piece of "research"!

I am surprised by the horrible outcome, though, since meeting 150 women is quit a lot. I'd have expected to see at least a short-term relationship coming out of this. It's almost like those generic (but in no way bad) messages exclusively attract the "wrong" women.

Danihan3• 9 years ago

150 women seems like a lot... but not if you have a persona that turns most women off.

Women are giving him a chance. He is simply not meeting their expectations of being fun / exciting / confident / funny / whatever.

bravura• 9 years ago

Slight tangent, but how do you script interaction with a mobile app like Tinder?

For the web, you use a headless browser. But what about automating interaction with mobile?

swiley2• 9 years ago

People have reverse engineered the API, there are libraries for it on github.

_e2• 9 years ago

Bingo. Use wireshark to identify the protocol and if it is http then use mitmproxy.

d4nt• 9 years ago

Pure speculation: you could run an Android VM and used an automated testing framework to drive it

ourmandave• 9 years ago

This is like the reverse version of Ashley Madison fembots.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/ashley-madison-admits-...

wolco3• 9 years ago

It's like the programmer who applies to 150 jobs. The programmer cannot do the research on all 150 so the interviews lack the personal connection. Far better to focus on the 10 you really want do the research and put in the effort to really wow the interviewer.

rockostrich• 9 years ago

I don't think the comparison to applying to jobs works. When applying to jobs you have a pretty sizable knowledge of the companies. When online dating, you know very little about each person (the amount of data varies greatly depending on the service and person). You can't know if you're going to like someone until you meet them in person, but you can have a pretty good idea of whether or not you're going to like a company by researching online.

wolco3• 9 years ago

If the dating site allows publicly linking to social media profiles or if you have a real name/number you can do a little research. Identifying common interests or topics to avoid can be helpful.

In my experience you don't really know if you are going to like the new job until after you have been working for a period of time. Research can give you clues but sometimes judging what the position will be like by how it sounds or by what you think you want can backfire. Many times the job changes the moment you are hired or shortly after. The only constant I've found is if you don't have a phone on your desk you will have time to actually do the work which will generally make most people happier.

monksy4• 9 years ago

Far better to focus on the 10 you really want do the research and put in the effort to really wow the interviewer.

Sounds like you haven't been on online dating before.

wolco3• 9 years ago

I have and been successful but maybe things have changed in the last 10 years.

You never meet someone right away, first you instant message on the platform. At some point you move into a chat program offsite and in a month you started talking on the phone. 6 months later you meet. Over that half year you develop a friendship when you meet you have tons to talk about. The buildup adds excitement and unless you look nothing like your picture your looks are already accepted and seeing you in person increases that attraction.

If you try to rush the process you better have outstanding physical qualities or great style or money or luck because every relationship needs a base. You are better off going to a local minecraft meetup. Everyone attending will feel they have someone in common and you can build off of that.

Start by building a low risk relationship with daily contact points. That will create the base for a successful friendship which is what you need for a successful relationship.

Kalium2• 9 years ago

Online dating has the wrinkle that focusing on the 10 you really want and putting in the effort to really wow the interviewer doesn't always produce a higher success rate. The rise of Tinder has accentuated this.

jeffwass3• 9 years ago

"I became an online dating magician who knew how to optimize a profile — A/B testing pictures and message. If I changed my profile picture and got more “likes” as a result, that meant it was better. I was tracking data, which made it easy to see what performed best.
This one worked, probably because it hides the bulging stomach and the balding head."

No, your A/B test doesn't mean it's 'better', unless you're counting only number of first dates.

But you keep talking about finding "The One".

So here's some unsolicited advice - you are optimising the wrong variable.

If you're really looking for "The One", instead optimise number of dates that remain interested in you after the first or later, not maximising the number of first dates.

And along this line - use a picture that is more representative of yourself? If you're worried about potential dates being turned off by the bald head and bulging stomach, won't they be turned off when they meet you in person?

At that point it becomes game theory, do you aim for more first bites with lower followup success, in hopes that your personality shines through?

Do you cast a wide net, as you're doing, and exert a LOT of effort with first dates hoping you don't risk losing a potential "the one"?

Or should you be yourself from the beginning, "happy to be a hippo" so to speak[1]. You'll probably get fewer first bites, but ones that get through have shown they don't care about your balding head and bulging stomach.

Though I haven't been on the dating scene in 16 yrs, so take my advice with a grain of salt.

[1] https://www.quora.com/What-does-happy-as-a-hippo-mean

monksy4• 9 years ago

You can't find "the one" without having a good conversion rate from your audience. Also, some of dating is about finding your hidden biases and becoming better the next time about being honest about them.

Someone• 9 years ago

You need a both a good conversion rate from the part of the audience where you stand a decent chance of success in the long run and a sufficiently large number of 'samples'.

I think https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/publication/why-do-... discusses somewhat the same problem in a different context. It concludes:

"Finally, this approach suggests an answer to the question in the title. Far-fetched tales of West African riches strike most as comical. Our analysis suggests that is an advantage to the attacker, not a disadvantage. Since his attack has a low density of victims the Nigerian scammer has an over-riding need to reduce false positives".

Difference here is that most people wouldn't get the false positive ratio that the typical scammer gets so you probably should try a bit harder to look good on a dating site. I think hiding your baldness goes too far, though.

I think those who have a large amount of false positives know this. If, say, you need a wheelchair to move around, almost everybody would know it doesn't make sense to hide that, if the goal is to get into a relationship.

udkl• 9 years ago

My go-to resource for relationship and marriage advice is the waitbutwhy article - https://waitbutwhy.com/2014/02/pick-life-partner.html and Mark Manson's website - https://markmanson.net/relationship-advice

pm908• 9 years ago

If you're worried about potential dates being turned off by the bald head and bulging stomach, won't they be turned off when they meet you in person?

Depends on what they are looking for, really. You would be surprised at how many PEOPLE, both men and women, are lonely and looking for companionship. And its very easy to swipe but meeting in person you tend to notice other attractive qualities.

I agree it is misleading and a little deceptive though. Personally, I don't do it, but I'm trying to explain how it may not be the worst thing in the world to do it.

jeffwass3• 9 years ago

I know what your saying, but unless I misinterpreted, the author was lamenting how most of his 150 first dates were a waste of his time.

so that's where he has to decide.

150 dates with potentially little bite, or maybe 10 (or less?) dates where his worries are almost guaranteed not to be an issue. Of course zero first dates is not good either.

Given his interest in experimenting like this, I'd be curious to see if he did a follow up using the above strategy.

Kalium2• 9 years ago

Or should you be yourself from the beginning, "happy to be a hippo" so to speak[1]. You'll probably get fewer first bites, but ones that get through have shown they don't care about your balding head and bulging stomach.

You're absolutely right! People should be filtering for quality over quantity! That said, is it possible you're running on the assumption that the people we're concerned with here can reasonably expect to believe they will find a result-set with such a strategy?

For a lot of people, the situation they're in is that they've been themselves for quite a long time now and are getting few-to-no bites. The suggestion that they should double down on this strategy is thus somewhat less than maximally appealing.

pm908• 9 years ago

I 100% agree with being oneself but there are some unfortunate human pitfalls which prevents human beings from communicating their true value to others quickly and in an attractive manner. e.g. A guy may be kinda sorta balding, but he might turn out to be the best dad in the world. How is he supposed to convey that value to his potential mates?

This is why I recommend at least paying lip service to notions of fashion and social behavior. One doesn't need to become an outgoing extrovert, only to be able to use the signals that society associates with attractive mates. For males, this is: confidence, good style and posture, hygiene etc.

SebastianStadil• 9 years ago

Thanks for the advice, Jeff.

I didn't have too much trouble getting to the second or third dates, and you are correct in that the goal of the least bad profile pic was to get myself in a position to have my humor work for me ("personality shine through").

Perhaps the most controversial part of the process was treating dating like a hiring process, kind of like picking a co-founder.

jeffwass3• 9 years ago

Thanks Sebastian for the interesting writeup.

Glad you had many second or third dates. My impression from the article was that most were first-only dates.

I mentioned this in a comment below - given your scientific approach and A/B testing to data, I'd be quite curious to know how it would work out if you tried my suggestion.

Ie - a 'normal' photo of yourself, not intentionally or overly bad, but not a cherry-picked one that tries to hide the features you were worried about.

Someone who responded to me below thinks you wouldn't get any swipes. I have exactly zero Tinder experience, but in my naive opinion I think and hope you'd get at least a few.

And you could rest reasonably assured that those dates that do come through won't care much about those features.

And maybe the knowledge that they swiped anyway would put you more at ease on the date, to let your humour and personality shine through even brighter.

dlevine• 9 years ago

+1 million

I've done a lot of dating over the years, and have discovered that the most important thing is finding someone who likes me for who I am. At various points I went on so many dates that I worried that the right person wasn't out there, or that maybe I was meeting her and not knowing it.

The truth is that it's hard to find someone who is a good match, especially by the time you get into your 30s and have a fair bit of life experience. If you meet your partner at 30 vs 20, you have lived 50% longer and had a lot more experiences that have shaped your preferences.

But it definitely can be done. I've noticed that a fair number of people who were perpetually single eventually met the right person and settled down in their 30s or even 40s (I just went to the wedding of a friend who is in his mid-40s).

Kenji• 9 years ago

Modern dating is a mystery to me. What a laborious and painful way to sift through people when the most likable people come into your life when you least expect it.

notadoc5• 9 years ago

when the most likable people come into your life when you least expect it.

There is often truth to that, but you have to put yourself into scenarios where that is more likely to happen. Be social, meet as many people as possible, etc.

the_af3• 9 years ago

It's doubly difficult for loners and introverts who do not necessarily enjoy meeting as many people as possible, yet would like a partner to share their lives with.

iblaine• 9 years ago

This is not creepy at all.

ensiferum• 9 years ago

Go to south America.latin women are amazing. Feminine smile a lot good looking and full of flirt. Ofc you need to speak Spanish but it's easy to learn! 8)

the_af3• 9 years ago

That's an awful stereotype. Also, there is no "South America"; there are countries in South America, each with a different culture and dating strategies, some more traditional and conservative, some less. If you try dating in a conservative South American country (or city, because yes, it varies from city to city!), you'll find dating extremely difficult. Source: I'm from a country in South America.

apricot• 9 years ago

Successful attempt at engineering cringe.

patrickg_zill2• 9 years ago

Thinking about it some more, the scripted interactions didn't work because they seemed too much like begging, especially after the 2nd message, when a normal person would have simply stopped communication with a non-responder.

There was no mystery or enigmatic friction created in his scripted messages. Nothing to raise the "buying temperature" or whatever you want to call it.

Also a head and shoulders shot with no context is as bland as can be. At least 1 shot should have been with an outside interest, like, with your dog (if you have one) or with friends showing you enjoying yourself. By adding such photos, I am willing to guess his responses would have been better.

dizzystar• 9 years ago

Any automated process that depends on human interaction is going to fail, whether it is seeking a job, finding a date.

The big flag here is, after 20 dates, defeat begets defeat. You can't automate success.

Plus, the profile picture sounds a bit like a lie. Anyone who's done online dating is familiar with the angels needed to hide body-type. Of course, no one is going to be happy to see someone who doesn't look like what the photo envisioned.

lcall2• 9 years ago

My stepdaughter went on 100 dates while in her teens (like, while aged 16-18), to get to know a variety of people (clean, usually double dates). She married ~#72 and they're doing very well, like, idyllic, after some years (she has blogs about raising their children). Anyway, while still a teen, she had an ebook published about why those 100 dates were a good idea, with 365 ideas for free or inexpensive dates:

https://deseretbook.com/p/date-day-365-ideas-lds-teens-teen-...

~$3. For what it may be worth from a relative. (You have to install the publisher's free ebook app, to read it though.)

(edit: I found eHarmony's approach, though not really their IT department, to work really well for me.)

lcall2• 9 years ago

A correction/ps, too late to edit: there is also apparently a kindle edition of the $3 "365 date ideas", so no niche app needed (though that's a nice app too, i have it):

https://www.amazon.com/Date-Day-Ideas-Teens-Teen-ebook/dp/B0...

noveltyaccount• 9 years ago

I’m a fat, bald, short guy whose only quality is that he isn’t an ax murderer... But I’m bad at small talk, and I jump too fast to intellectual conversations, making it awkward.

None of the engineering addressed root causes. Solve the confidence first, and then hack your way to a better physique, and maybe pick up some interests that are universal and easy to chat about.

logfromblammo3• 9 years ago

> ...isn't an ax murderer...
...hack your way to a better physique...

Got it. Buying an axe ASAP... ~

watwut6• 9 years ago

The attempt seems to lack any attempt to recognise the one or reflect what it is that he looks for in a girl. Whether the first meeting is fun and engaging and whether you two can be together long term are very different things.

I also think that sending three messages in three days despite being ignored selects shared traits in the group. I mean, he said he is shy but acted super active sociable and needy online. So he might be selecting girls who look for needy dude or want dude who is highly sociable. Instead, shy introverted dude who need excell to figure out inappropriate thing to say appeared. That can't be match.

patkob• 9 years ago

How a Math Genius Hacked OkCupid to Find True Love (wired.com)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7099855

criddell• 9 years ago

I think he actually found the love of his life and hasn't realized it. Turns out, it's a Python script.

mynegation• 9 years ago

That reminded me of my wife's friend who wrote a book[1] about her experience of outsourcing dating. Being a woman she has the reverse problem of too many suitors. She outsourced the vetting process and initial conversation to the hired assistants (yes, plural), with mixed success.

In my experience any kind of scenario where friction is removed (never have been on tinder, but I would imagine it is even more pronounced than a crowded bar) leads to that kind of imbalance. One of tradeoffs that might work for some males is to put themselves into a kind of situations that puts them next to females for a prolonged amount of time. School, work, and neighbours are classic, but that also includes dance schools, sports, and frequent parties with mutual friends. Women are much more likely to spend time with you if they feel like they already know you a bit.

[1] http://datingvandalized.com/

Grue3• 9 years ago

This is a depressing read. Here we have a "startup founder" (=relatively wealthy), who isn't that bad-looking, using a complicated script to massively increase his opportunities and he still can't get a date. Is there even hope for the rest of us?

amackera• 9 years ago

Haha well he got plenty of dates (150 of them), he just never found that special someone.

TBH I think his problem was that he didn't quality his leads well enough.

vertex-four3• 9 years ago

Yes, there is hope. Don't work your life away, and actually get out and do things. Places I've met people: roleplaying groups, kink communities, hobby-related conferences and workshops, local events, completely random social IRC channels. It can take just one off-hand comment on a shared interest to lead to a conversation and a spark.

Also note that the sort of person who finds enjoyment in automating away social interaction is unlikely to be enjoyable to socially interact with.

elterago• 9 years ago

if author is reading this - unsolicited advice: hit the gym, lose the gut. As for the balding head - shave it! Surprising numbers of females dig it.

And kudos for charity donation! Good luck

jyriand• 9 years ago

Cant't read the story, submitted link is redirecting to medium.com.

ricardobeat• 9 years ago

Looks like the article has now been deleted - it also disappeared from google amp cache.

pw• 9 years ago

It seems like he might have been better off working on his social skills than his date generating machine.

angryasian• 9 years ago

how did he interact with mobile tinder ?

notyourday• 9 years ago

He was solving a wrong problem using a wrong set of tools. He clearly stated that what he wanted was a walking womb however what he offered in his profile was something else. No engineering optimization would make someone who wants a steak happy in a place offering omakase.

anotherevan• 9 years ago

I love that down in the comments he was asked if any of those 150 dates resulted in him getting laid, and his response was, "44.7%"

tuxguy• 9 years ago

The original link seems to be redirecting to medium.com.

This is the correct link, if OP or admin can fix it https://medium.com/the-mission/looking-for-the-one-how-i-wen...

streetdrag• 9 years ago

Here in Paris, many people in their thirties are single like me, and many are on dating sites. I had a lot of dates on a french site called adoptecunmec unlike Tinder. After manual experiences, I started a script which notified me when new girls registered on the website, so I could message them before their inbox would be full. A lot of them were closing their account because of the insane number of lame messages.

I didn't finish this script because I decided to stop all these dating sites and focused on street drag. After work, I visit Paris (which I still don't know well) and talk to girls, as many as I can.

It's successful. I don't have this disapppointment on dates like you have with online dating, people don't cheat with their pictures. Of course, you take rakes, you get phone numbers and girls won't respond to you, but at least they won't next you as fast as online dating people do. Some figures: I would go out for 2 hours and get 2-3 phone numbers, thanks to weeks of practice.

Please stop online dating and get out, you'll get a pleasant time and this will be much less time-consuming.

PS:

- advices on street drag https://www.reddit.com/r/seduction/top/

- this youtube guy helped me a lot https://youtu.be/DTDrnasfg_g?t=330

My Failed Attempt at Engineering Love

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