H-1B Visas: U.S. Lawmaker Re-Introduces Bill to Tighten Rules

http://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2017/01/06/h-1b-visas-u-s-lawmaker-re-introduces-bill-to-tighten-rules/?mod=e2fb

by alfozan • 10 years ago

285 368 10 years ago

blogs.wsj.com

Honestly, I am all for raising the wage requirement. This will definitely help to reduce the use of H1B for hiring underpaid foreign labor.

edblarney5• 10 years ago

" This will definitely help to reduce the use of H1B for hiring underpaid foreign labor."

Surely it will, but it also may damage many companies ability to compete effectively.

A lot of talented R&D folks, outside of the Valley, may be earning 80-95K doing valuable work - and most of the surpluses will go to those companies, to the US in form of taxes, and remember those people spend mostly in the US as well.

So the issue is the degree to which Americans are actually displaced by those foreigners - that's the real underlying issue.

geebee4• 10 years ago

Here's the thing - if a corporation's "competitiveness" is dependent on a deeply coercive ability to control their employee's right to live and work in the US, with severely limited mobility rights for the worker, I'm not sure I care all that much.

If you can't pay high enough wages to compete for talent that has the freedom to choose which job and industry they work in, then you're probably not a high value employer.

mjevans• 10 years ago

I feel like this proposed bill doesn't go far enough.

H-1B visas should ONLY be granted for workers that are in such need that they are above the 90th percentile of pay for that role. They should also be limited to no more commitment to the company than their peer workers.

Once within the country, an H-1B worker should also be able to leave for other employment (without the top market rate requirement) whenever they choose and with a 6-12 month grace period for finding new work if they quit or are laid off.

The entire point should be about bringing valuable future citizens in to the country, and the program should definitely be a strong path to citizenship.

It also makes sense to have a different (easier to get) type of immigration for workers that want to start a company (and have most of those jobs) within the US.

EduardoBautista4• 10 years ago

I agree with everything you are saying. Almost everything about the work visa and employment based immigration needs to be reviewed.

I grew up in the USA (undocumented) and had to leave because I wanted to try to come back legally. Unfortunately, it's not easy even if I can easily get a six figure job or start a business.

learc836• 10 years ago

they are above the 90th percentile of pay for that role

The problem with that is that companies will do what they are doing now. Give people titles for lower wage jobs (support, QA etc...) pay them the 90% for the lower wage job, and have them perform the duties of the higher wage job.

hackerboos• 10 years ago

As someone that came through Canada's equivalent of the H1-B system, I think the Canadian system gets it mostly right:

- A points system based on a combination of industry requirement, education, experience and English/French language ability

- Permanent resident from day one

- No restrictions on moving employer or province

- Health insurance coverage after 90 days (Ontario)

- Citizenship after 3 years (once Bill C-24 is repealed)

http://www.cic.gc.ca/English/immigrate/skilled/index.asp

anarazel• 10 years ago

Once within the country, an H-1B worker should also be able to leave for other employment (without the top market rate requirement) whenever they choose and with a 6-12 month grace period for finding new work if they quit or are laid off.

Isn't that just going to lead tata/infosys/whatnot to establish front companies that people then immediately leave and join tata/infosys/whatnot?

nandemo• 10 years ago

The entire point should be about bringing valuable future citizens in to the country, and the program should definitely be a strong path to citizenship.

For what is worth, not everyone who wants to live and work in the long term in the US wishes to become a US citizen. A lot of us would be happy with an easier path to permanent residence (green card), which would solve the problem of being "able to leave for other employment".

Also, from the point of view of US citizens who favor stricter immigration, it can be argued that simply making it easier for people to become US citizens doesn't solve the (real or perceived) problem of depressed salaries or higher unemployment rate due to the increased labour pool.

treebeard901• 10 years ago

In theory that sounds good... In practice does the wage difference go directly to the companies who manage the H-1B employees? It's not like they would pass that on...

learc836• 10 years ago

Raising the minimum is about the only way (short of auctions) to prevent companies from playing games with the prevailing wage requirements.

user5994461• 10 years ago

The only way to have proper wages for H1B is to allow workers to change company.

Right now, the H1B workers have zero leverage power, zero negotiation power and they can't change job.

outworlder2• 10 years ago

They can. It's harder than what it would be for a permanent resident, but they can, as there is a grace period.

Maybe you are thinking of L1?

gozur882• 10 years ago

That's no longer true.

yazaddaruvala2• 10 years ago

To be frank: The companies who abuse the H1B system are smart enough to hire people who are not typically hirable elsewhere, but which also are just about able to overcome their respective tasks.

One instance of this is: Hire someone who is not typically hire-able elsewhere, but encourage them to work an extra 30 hours a week, and get acceptable throughput out of them.

edblarney5• 10 years ago

It's an interesting paradox ... the top users of H1s are foreign companies, like Infosys and Tata - they bring in people on these visas.

So in a way, it's kind of 'insourcing' not 'outsourcing'.

I truly wonder if those companies would opt to just leave their staff in India, and to hire mostly just customer-facing support types here otherwise.

In that case, the US would lose a lot of tax revenue (and spending) from those foreigners who are in the US on H1's - who are clearly generating a lot of value, not exactly slouches on welfare or what-not.

Granted - it could be that Infosys may have to hire real talent locally.

All of this outside the issue of FB, Google etc. hiring on H1's.

I wish someone would chime in with some hard research on this ... it'd be nice to know the exact skills of those on H1's and how those align with US labour market ...

I often think these laws are passed without grasp of the nuance ...

pashabitz• 10 years ago

The quota of H1b visas (compared to demand) is so low that it's very likely it will be filled even after losing the low paying applications. So tax revenue shouldn't go down.

serge2k4• 10 years ago

the top users of H1s are foreign companies, like Infosys and Tata - they bring in people on these visas

IIRC the top 10 were all consulting companies the last few years. You can look at the pay rates vs google/MS/etc... and see the difference. You can also look at the number of green card sponsorships.

It's really awful.

learc836• 10 years ago

I truly wonder if those companies would opt to just leave their staff in India, and to hire mostly just customer-facing support types here otherwise.

It's already much cheaper to employ someone in India than to pay that person in the US. The only reason they are using H-1B employees based in the US, is that some companies that are contracting Infosys and Tata want US based employees.

edblarney5• 10 years ago

"It's already much cheaper to employ someone in India than to pay that person in the US."

Agreed, but there might be advantages to having someone in the US.

Given a 'major change' it's not entirely unfeasible that these companies do a re-structuring, i.e. using a different customer engagement model (1 customer-facing American + more staff in India) and leverage more 'remote' style technology.

Also - remember that these companies may have been billing those staff out, so 'more cost' = 'more revenue' for them.

Anyhow - I just don't think it's so simple, and I'm not sure that just upping the threshold will work. Granted, $60K is too low.

It'd be nice to have the number set to be commensurate with specific people in specific fields, as measured by various things, i.e. 'tied to an index' so that as the economy does better, companies can bring in more people, but if things start to tighten, the H1's tighten as well.

johnnyhillbilly• 10 years ago

Any US taxes due to their US H1-B operations can also be reduced to zero by inflated internal pricing / profit shifting to their Indian operations. Check the tax rates and median IT salaries in Indian service export cities.

Also, they try to rotate employees abroad between several countries so as to keep them on short term visa & tax rules - and maybe also to avoid them getting uppity or starting unions...

tn135• 10 years ago

I worked for outsourcing company in India, large hardcore Big-3 tech company in Silicon Valley and a Startup. I can give you a perspective on this.

H1B visas are used by two category of companies.

1. Google like company who needs expertise and hires directly. Treated at par with other google employees. 2. Infosys like company that has its fingers in far too many pies and essentially works to provide cheap labor to American clients.

(Note that "cheap labor" benefits American companies stay a float. An automotive company might have lowered its expenses by engaging Infosys. Take that benefit out and the company might think of moving to Mexico to reduce operating costs by engaging cheaper manual labor. Cheap labor can be seen as exploitation of the worker and hence we can think of that Indian guy on H1B as someone who is being exploited.)

Infosys can file 3000 petitions for H1B and win lotter for 2000 of them. Google can only hire 4 IIT students out of which only 2 make it to USA.

The best way forward is to keep H1B as highly valued employee visa with no cap but much higher salary cap, dual intent visa and no lottery.

Provide another visa to Infosys like company with no immigration intent. Hard limit of how many years they can stay in USA and keep track how how much economic benefit they bring.

DrScump• 10 years ago

   it's kind of 'insourcing' not 'outsourcing'

It's still outsourced, but it's not offshored also.

euphoria83• 10 years ago

Raising the minimum wage is a welcome move to counter abuse of this visa. However, the minimum level needs to be set based on the city of employment and it's living cost. It cannot be a flat rate.

adrr• 10 years ago

Counter argument to that is that its better for government and country to have higher paid employees as it increases tax revenues. Tax rates don't change based on living costs.

My proposal would be stack rank all h1b candidates based on salary and take the top X. This would push up the salaries for H1bs and stop the abuse. It would indirectly lead to increase of all engineering salries both my removing negative pressure of having low salaried employees but also H1Bs salaries are public record.

cardine• 10 years ago

Counter argument to that is that its better for government and country to have higher paid employees as it increases tax revenues. Tax rates don't change based on living costs.

The goal of reform is to prevent employers hiring h1b workers at below market rates instead of hiring qualified US citizens. It is not to increase tax revenue.

If you don't adjust for cost of living you'll end up removing all h1b workers from lower cost of living areas - or those areas will simply outsource all their tech work overseas - while in higher cost of living areas companies will still be hiring h1b workers at below market rates. So in essence the wage threshold won't be doing its intended job.

However if you adjust for cost of living you can make sure that in all locations the required salary is setup to prevent h1bs as being abused as a cheap source of labor.

codeonfire3• 10 years ago

Businesses will just lie about where the person is working. Also this is probably not constitutional. If the rate were left up to states to set it might be constitutional, but places like CA and WA would just set their rate to $60k, 50% below market, because that's where all the rich elites who want cheap indentured labor are.

nbakshi• 10 years ago

100K in Bay area is not equal to 100K in some other part of US. Also H1B is not only used by the IT industry but other industries as well, where paying 100K may be tough.

xname2• 10 years ago

Exactly. I am in Arkansas, $100k is crazy, only a director of a big department can make this kind of money.

learc836• 10 years ago

Really, a senior dev can't make $100k with bonuses? You should come to Atlanta. Only about a 15% higher cost of living than Little Rock, and you can definitely make $100k as a senior developer.

jxy• 10 years ago

Not many options left for exchange scholars beyond the extension of J visas now. It'll have some impact on science output in the US.

_delirium• 10 years ago

Maybe they don't need H1Bs then? The stated goal of the H1B is to attract talent that is otherwise unavailable in the United States. If someone is offering six figures and still can't find applicants, I'm willing to believe there is really no available talent. But if someone is offering $60k and can't find talent, an alternate hypothesis is: maybe you aren't offering enough to attract the talent? Have you tried $70k or $80k? You may argue that $60k is a fairly high salary for the area, but that isn't enough to establish that such talent is unavailable in the United States.

There are alternate rationales where it would be justifiable to support an H1B-type system in that case too, but the H1B system's stated rationale isn't to allow companies in lower-cost areas to hire cheap-ish labor when they aren't willing to pay the national going rate for the talent they're looking for.

gopalv• 10 years ago

There are probably some Indians who are celebrating this ... a minimum 100k wage + a cost of living adjustment every 3 years.

If this is like the 2015 bill, that also includes the requirement to sign them up for stock options, similar to a US employee.

However, the rule does have a corner case which allows bonuses to be part of the 100k, so the employers might continue to pay low salaries all year round, with a dangled 40-50k bonus at the end of the year.

Because the tech industry is something with a fairly long lag between demand & supply, the best case scenario is that the wages go up all around & hopefully that is spent in the US, instead of hoarded for a princely return to India.

The worst case scenario for a cost increase is that more work moves overseas, taking the spending side-effects & tax revenue away from the US IRS, while the corporate profits are unaffected, just total revenue cuts down.

EduardoBautista4• 10 years ago

Because the tech industry is something with a fairly long lag between demand & supply, the best case scenario is that the wages go up all around & hopefully that is spent in the US, instead of hoarded for a princely return to India.

For that, employment based immigration needs to be addressed. Ideally, one should be able to self-petition to immigrate after a few years legally working in the USA.

yazaddaruvala2• 10 years ago

with a dangled 40-50k bonus at the end of the year.

There is nothing wrong with this, unless they are "fired" a week before their bonus kicks in.

I would really like to see a "minimum guaranteed salary" (guaranteed to the government, not the employee). Basically, if a company employs an H1-B, they sign a contract with the government, such that that H1-B will cost the employer $X.

e.g. If they promise to pay at minimum $120K, but then fire the employee before paying them $60K. Then, at the end of they year, the company is fined 60K, or has to replace that candidate with another H1-B to fill that 60K void.

Hondor• 10 years ago

hopefully that is spent in the US, instead of hoarded for a princely return to India.

Did you notice the anti-equality implications of what you said there? It's roughly equivalent to:

"I hope that when poor people get rich, they eventually give their money back to the rightfully rich people and don't keep it for themselves or use it to support their poor family or to develop their poor economy."

Do you apply that idea generally to any poor people or just Indians?

outworlder2• 10 years ago

The proposed legislation would increase required salaries for positions granted under the H-1B scheme that replace American workers from $60,000 to $100,000 per year.

Big whoop.

There are (three?) big players that are heavily outsourcing folks at "client sites". Ideally, H1Bs should be relatively easy to get for the first ones – after all, many companies have a legitimate need to bring in specialized labor from abroad. Then tack an exponential difficulty curve per company.

This way, a startup would be able to recruit a very talented individual from abroad. But big corps wouldn't be able to layoff and replace their workforce.

harry8• 10 years ago

Can you remove the restraint of trade so you can H1-B a president?

walshemj• 10 years ago

not such a silly idea I think Arnie or even a dual citizen leftie like Bo Jo (Boris Johnson) would make a better president

lutorm2• 10 years ago

I wonder if the $100k would apply to academic H1B's too. If so, that's pretty much the end of those.

codeonfire3• 10 years ago

What is an "academic H1B?" Students get a F1 visa, people with real credentials get a J-1 or O-1 visa.

bbrian• 10 years ago

The J1 isn't comparable to the H1B – it's a 12 month visa which must be started within 12 months of graduation. There's also no suggestion of working in academia on a J1 – it's the "intern" visa. I'm on it now in San Francisco, with a view to getting a H1B.

copperx2• 10 years ago

An H1B with no caps. Colleges have no caps.

lutorm2• 10 years ago

J-1's are issued for a maximum of 5 years per individual. Beyond that, universities can only hire postdocs etc under H-1B, because academic hires are exempt from the quotas. It's unlikely a postdoc-level position would qualify for an O-1.

shas36• 10 years ago

I think there's a big misconception here on this thread, thanks to the poorly written WSJ blog post. Rep. Issa's bill only applies to companies which have more than 15% of their workforce of 50 or more on visas. That number is calibrated to affect outsourcing companies like Infosys, TCS, HCL, etc. So, while it's fun to jump on the "foreigners shouldn't work in America" bandwagon on this thread, this bill is not what you are looking for.

https://www.americanbazaaronline.com/2017/01/06/new-h-1b-vis...

However, Rep. Zoe Lofgren's bill is a little different and does two things, replace lottery by a bidding type system and eliminate country caps, which, by introducing an artificial 8-12 year wait time for Indians, makes even non-outsourcing company employees de facto indentured labor. (So, if you are one of five experts in the world on say, mining safety, you still have to wait 10 years for a permanent residency just by virtue of where you were born.)

diogenescynic3• 10 years ago

Sounds awesome considering those body shops use up most of the H-1B quota and significantly underpay their employees compared to industry wages. For example, somewhere between 47% and 85% of H-1Bs are being significantly underpaid compared to their peers, evidence that the program is not being used to bring over workers with "specialized knowledge" as they claim--but to drive down wages. It makes sense though, when you look at the biggest H-1B recipients: http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2015-H1B-Visa-Sponsor.aspx It's mostly the low quality outsourcing shops like Infosys, TCS, Wipro, HCL, and Cognizant.

Instead of accepting 65,000 H-1Bs at random--accept the 65,000 H-1Bs with the highest wages. That way we are getting the immigrants with the highest valued skills and stopping companies like Infosys, TCS, Wipro, HCL, and Cognizant that game the immigration system by applying for the cheapest H-1Bs possible.

shas36• 10 years ago

I'm not sure about the bidding war. I've been in situations where companies are looking for people with specific skills (e.g. working with specific microbiology techniques) but would never be able to outbid what Facebook or someone in Bay Area would pay for generalist skills in another field. There is nowhere close to 100% elasticity in wages to make an auction system fair.

Also, this would handicap companies in low-cost-of-living regions of the US. This includes a massive chunk of the economy in solid economies with low costs of living like Michigan, Minnesota, Ohio, Texas, Arizona, North Carolina, and Georgia.

cthalupa5• 10 years ago

This pits new grads against people with many years of experience.

If kids come to the US for their undergrad/masters/phd and want to work here, they're not going to be the highest paid people competing, but they might have more long term value and chance of truly integrating with the country.

X86BSD2• 10 years ago

My wife is Indian. From Noida. I wasn't going to comment at all on this topic since it's already been beaten to death. But when I see the name Cognizant my blood BOILS.

Cognizant is the most atrocious slave labor company I have ever had the misfortunate of dealing with. My wife's first company in the US to work for was Cognizant. It is horribly run by corrupt indians, and they treated her like absolute slavery. The hours, the offshore team management and conference calls, the incredibly low pay, the worst most backstabbing coworkers ever. She had managers that not only never called her, they didn't even know she worked for them when she would get relocated to another state for another one of their clients.

Cognizant is appalling as a company.

arcticbull• 10 years ago

How about the top in their job title in their geographical area? That way you can take into account pay variance over the US.

SilasX2• 10 years ago

Sounds awesome considering those body shops use up most of the H-1B quota and significantly underpay their employees compared to industry wages. ... It's mostly the low quality outsourcing shops like Infosys, TCS, Wipro, HCL, and Cognizant.

Stupid question: Can you feasibly fix this by restricting it to large companies like that? Isn't that just going to cause them to split into several companies, like NIS ("Not-Infosys") and TNI ("Totally Not Infosys").

wyldfire• 10 years ago

the program is not being used to bring over workers with "specialized knowledge" as they claim--but to drive down wages.

While that might or might not be the intent, it seems like a pretty likely effect, right? Just based on the additional supply alone?

I wonder about the effect of cutting back H1-B visas too much. If it made salaries rise significantly, wouldn't it upset the social hierarchy of these businesses? Software devs being so scarce that they're getting paid more than executives, e.g.? Seems like working with more foreign software firms is almost a given if costs skyrocket like that.

deepGem2• 10 years ago

I think a generic rhetoric that Indian outsourcing companies just drive down wages is plain wrong. Most of the contracts that these guys bag are long term maintenance type contracts. The companies that are awarding these contracts are doing so mostly because they are stuck with legacy software that are hard to replace. The replacements costs are typically higher than the 5 year maintenance costs. It's no wonder that the people who are employed for these type of roles are paid less. In other words, the market determines the price. Infosys and the like are just optimising for profitability, like any other public company.

Given how competitive the market for talent is, H1B employees of these companies are always free to find other jobs. Since they already have a H1B visa, transfers are possible. Agreed not all companies will sponsor a transfer but many do. Even startups. Some lower quality body shops try to enforce some 'bonded contract' but that is illegal and will never fly in labour courts.

So no, the outsourcing companies are not underpaying talented people. They are just paying the correct price determined by the market for that particular aggregated job function.

berndsf• 10 years ago

(So, if you are one of five experts in the world on say, mining safety, you still have to wait 10 years for a permanent residency just by virtue of where you were born.)

that's not correct. that person would be eligible for an O1. I haven't heard of any plans to change the mechanisms of the O1 visa

shas36• 10 years ago

Let's assume that such a person passes a triage for O1 (there's no guarantee! Suppose there are two companies using some very specific technology, first company in the US poaches an employee from the Shanghai office of the second company for his narrow skill in this technology- would he necessarily be an individual with extraordinary ability? Unique ability, yes. Extraordinary "genius"? Hard to say).

There is a significant difference between H1B and O1, which is the burden for evidence. The burden for O1 is quite onerous compared to H1B. You have to present several reference letters, meet strict criteria for excellence, and even then it is not guaranteed. There is a fair amount of inconsistency in how O1 (or EB1) cases are adjudicated.

uiri2• 10 years ago

Since this might be relevant for some startup founders on here, I have a slight nitpick related to the 15% number. There are still thresholds for employers with 50 or fewer employees.

    Total Employees | threshold to be classified a H-1B dependent employer
    25 or fewer     | more than 7 H-1B immigrants
    26 - 50         | more than 12 H-1B immigrants
    51 or more      | at least 15% of total employees

Note the discontinuity at 50/51 - 8 is over 15% of 51.

throwaway729• 10 years ago

Note the discontinuity at 50/51 - 8 is over 15% of 51.

Wow, that's really terribly designed and risks creating a disincentive to growth for companies that would otherwise be growing quickly. Someone should write their Congresspeople about this discontinuity.

smb062• 10 years ago

What company is going to sponsor H1B visa for anyone that costs $100,000 and isn't a Comp Sc grad in the Bay Area?

There are a LOT of other professions where H1B visa holders add a lot of value to the US economy. It's not just CS grads in SF.

shas36• 10 years ago

Bay Area is not just software. There are big pharma companies, financial firms, non-software roles in software companies, etc.

sjg007• 10 years ago

The mining safety individual could qualify under an O visa or even have their own consulting company....

EduardoBautista4• 10 years ago

Starting a consulting company won't get you a green card. At best you will have an infinitely renewable work permit if you qualify for the E2 visa.

partycoder3• 10 years ago

You can have a large sales workforce working on 100% commission and play with that percentage.

suryacom12• 10 years ago

On one talks about the actual issue with the H1B. I'm a H1B holder from India, living and working in USA for past 10 years. The actual incentive for companies is that, an H1B holder from India has less rights, they cannot change job or even travel freely outside USA (for decades). That gives the employers full control of the employee. Any guess why companies only recruit from India and China? Because, the country based wait time -- to become a US citizen -- is decades for these countries. So, consultancies will have no problem paying higher salary for someone from India or China.

Immigration Attorneys are making a fortune of this broken system; for e.g., every year my company has to pay attorney fee to renew my visa. Any time I change my job, green card process has to be restarted from square one..more cash to attorneys.

P.S. I remember when I first came here 10 years back I was told by the attorney to wait for 5 years to be a resident. Last year, in 2016, when I went to another attorney he too tells me to wait for another 5 years. So, they never tells the actual wait time is 50 to 70 years. Even the USCIS don't disclose the actual wait time. So, hundreds of thousands highs killed immigrants place all their bets based on the words of Immigration Attorney and get into a mess from where they find hard to get out.

[Edit]: In my opinion, a possible fix shall be to give H1B holder job mobility. I.e., if TCS/Infosys brings in H1B holders to replace American workers; and those H1B holders leave TCS/Infosys the next day; then that business model will not work to begin with.

suryacom12• 10 years ago

If TCS/Infosys brings in H1B folks to replace American workers; and those H1B folks leave TCS/Infosys the next day; then that business model will not work to begin with.

DashRattlesnake• 10 years ago

Personally, I'd have no problem with that.

tn135• 10 years ago

Any time I change my job, green card process has to be restarted from square one..more cash to attorneys.

That is not true. Visa can be transferred in mere 15 days. Why dont you change jobs?

suryacom12• 10 years ago

Visa can be transferred. But, Green Card process has to be restarted from the square one; that is +10k for attorney.

neosaurus• 10 years ago

While the visa can be transferred over in a short span, I believe OP is talking about the GC process, which does have to be restarted. It can be ported over depending on the application status and if the new position matches in role to the original application.

From personal experience I can say that this takes up to two years or longer to get back to status quo in the GC process after switching jobs and reapplying. This is a major disincentive for switching even if there's better pay and position on offer. It also makes talented H1B workers stay away from startups as the GC application process is safer when sponsored by established companies.

Nrsolis2• 10 years ago

This is something that I've long suspected was going on with the H1B system.

In essence, we have a limited "guest worker" program that allocates most of the economic benefits to the company (in terms of a compliant workforce that has little incentive or ability to take their skills to a competing company that might offer a better salary or career options) while allocating most of the costs to the actual H1B workers AND the US Citizens and permanent residents who have to compete with a pool of workers that will accept lower pay with little in the way of bargaining power. Great deal for companies. Terrible deal for individual workers (on both sides).

I can sympathize with a company having trouble hiring talent. There is an acute shortage of capable, knowledgeable workers trained in the skills that industry needs. I just happen to think that the H1B program is a poor solution to it.

The better option would be for us to offer a form of permanent legal residency to workers who have critical skills that make them attractive to industry. Once they are here, permanent residency along with all of the benefits that entails (freedom to travel, freedom to change jobs) should be part of the package.

I know we do something like this using a scoring system but frankly I think it's administered very poorly based on what I've heard from others. We can do better.

I don't like the idea of a permanent underclass with fewer rights than others. We should encourage emigration and settlement from cultures that integrate well with ours and have the best possible chance of success in our social and economic systems.

Too little is written about the cadre of interests that benefit from illegal immigration of low-status individuals. It may seem cruel, but we do nobody a favor by allowing illegal immigrants to hide in the shadows and subject themselves to abuse at the hands of those that would profit from their lack of power or ability to go to the government for help.

davidw5• 10 years ago

allocating most of the costs to the actual H1B workers

If it were not a good option for them, they wouldn't sign up for it, so it has more benefits than costs for them.

In terms of competition.... IT is a very globalized industry already.

permanent legal residency to workers who have critical skills that make them attractive to industry. Once they are here, permanent residency along with all of the benefits that entails (freedom to travel, freedom to change jobs)

Yes!

whyileft2• 10 years ago

There is an acute shortage of capable, knowledgeable workers trained in the skills that industry needs.

Just like there is an acute shortage of NFL Quarterbacks that are capable of leading a team to a super bowl championship.

The problem with this skills gap myth is that we are looking for people who are better than most of their peers in the industry. The will always be a shortage of top 10% performers in the industry because the top 10% of the industry will always be the same amount.

EDIT: I should just clarify that I'm absolutely in favor of people coming from other countries to work in the US. That said, the H1B in its current form is often just indentured servitude and definitely needs to be adjusted. My statement is specifically addressing the skills gap myth.

79d697i6fdif• 10 years ago

The root of the problem with H1B is that despite a bunch of laws meant to make sure that these workers are paid and treated the same as US citizens, that isn't happening at a lot of companies. This is creating a huge demand for visa workers as a kind of indentured servitude. This isn't a good situation for US citizens or visa workers.

If the laws are fixed by, for instance, making it far easier to switch jobs on a visa, H1B workers will be treated a lot better. Demand for visa workers will probably drop somewhat but it will be more in line with what the visa program was made for: to hire talent not slaves.

hibikir2• 10 years ago

It's not that hard to switch jobs once you have an H1B: The hard part is to do so while trying to get a green card.

Ultimately, the tremendous wait times for everyone in the 00s, and now the tremendous lines only for a few countries, come down to the maximum number of green card numbers being vastly inferior to the number of people that qualify for said visas and are already living and working in the US.

Even in cases where your employer isn't trying to actively exploit you, the difficulty at changing jobs during the green card process depresses wages. I come from Europe, but I came in as an EB3 in 2000, so I had to wait a good 7 years. I was the highest paid engineer in our small department, and the only foreigner, but I was worth a lot more in the open market than what my employer paid. My salary tripled in the next three years afterwards, as I was paid an entry level salary while being qualified for being a principal engineer at a far bigger shop.

But everyone talks about the H1B program, instead of just opening permanent residency to people that are, in practice, already permanent residents, just with less rights.

diogenescynic3• 10 years ago

Immigration Attorneys are making a fortune of this broken system

Those same law firms hire lobbyists to make sure the system remains complicated and inefficient. Also, all the law firms that service tech companies have almost 100% of the work done by recent college grads for very low pay. Ever wondered why your L-1/H-1/I-140 support letter has so many errors? It's because it was a generic template that some recent college grad spent an hour on and you paid $3000 for an attorney to sign the G-28 form. Oh, and many immigration lawyers haven't even passed the Bar exam for the state they practice in--they can practice having passed the Bar in any state. These are the bottom of the barrel law jobs, IMHO.

baloneyman• 10 years ago

I guess it depends on your perspective. Is it the older workers who rake in enormous paychecks for incrementally far less work or is it younger workers who work for much less to make a name for themselves and establish their career?

yellow_viper4• 10 years ago

Green cards too. My family moved out of America a few months after my dads work had secured us greecards at a total of $350,000 (iirc - for the family of 7). These were voided as we didn't stay in the country long enough to validate them - what a waste.

ashwinaj16• 10 years ago

they cannot change job

Correction: You can change jobs, but the green card process needs to start again but you keep your priority date. EDIT: You can change jobs to another "similar" position i.e. the job responsibilities should be similar. You can't move from an individual contributer to a manager position for example. In this case, the green card application will have to be done again.

That gives the employers full control of the employee

Only if you let them. You are free to leave to another job, but many are risk averse. The employers expolit this; personally I am a risk taker so I don't see this as a hindrance.

So, hundreds of thousands highs killed immigrants

Calling each and everyone highly skilled is questionable. A lot of H1B employees (and local employees for that matter) do not do highly skilled work, relatively speaking. I know this is controversial statement, but please be honest and avoid hyperbole.

suryacom12• 10 years ago

What you mean by you are a risk taker? You have no idea what you are comparing here.

Will you risk your family getting deported due to a clerical error? Once H1B lose his job, he and his family has to leave the country in 15 days. Sell his house, pull kids out from school, etc. All this arises whenever H1B tries to change the job.

geebee4• 10 years ago

I agree with your corrections, to an extent. However, it is also important to note that an H1B holder is limited in the kind of jobs he or she can take. An H1B holder would have a very difficult time changing fields or entering a very different kind of employment. Becoming a private consultant, or leaving the tech field for other, perhaps better, opportunities is not really an option.

So while I certainly agree with you that "they cannot change job" is inaccurate I also believe the statement "you are free to leave to another job" is misleading. You have some very limited mobility rights, but nothing approaching what a free member of the labor market would have (sadly, this is a big part of the appeal of these visas to many employers).

throwaway2017ab5• 10 years ago

have you ever thought about yourself as a "risk taker", about getting a greencard ? in 70 years ? Maybe you might have already got it through the L1A loophole fake experience method or future GC abuse method. Do not measure everyone else with the same cup.

rtpg3• 10 years ago

So there's un-needed friction on the H-1B process that serves only to lower wages.

Remove the link between H-1B visa holders and their employers and suddenly all that wage depression disappears!

In Japan, while an employer can sponsor your work visa, after you obtain the visa you can change jobs at will (so long as its still within the broad category of visa you were given). You just need to signal the change of employer to the immigration office.

brendangregg8• 10 years ago

"You are free to leave to another job"

You SHOULD be free to quit, you're right about that. But some companies have figured out ways to stop it. If anyone is ever in that situation -- you have to get your own immigration lawyers to represent you, and not the company.

findjashua3• 10 years ago

"Any time I change my job, green card process has to be restarted from square one"

The most time-consuming part of the process is waiting for your priority date to be current. Once you have your priority date, restarting the process through another company shouldn't really make a difference, since you can just reuse the existing priority date instead of getting a new one.

Theoretically, you can lose your priority date if the previous company cancels your I140. But since it costs thousands of dollars to do that, most companies don't bother.

joering22• 10 years ago

Oh, and while you're on it.. don't lose that Green Card!

It costs about $27 in Cali to get a dup of your lost DL [1]; while your Green Card replacement costs... $450! [2]

[1] http://www.dmv.org/ca-california/replace-license.php

[2] https://www.bridge.us/articles/misplace-green-card/

Its very obvious USCIS prays on the fact that most immigrants do not make enough money to actually hire (expensive) lawyer and take them to the court and fight this outrageous fee down to something reasonable. Obviously US citizens have no standing in such lawsuit cause one thing USC can never get is a Green Card :)

ojbyrne• 10 years ago

I'd say lots of immigrants have the money. What they don't have is a vote.

melvinmt• 10 years ago

take them to the court

On the base of what, though? It's well known that the USCIS is mostly self sustained (e.g. minimal government funding) so that money has to come from somewhere. I believe the thought is that getting a visa/permanent residency is considered a privilege, not a right.

smm2000• 10 years ago

If you are poor, you can ask USCIS to waive the replacement fee - agency is actually quite accommodating. Obviously it won't work for 99.99% software engineer who actually has money to pay.

Also suing for $450 is ridiculous whether you have money or not. It is a cost of average traffic ticket and most people just pay it without involving any lawyer.

aianus3• 10 years ago

Any guess why companies only recruit from India and China?

There are loads of Canadians [0] on TNs and H1Bs in the US and most don't particularly care about ever getting a green card. How do you explain their presence if you believe companies only recruit foreigners from poor countries in order to exploit their desire for US residency?

[0] https://techvibes.com/2012/02/24/there-are-350000-canadians-...

suryacom12• 10 years ago

You missed my point. It is not about poor countries. Indian's and Chinese will not have job mobility for decades. That is the reason, last year, 80%+ of H1B visas went to Indian/Chinese nationals.

arcseco• 10 years ago

TN visa restrictions are much less onerous to an employer and employee than an H1B. Similar culture and less restrictive language barriers are also benefits that might lead an employer to hire a Canadian. I would suggest that the first point is the likely culprit for the number of Canadians employed in the US.

yardie• 10 years ago

If you're Canadian why are you getting a H1B? Get a TN. It's simpler, faster, and way less onerous than a H1B.

geodel• 10 years ago

What is unsaid is when a Canadian worker in US gets laid off or just decide to leave (s)he is just moving in first world. Apart from less pay, living standards are pretty much same in US and Canada. But if Indian worker gets laid off it will be drastic change in living standard by going back.

Even very high Indian salary would not buy that US lifestyle. Of course many people will like to couch that fact as having friends' circle in US, kids schooling etc makes it difficult to relocate.

mavelikara5• 10 years ago

https://fromthelandofgandhifilm.com/ is a great documentary about the hardships faced by people on H-1B from India or China waiting for their Green Cards.

saiya-jin• 10 years ago

A bit different topic - for somebody who spent last 10 years in US, your English is pretty bad. If staying in US is such a high priority to you, I suggest working on that part

eli_gottlieb5• 10 years ago

[Edit]: In my opinion, a possible fix shall be to give H1B holder job mobility. I.e., if TCS/Infosys brings in H1B holders to replace American workers; and those H1B holders leave TCS/Infosys the next day; then that business model will not work to begin with.

That, and to switch to a simple points system like most other Anglo countries use. If you have enough points, your residency clock starts ticking as soon as you start working and living in the USA, and doesn't reset or stop unless you commit a serious crime. If the clock counts all the way down, bam, Green Card.

blinkingled2• 10 years ago

This will just increase outsourcing - I wonder if there's a law that's going to address that too - a tariff for software and services brought from outside the country.

Seriously, attacking H1B problem purely with salary raises is the wrong approach for many reasons - not all jobs cost a 100k that you can always find American workers to do, it doesn't consider cost of living and further entices companies to look into having offshore workforce. Instead, a slight upward salary adjustment including cost of living adjustments and untying the VISA itself from employer so H1Bs can change jobs freely and making the extension process match the residency delays will go far ways in addressing abuse.

ksk2• 10 years ago

a tariff for software and services brought from outside the country.

Its an interdependent world, and such things will probably cause another global depression. "While you're squeezing the other guy's balls, someone else has their hands on your balls"

Outsourcing is not a very black and white issue. For one thing, people can't simultaneously claim that "My employers are able to recognize my talent" while also claiming that "My employers are unable to recognize the lack of talent of those other people"

blinkingled2• 10 years ago

Oh I am absolutely not advocating tariff on outsourcing, far from it. I actually prefer a balanced system hardened against abuse - it's just that there's so much hot headedness going on right now I was wondering if more protectionism in the name of creating jobs is on the way.

camus2• 10 years ago

This will just increase outsourcing

No it won't, outsourcing IT to a third world country, India or China is incredibly hard and costly. In fact I know no big corporation which successfully outsourced their entire IT department. Plenty tried and failed, for many reasons.

tn135• 10 years ago

Classic case of no-skin-in-the-game politicians making rules about other people with dubious objectives to be achieved using naive policies.

davidw5• 10 years ago

Why not take a courageous approach and let people in who want to work? Don't tie them to one job. Don't pick arbitrary numbers of the 'right' number of immigrants. Don't try ever more complex schemes based on where people live and what job they do. Keep the government involved to vet them in terms of avoiding criminals, and let the market handle how many people to bring in, not government bureaucrats and politicians.

I mean, IT work is pretty easy to outsource, so make it hard enough for talented people to come to the US and the work will just get shipped abroad.

http://johnhcochrane.blogspot.com/2014/06/the-optimal-number...

serge2k4• 10 years ago

You would tank salaries.

davidw5• 10 years ago

I doubt it. IT work is pretty easy to send abroad as it is, so if an employer is only looking at cost, that's already been an option for the past 10/15 years. It's only going to get easier in the future.

And if it were, across the board, a lot of other things would get a bit cheaper too, no?

Also:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lump_of_labour_fallacy

slaveofallah93• 10 years ago

In the short run, maybe. After the market reaches equilibrium, no.

nugget• 10 years ago

One challenge is that people who grew up in America have totally different expectations in terms of quality of life and living standards than immigrants from poor countries who are willing to move here and start from scratch. A poor kid from India or China might move to Silicon Valley or NYC and spend a decade sharing a studio with 4-5 others in his/her situation, just for the chance to escape poverty back home. Is it fair to force two people from such different backgrounds to compete? Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Either way, the American citizens who you are forcing to compete against a global labor pool all have the right to vote, and may cause unexpected political turbulence, which is what we saw in this last election (and, my gut says, just the tip of the iceberg in terms of what's to come).

davidw5• 10 years ago

They are already competing, though.

You're probably right that we need to do something to ameliorate the worst effects of global competition and automation, but keeping talented people out (the number of H1B visas is totally dwarfed by people on family visas anyway) is probably not going to help.

harigov• 10 years ago

Would you use the same reasoning when selling American products in foreign markets? Folks from poor countries struggle with lack of facilities/nutrition and try to produce some stuff in competition with those with better facilities/lives from US and have to compete in the same marketplace head-on. Both of them have advantages/disadvantages but one group has the strength to push others in the form of trade rules. So why should we have free trade in the form of goods but not in the form of labor?

rtpg3• 10 years ago

OK so this guy from India shows up, shares a studio with 4-5 others.

Then Twitter offers them quadruple the salary to join them instead.

This is an _entirely solved problem_ if it were not for immigration rules. Jobs with shitty pay will get outcompeted by jobs with better pay. Or those jobs just don't get filled in the first place!

We already see this in the restaurant business. Really shitty jobs at minimum(or waiter minimum) wage are all over the place. They used to be filled by people coming in from central America as undocumented immigrants, but even they got tired of the bad jobs. So now they sit vacant, because nobody wants them.

eli_gottlieb5• 10 years ago

A poor kid from India or China might move to Silicon Valley or NYC and spend a decade sharing a studio with 4-5 others in his/her situation, just for the chance to escape poverty back home. Is it fair to force two people from such different backgrounds to compete?

You know, when four to five people share a studio, that's not just a labor competition issue. That's a fire code issue.

TillE• 10 years ago

I think Germany strikes a good balance: jobs must first be offered to German and EU citizens, and then you get a work visa that's tied to one company for a few years. After that, it's fairly painless to get an unrestricted visa and then permanent residency.

throw345hn• 10 years ago

One of the problems with the highest bidder approach its going to favor senior devs. This is good thing but you also have to look at graduates who have come to the US to study and may not be able to earn that much immediately but are just as likely to earn a lot more in a few years. If the ruling forces them to move them, then it will result in draining the talent.

forrestthewoods• 10 years ago

Agreed. It would be absurd to open our universities to foreign talent only to deny them local jobs.

BhavdeepSethi• 10 years ago

Students from universities already have an OPT valid for 36 months (12+24), which is sufficient time to move to the highest bidder approach.

nishs2• 10 years ago

(12+24)

The 24 month extension is only available to STEM graduates.

chrisper2• 10 years ago

It's 12 + 12 if you are stem. Not 12 + 24.

jedberg• 10 years ago

They really need to couple it with an automatic conversion of a student visa to a work visa upon graduating an accredited four year institution. You would need some protections to make sure that the university isn't just a funnel for back door visas, like requiring at least 50% enrollment by citizens or something like that, but it would be a great way to entice smart people to come here and stay here. And in fact remove a lot of the stress of graduating for a foreign student.

findjashua3• 10 years ago

The real problem with H1B, that outsourcing firms exploit, is the lottery system. Issa's proposal doesn't address that problem. Zoe Lofgren's bill, which replaces the lottery with a salary ranking system, would be much more effective, in my opinion.

http://money.cnn.com/2017/01/06/technology/h1b-reform-bill/

hibikir2• 10 years ago

We didn't have a lottery system a decade ago: What we had was big quotas, but the same number of green cards as we've had for many decades. So instead of a useless H1-B system which only helped big outsourcers, what we had was a big H1B population that had to wait even longer to get permanent residency. Make green cards quotas bigger and people that will stay here anyway will just spend a lot less time as indentured servants, making them far less interesting to the companies that are actually exploitative.

But that sounds like we are bringing in more immigrants, and that's not something that the now suddenly very protectionist US will want to do.

mavelikara5• 10 years ago

Of the 1M people immigrating every year, only 14% goes to skilled workers on H-1B. Of these both the primary applicant and their family get counted separately, so the actual number is closer to 7%.

Of these 7%, there is a per-country limits - Iceland (population 320K) and India (population 1.2B) both are allotted the same number of Green Cards. These limits treat each nation equally, but not immigrant equally. Applicants from Iceland get their Green Card in few months, but those from India will have to wait many years to get theirs.

This is broken.

cthalupa5• 10 years ago

Without a provision to account for recent grads, this is also a terrible bill.

Recent grads are going to be competing against people with years of experience, and the pay is going to reflect this. That means there's less reason for kids to go to school in the US, since they're going to have to leave, or if they do go, we lose that talent. They might not be paid as much as someone coming in with more experience, but they might ultimately provide more long term value to the country.

Ideally I'd like a new visa without a lottery system that basically guarantees graduates of US universities a chance to live and work in the country after graduation.

Why in the world should we institute something that would result in brain drain?

findjashua3• 10 years ago

I agree - there should be a separate quota for students graduating from top-tier universities.

jinglbox• 10 years ago

This is an attempt by the corrupt Darrel Issa to help H1B fraudsters continue their wage theft.

This bill is an attempt to get out in front of any real reform by making it seem unnecessary. A child's trick. The fact is that everyone knows that Silicon Valley corporations like Google, Facebook, and Apple use H1B fraud to suppress (steal) wages.

You don't have to be even one ounce xenophobic or racist to think it's wrong that American corporations hire foreign workers into indenture servitude instead of paying free American workers more money... Look at the job descriptions on the H1B disclosure sites...those are all just regular jobs in Silicon Valley anyone would do for the right money... Fraud.

dmode3• 10 years ago

Google, Apple, and Facebook are literally the highest paying companies in the world. If that is an example of "suppressed wages"...

flamedoge2• 10 years ago

His complaint is that it isn't higher than Snoop Dogg

jasonlotito• 10 years ago

Well, keep in mind Apple, Google, and others were behind a wage fixing scheme[1] that kept salaries lower. And because people see them as the highest paying companies, that negatively impacts everyone's wages in the industry.

So, yes, it is an example of "suppressed wages," and if you think stealing from people is alright, I'm not sure what to say.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L...

serge2k4• 10 years ago

The fact is that everyone knows that Silicon Valley corporations like Google, Facebook, and Apple use H1B fraud to suppress (steal) wages.

Just how much do you think they should be paying?

Look at the job descriptions on the H1B disclosure sites...those are all just regular jobs in Silicon Valley anyone would do for the right money...

and they hire loads of Americans as well. They hire people who pass the interview.

edgan• 10 years ago

They have different standards for different groups. If you are a second tier employee or contractor they they know they can pay less and treat worse they hire you for positions that they don't care about as much.

dmode3• 10 years ago

I support many H1B reforms - it is essentially a broken program. Canadian and Australian immigration systems provide a good model to build off of a successful high skilled guest worker program. Of course, like everything in the US, an army of lobbyists will prevent such common sense programs to be implemented.

Raising the minimum wage to 100K is the wrong approach. Computer science degree programs are a major source of development talent for many organizations, and I doubt most companies will be willing to pay 100K for jr developers graduating out of Master's program. This will start a weird loop were US higher education will no longer be attractive and talent pools will dwindle with universities suffering from major revenue shortfalls. And if students start going back to their native countries after a US higher education, it just enriches the talent pool abroad making outsourcing even more compelling.

Further, there are a number of professions outside of software that employ H1B candidates to perform important roles - mechanical engineers, industrial engineers, earthquake analysts etc Those fields have even more shortage of talent and a minimum 100K wage will further shrink the talent pool.

cbhl• 10 years ago

CS grads can easily make over 110k with a Bachelor's on H1B in the SF Bay Area.

If you're looking to hire someone for less than that... hire an American!

cthalupa5• 10 years ago

In the SF Bay Area.

There are plenty of people who have no desire to live in places with that high of a cost of living.

kevin_thibedeau2• 10 years ago

But those markets and NYC are basically the only place to get those starting salaries and only in narrowly scoped fields that are "hot".

nness• 10 years ago

Coincidentally, Australian's can apply for a high-skilled 2-year working visa with the US, the E3 visa (separate from the H1B). Whenever I hear the US discuss visa reforms, I panic a little that they'd alter or outright scrap the E3 visa.

throwaway2017ab5• 10 years ago

I am a beneficiary of such a program in Canada called Express Entry. I quit my H1B job in US and is currently working in Canada and my Permanent residence process is in progress. I expect to get it within an year. I was selected based on my skills rather than my luck(H1B lottery) Canada's express entry system is a skill based immigration system. I think Australia's is similar. Under the Canada's system, the visa is not tied to the employer and if you have the skills(express entry point system), you get permanent residence.

eli_gottlieb5• 10 years ago

For those wondering how Canada's system works (I've been looking into it), you get points based on the following simple factors:

* Age

* Language skills (English and French, measured via standardized exams)

* Level of education

* Level of education and/or job experience in Canada

* Job offer

* Desired destination to live in (easier to move if you want to go somewhere underpopulated)

* Personal savings to prevent you becoming a burden

If you get enough points, they invite you to obtain Canadian permanent residency. If you don't, you can still get a work visa, work for a while, and re-apply later. Compared to the US immigration system, it's freakishly straightforward and reasonable.

New Zealand is even simpler: they'll just start your residency process based on the mere existence of a job offer and a few checkboxes regarding age, language, and education. They've got a whole "Move to New Zealand" website now, with pretty pictures, clear instructions, and government webpages bragging about their high quality-of-life.

It really leaves one thinking, wow, this is what a First World country acts like.

flukus3• 10 years ago

The Australian one certainly isn't an example to look to. Reading through these comments, almost all of the criticisms can be equally applied to ours. Plus, we often have jobs like hair dressing that fit into the "highly skilled" category.

ebbv2• 10 years ago

We need to open our borders and let anyone who wants to come live and work in the US come here. Fear of foreigners is a poison in the heart of this country. Previous generations of immigrants have made the US what it is. The H1B program benefits the companies at the expense of the people for b.s. reasons.

I say let anyone come here who wants to and if they can hold a job for 5 years and they pay taxes make them a citizen. People are generally good and xenophobia is stupid.

politician2• 10 years ago

This is a dangerous idea.

Let everyone in, and then watch housing prices shoot to infinity.

Let everyone in, and watch cities deteriorate into slums with the associated no-go areas and warlords.

Let everyone in, let them drive wages to zero. Let everyone starve.

This is what you're advocating?

Previous generations of immigrants have made the US what it is.

Previous generations had a physical barrier in the form of transportation costs to the US. Today, we have airplanes and autos. Transportation costs are a fraction of what they were in the Ellis Island era.

Have you seen the housing situation in Rio? The food lines in Venezuela? The intense poverty in India? The pollution in China?

We don't have the technological or social controls to handle the affects of high population density that would be the result of accepting your Open Borders proposal.

ebbv2• 10 years ago

Your xenophobia is really sad.

The US won't turn into Venezuela, Brazil or China because immigrants come here.

Additionally, jobs won't go to zero because more population creates more demand for goods and services which necessitates more jobs.

This same absurd argument you're making was used to stoke fears about Irish and Italian immigrants in the past. Now we realize how stupid it was then. It's just as stupid now.

dragonwriter• 10 years ago

We need to open our borders and let anyone who wants to come live and work in the US come here.

No, we don't. As well as the fact that there are genuine undesirables that should be denied entry, there are costs associated with level of immigration that need to be addressed.

There are, I think, clearly better ways of dealing with that than the particulars of our current system of categories and quotas, and the best would not, IMO, have hard limitd, but immigration with no controls is not a reasonable answer.

jtcond13• 10 years ago

It's hard to think of another political issue on which the public has been so completely fooled. Your average man-on-the-street really thinks these go to, like, PhDs who are desperately needed in a lab somewhere. But no, they're for pumping the bottom line of Infosys, Tata, Cognizant, et. al.

raspasov2• 10 years ago

If you're really worried about someone from abroad coming and stealing your job, you should probably work harder and smarter yourself.

Can't help but feel that most Americans don't have a legitimate fear of someone stealing their job and this is just a politicians' dumb game to try to make themselves feel important by pretending they are increasing employment and "doing something for their people". Total crap.

raspasov2• 10 years ago

Whoever is going to down vote me - watch this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVXYmMNwGXM and then come back and give me the vote back :).

kevin_thibedeau2• 10 years ago

I would like to see a requirement for contracting companies to keep at least 51% of their domestic staff as US citizens. It's obscene that businesses are allowed to game the H1B program by staffing through these middlemen. That is not the original intent for these visas.

After the Disney fiasco it's clear that the rules for which jobs qualify need to be tightened up. There is no way rank and file IT skills are so special that guest workers need to be brought in.

nsxwolf• 10 years ago

I found the whole Disney affair to be confusing. I thought the H1B rules were written to specifically disallow what they did. I didn't think you were allowed to use H1B labor to replace US citizens who are already employed.

codeonfire3• 10 years ago

It's not only obscene but completely racist and violates employment law in a very open and flagrant way. There should be a lot more lawsuits like this:

http://www.computerworld.com/article/3137500/it-careers/info...

luckydata7• 10 years ago

I'm a liberal AND an immigrant and I strongly favor a reduction in the availability of H1B visas, they are a tool for wage control and nothing else.

vadym909• 10 years ago

Why $100K makes sense. Data from 2014 showing how many H1b and the average salary for the top H1b seekers. The legit companies are paying on average >$100K

Infosys 32,379 $76,494 Tcs 8,785 $66,113 Wipro 6,733 $69,953 Igate 2,056 $67,168 Cognizan 1,704 $67,506 L & T 4,380 $59,933 Hcl 3,012 $81,376 Tech Mah 2,249 $73,374 Ust Glob 1,549 $73,374

Deloitte 8,028 $85,295 Ibm 5,839 $87,789 Accenture5,099 $70,878 E& Y 2,188 $88,353 NttData 1,156 $100,889

Microsft 3,911 $113,408 Qualcom 3,086 $105,169 Google 2,163 $126,565 Intel 1,945 $102,883 Oracle 1,773 $113,065 Amazon 1,256 $109,409 Jpmorgan 1,256 $105,837 Apple 1,038 $130,690

mavelikara5• 10 years ago

Your data presented with better formatting:

        Infosys	        32,379       $76,494 
        TCS              8,785       $66,113 
        Wipro	         6,733       $69,953 
        IGate            2,056       $67,168 
        Cognizant        1,704       $67,506 
        L & T            4,380       $59,933 
        HCL              3,012       $81,376 
        Tech Mahindra    2,249       $73,374 
        UST Global       1,549       $73,374
                                     
        Deloitte         8,028       $85,295 
        IBM              5,839       $87,789 
        Accenture        5,099       $70,878 
        E & Y            2,188       $88,353 
        NttData          1,156      $100,889
                                    
        Microsft         3,911      $113,408 
        Qualcom	         3,086      $105,169 
        Google	         2,163      $126,565 
        Intel	         1,945      $102,883 
        Oracle           1,773      $113,065 
        Amazon	         1,256      $109,409 
        JP Morgan        1,256      $105,837 
        Apple	         1,038      $130,690

rodgerd• 10 years ago

Always entertaining watching the HN zeitgeist on H-1Bs or offshoring of tech jobs and contrasting it with the attitude to, say, the elimination of millions of trucking or retail jobs.

Clubber• 10 years ago

Most of the opinions I read consider the eliminating millions of trucking jobs would be horrible for the middle class and are for a living wage to attempt to combat it.

partycoder3• 10 years ago

This post might be hard to read, but believe me I wish to be as respectful as possible and contribute my perspective.

Economy follows the path of least resistance. If hiring a local costs $120,000 but a guy you can message via LinkedIn and interview over the phone can do the same work for $80,000 with less negotiating power and less job mobility, then you do it. If you don't do it, your competitor or someone else will and then use the advantage to beat you in the market. The path of least resistance is also the reason companies move their headquarters to tax havens.

Then, there is a culture issue. Americans are very competitive, even in situations where the best strategy is to collaborate. It can be hard to work with someone who you know will compete at any opportunity even when it makes no sense at all, like getting angry when receiving a suggestion no matter the intention.

Then, everyone is defensive of what is said and how it is said because basically anything can get you sued. The most valuable American management skill is basically how to avoid getting the company sued. Like saying everything on a 1 on 1 meeting with no witnesses or record of it happening.

Then, Americans can hop jobs easily. Make someone angry (e.g: giving feedback, assigning a boring task or project) and that person will quit. Not so easily with H-1Bs.

This creates a culture where it is cheaper to set people for failure and fire them rather than giving them proper feedback, or letting them spend millions in reinventing the wheel with a pet project rather than seeing them go en-masse.

sunilkumarc• 10 years ago

Is this bill is passed, what does it mean for a person in India who wants to apply(from India) and get hired by a US company who has a very good skill set but doesn't have a master's degree?

whenwillitstop2• 10 years ago

It means you arent welcome

nishs2• 10 years ago

Be civil [0]. That was blunt, non-constructive, and perhaps mildly xenophobic.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

anirudh24seven• 10 years ago

Does this affect remote working in any manner? I am from India and have considered working remotely in later stages of my career. I have no intentions of leaving India and moving to the US, but I might be applying to organizations within the US.

baristaGeek• 10 years ago

Isn't it a HUGE problem that it's not discriminated by cities according to its living costs?

I'm not an expert in macroeconomic policy but I guess it wouldn't be so hard ad doing the discrimination for say the minimum salary, as business owners/shareholders tend to have a better understanding of the concept of the price index than minimum salary earners.

And I'm saying this because tech companies in the Bay Area won't have such a hard time following this rule than startups in cheaper cities.

Which would be a recoil in terms of making all America have knowledge-based industries. Wouldn't it?

As for people taking the H-1B, would this be something better? Or worse?

sratner• 10 years ago

It is discriminated by city. Prevailing wage for the labour certification is a function of location, position, and level. I am assuming the article is just talking about raising the bottom end of the scale, but can't be sure - it is certainly light on details.

general_ai6• 10 years ago

Long time reader, first time poster. Both lawmakers being Califoria democrats, I don't trust this one bit. Hear me out on this one. I have actually experienced the H1B system on my own hide.

As others have mentioned in the comments, today H1B is basically indentured servitude visa. While theoretically you can move to another job, few people dare, especially if they have families, because in case of any screwup whatsoever, you have to leave the country within 2 weeks. That's _insane_. When I was H1-B I chose to wait until I got the green card before making any moves. That took 8 years, during which I did not quite made the kind of career progress I was hoping for. Now that I'm not an H1B, _magically_ I have no problems whatsoever with advancing my career. What a bizarre coincidence.

And I'm not Asian, for Asians it takes longer than that. Another type of abuse you often see (and that was the case with me) is companies hire a very experienced worker in a much lower level position than he ought to be in, considering the experience, and then keep them there until they either work up the courage to move, or get the green card.

The _real_ fix for this should be two fold:

1. Allow H1Bs to move more freely between jobs. If you're a programmer, you should be able to move into e.g. DevOps or Data Science, or DB administration without risking that some bureaucrat decides that's not an eligible transition.

2. Allow more time for them to do so, so they don't have to find another job before leaving their current one. Six months to a year ought to be enough. Implement a cliff of e.g. 1 year to make this more fair to employers if need be, but don't kick families out of the country in 2 weeks just because the breadwinner can't tolerate the abuse anymore.

This will make the market for H1B workers price-competitive with native workers (since they will be able to command market rates given their levels of experience), and DRAMATICALLY reduce abuse. That's literally all that needs to be done. This will also make it easier for people just out of school to get well paid jobs that would today be taken by overqualified and underpaid H1Bs, because the employer will not be able to exploit their ignorance of the job market for long.

Instead they are proposing some tactical bullshit that will only get in the way of a more comprehensive reform that the Trump administration might (or might not, the election is over) come up with.

randseq• 10 years ago

Factual correction (per first sentence of the article): Issa is a republican and the sponsor of the bill.

general_ai6• 10 years ago

Serves me right for not reading the article more carefully. Their proposal is, nevertheless, wrong in its approach to the problem. This can only be solved by putting constraints on the influx and removing constraints on mobility of the people the US does let in. With these two things in place, the rest of the issues will take care of themselves. As proposed $100K isn't much of a deterrent for abuse, seeing that even with $100K+ pay there's a shortage of _entry level_ talent in CA.

dmode3• 10 years ago

Darrell Isa is a senior Republican

throwaway2017ab5• 10 years ago

I was a full time H1B employee at AMEX for 3 years. Its not only the Indian outsourcing firms who abuse the H1B visa system. All American companies including AMEX also do that. The company never even had plans to give me a promotion, not even increase my salary a bit even though I worked hard than the Americans for 3 years !. They pretty well knew I was an indentured servant and paid me 79K/annum. All salary raises and promotions were going to a handful of lazy Americans who rolls into the office whenever they wish. They will never bother to fix bugs or do production releases( because for them, its not cool, we do only cool stuff like React,Angular 2, nodejs & docker. Customer escalated bugs are not cool, let an H1B slave do it).

Anyways, now I am an ex-H1B, I left US and currently residing in Canada with my permanent residence process well on track. I will get PR within 1+ years. No one is going to abuse my status in Canada. I am totally free to work anywhere for anyone. The feeling of freedom when I left US is so gratifying.

My PR process is not tied to my employer, its in my control and Canada's express entry system gives importance to my skills than my luck as in H1B. Its a good thing that the minimum wages are being raised, it will control the abuse to some levels,like they did to me, but then there is a problem of jobs being fully outsourced.

Why should I bother now. Its all behind me. US and its broken H1B immigration system ! Downvote all you want. I am happy, I broke out this modern slavery system.

usaphp2• 10 years ago

"I worked hard than the Americans for 3 years !. They pretty well knew I was an indentured servant and paid me 79K/annum. All salary raises and promotions were going to a handful of lazy Americans who rolls into the office whenever they wish."

You seem to have a pretty aggressive attitude towards people whose country gave you job and paid much more than you were making in your home country. You also seem to have a measure of how hard someone works based on when they come to work, in tech it's who works smartest not hardest is the most valuable.

"I am happy I broke out this modern slavery system"

Did Americans force you to come to states and work for them? It was your decision and you were always free to go and find something better in a different country if you wished.

thesagan• 10 years ago

I don't know. He might have had a choice between two shitty options, and took the less-shitty-but-still-shitty option. Many people don't want to go that far from home, friends, and family unless things need to immigrate for... tough reasons.

You know, fallacy of relative privation and such. And as a "native" American, many of us are, or look, lazy compared to a lot of H1-B workers; both of which I personally know many.

He's allowed to complain, because I'd like to be allowed to voice complaints from time to time, too. The Brits have the "chins up" monopoly, anyhow. ;)

(Don't get me wrong, I'm a pretty cheery guy.)

gdilla• 10 years ago

god forbid wanting to be treated fairly!

Manishearth5• 10 years ago

Are you aware that the majority of pre-revolution willing immigrants (so not counting slaves) to what eventually became the US came under indentured service? This is basically voluntary time-bound slavery. They, too, had a choice. They, too, had full rights to complain about it afterwards. It was a good thing that that was abolished.

Not everyone coming here is fully aware of the consequences of what they are doing or have been misled. Additionally, humans are allowed to change their minds; and as you get settled in the country you lose that opportunity. Indentured service was orders of magnitudes worse than what H1-B does but there are a lot of similarities in the situations involved and the arguments surrounding them.

rtpg3• 10 years ago

Amex seemed to have a pretty aggressive attitude towards a person who moved across the world to work for them.

Here's a person who had a job, paid taxes, participated in daily life, helped this company grow, and you think you gave them something?

They were hired by a company in the US, the company thanks them by paying them and helping them with immigration. This person was working like most of us, I don't see why they don't deserve to be treated like a human being.

Calling this indentured servitude isn't a stretch. You uproot your life to come to the US, and now your new life is being held hostage through arcane immigration procedures. Of course they have the right to be pissed off!

There's also the irony that most people "earned" the right to work in the US through the difficult task of being born in the country.

acchow• 10 years ago

That sounds like a toxic company culture and I'm sorry you experienced that.

But H1B's can be transferred to a new job. Why didn't you apply to a different company. Working harder than everyone else for a year should put you way ahead, no?

throwaway2017ab5• 10 years ago

H1Bs can be transferred to a new job

Its not easy as it sounds. Even if I goto a new company, its the same broken immigration system I have to face, and the job change is not that easy, more complications and risks when your green card process is in progress(even the entire process will be reset in some cases). There are many aspects & risks an H1B employee should consider before changing the job. The GC wait times for Indian born workers are around 7 years for EB2 category. Imagine, the worker being thrown out of his queue position just because he changed his job ! Draconian rules H1B visa has. H1B visa is like a bunch of non-compete clauses written all over it. The worker is exploited in his salary,job mobility, promotions, raises and cannot question the employer on any grounds, because if you are fired, you are illegal from the very next day and have to leave the country !

Working harder than everyone else for a year should put you way ahead

Well, I don't know how to explain that, you should work there to experience it or take a look at glassdoor reviews for amex.

flukus3• 10 years ago

I worked hard than the Americans for 3 years !. They pretty well knew I was an indentured servant and paid me 79K/annum. All salary raises and promotions were going to a handful of lazy Americans who rolls into the office whenever they wish.

I've never seen hard work produce good results in software. In fact, I've seen it create more issues than it solves. Hard work produces many LOC, but that creates a maintenance burden.

throwaway2017ab5• 10 years ago

why do people take things out of contexts and bisect and trisect them word by word ? When I said "I worked hard.." did you think I was burning my midnight oil ?. Trying to make software work by trial & error ?

So to clear it out, when I said "worked hard"..it means sincerely & smart, rather than lazing around, because now I see two comments glorifying smart work rather than hard work. You even went on to predict that hardwork creates more LOC. wow just wow. You are one of those "smart" workers aren't you. I admire you.

kc10• 10 years ago

I don't think this bill would solve or fix anything. If anything it makes really hard for companies far from cities to find workforce. 100K base salary is very less in bay area and in most cities, so it's not hard for these companies to hire H1B workers.

Think about companies that are far from any cities, they may not find lot of developers and they can't even hire H1B workers unless they pay 100K, why may be a lot more than average labor wages. So, it would be more expensive for businesses.

The same would be the case for proposed bill to introduce bidding system. It just gets expensive for the businesses far from cities.

Removing the country quotas for the green cards is the fix needed. People are tied to the employer now waiting years working low wages. Remove the country quotas or at least give EAD - that encourages people to move if an employer pays low salary.

maxpert• 10 years ago

I can see Indian companies who where cheating with getting cheap workforce here getting in trouble.

yalogin• 10 years ago

H1B is to hire from other countries because there is shortage of skilled people in the US. If that is the case, why not make the minimum salary 2 times (or some moderately unreasonable) amount the normal prevailing wage. The companies already abuse the previaling wage. So making the minimum 2-3 times is still OK.

c517402• 10 years ago

IIRC this report[1] says the schools in Dodge City, KS are having funding problems because 86% of the students come to school not speaking English and have to be taught English. This is because the meat-packing industry imports most of its labor. Please explain to me why foreigner workers are needed to trim meat off of beef carcasses.

Maybe everything isn't about coding.

[1] https://news.vice.com/story/kansas-school-funding-crisis

jecjec• 10 years ago

The H1B program is literally a giveaway to the 1%, owners of capital. I am glad Trump wants to reduce immigration!

known• 10 years ago

No labor shortages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa#Criticisms_of_the_pr...

sytelus• 10 years ago

Two biggest improvements that can be made in H1B program:

- Fill slots by sorting candidates with highest salaries instead of lottery

- Allow H1B holders to change employers as long as they are paid same or higher salaries

This will create amazing market competition and pay rise for everyone while making sure H1B holders don't get exploited by so called "body shoppers" taking away majority of their pay.

hocuspocus2• 10 years ago

H-1B holders are already allowed to change employers. The issue lies within the Green Card application process that is extremely long for some nationalities.

An auction system sounds great but it would very heavily favor a handful of companies in the tech industry.

iamspoilt• 10 years ago

This complements the post: http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-hiltzik-uc-vis...

throwaway012017• 10 years ago

As an employee on an H1B auth in the US, I cannot express my support for this bill enough. I'd support making the minimum required H1B wage $150K base, adjusted for living expenses.

God, I hate the stigma attached to mentioning what work auth I'm here on. Sadly I have to let my work show that all H1s are not created equal.

The image of the H1B program has been tarnished because it has been used to import people either for not-so-difficult jobs or lower costs, and, in some cases, misrepresentation of abilities.

This bill, if passed, will go a long way in rehabilitating the image of and correcting course for the H1B program. And THAT would be a weight lifted off the minds of truly deserving H1 beneficiaries who are ready to stand up to scrutiny and prove themselves worthy of a program meant for premium talent.

I agree with Congressman Issa on very little. This is something I wholeheartedly support and this Congress better be ready to have some serious justification if they don't pass this bill.

mattfrommars• 10 years ago

I'm looking for serious recommendation on what to do right now in my life.

I'm currently 25 year old with roughly two year of industrial experience and looking for a career change. One thing I absolutely want to work out is by applying for Master's program from a US university and finding work after graduation which will require H1B visa.

Is this a wise option? I will be moving from a third world country and be mostly on self finance Masters. I know it will be expensive but I'm seeing it as an investment which will pay off.

The intended field is in the tech side although I have a degree in Mechanical Engineering. Did this new bill make it far more difficult to get work visa or will the lottery system work?

I have a lot to lose if I don't get a work VISA really which would force me to return to home country. Note: I'm not from India

H-1B Visas: U.S. Lawmaker Re-Introduces Bill to Tighten Rules

Related Stories