Stop Buying Things and Start Borrowing Them

https://www.makechange.aspiration.com/articles/2016/11/23/this-former-accountant-wants-you-to-stop-buying-things-and-start-borrowing-them

by mathgenius • 9 years ago

448 284 9 years ago

makechange.aspiration.com

jdietrich• 9 years ago

Fifty years ago, you would have just knocked on your neighbour's door or asked the guys at bowling night. Wanting to borrow a drill or a tent isn't new; not knowing anyone to borrow it from is a peculiarly modern affliction.

I applaud any effort to rebuild our fractured society.

probablybroken• 9 years ago

It also used to cost proportionally more of your disposable income; You'd probably be more inclined to borrow an item if it would cost the next month's cash to acquire.

jgalt212• 9 years ago

indeed, outside of luxury items, things have become very cheap. real estate, health care, and education have become very expensive. As an aside, one can pin the persistence of ZIRP on the Fed measuring the wrong things.

https://www.vox.com/new-money/2017/5/4/15547364/baumol-cost-...

sotojuan• 9 years ago

I still wouldn't buy a drill today, but I'd consider renting one from Home Depot before asking neighbors (mostly because the idea of asking neighbors wouldn't cross my mind, to prove GP's point).

ajross• 9 years ago

This is exactly it. The drill in question is the kind of thing you find on special at Home Depot for $30. Likewise for (just riffing on the stuff I see in the photos in the linked article) the therma-rests and tents for camping, or the collection of board games[1], etc...

Basically, the causality in the grandparent's analysis is wrong. We aren't refusing to borrow stuff from our neighbors because we're unable due to some modern affliction, we don't bother because someone gave us that drill for father's day last year. The junk is the cause, not the effect.

[1] Which is hardly a new phenomenon. The home I grew up in 40 years ago was drowning in these things too.

TheSpiceIsLife3• 9 years ago

Is this actually true? Is there anyone here who was an adult in the 60s / 70s who can attest to this?

Even then it would be anecdotal.

If we've got data let's go with the data. If all we've got is opinions let's go with mine.

I'd probably not be inclined to borrow a thing if it cost next month's cash to replace it when I break it.

I would be more inclined to hire a thing from a company who hires things. That way, if it breaks, no one is put out.

dheera3• 9 years ago

When I was studying at MIT people would knock on my door all the time to borrow tools, cables, kitchen gadgets, and various other things that I typically had. I didn't mind at all. I think we need to reduce the amount of "stuff" in the world and share more.

Since I graduated and in the Bay Area now I realized that my closest friends, and pretty much anyone I knew, is no longer located next to me. Every time I want to borrow something it involves figuring out when someone living 20km away from me will be available, worry about bothering their schedule and making them stay home when they don't want to be, and then spending $25 on Uber rides* round trip to get it, and then another $25 on Uber rides to return it to them later. In most cases I could just buy that drill off Amazon for less than $50 instead.

*I don't own a car because I avoid using a car when not necessary (e.g. commuting with a bicycle and public transportation), only need a car for occasional hiking trips and events, and believe in sharing, and my Lyft+Uber+Zipcar+Enterprise costs per month are less than the cost of car ownership.

Cursuviam• 9 years ago

As a current student there, it's real useful to be able to hit up a mailing list of your neighbors, when you need to borrow something.

sooheon3• 9 years ago

my Lyft+Uber+Zipcar+Enterprise costs per month are less than the cost of car ownership

Especially if you count the cost of externalities. Thanks for doing the right thing!

Vektorweg• 9 years ago

The problem is, that you have to move for every new job. Our parents and grandparents lived in the same very spot for decades.

throwaway2016a3• 9 years ago

This. In the last 10 years I have lived in 7 different places in 5 different cities. Either because I had to move or because my wife got a new job. Most of my friends growing up live in a town I haven't lived within 300 miles of in 13 years.

4/5 times if I make a new friend one of us (sometimes me, sometimes them) moves far away within three years.

I bought a house a few years ago so now I have forced stability (moving is too expensive so to make me move it would have to be an incredible opportunity).

evanlivingston• 9 years ago

You don't have to move for new jobs, you have to move for the kinds of jobs people on HN want.

TallGuyShort• 9 years ago

How is that the problem? I've had my current neighbors for a few months and we've borrowed several things from each other. Lived in a house in a different place for a year and a half. Great friends with the folks next door and borrowed things from each other regularly. You just have to go talk to people when they move in, invite them over for a barbecue and boom - now you're friends. Not that hard to redo every time someone changes a job.

mooreds2• 9 years ago

I don't know that this is true. I have been in the same smallish town (Boulder) for almost two decades and have had a number of different jobs (startups, contracting, smallcos).

I run a neighborhood mailing list and was thrilled when my lawnmower broke and I asked to borrow one on the list. I had five or so folks happy to lend me theirs.

However, it was hard for me to ask. Was it pride, fear of being turned down or them thinking "why doesn't he just buy one"? Not sure.

calichoochoo• 9 years ago

I'm sure that's backwards. Earlier generations were more likely to move around than are Millenials. See Census Bureau "Americans Moving at Historically Low Rates" November 2016.

abrkn• 9 years ago

There are so many things I'd love to own. Golf clubs, snowboard, records, guitar, even just nice wine glasses. But I move far and often and have not found a way to move or store my own things.

hibikir• 9 years ago

Studies indicate that Americans are moving less than ever before: People move for college, and will probably move again to their first job, but people move a lot less often afterwards. An important reason is that two salaries per family is the norm if you want to live comfortably, and looking for two jobs somewhere else that aren't a net loss is not all that common.

At the same time, moving for people without college degrees is even lower, because their lives require a strong social support network, and that doesn't move with you. This is part of why growth in the poorest parts of the country is not in any way catching up with big metro areas.

What is really weakening social structures is that we both have a country full of suburbia and unstable work environments. This leaves few opportunities to build friendships after college. Friendship is easy if you met the same people all the time organically: Super dense cities or even vacation resorts give plenty of opportunity to keep interacting with the same people without trying hard. Nowadays, the only place that gives us that opportunity is work, and once someone changes jobs, the interactions go away.

We see very similar situations in multiplayer videogames. A first person shooter with dedicated servers that people select builds a community. Joining a random queue makes sure you never meet the same people often enough to build connections.

In life, people get through this by just using group hobbies as excuses. I know many people that go to 10+ conventions a year, just to meet other people that also do this, and end up building friendships even when living far away. Similar things happen with computer conferences. The flipside is that all that travel weakens families: I know someone that this year is on track to spend 3 months away from home, mostly because this person enjoys it. The problem is that they have two daughters. You can imagine what the girls aren't taking it well.

I suspect that humanity will keep working on new techniques to avoid the loneliness and inefficiency that comes from very weak social links: Like in many other areas, it's a case where changes are coming faster than humans adapt, but we can't just keep working this way.

rayiner• 9 years ago

That's part of it, but part of it is also that our communities are physically structured very differently. My parents have lived in the same neighborhood fifteen years and don't really know any of their neighbors. Their neighborhood is a modern cul-de-sac of McMansions designed to make it easy to ignore the people around you. In contrast, my wife and I moved into a pre-car era neighborhood just six months ago. We already know a ton of neighbors. It's hard not to meet them when every house has a porch and sits on a lot 1/5 the minimum lot size in the county.

grogenaut10• 9 years ago

All the jobs I've moved for paid for me to move. I priced moving my big shit before and it was not really any more expensive than other stuff like a motorcycle. It's just pure weight.

mc322• 9 years ago

I think in a time when one might not know one's neighbors well, it might help to have an inventory of things available --we would know who has an awl or a wet vacuum, etc.

ebbv• 9 years ago

This still happens in my town. It probably still happens in any community where it would have happened 50 years ago and doesn't in ones it wouldn't have happened in. Your view on what our society is like right now is colored by where you live.

gnicholas• 9 years ago

Where I live (near Palo Alto), people borrow/loan stuff on Nextdoor all the time. It has been a good way to avoid one-time purchases, and to get to know neighbors.

fit2rule3• 9 years ago

That is a very salient point. When isn't society being re-built, though?

More to the point, those 'golden days' still happen, and are not unique to any particular culture. There are plenty of neighborhoods in the world still yet where these things happen.

GuB-42• 9 years ago

It is still done, and it pisses me off a lot.

I am usually the one with all the stuff, especially tools. And people tend to borrow from me a lot. I tend to be fine with it, but some people abuse it. They damage my stuff or lose parts and don't offer any kind of compensation, expect me to take care of the return or just forget it, etc... These people are a minority, but they are also those who tend to borrow the most.

With this mindset, it is no surprise people get protective of their stuff. At least, a "library of things" has ways of dealing with abusers without endangering friendly relationships.

drivingmenuts• 9 years ago

I'm not sure this accomplishes any rebuilding though. Sure, it's a place one can borrow things for a fee, but so is Rent-A-Center and the amount of social interaction is the same as any retail store. One might get to know the people there over time, but it's hardly necessary to do so.

s0rce• 9 years ago

This is very true, however, in my experience seems mostly limited to apartments/condos, when I've lived in apartments I rarely interact with my neighbors. When I've lived in houses in less dense areas I've always been friendly with my neighbors and frequently borrowed tools, ladders and other household items from them. Go meet your neighbors everyone, make friends and then you don't all need to have a 20ft extension ladder! I wonder if other people have seen the same trend?

paulkrush• 9 years ago

AI will make sharing like this easier, but at the same time it will make things cheaper.

People go camping in Hawaii, buy gear and give it way when they leave.

kakarot• 9 years ago

How does AI fit into that picture?

notburnt• 9 years ago

How else are you going to get funding?

Envec83• 9 years ago

Isn't this what the "shared economy" is about?

Still, I find it interesting that he managed to raise $30k on IndieGoGo. It signals that people care about those ideas/ideals.

a3n• 9 years ago

No, the shared economy is about corporations paying for peoples' time as piece-work, while avoiding or minimizing tax, benefit and liability expenses.

setq• 9 years ago

I wasn't aware that borrowing things wasn't a thing these days. I'm forever borrowing and lending things. Just yesterday I borrowed a hammer drill from a friend because it's ridiculous buying one to drill some holes for a curtain rail.

akeck• 9 years ago

I do three things to cut consumption: borrow, rent, and "rent". "Rent" is buy high quality/high value, and resell for a significant fraction of retail when you are done with it. I learned it from a friend at work. She bought a Dell Deal high-end desktop with free monitor. She sold the monitor immediately, which covered most of her layout for the initial deal. Then, three years later, she sold the desktop for about 60% of retail. The items were being enjoyed by new owners, and she recovered the value she put into them.

icebraining2• 9 years ago

And I'm the guy who buys those used Dells :)

joshvm• 9 years ago

The other option is to buy used items that strongly retain value, like camera lenses. Most of my glass is worth about the same as when I bought it from eBay, because there's nothing that really depreciates and good lenses are good lenses.

scottLobster• 9 years ago

This. For me, more mundane examples are what this article actually lists. I heavily researched my camping gear, and with the exception of one sleeping bag that ripped the rest is still working great 10 years later. Same for sunglasses, my vacuum cleaner, tools, etc. Anything not perishable that I buy is a long-term investment. I buy something toward the high end and use it until it pukes.

therealdrag0• 9 years ago

My psychological problem is that the market is so cut throat these days a lot of used items are barely listed at a discount. So it's too easy for me to justify buying new for 10% more to get "official" assurances.

On the other hand I've been buying only refurbished electronics for a couple years now and have had no problems.

zanny3• 9 years ago

I only buy used cell phones. I have an S5 and Note 4 right now I got combined for half the cost of a new S8, and I got both in mint condition a year ago.

You really can't get away with that with laptops or desktops because the need for fans causes a lot of component wear and environments are so divergent you can't trust used sellers to not have a lot of the internals damaged. Or the keyboards and trackpads - heavy wear or use or just abuse and one damaged key can ruin a purchase.

Phones are nice and self contained enough that looking at the outside generally tells you the condition of the inside.

disposablename• 9 years ago

Some people also use "rent" for buying an item and returning it before the store's "no questions asked" return period expires.

throwaway-1209• 9 years ago

That's what I do. If I need a tool temporarily, I just get it from eBay or Craigslist, and then unload it. I often make money when I resell. It's not much, but all in all I essentially rent things for free. This doesn't work for things that are very expensive, but for anything below a few thousand dollars, this will save you a ton of money.

coding123• 9 years ago

If this gets huge, how will it create net positive number of jobs?

reitanqild2• 9 years ago

Ideally I'd guess because people use less money, can make savings, can start companies/other useful activities.

jimmaswell3• 9 years ago

People spending less money isn't good for the economy. It's a component of the downward spiral of recessions.

SmallBets• 9 years ago

It's not always about growth. Making it easier to meet your needs like this project does, replaces the need for that piece of income/job/growth so is still an economic positive in that way.

This easier path to consumption means the time/effort needed to own these things previously can be redeployed in a productive way.

kijin2• 9 years ago

It won't, but who cares? Most of the jobs that go into producing these goods might soon be replaced by AI anyway.

Meanwhile, by setting up a physical store where people pay a fee to "borrow" things, instead of helping them borrow directly from one another for free, a job has been created for whoever works at the store. The obsession with job creation only goes to show that a lot of jobs are inefficiencies waiting to be eliminated.

edsheeran• 9 years ago

How does indemnification work in this case? Some of these tools could be dangerous for weekend warriors.

kijin2• 9 years ago

This is basically a rental service with a fixed yearly fee, so I guess they could draw up some sort of standard rental contract similar to the one that Home Depot uses. Maybe add some large ugly warning stickers, too.

TheSpiceIsLife3• 9 years ago

How does that work for sleeping bags or chocolate fondue set?

Those are definitely two things I would not borrow from anywhere.

grantlmiller• 9 years ago

I love this overall concept. In LA a startup launched last year that will not only rent you the random stuff you don't need to buy, but they actually drop it off & pick it back up from you (www.joymode.com). They organize it all by experiences (ie not so much about tools) but instead here are things you need for backyard movie night, or camping, or pasta making etc. I'm a big fan of owning fewer things... frees people up to move more easily (not being able to move homes is huge cause of under-employment).

delinka• 9 years ago

I tend to find that I can't trust those who borrow my things to actually care for my things. They come back absolutely broken.

alacombe3• 9 years ago

this is why you lend your fixer-upper tools (say, the first chainsaw / drill you bought), and keep the good stuff for yourself.

djsumdog• 9 years ago

I lived in a city that had a Tool Library; similar concept for tools.

I once lived out of two bags for 11 months. After living in a one bedroom apartment by myself for about a year, I was surprised just how much I had to sell, give away and git rid of. I even tried to keep in my head that I wasn't /really/ buying anything, but basically renting it until I took off again. I always tried to buy used or from thrift stores whenever possible.

http://khanism.org/perspective/minimalism/

http://khanism.org/perspective/return-to-minimalism/

mc322• 9 years ago

This seems apt for very dense locations where the premium is on surface space. Unsure of how cultures might be willing to receive the idea, but given space constraints, the idea might gain traction in Tokyo or Amsterdam, Shanghai, Mumbai, etc.

Also take the idea to places where people aren't used to having and owning these possessions --get them while it's still a nascent idea.

throwaway2016a3• 9 years ago

I pay to be a member of the local maker space. But they have a lot of equipment I would never dream of buying (like a plasma cutter and later cutter) and some that I could buy but rather wouldn't (like a 3d printer and a bench oscilloscope).

But members break the tools all the time and don't take responsibility for it. Even though there are cameras and people have to swipe their card at the door it still happens.

I think one reason sharing is not as common is because people are jerks.

I remember when I was a kid we used to borrow each other's NES games all the time and never give them back.

owlmirror• 9 years ago

Stuff breaks, that's a fact of life. Not owning up to it while not the right thing to do is understandable, especially if there is no clear policy or even the risk of having to replace it out of your own pocket.

At our maker space we tell people that they should not worry if they break stuff, unless it's done on purpose we pay for it. Because broken stuff is not the problem. Having broken equipment and not knowing about it is. It's frustrating when you discover that a important machine does not work on Saturday evening and can not use it the whole weekend.

colanderman2• 9 years ago

Yes stuff breaks, but more often inconsiderate people tend to break stuff they don't own or care about. As another commenter pointed out, I have certain close family members I don't even lend things to, because the items are likely to come back broken or missing. Even with an explanation, it still means I have to pay to replace it.

I hate to be so negative about this, because I would love to just be able to share things with neighbors/friends.

beachy• 9 years ago

When my first child was born, we were in a hospital in the UK. Peeling paint on the walls, flickering fluoros, harried staff.

He had trouble extricating himself, his heart beat started fluctuating, and so the staff rushed out to get the Ventouse (think a plumber's plunger, used to extract the baby with a suction to the head).

They yanked it out of a cupboard and blimey - it was broken.

The doctor yelled and ranted, people ran hither and thither, and eventually they managed the job using forceps instead.

That was all stressful enough. But what really astonished me was that they chucked the broken Ventouse machine back into the cupboard - and no doubt the same scene played out again later on, for some other unlucky people.

Its the same deal as people who try the whiteboard markers, find that they're not working, then put them right back on the board for the next person.

covercash• 9 years ago

I have friends who I know treat their things very well, so I have no issues lending my stuff out to them. I also have family members who absolutely destroy whatever they can get their hands on, so they don't get to borrow anything of mine.

I have one cousin who bent the cards while playing Sushi Go at a family function. When called on it, his response was, "oh shoot, my bad." Part of me is curious as to what led him to believe that's an acceptable thing to do to someone else's property and part of me just wants to punch him for being such an inconsiderate ass.

adekok• 9 years ago

Part of me is curious as to what led him to believe that's an acceptable thing to do to someone else's property

He doesn't think it's acceptable. The issue is he doesn't care. i.e. he doesn't pay attention. He doesn't think about it. He just does what "feels good", and wonders later why people won't loan things to him.

Yes, I've met people like this, too.

tjr2252• 9 years ago

While I don't personally know your family members this certainly seems like something that could happen via pure absent mindedness or distraction rather than the result being an "inconsiderate ass."

PeterisP3• 9 years ago

Breakage is a big part of cost of ownership, especially for very expensive tools.

IMHO in the context of maker spaces, it's wrong to structure it so that people could unexpectedly be on the hook for large amounts of money if they happen to be the ones who break a machine, it would work much better if such expenses would be like insurance, made small, distributed and predictable, priced in the usage or membership.

inetknght• 9 years ago

That, on the other hand, can encourage people to be careless in what they do. It's not their own equipment, they don't pay for it, so why worry about whether it will break? Someone else will have to fix it.

thearn4• 9 years ago

I remember when I was a kid we used to borrow each other's NES games all the time and never give them back.

I definitely remember it being a very collective ownership thing in my neighborhood when it came to NES games.

sgustard• 9 years ago

The risk of borrowing something from a maker space, taking it home, then finding it to be broken is non-zero. That's a tax on the system paid by the borrowers. And it's another outcome of our plethora of cheap goods: just buy something new, it's cheap enough and pretty likely to work; but second-hand after some time its reliability drops off rapidly.

fit2rule3• 9 years ago

There has to be supervision. I am also a member of a local hackerspace, and there is no way around the fact that people will screw things up with the tools, and not take responsibility for the screw-up.

This means, there have to be 'Members' in the workshop, at all times. That is, you can't use the space if you haven't been checked out, and are under the guidance, of another member.

Then, when things screw up, the other member has the responsibility to report what happened, and you gotta fix it.

(It has surprised me, over the years of observing the rise of hackerspaces, that the social engineering aspect of the ethos hasn't solve this problem. But it is very interesting to see that the phenomenon of irresponsibility is global.)

TeMPOraL4• 9 years ago

I help run a local hackerspace and I can tell from experience, that people underestimate just how much social stuff there is in keeping a community like this together. Because a healthy hackerspace is a community first, and a workshop second.

Related, I don't think I know of any hackerspace that solved the problem of keeping the workshop clean. We've been struggling with this for our entire 5 years of existence now. Nothing helps. Not asking, not pressuring, not shaming, not even cameras everywhere. People don't clean up the workplace after themselves, and the core members always end up doing that. If we had bigger budget, we'd consider hiring a cleaning contractor...

IshKebab2• 9 years ago

Yeah also you have to deal with the "have you been officially shown how to use that <bandsaw/bench grinder/drill press/vice/pencil sharpener>?" crowd. No thanks.

yjftsjthsd-h• 9 years ago

Given that some of the tools can casually remove fingers, I would rather hope that some degree of basic safety training is mandatory. Or is that not what you mean?

zanny3• 9 years ago

You can plan for jerks though. Libraries have survived damaged books just fine for millennia. Really all these sharing projects are become general purpose libraries of things rather than just books.

Cost replacement into the price of admission and kick out members that consistently abuse the privilege.

alecco• 9 years ago

There should be some rating on borrowers. I am very careful who I lend things to. Many of my friends are careless. It's not in particular with your stuff, they are like that. This is a consequence of decades of disposable consumer product culture.

alacombe3• 9 years ago

Libraries have survived damaged books just fine for millennia

Libraries don't rent thousands dollars equipment that can be misused and broken. Moreover, it is much easier to fix a book than a damaged CNC vise.

nkw• 9 years ago

But members break the tools all the time and don't take responsibility for it. Even though there are cameras and people have to swipe their card at the door it still happens. I think one reason sharing is not as common is because people are jerks.

I agree with this. I visited a local maker space a number of people raved about (and still do) online. They did have a number of tools which I probably would not otherwise acquire (for instance laser cutters, etc.) either because of cost, space, or rarity of need, and I thought it would be neat to have a community of other similar minded people, however I found myself really turned off by the way the place and tools were kept up. Maybe I'm too fastidious when it comes to tools, but I found the tools weren't really kept clean, stuff was scattered about, unorganized, and ultimately I thought an untidy hodgepodge of mid-tier tools that weren't really well cared for by their users.

It is too bad, I think it is a good concept and I've seen youtube videos of what appear to be nice operations with hobbyists that are a bit more 'professional'. (I guess that could be somewhat of a contradiction..).

mycall• 9 years ago

There is a 90% chance whatever I borrow to someone, it will be damaged upon return. I don't get it, because there is a < 5% chance of me damaging something I borrow. Perhaps I have the wrong friends.

sneak2• 9 years ago

We need a sharing service for conscientious people.

mrkgnao2• 9 years ago

borrow to someone

lend.

I think some European languages have the same word for both lend* and borrow (German?): is that actually the case?

skookumchuck10• 9 years ago

My father, a military man, told me that the Army would supply the GIs with combat boots. When the boots would wear out, they soldiers would present them for replacement.

They had a high replacement rate. So they switched to a system where the GIs were given a clothing allowance to be spent on boots. What they didn't spend, they could keep.

The replacement rate for boots dropped in half.

jschwartzi3• 9 years ago

How did the rate of foot and ankle injury change after they instituted this policy?

louithethrid• 9 years ago

One way we tried to solve this at ours was to add a yearly lottery. One thing would be auctioned off (and it wasnt always the oldest thing- and replaced). If it could be potentially yours- you suddenly take good care.

wruza2• 9 years ago

I heard that my local taxi services worked the same way few years ago. If you don't claim that after two years vehicle will be driver's property, they break it to unrestorable in a couple of weeks.

TaylorAlexander3• 9 years ago

Rather than say "people are jerks", we could say "these people do not respect community property". One thing they have in common is that they probably all grew up in an individualistic capitalist society.

I can imagine that, if they lived in a functioning society where the dominant method of acquiring tools was by borrowing from some community pool of tools, the community might develop customs that protect the tools. Perhaps instead of having "bothersome bureaucratic certification" to get approval to use a tool, which is what I often see at hacker spaces, such a community would have elders who explain to the youth how to use and respect tools.

I imagine such a society could offload most of their survival needs to automation.

dragandj• 9 years ago

That was tried in USSR, and the result was that even less care was taken of community property.

no_wizard• 9 years ago

To keep it short..I think this line of reasoning has little basis in actual day to day reality.

Sometimes, people are just jerks, no matter how they were raised, where they came from, or what they are doing.

"Capitalist Society" or not.

Danihan• 9 years ago

Most people don't even respect their own property. Look at the states of disrepair of most houses..

tome3• 9 years ago

Isn't this just the Tragedy of the Commons all over again?

kleer0014• 9 years ago

It is. TOTC is an essential feature of resource rich environments with an excess of tool using creatures.

abakker• 9 years ago

This is why I left the tech shop, bought a mill, lathe, CNC router and a bunch of other things to augment tools I already have. If you care about the quality of what you produce, you need to be able to calibrate your equipment. I could never trust the machinery at techshop without verifying everything, which, with milling machines takes too long to do every time, especially on a checkout system.

pasbesoin• 9 years ago

With reluctance, I have to second this.

jacquesm2• 9 years ago

But members break the tools all the time and don't take responsibility for it.

It's a direct consequence of people having access to tools they would never dream of buying: they don't fully understand them because of lack of experience and good tools in the hands of people that don't know how to use them will break more often than not.

Makerspaces need good supervision to be useful, usually they're just a bunch of tools in a space accessible to people whether they are capable of using them or not and totally unsupervised.

Wanting to use a certain tool and being able to use a certain tool are not the same thing.

That plasma cutter or laser cutter you referred to above, if you abuse them they can easily destroy themselves instead of the workpiece and it doesn't take all that much to do that either.

I've never owned a lasercutter (too expensive to own, too expensive to run) but I have owned a 12 KW 8'x4' CNC plasmacutter with a water bed and 3D portal mill (homebuilt). There is no way I would let anybody else use either without supervision until I was sure that they would not damage the machinery or themselves.

These are very much not toys.

joatmon-snoo• 9 years ago

Laser cutters are so easy to screw up, but also so easy to maintain. Unfortunately the former is easier than the latter.

cr0sh• 9 years ago

I've never owned a lasercutter (too expensive to own, too expensive to run)

Laser cutters aren't that expensive - provided your bed-size needs aren't too large and you don't need insane wattage requirements; they also aren't expensive to run.

A brand-new 60 watt cutter from a top-line manufacturer can be had for well under 10k USD. If you go with a cheap chinese model off of AliExpress, you can get it down to under 5k for virtually the same bed size. If you don't mind a slower cut rate, a 40 watt cutter is much less.

There are also kit laser-cutters out there (or you can buy the parts yourself and homebrew it) - for instance the Blacktooth cutter.

The difficult part of laser cutters is the smell and getting rid of the gasses they generate (like from acrylic); you can vent it out (like you would with a plasma table if it's enclosed) or let it run "open" (and just blow the fumes out the garage door or whatnot), but you still have this smell that's similar to acetone - and can lead people to calling the cops (aka - meth lab).

But really, cutters have come down in price by a lot - but again, your requirements have to be small. You won't be getting a 4x8 table on a laser cutter for cheap (or anything beyond 100 watts for cheap) unless you homebrew it (even then, it won't be too cheap). The only other expense is the laser tube; in the case of name-brand cutters, these are mostly "solid state" (usually pumped via RF), but the cheapo stuff (homebrew and otherwise) will be liquid cooled glass tube laser heads, pumped with high-voltage. You have to use these often to make them live the longest (its a strange case where if they aren't used, their life expectancy is lower than if they are used constantly - due to the physics and such of the system - too much to explain here).

These are very much not toys.

Agreed on that!

chaosbutters314• 9 years ago

Or it is because some people are assholes.

I broke a viscometer at work because I dropped something like 2 cm since I'm a clutz. I tried fixing it and rechecking the equipment but to not success. Now, we a big company with tons of money so this should be no big deal.

We call in the vendor and they spend 4 hours fixing it and we spend 10k.

Well, I get bitched out by 4 people on separate occasion as and constantly reminded after repeatedly apologizing and coming forth about my mistake.

That is why people dont come forward. Accidents happen but some people act like it was intentional assholeness.

I couldn't stop apologizing and feeling bad for a tiny slip of hand. But I was crucified and almost lost my job for something that took a 4 hour visit from the vendor.

People would come forward when things break if people had better managerial, parenting, and conflict resolution skills.

andai• 9 years ago

That's an interesting perspective. It made me realize, I don't like admitting I screwed up, if I can fix it before anyone finds out!

omegaham• 9 years ago

I know that this depends on the workplace culture, but I've gone the other way on stuff like this because apologizing makes certain people smell vulnerability and never let it go.

I'm happy to explain what happened, and I'm happy to suggest improvements for avoiding a similar accident in the future. If you think I screwed up, chew my ass or write me up. Past that, it is what it is, and if you hold it over my head like a nagging parent, I'm going to use my outdoor voice.

jonahx• 9 years ago

That sucks, but I think your experience is the exception to the rule -- indeed, is the result of the rule.

The typical reason things get broken like that is carelessness. And many people wouldn't have come forward like you -- not because they're justly afraid of overly harsh treatment, but because they have nothing to gain by doing so and don't share your moral principles.

That is background context in which your unfair treatment should be interpreted. Which is to say: I think you have the cause and effect backwards. And you, as a fair honest person, found yourself paying for "the way most people are."

confounded• 9 years ago

Well, if you break a rental from this place, I imagine you'd pay some fee.

I'm also part of a maker/hacker space. Culture is contagious, but takes work.

holri• 9 years ago

Then you have a social problem in your group. People are usually good in cooperating in small groups, if they feel as respected part of it with a common goal.

eponeponepon• 9 years ago

Possessions-as-a-Service? No, can't see it taking off.

In all seriousness, as others have noted, I see this as a rather damning comment on how badly human contact is getting abstracted away to businesses more and more. It's rather sad that people no longer feel able to just talk to others without some organisation to mediate.

ball_of_lint3• 9 years ago

What about things that aren't owned by anyone in your social group, and are too expensive/rarely used to justify buying yourself? Say the chocolate fountain: no one really needs it bad enough to buy one, but if you can sell access to one for some small fraction of that cost it could become a reasonable expense. A similar logic can be applied to a table saw, or to a dremel, or to a soldering iron. This service removes circumstance and adds reliability to borrowing.

And maybe it does reflect something sad about socialization today, but that doesn't mean it isn't useful or good.

ghaff5• 9 years ago

There are rental places for that kind of thing. The chocolate fountain and table saw are good examples. But soldering iron? $15 on Amazon. Dremel is more but is actually a good example of a tool you'll find use for doing lots of things. (And you tend to chew up cutting discs etc. if you borrow so you'll probably need to buy parts in any case.)

remir• 9 years ago

It depends. My father goes to an evangelical church and there's a lot of cooperation. People help each other for free, lend things, fix things for free, etc...

moultano2• 9 years ago

I've come to the conclusion that the only reason new baby equipment is ever sold is due to baby showers. There's an extremely liquid market for this stuff since it spends less than a year with each owner.

sparrish• 9 years ago

Then there's folks like me who have multiple kids and use that baby equipment over and over and over. We just threw away our first portable playpen (broken) after 16 years of nearly constant use (7 kids).

djhworld• 9 years ago

I saw this the other day http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/magazine-40190007/the-woman-who...

It makes sense, I don't have children so I don't know if $55 a month is expensive or not.

moultano2• 9 years ago

Seems more expensive than the alternatives, but that depends how much time it takes to seek out used clothes via friends, mothers groups, thrift stores. If that is time consuming for you then it might be worth it.

pascalxus• 9 years ago

This is a great idea. Now, anyone have a strategy for how to get your wife to agree to it? haha.

marcosdumay• 9 years ago

And inflict myself transaction inefficiencies every time I want to do anything?

It's hard enough to get enough time to do something, imagine requiring that time to be in commercial hours, prefaced by a drive or walk somewhere, a talk with somebody, then postfaced by the same. And then you forgot something...

ball_of_lint3• 9 years ago

I imagine that for many people, that is far less expensive than needing to buy everything they might need once a year, find storage for it, and go get it/return it/ to that storage. It quite possibly this wouldn't be convenient for something like a set of wrenches which you might be able to buy outright, but for someone who needs them only once a year and has other things to borrow, this could be very reasonable.

gehwartzen2• 9 years ago

I feel this way every time I need the use of a pickup truck. There are plenty of places I can go rent one but the time it takes to reserve it, drive there, do all the paperwork, and then repeat when I return it just doesn't seem worth it most of the time.

failrate• 9 years ago

My coworker is one of those guys who is an old man before his time. He loves scotch and working with tools. Sadly, he lives in a small apartment, so he doesn't have a real workspace. I've offered to let him come over for some tool time. We will see if he bites.

ktta2• 9 years ago

Hasn't the media been lamenting this exact behavior of millennials though? Houses would be bought previously, now more people are renting, vandwelling or just living with their parents. Less cars are being purchases because of people 'Ubering' everywhere. People rent more stuff thereby slowing down many industries. The future looks glum for many of them (especially the diamond industry)

Student loan was shown to be the primary deterrent. Of course what wasn't to blame was that the disparity between median wage and comfortable life is growing. Another thing they fail to attribute this to is that millennials are smarter, avoiding the spendthrift mistakes like large mortgages which tie them down to a place and make them paycheck away from homelessness.

source: Just google 'Millennials aren't buying <insert anything here>'

samhain• 9 years ago

I tried this, and one of the top business insider articles has a similar perspective as your comment here, blaming the baby boomers.

http://www.businessinsider.com/baby-boomers-caused-millennia...

ktta2• 9 years ago

(I kinda went offtopic but I think it is worth telling)

That article seems to be overreaching about what's 'killing' industries a little bit. The industry that's really in trouble is the diamond industry. That industry wasn't mentioned anywhere except a tweet which was dismissed[1]

There are downsides (apart from being expensive of course) like forced labor in Botswana, etc. Even if they are specifically advertised as not Blood Diamonds, people just want to get away from that industry. Mossanite is an alternative that is getting popular.

This might seem like a very small thing to care about, but I'll say it has wide ranging ripple effects. Millions of people depend on the unreasonable margin that diamonds provide, ranging from specialists to the stores that litter every single town because of course, people had to have a diamond shop. That was more important, than say, a blood bank. On first look, it might not seem economically feasible, but just the absurd lengths people go through to pay for that one diamond keeps the industry alive -- and thriving. Culture is the only thing to blame (or thank)

On the flip side of the unemployment that will be caused in developed countries, you have to consider the sheer amount of labor that is put (or forced) in Africa. Because of the value of diamonds, many were forced into labor and that will hopefully go down.

[1] https://twitter.com/UweBollocks/status/748679268599758848 - this tweet was embedded in the article. Shame that it wasn't talked about in detail

PS: I'd recommend the movie Blood Diamond

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0450259/

throw_323213• 9 years ago

Moving is definitely an issue here; lugging 10+kilos of tools across voltages and miles is not a particularly enticing proposition. I had an awesome time with the community bike shops both in UW and in North Seattle; even built my current bike there :D Anywho, if you're in Seattle, please do consider helping these people out before their lease runs out in Oct.

http://neseattletoollibrary.org/

glup• 9 years ago

Thinking of this as a caching problem, there need to be hyperlocal borrowing like at the level of apartment buildings or city blocks. The 6-unit apartment building I live in has a shared area in the basement—power tools, a shop vac, brewing equipment, knife sharpener, pentalobe screwdrivers, a weedwhacker, a multimeter, etc.) This complements the tool lending library (which my city has) which furnishes lower frequency needs. The hyperlocal thing is also a nice way to meet your neighbors (oh wow you also have a lot of pentalobe screwdrivers!) and share skills (I just learned how to fertilize houseplants).

For higher value items, I've been meaning to extend the above apartment-wide setup with a Google Doc inventory of things that people are willing to share, but want where participants want face-to-face confirmation, like loaning a camera or a mountain bike. I wish there were a way (a social institution moreso than a technical solution) to make quick contracts for borrowing things. I'm privileged enough to be able to replace minor things, but I am definitely relucatant to loan big things if I don't know if a friend can/would replace the thing if something bad happened on their watch. And no I don't want to rent them—I don't like the cognitive overhead of markets, and that's not the point.

jameskegel• 9 years ago

This reminds me somewhat of a social conundrum I've been experiencing lately; the thing is, in some cases I love most of my neighbors, however there are always the few who won't/don't value communal items/space. The group of those residents who want to just live harmoniously with their neighbors outnumbers the subset of residents who care enough about the rules to confront those breaking them. The passive group vilifies and subjugates those who try to mention anything to bad actors abusing the space, because they feel it will only rock the boat, and the ones breaking the rules shout the loudest.

If this sounds oddly specific, that's because it is- In my community we have a communal pool for our apartment block of 10-15 units. In general, everyone gets along, but there do exist problems where self governance and trust have failed, as far as taking care of shared property. Those who just want to live peacefully are retreating into their homes, those who care enough to say anything have been dismissed by the tenant in question, labeled as racist, bigoted or otherwise are browbeaten by the more fearful tenants into not reporting the problems.

In our case, it is a swimming pool, and a struggle with a tenant and her friends who sit around the pool drinking alcohol loudly all day, never once leaving, who enter the shallow end of the pool about twice an hour for 10 seconds, swishing their hands in the water around their waist before they exit. There is a restroom in her apartment which is less than 20 feet from the pool; I'm not positive what's going on in those 10 seconds, but people like myself who's balconies overlook the pool are noting this, and nobody wants to swim anymore because of it. Any suggestions about just talking to the tenant elicit a gasp and dirty look from the pacifist crowd. How would you, dear reader, handle a delicate situation like this?

After realizing how futile any complaints would be, I've stopped swimming until I find the respectful and correct way to put a resolution on this.

This personal anecdote may have strayed from its target, but relating the situation to the void felt somewhat cathartic.

TheRealPomax• 9 years ago

Stop requiring JS and start serving HTML first.

audi100quattro4• 9 years ago

We still live in an ownership society AFAIK. Owning your own home, car, the vast majority of products you use pays. Owning multiples of each pays even more. The parts of society where this isn't true is media, and it's a shame.

You should buy what you need with the rights you're entitled to, and figure out the difference between what you need and what you really don't.

ball_of_lint3• 9 years ago

What about things that aren't worth the cost to own them outright? Take a chocolate fountain: No one needs one, but it might become worth it to buy access to one at some small fraction of it's cost.

audi100quattro4• 9 years ago

I'm not against renting, or something as a service etc.. I'm just saying the benefits of actually owning something you need pays for itself. If you're new to skiing and want to try it out? Rent the gear. Going more than twice a year? I'm sure buying good gear is worth it.

knorker2• 9 years ago

Someone with a username matching a fairly fancy car manufacturer would think that, wouldn't they? :-)

I so don't miss owning a car. If you don't need a car for daily commute then taxis and renting is much much cheaper for when you do need a car.

And it's not just the money. The life drain of owning a car is a big cost.

If I lived in Houston I'd reluctantly own a car though.

threesixandnine• 9 years ago

Do you have any children?

I owned cars from my 18th birthday and a significant amount of my earnings went into them. Now that I am closer to 40 than to 30 and living at a place that can actually provide me with a decent public transport I can see myself not owning a car but the thing is that I have a kid and really don't want to tell my wife and my daughter that we have to go on a bus or wait for a cab to go to the nearby lake for a nice relaxing Sunday afternoon. Also I lease a car for around 200 GBP per month which is less than what I would pay for public transport. With those 200 GBP per month and for a three year lease tires and maintenance are included. What's not to like?

audi100quattro4• 9 years ago

I didn't say there are no exceptions.

I have an e-bike, live near public transport, bike lanes, and hate owning my car too. Would I switch to using Lyft exclusively? If the south bay invested more in the VTA like Muni in the city, and Lyft was much cheaper for long distance driving, yes. Otherwise, no.

tome3• 9 years ago

How does owning multiple houses or cars pay?

audi100quattro4• 9 years ago

If you need them, even as an investment, you can always rent out a house. Having a small car as a daily driver and a big one for a family car makes sense.

There are drivers that rent Priuses for hundreds/week and earn a living on Uber/Lyft. The owner is making a killing I'm sure.

Animats• 9 years ago

There are many tool rental outlets. The tool quality tends to stabilize at "almost broken", but they exist.

Theodores• 9 years ago

Exactly. And the tool hire companies would hire out tents too if they were a thing you could lend out and expect to get back intact. They would probably have board games in there too if the games came back with all the pieces present. Maybe jigsaw puzzles too... Who wouldn't want some recreation amenity items for the crew?

So really anything that can be rented out already is and the magic of capitalism means that is at market price already. Plus there is ebay, where else does one go, Craigslist? In these market places people get rid of old hobby gear. It may not be rented or you can see on the purchase as rented indefinitely with a reasonable return deposit.

alacombe3• 9 years ago

Not so much here in Canada, especially for one-time use automotive tools. From the local NAPA store, rentals are too much of a hassle.

dagw• 9 years ago

I looked into renting a table saw recently and I could basically buy a second hand one for less than what it would have cost to rent for a week.

gehwartzen2• 9 years ago

Yup you can very often just buy the tool you need on CL use it for a weekend and sell it to the next person at pretty much the same price. I suppose this is actually a nice model as it forces you to not abuse the tool so you can still sell it for a good price.

siliconc0w• 9 years ago

I'm fortunate that I actually know my neighbors, we bbq, and we do favors and borrow each other's stuff all the time. This sort of community seems to be getting rare. I like the idea of the 'library of things' but feel like I'd might implement it as a P2P borrowing app to encourage people to talk to their neighbors.

The problem is that people aren't 'settling down' and instead are frequently moving around for work. This makes it hard to build up communities with the people around you. Your work becomes your 'stand-in' community - which has it's disadvantages. This has ramifications for health and happiness far beyond borrowing stuff. The studies that show people living longest aren't correlated with western health care or even good diet - it's the strength of their bond with their community.

EGreg2• 9 years ago

Shouldn't there be an app for that?

If I were to make such an app, how could I get a company to underwrite and provide insurance for these items?

kleer0014• 9 years ago

No, it's a post saturated market. It's been tried again and again and failed every time.

EGreg2• 9 years ago

But how does the INSURANCE POLICY work for it

shujito• 9 years ago

I had to enable javascript to read the article...

stevenj• 9 years ago

At first glance, this seems silly and something that is unlikely to ever take off.

But feeling that way, at least initially, about a startup that becomes big often seems to share that characteristic.

wcr3• 9 years ago

stop titling articles like this...

emersonrsantos• 9 years ago

It's not sharing or borrowing if you pay for it; it's called renting.

Mister_Snuggles• 9 years ago

My local public library has a Makerspace[0] with 3D printers, recording studios, plus a bunch of other stuff. I haven't checked it out yet, but it seems like every time I visit the web site there is something new. Plus they're renovating (right now the building has been stripped all the way down to its concrete structure) the main branch of the library, it looks like the renovation will have a pretty big section for the Makerspace. Access is available to library members, and membership is free for Edmonton residents so there's virtually no barriers to entry.

There's also the Edmonton New Technology Society[1], which was the original Makerspace in Edmonton. Unfortunately for me, the location means that I'm unable to visit regularly.

[0] https://www.epl.ca/browse_program/makerspace/

[1] https://ents.ca/

jimmaswell3• 9 years ago

The law of headlines applies to commands in headlines too, in my experience.

grogenaut10• 9 years ago

Remember you can always "rent" things from craigslist if you're fine with spending the time hitting "relist" for a few weeks while you wait for someone to buy it.

I'm currently doing this with a car for my visiting son. Too young to rent for but not a big deal to buy an old car for 2 months and sell it when he leaves. Basically paid the registration fee for 2 months + gas which is $300 for a 2 month rental. Then the "fun" (which it is to some people) of dealing with cragistlist crazies while selling it. I actually enjoy dealing with the flakes, putting myself in their shoes and getting practice negotiating.

tome3• 9 years ago

I do wonder if this is not the happy medium.

If someone wants to borrow my spanner for a few days perhaps I'll just sell it to them for the replacement price with the guarantee that I'll buy it back from them if it is returned in the same condition it was sold.

jnordwick• 9 years ago

In finance those types of contracts are called swaps. So there is a precedent :)

Eridrus• 9 years ago

Probably fine for a spanner, but puts a lot of risk burden on to anyone borrowing the item. Sometimes items just break from wear & tear.

Would need to come with insurance from some 3rd party :)

Kiro2• 9 years ago

Naive question: isn't consumption key to economic growth?

Kiro2• 9 years ago

Instead of downvoting maybe you can answer why it's wrong? I put "naive question" since I presume it's wrong and would like to be lectured.

rekado• 9 years ago

There's a shop like this in Berlin called Leila (for Leihladen). I very much hope that this idea takes off. Ideally this would not have to be a private enterprise, but could be an extension of the public library systems like it is done in some places in Finland: http://finland.fi/life-society/finnish-libraries-offer-new-a...

curiouscat321• 9 years ago

A little off topic, but does anybody use Aspiration's products? What do you think of them?

epx• 9 years ago

I don't like to borrow things so go ask someone else!!

kleer0014• 9 years ago

"Access-to not ownership-of" VS "The tragedy of the commons"

It's as eternal and essential balance as CPU vs MEMORY.

m3kw9• 9 years ago

Only certain things can be borrowed, like one time use things. If it's long term, it's be a better investment to buy than to pay each time

intrasight• 9 years ago

Now that our local Home Depot does tool rental, I have in that a good option for many tools that I rarely use. But even then you have to be strategic. I rented a gas-powered masonary saw. The cost to rent the blade was just half the cost of buying a new one - so I bought the blade to use with my rented saw. Will be using it again a third time soon.

I did grow up on the phrase "he who dies with the most tools wins", so it's taken me some time to transition to rent/loan. But I've got so many tools and supplies now, and I've reached a point in my life where I'd like to do more and own less, and all those tools are now somewhat a burden. I bet I'm not alone and that these tool libraries could probably get a lot of high quality donations.

bullen• 9 years ago

original article 0x"break"

HN article 31x"break"

nuf said.

adultSwim• 9 years ago

I love my local tool library. There are a lot of tools that I'll basically only ever use once. Instead of buying them and having them sit on the shelf, I can just check it out (for way less money) Annual membership is about what one cheap tool costs.

Stop Buying Things and Start Borrowing Them

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