Ask HN: I'm way too shy, please help

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1209303

by ptn • 16 years ago

72 91 16 years ago

news.ycombinator.com

I'm genuinely shy.

I stopped playing the guitar because I was too shy to play in public. I couldn't even play for ONE other person. I wrote some songs and publicized them...in forums, to strangers, not to people I knew.

I quit blogging because I just wouldn't tell people that I had a blog. I think I'm kind of scared to expose my work or something.

Needless to say, if I had an app or even started a business, it'd be hell for me to advertise it. I really can't picture me trying to convince someone to use my product; if a cousin asked me what it does, I'd start to stutter.

This applies to live interactions, not stuff like email, forums or HN. I'd have no problem in showing you guys my work and asking for comments and reviews.

What can I do? I think starting a blog again and telling people about it would be a good way to start, because it'd expose my work without me feeling intimidated by the presence of someone else. Would you agree?

sscheper• 16 years ago

Don't want this to come off rude, but here's my tip: Get outside.

samh2• 16 years ago

sscheper, you summed up my long post :)

ptn13• 16 years ago

I do go outside. Parties, bars, the casual get-together. No problem meeting new people. Wanna go grab a beer? :-)

metamemetics• 16 years ago

So it's just showing your work? Well it sounds like you have it answered, just start showing people your blog.

angusgr2• 16 years ago

Is it possible that the actual problem is fear of failure, and/or fear of mediocrity, rather than shyness per se?

When you meet new people, do you show them a different you, one who doesn't write songs or think about writing apps or starting businesses? One who is safe from criticism, because he/she doesn't do anything that would be worth criticising?

The two things are not necessarily related, but I've come to see both of them in myself. For a long time I've had two very different sets of thoughts and activities, internal ones that I didn't tell people about and external ones that I did. I convinced myself that noone IRL was interested in the first set of stuff (projects, niche interests, thought experiments) so I just kept it all to myself, sharing it online or (mostly) not at all. It's only recently that I'm starting to let more of that out, overcoming the fear of either boring people, sounding silly, or being ridiculed.

Things that have helped me have been:

- Getting involved with a group of people (IRL) who are interested in the same things. In my case it's been helping found a Hackerspace, but in your case music could be an equally good outlet and support group. This has helped me get used to talking about those things, and it's helped me feel more legitimate about these things being of interest and worth to other people, and not lame/useless/boring.

- Social media. It's convenient to be able to occasionally give notice of your thoughts and activities to a fairly wide group of people you know in person, without any obligation for them to respond if they don't want to or are not interested. I've been surprised at how many people have shown interest (both online and offline in social situations), though.

I still have a fair way to go. For example, I created a blog to help encourage me to push projects through to completion (or failure) instead of abandoning them early on. However, I haven't written up any of the things that I'm working on yet, instead I can always rationalise an excuse about "no time to write about it" or "not quite good enough for public consumption yet".

samh2• 16 years ago

No I wouldn't.

Question one, are you more attached to your self image as someone who has a real problem with shyness or are you more attached to the idea that you need to solve this problem for real ?

Are you serious about overcoming it ?

If you are, what you need to do is to take steps, possibly very small steps, every day, to push yourself past your comfort zone and be around other people and overcome your shyness.

There is no knowledge that will help you, you cannot read, think, research or write your way out of it, you can only practice and train your way out of it.

- Every day this week I will smile at a stranger. Then smile at two a day, then ten. - Every day I will say 'hello' to people as I pass them and smile. - When I deal with a cashier or serving person I will say "Thanks, you having a good day ?" I will practice small talk.

Action not thought will help you.

ptn13• 16 years ago

Wow, the smiling to strangers thing sounds like It'll help, thanks for that.

Here's another one I came up with: I live in a 12-store building where 44 families live. I will say hi and bye to everyone that shares the elevator with me instead of looking at my shoes and pretend they are not there. And I will smile while doing so.

soyelmango• 16 years ago

Saying Hi and Bye is a great idea to get you started, because it will do two things for you:

1) They might respond well to you, which can boost your confidence.

2) They look at you like you're a weirdo - this might seem bad, but it's really a good thing because you will teach yourself that sometimes, there's nothing wrong with you, and it's the other person that has an attitude problem!

Good luck, and please report back to let us all know how you get on :)

JimmyL• 16 years ago

+1 to the small talk/smiling thing - I did it for a few months when I was in school and definitely noticed a difference in my comfort level when dealing with people.

jacquesm2• 16 years ago

hey ptn,

What are you afraid of that makes you so shy ?

People rejecting you or ridiculing you ?

Is there something in your past that made you decide to 'play it safe' ?

The instrument thing I can completely relate to, I used to play the saxophone (I managed to blow a small hole in one lung so not any more), and I really didn't dare to play it in front of others, I felt completely naked doing that.

And then one day a guy I knew in Amsterdam changed that, he played as well and said, come, the weather is good, let's go outside and play. He was way better than I was and there was no way I was going to be caught dead playing out in the street (Amsterdam, so you're pretty much assured an audience).

But he kept on needling me until I gave in, one song only. So we went out and played that one song. One song became 10 and before long I really enjoyed it, even if I never played outside again I did lose my shyness about that.

With people in conversation it is a different thing, writing is a lot easier than speaking because when you write you can re-read your words before you click that 'submit' or 'reply' button and that gives you some time to get your thoughts in proper order.

People that are good at 'thinking on their feet' usually have less of a problem with interacting with others than those that need to think for a bit.

I really suggest you read darkxanthos' blog posts about all this, he has a way with words that I can't hope to match and his experiences are chronicled in a way that you actually get something from it that you can use.

There is this song called 'sunscreen', one line in it stands out for me: Do something that scares you every day.

best of luck!

Jacques

ehsanul• 16 years ago

I second looking at darkxanthos' blog posts about his experiences with "social skydiving": http://socialskydivingwithjustin.posterous.com/social-skydiv...

wilzy• 16 years ago

Thanks for posting that - i enjoyed the read.

ptn13• 16 years ago

People don't ridicule me now, but they used to, up until I was 16 or so. That's probably it.

jacquesm2• 16 years ago

Ok. So, here is my take on that:

Kids are cruel, but they grow up to become adults and those adults can be just as cruel, only they're more clever about it. It never goes away, unfortunately. Pettiness seems to be somehow part and parcel of groups of people.

You have to have a fairly tough skin to get around, and one of the things that being shy is a real problem with is that it opens you up to people that 'use' you simply by being normal to you, they might gain an edge that way.

I've been on the receiving side of that twice, always looking for that pat on the head or if someone is simply nice to me I'll nearly kill myself to please them. It's a weak point in my character.

The cruelty you can learn to deal with, the other part I'm not so sure. Every time something like that happens it dents my self confidence for years.

Still, like that famous ancient story, this too shall pass, and in the end whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger, sometimes much stronger.

I'm going to make a really weird suggestion: forget about a startup or something like that for now, go and do some volunteer work for a while.

It's two birds with one stone, it will have a real and measurably positive impact on peoples lives which will help you to build confidence and it will cure your shyness like nothing else can because it reverses the usual role patterns that you fall in to.

A friend of mine from Canada did that in order to find a way to deal with the aftermath of a car accident she was in, it worked very well for her, I figure it should help you deal with your shyness for much the same reasons.

There are always people below you on the ladder, simply being confronted with a lot of real world hardship will help to give you the tools with which to deal with your own, and will put you in a position of having to deal with people on a daily basis.

ErrantX• 16 years ago

The thing you should realise is that everyone suffers that. Your not unique in being insecure a d ridiculed as a teenager :-)

(figuring that out helped me a lot)

Confusion• 16 years ago

  What are you afraid of [..]

This is the question that you need to keep asking yourself. What are you affraid of? Once you've described it: is that fear reasonable? If it isn't, where does it come from? When you feel the fear, go through this process and explain to yourself that it doesn't make sense and that it has roots in irrational expectations. Be very specific, describe distinct things you are affraid of and the ways in which you fear they could hurt you. I do this every time I find myself being reluctant to do something. Basically every time I feel I have to pick up the phone to get something done. Along the way, you discover interesting things about yourself and about others.

pbhjpbhj• 16 years ago

I suffer some shyness.

Where it gets in the way most is telephone calls. Mostly I'm fine on the phone but sometimes I'll procrastinate so much, because I'm anxious about making a phone call, that it will impact my work or social life quite negatively. Unfortunately that stress works against the situation.

My point however is that there is nothing rational in this it is like an occasional phobia. The fear doesn't come from anywhere, it just appears.

It's possible that this anxiety is due to being chastised heavily for not taking phone messages well as a child.

iworkforthem• 16 years ago

@ptn ... quote 'oprah an't that beautiful either' and she got her own show. this an't going to work if you r not going to get out of your comfort zone.

upside, posting a Ask HN is a good stand. Try make a video next.

ax0n• 16 years ago

Get out and find people a bit like yourself. My advice: Find a hackerspace where you can collaborate with people in person. You can start by helping them, or giving them input without exposing your work all at once. You'll be around people who understand your type, and some of them will likely be shy as well. Many of the meetings at these places are not overwhelmingly crowded, but there are enough people there that you can lurk if you want to. As you get more comfortable with the people, you'll find it easier to share. Eventually, you might even give a presentation with another member, to the group. Or maybe you'll give a presentation yourself. You'll be able to practice your interpersonal skills on people who won't judge you very harshly.

ptn13• 16 years ago

You just wrote a description of my job. I only got there 6 weeks ago, so I haven't had the chance to do all that yet, but I will take the first chance I get.

noodle• 16 years ago

with respect to a blog, create a fresh anonymous online identity, and go from there. no need to show it to people you know. let it continue to be closed off so that you can comfortably show off your work. include it on resumes only if it is applicable, where you can feel more comfort in the fact that you're putting a whole lot of yourself out on the line and that adding the blog is just a drop in the bucket.

with respect to app/business, find a partner who is willing to be the face of the company, and operate behind them. no one really has to know that you're supplying the code.

iamelgringo• 16 years ago

Great suggestions here. I'd also suggest improv classes or acting classes. Most large cities have improv classes of some form, and your local community college is bound to have some acting classes. They are a great way to get in front of people in a controlled setting, and try to do weird things. After pretending to be an elephant in front of an acting class every week for 3 months, it's amazing how much easier it is to talk with a stranger about your product.

ptn13• 16 years ago

I was actually considering the same thing. This does seem like a big step, so it's like step 2 or 3 of the plan.

anonjon3• 16 years ago

Just keep in mind that you are going to die eventually, and that life is short, so it will be relatively soon.

There's so few ways that embarrassment will kill you but there's many ways that being really really alone like that will kill you.

Worst thing happens is you get laughed at, best thing happens is something really good. So focus on the really good. laughed at isn't anything.

ptn13• 16 years ago

That one was pretty drastic, but very true. Thanks for the advice.

whalesalad• 16 years ago

Sounds like you just need to man up and grow a pair. Honestly. If you think what he said was "harsh", then you're in for an interesting world. At some point in my life... I think it was the start of my senior high school year, I just became comfortable and cool with myself. I started not caring about what others thought, and just did what made me happy. I made new friends, ditched old ones, and started my career. Confidence in yourself is the best thing you can have. As soon as I graduated high school I moved to Hawaii to work for a new startup, and haven't looked back. Live life from the perspective of "will I regret not doing this?" rather than "will I regret doing this?".

Also, at the chance of coming off as cheesy... think about the legacy that you want to leave for yourself. What are people going to say at your funeral? What will your tombstone read? What can you surround yourself with so that every day that you wake up in the morning, you're excited to get at it and live it? I think that's where true happiness comes from, and that's what truly matters in life :) </end-hallmark-card>

anonjon3• 16 years ago

I struggle with this problem too, so your predicament touches on something with me.

It is drastic because in this situation, you have to be drastic. Shyness a is kind of hesitation. You are about to do something, but you catch yourself and say 'well what if'. Then you backslide from your motivated position to 'maybe i shouldn't', and so, with one hesitation, you've gone from 'doer' to 'didnter'.

So you just have to smother that initial hesitating voice and think drastically about things. If I don't do this, it is one more wasted opportunity in my ever-shortening life.

Every time I've taken a risk where i smothered the initial hesitation it has paid big dividends (not in money).

sjf• 16 years ago

When asked what their greatest fear is more people will say public speaking than death.

glhaynes• 16 years ago

Which means that if you're at a funeral, you're better off being the guy in the casket than the one giving the eulogy. /paraphrasing Jerry Seinfeld

kingkawn• 16 years ago

I used to be awkward, then I realized that by talking to people when I feel that way I can transfer my awkwardness to them, and split between the two of us its not so bad. The shyness comes from trying to handle it all on your own.

ahi• 16 years ago

Practice practice practice. Like anything else you get better by trying (and occasionally failing). You have to put yourself out there to overcome shyness, leaving your comfort zone. There is no switch to flick that makes it go away. I'm not much for formal education, but one thing it has given me is required presentations. With a few very painful public speaking experiences under my belt I am far less scared of it because I know I am getting better. At some point you just have to say "fuck it" and do it. No pain no gain.

Maybe this is a reach, but I'll use the Woz as an example. When he was making the Apple I doubt very much he was capable of managing a coherent conversation. He was the quintessential socially inept nerd. 30 years later he's still no Jobs, but he can give a decent interview. I suppose it helps having "fuck you" money, but really he's just had a couple decades of practice.

patio11• 16 years ago

I used to be shy and have a bit of a speech impediment. To get over it, I joined the forensics club (competitive public speaking). It is amazing how much that has helped me over the years. ("Presenting my new idea to the CEO? Pfft, just another speech. Need a joke for the intro... always start with a joke for the intro...")

If you're still in school, I recommend that or debate. If you're not, I hear Toastmasters is pretty decent.

weaksauce• 16 years ago

Have you tried a job in retail? I did computer sales for a while and I know it sucks but it did help me by forcing human interaction in mass numbers. The company was bad, but it was good on a few fronts: coworkers were generally interesting to talk to, I got a part time job on the side from a customer that gave me a lot of experience, I started a company with a few coworkers doing computer networking which afforded me some interesting experiences. Overall it was a net win.

This will get you practice in human interaction which is invaluable.

puppetsock• 16 years ago

Find a good therapist (psychologist) to talk to about this. Working through shyness will be a long process, and having a smart caring person to coach you through it will be a big help. Therapists are people who are genuinely interested in helping people in this way, and they have been developing and honing the relevant set of skills. I'd say it's important to find someone who works well for you and your personality, so maybe it would help to talk to a few to see who you have the best rapport/connection with.

briancarper• 16 years ago

I second this. If your shyness is bad enough that it seriously, negatively affects your life, consider talking to a psychologist. Speaking from personal experience, it can help. There's no shame in it. A psychologist offers a non-judgmental, safe atmosphere to talk to someone well-versed in the kinds of problems you're facing. Social anxiety is a much more common problem than most people would guess, and there are ways of thinking and habits you can form that can help you overcome it.

Some people can overcome these things without help, of course, and more power to them. Just another option to consider.

nicholasbishop• 16 years ago

This is much better advice than much of what's been posted here. The idea that you can simply wish away shyness is a little silly; you'll be much better off talking to someone who has training and experience in dealing with social anxiety. Trust the experts on this one, and you've got a very good chance at achieving your goals for being less shy.

cheald• 16 years ago

Find your local Toastmasters chapter. The pitch is to learn how to become a better public speaker and leader; everyone I've ever known that's been a part of it has raved about how it rounded off their shy edges and made them massively more confident. They'll make you uncomfortable as hell, but just remember that everyone else is there for the same reason to some degree.

rokhayakebe• 16 years ago

ptn, you may be afraid of rejection.

Maybe you could start by telling yourself that whenever you are too worried about someone's opinion, you are in fact saying "S/He is more important than me".

I am a very shy person. I fear others' opinion. So I turned my fear into a game. For example If I go out, I only talk to girls that intimidate me. During meetings I talk the least, but I take notes, write my talking points before speaking.

In other cases I literally imagine myself standing on the side watching me talk to people. I think this is not me, I am over there, watching my clone do this.

The most extreme I went was having a goal to say hello and smile at anyone I saw in a day (at the store, bank, work, street, etc...). Then I went further and chatted with at least 1 stranger everyday.

Take it as a game. It will be fun and soon you will start not to care.

ptn13• 16 years ago

Fear of rejection is definitely a component here. Fear of failure is another one.

peterwwillis• 16 years ago

well, they say the best way to conquer your fears is to face them. my suggestion: get embarrassed. fail.

it's a funny thing, fear. fears always make things seem worse than they are. i think you should do something that would normally embarrass you, and when you are done review what happened as a result. then do it again. each time you get in that situation you come to grips with the totality of your fear, and each time you walk away from it you become that much better at dealing with it.

i think the thing to keep in mind is that yes, you will fail. yes you will get embarrassed. but after going through it you will learn how to deal with it. i'll bet you after the 50th time playing guitar in public or singing all your fears would be gone. maybe you can extend that to other parts of your life too?

i also agree with looking at people in the eyes, smiling and saying hello whenever you pass. it shows confidence and it trains you to cope with people's rejection should they not smile back.

armandososa• 16 years ago

Perform.

I used to be very shy, so much that I wasn't even able to talk to girls (yes, like the guy in TBBT) and I was always afraid of doing something seemingly embarrassing even if it was not. I cannot even make anything ressembling a dance because I was convinced that people will laugh at me.

One day I realized that this was ridiculous so I've started fighting my shyness one baby step at a time. First, I've started wearing sunglasses which I've used consider pretty lame. I was prepared to be mocked out by people but I noticed that nobody actually care!

Then I got my first girlfriend which dumped me after one month. I was so angry that I went to this party acting like a douche and I got 3 numbers from pretty girls.

So I got the keyword is 'acting'. I didn't like acting as a douche though, so I keep being pretty shy.

Well, like seven years ago I've started playing in a christian ska band. What I did then was this: I will disguise myself as a rudeboy with sunglasses and a hat and a checkboard tie so nobody could recognize me and then I will 'act' as a ska rockstar. That worked pretty well, one year later I was dancing like crazy at the stage and three years later I even got some personal fans :D

Man, being a rockstar even a completely-obscure one is awesome.

So my advice are this two things: 1) Do one little ridicule thing at a time and 2) perform.

So when you want to play the guitar don't do it as yourself. Grab some 70's rockstar wardrobe and act like one. For some strange reason rockstars don't get laughed at. So act as one.

I've translated succesfully this approach to other areas of my life. Two years ago I got invited to give a talk in the first big web conference in Mexico. I was completely nervous but I knew that this was a turning point for my career so I did it.

I watched a lot of talk videos on the web and when I finally got into the stage I stop being myself and acted like a mix between Jason Fried, Gary V and Troy Mclure (the guy from the simpsons). It's funny but acting like an arrogant star boost your confidence.

I'm not saying that it works for everybody, just that it worked for me. I'm still not Gary V but at least I'm not Raj Koothrappali.

ptn13• 16 years ago

I like the baby steps thing. That's what I'm gonna start with, the acting classes and volunteer work seem like a bit too big a first step.

The advice about smiling and saying hi, and maybe the toastmasters club...that sounds good.

ElliotH• 16 years ago

Totally agree - you'll find that people who know you will expect you to act a certain way. And if they've always known you to be the shy person who doesn't speak out then thats how you'll behave (I mean they're friends with 'old' you not 'new' you right?) What you've got to realise though is that people actually don't mind when people act a bit unusually - especially if its 'baby steps' like you suggest.

And the part about playing the rockstar role approaches the problem from a different angle - go and see some people who don't know you as 'old shy person' and instead see you based on their first impression.

Debugreality2• 16 years ago

There is some good comments here about practicing, the trick is to find what works for you.

Make a list of small things you think you can try. Try them. If one doesn't work for you that's ok, write down what you learn from it not working. Maybe you can try it a bit differently next time, or try something else.

Just keep at it, it usually takes a few missteps to learn new things so don't worry about it. That's part of learning.

Good luck!

Debugreality2• 16 years ago

Oh another good trick regarding shyness is to focus on your motive. Why be fearful if you are acting with the other persons interests at heart. Try doing things for others, like smile to make them happier.

A lot of people are in the same boat as you, why should you all be miserable :)

ptn13• 16 years ago

A very big "thank you" to everyone that posted a reply. There are true gold mines here, and every bit helps.

sutro• 16 years ago

Fill a bathtub up with Axe body spray, anabolic steroids, and Old Crow whiskey and soak in it for a couple of hours. Problem solved.

psyklic• 16 years ago

Here is a really great blog by someone who made it into a game, with challenges for himself and simple stages. Maybe you can find some inspiration through his posts:

http://socialskydivingwithjustin.posterous.com/

Also, a trick that I use to practice new ideas is to go into places where I don't know a single person. Then, I can try all kinds of crazy things, knowing that I'll never see any of the people again :)

ptn13• 16 years ago

> Also, a trick that I use to practice new ideas is to go into places where I don't know a single person. Then, I can try all kinds of crazy things, knowing that I'll never see any of the people again :)

That's why I want to move to the valley to do my startup. I couldn't do it here.

sev• 16 years ago

I'll tell you a little about myself, hopefully my history regarding shyness can help you.

I used to be shy, at school, around friends, even at home (outside of my parents and siblings). Until I was chosen to be one of the lead characters at a school play, which I was pretty much forced to be a part of. I had a stomach ache to the point that I couldn't stand up straight, I was so scared. Somehow though, I was able to recite the lines properly. Thereafter I was complimented so much by so many different people, even people I didn't know (such as other actor's parents), that I was able to gain self confidence and thought that I was truly a great actor who can maybe become one in the future. This play was a turning point in my life, because to this day, I'm not shy, and I know I'm not a very good actor. The worst that could have happened at this play was that I wouldn't be complimented (no way anyone would insult my skills, as it's not expected of a student to be good, let alone amazing). In hindsight, it was worth the shot for a possible less shy future.

As a teenager I had quite a bit of acne, and that caused low self-confidence in me for a while. How I got over it was simple, yet accidental (or subconscious, as there is no way I would have thought of doing this on purpose at that time): overt confidence display. Basically, act extremely self confident, and do things that even the bullies in class wouldn't dare to do. This causes people to look at you in a more respectful way (at least in school, but with some modifications can be applied elsewhere), one in which they stop seeing your face, but what you've done, your history, your "self-confidence", etc. It's kind of like being a fat ugly rock star or famous actor/celebrity/CEO. Overt self-confidence display can lead to really bad behavior though, which I was able to control, but try to keep that in mind.

Currently, I've removed the "overt" part from "overt confidence display." However, it was necessary at first, to make as strong of a first impression as possible.

In theater, they teach actors to consider the audience members as donkeys or some other animal sitting down and watching them, to create a less traumatizing experience. Try to do something similar when you play the guitar, or talk to someone. Who are they to cause you to fumble or stutter or cause anxiety? No matter who they really are, they're no one to cause any of those symptoms.

Sorry about the long essay.

cmos• 16 years ago

Being forced into doing drama also changed my entire life. I cannot recommend it enough. I was relatively talentless and put in the back of the chorus (sang happy birthday during tryouts for a summer musical), but that only gave me more time to socialize with drama people, who are completely different from my close, safe group of friends at the time.

The drama crowd taught me how to relax, how to enjoy life, and how to speak my mind amongst chaos.

It was my mother who forced me to try out (literally threatened me). I was so angry at her for making me do it and so very thankful every day after for having such a life changing experience.

fretlessjazz• 16 years ago

If you're young, get a job at a help desk or tech customer support. It will work wonders, trust me.

bricestacey2• 16 years ago

This helped me out a lot. You're forced to interact with people. More importantly, you don't have to be interesting to get people's attention - they are actively seeking your attention in the first place. It's an easy place to practice and become comfortable around people.

cracki• 16 years ago

actually, it'll only make you a cynic and a misanthropist.

jamesbritt• 16 years ago

That's a choice you make.

bricestacey2• 16 years ago

It helps to do something... a little more mundane. No one goes around casually talking about their complicated lives (of which both guitars and blogs fall).

For example, I was cleaning up my backyard today (something mundane) and saw that some flowers had sprouted. I took a picture and posted it on Facebook exclaiming that Spring was here (again, something mundane) and when I go into work tomorrow I'm going to boast about the newfound glory of Spring to every single person I see.

You might take up a simple hobby like running (mundane), but it's something you can easily talk about. "I went for a run today. It was so nice out." Simple. If they're interested, you can fill in some more details about how you now have shin splints or that you stepped in a puddle. If they're not interested, no big deal. You had some top-notch small talk.

durbin• 16 years ago

I would have considered myself shy in the past and one of the rationalizations that helped me get over being shy is that everyone projects how they would react and feel on other people.

Do you judge others work or blogs harshly? Are you judgmental of others opening themselves up and putting their work and thoughts out in public? I'd say the first step is making sure that you are not judgmental of others putting themselves out there and in turn you'll realize the best people (and the only ones you should care about imho) are the ones that aren't judgmental and embrace people sharing what they are thinking and realize its tough to have brilliant ideas all the time.

ankeshk• 16 years ago

Countdown to failure. Make it into a game.

Rookie salesmen - the best instruction they receive is not: go and get 10 sales. The best instruction they receive is: go and get 30 Nos.

The goal of 30 Nos means they won't give up before that even if they face a lot of shit.

A lot of pickup artists do this too. They instruct people to go and approach as many girls as they can with a made up opening line before they are rebuked a 100 times.

Counting down to failure works better in making sure you don't give up before you can raise your confidence level.

Action Summary:

Figure out what you consider your failure point.

Come up with a number. You need to reach your failure point that many times.

Eg: It could be 10 people asking you to stop playing your guitar within 2 minutes of you starting to play.

jarmop• 16 years ago

I used to be very shy. Not any more. I still don't like crowds, and I prefer to be with one or two people - but I can make a speech for five or five hundred persons, who usually tell afterwards that it was the best part of their day - or the whole week. What helped:

I went to a course in our university, "confidence as presenter" (bad translation of the name, sorry). The teacher was excellent, and I guess that is what really is what counts.

So, my advice would be: go to some course about communications or such, but make sure that the teacher is excellent.

jacoblyles• 16 years ago

I don't have a problem as severe as yours, but I was able to reduce my shyness by forcing myself to go through with situations that I was afraid of. It was sort of like jumping into a cold pool. Once you're in the water it is not as unpleasant as your fear told you it would be. And once you learn that, it gets easier to jump in the pool the next time.

It's also something you can't learn by thinking about, or by reading advice. You have to learn by doing.

But honestly, I'm not that shy of a person. I'm only shy in certain situations. So I'm not sure how much it will help you.

Tichy• 16 years ago

"I wrote some songs and publicized them...in forums, to strangers, not to people I knew."

This just made me think, perhaps you should simply hang out on ChatRoulette for a while :-) (Haven't tried it myself).

But seriously, I think just practice. I recently read one of the "The Game" books out of curiosity (about the pickup artists, I read "The Mystery Method"). Not sure if I like it, but one thing stood out: in their seminars, they make people go into night clubs and chat up at least 10 women per night (or was it even more, don't remember for sure). in other words, they simply practice a lot.

I know this is not (just) about talking to women, but I think in general anxiety really can be overcome with practice. Take smaller steps, though - playing your music in front of an audience is comparatively huge. One thing I did is for a while ask a question at almost every conference/public talk I went to. I felt a difference very quickly.

warp• 16 years ago

I used to by shy, then I fell in love.

In past, I would fear what others would think of me, which made me very shy. When I fell in love I only cared about what my love interest would think. Obviously I was even more shy around her, so that relationship didn't work out. But in the meantime I didn't care anymore what others would think, this got me into a positive feedback loop and fixed my shyness enough to no longer be a problem.

Not something you can easily trigger, but you need to find some way to get into that positive feedback loop.

j053003• 16 years ago

Don't take life too seriously--you're not going to make it out alive anyway.

Edit: or what Anonjon said

Mz• 16 years ago

I am wondering if you have a keen sense of smell. Since it is in person but not online, I would guess there is something physiological involved. Anecdotally, my son is very strongly impacted by the feelings and reactions of people around him. He also has a keen sense of smell. I suspect the two things are related since pheromones are also picked up by the nose (olfactory).

I was bedridden at one time and largely housebound for a long time. During that time, I spent a lot of time online. Getting out into the world again and around people was a headtrip. I have found that it is much easier to drop someone a polite note, send them an email, etc in order to talk about difficult subjects because it removes that physiological component. If they have a strong negative initial reaction, I am not exposed to it. They can take time to calm down and compose themselves before replying, etc. If handled properly, it can do a lot to defuse potentially highly charged situations.

Yes, start a blog again and do more stuff online. You might consider planning a web-based business or project.

maxklein• 16 years ago

Everything becomes easier the more you do it. If you're shy, there is an easy way to get over it: break it into component parts (talking to people, going new places etc). The break each part into steps that you can take. For example, talking to people an easy way to start is to talk to fruit sellers about their fruit, then asking for advice on clothes and so on. Now, everyday make it a mission to go and conquer one level of it til you are comfortable with that. Then move to the next level.

The way I am advocating is slow working, but it's easy to do and it changes the very fundamentals of who you are.

Also travel to other cities alone and just walk around and discover the city. Being in a new environment will open you up to being more accepting of things you don't know or understand.

stevoski• 16 years ago

Medication worked wonders for me.

I had anxiety problems that were crippling my life. Two years ago I was prescribed Paroxetin. The changes it has done me for are great. I sleep much better. I'm not so irritable. I don't worry so much about failure and what other people think. I am far more open about my life, even with strangers, as readers of my blog know.

A pleasant side-effect is that I can coolly walk into a crowded room or bar. I used to be close to panic in this situation. Last Saturday night I started a random conversation with two girls in a local bar and talked to them for a couple of hours. And if they had dissed me - I wouldn't have cared.

The past was not like this for me.

krmmalik• 16 years ago

I used to be painfully shy too, but i started to get much better when i realised that were many other people who had the same problem.

Some things i have learned that sometimes it can come down to self-esteem, so if you solve that problem you've got most of it covered. I dont know if you are male or female, but there is video series on youtube by David DeAngelo (its a little crude) caled "On being a man", its worth watching. Just as a "gaining insight" exercise. I wouldnt take the whole thing literally, but it helps.

Other than that, i agree with the other commenter that the more you do something the better you get it. Start with the slightly easier things first and then start pushing yourself further.

Also, get a pen and paper and for each thing that painfully frightens you list down a few reasons as to why it frightens you, i.e. worst case scenario, and then list why the worst case scenario itself frightens you and keep extrapolating that back as much as you can. that REALLY helps (hope it makes sense, email or skype me if you want to know more). (khuram@xs-pro.co.uk) skype: krmmalik

and lastly there's a book called "Feel the fear and do it anyway" by Susan Jeffers. Its worth reading.

(sorry for the information overload, just take one thing at a time)

davidw• 16 years ago

I enjoyed learning salsa dancing a lot, and it helped my confidence, and ability to just approach people (well, girls, specifically). Plus, it's actually fun. My wife and I still go occasionally, these days:-)

almost• 16 years ago

Not directly related to shyness but I think this video might possibly help:

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/alain_de_botton_a_kinder_g...

I think it's important to remember that most people are insecure in some way, it's just that different people show it differently. So maybe the loud extroverted guy is really scared to.

Good luck with stuff, work on it and you will improve. This is not something you're stuck with, it's just a hard work to sort it out.

tomhoward• 16 years ago

Be careful of advice involving putting yourself in stressful situations, eg public speaking classes, improv, talking to strangers, approaching women, etc.

Shyness is a generally a combination of the emotional (painful memories of embarrassing/humiliating situations) and the physiological (neurological stress & oversensitivity). These two aspects can influence each other, making the situation steadily worse as you pass through life, and can push you to breaking point if you can't work out how to escape the cycle.

If you have become hypersensitive to criticism or the feeling of embarrassment, that's a real physiological condition, and deliberately invoking this sensation through "fear conquering" exercises can make the situation worse - ie, add to the pile of painful memories and exert further physiological strain on your body.

There's a bunch of ways you can make your nervous system more robust, through nutrition (food+supplements), physical health & fitness, and crucially, "letting go" of painful memories (it seems wacky, but many people find "tapping" or EFT to be really effective).

Over time, this can enable you to be more relaxed and confident.

If you're going to do anything to challenge yourself, make sure you're taking small incremental steps. It's important to get yourself on a success trajectory, where each day or each week you're getting a little better than the last, and never suffering a major fall or setback. Minor setbacks are OK, as long as they're not too painful they'll become a way of figuring out when you're going right or wrong.

I'm aware some of this stuff may sound absurd, but it's based on my own experience, which includes learning that common "wisdom" about this stuff, including conventional advice from mental health "professionals", is ineffective at best and terribly damaging at worst.

The good news is you really can overcome the difficulty you find yourself in, and life can be far more enjoyable than you ever imagined possible.

If you want any more advice, email me: tom.howard/gmail.

nonrecursive• 16 years ago

Hi ptn, I would recommend two books for you: The Places that Scare You, by Pema Chodron, and How to Win Friends and Influence People, by Dale Carnegie. If you send me your details I can send the books your way (my email is in my profile). Alternatively, you could add those books to an amazon.com wish list and I could get them for you that way. I wish I could write more about why I'd recommend those books, but I have to get to work :)

Good luck, buddy.

jpatte• 16 years ago

The mind works with automatisms and reflexes. They condition the way you interpret any situation, and the emotion you feel because of this interpretation. The key is to become aware of these mechanisms: don't let them control you.

In your daily-life, inevitably you will interact with other people. At this moment, there might be a little voice in your head (litteraly) saying "Don't do this. It's dangerous. Remember that time..." + flash images of painful past situations. It's your instinct, acting to protect you. The problem is the association you made between people interaction and pain (probably because of a difficult childhood). You need to fix this.

Actually there might be several broken mechanisms acting in different situations.: don't try to fix them all at the same time. Focus on each one independently, then "force" it as much as possible to replace the bad behavior by the behavior you want. It will be hard at the beginning, then easier.

A psychologist might help you identify these broken mechanisms in your daily life. But the key is to gain awareness of them, acting in your head. Some of them could be:

- taboo: being shy or feeling uncomfortable is not a taboo. Talk about it. Everyone enjoy talking about what they are concerned about. This is your life, so talk about it. People will actually appreciate knowing you better, and you might be amazed to see how many people feel the same.

- judgment: people are not judging you all the time. Most of the time, they don't care about you. Don't think anything you do will be evaluated, judged, and blamed.

- perfection: nobody is perfect. Why would you? People learn from failures. If they don't fail, they don't evolve. Don't feel shameful to ask for help. It's very positive.

- right: you have the right to exist. You have to right to make suggestions. You have the right to decline others' suggestions.

It's a long road, but it's worth it. Hang on!

jasonneal• 16 years ago

I used to be pretty shy myself. I would say to some degree I still am, but when necessary I am able to overcome that.

I can say a few things that helped me a long the way. First off though, on the computer you feel "shielded" from reality. Even if you showed me your blog, and I told you it was horrible, I still have no clue who you are, so you feel a little more safe. So having the blog and showing it to people that do actually know you might help a bit, but I think this all starts in "public."

I took a speech class in college. I was absolutely terrified that I was going to have to take this class, because all throughout high school I had to do speeches for certain classes and it was always a headache. However, college was far more different. They allowed me to give speeches on topics that I was already interested in. Being interested in the topic made things a lot easier. I would say that speech class didn't help immediately, but in the long run it was a big help.

I also had a bunch of customer service style jobs early in life that required me to interact with the public...I think these early face-to-face jobs helped a lot.

Good luck to you!

jvictor118• 16 years ago

I heard somewhere that people's #1 fear is public speaking (#2 being death). So I certainly don't think your alone.

Simply put, I'd like to emphasize that the problem is entirely within you. This can all change without the action (or awareness) of _any_ other people. You simply have to ask yourself -- why is it that I allow other people's opinion of me to influence what I think about myself? Why is my self-image tied up in the opinion of others?

I used to struggle with this (in middle school) until I realized that other people's behavior is governed entirely by their own problems, their own insecurities and concerns -- so their reaction to you has _very_ little to do with you, and a whole LOT to do with them. So not only is it not healthy, it is ILLOGICAL to allow others' opinions to sway you at all!

Meditate on this when these feelings start to paralyze you. Remember that plenty of great work was ridiculed and derided when it was first accepted -- think about Galileo! No matter how bad the publicly responds to whatever you show it, it will likely not be as bad as it was for Galileo. :)

petervandijck• 16 years ago

It'll get better.

1. Yes, practice little things.

2. Yes, you'll die, so don't focus only on the shyness.

3. Don't worry, it'll get better with age (age brings practice and confidence), and although you'll likely always have some level of shyness, it will get to the level where your shyness is charming, and just an aspect of your personality. Nothing wrong with that.

rajat2• 16 years ago

Either you are too shy, and the usual prescription of go out there and overcome it isn't going to work. I was painfully shy when I was younger, and it took determined and sustained effort to overcome it. Even today, after years of this, it often takes a moment of deliberate effort for me to talk to a stranger. At parties, I am often one of the people holding up the wall.

It's clear, however, that that will not work for a small number of people, and if you are one of them, then you must consider counselling/therapy. For a really small number, drugs are called for. If you find that a determined effort to be outgoing is not possible/helpful, then I seriously encourage you to seek out the right type of counsellor.

rajat2• 16 years ago

CaptainZapp• 16 years ago

It was mentioned already and I'd like to re-emphasize :

Talk to a good psychologist or psychiatrist and consider medication for a limited time at least.

I was the same. No problems with friends, colleagues or on the internet, but walking into a bar or into a party would frighten the holy crap out of me.

Cognitive therapy in combination with Effexor (Efexor herearound) helped me a hell of a lot. It's basically an antidepressant, which is also indicated for Social Anxiety Disorder in a relatively low dosis and in the extended release version. There may be others, but this worked pretty good for me.

A major disclaimer :

Although I seem to recognize a lot of the symptoms that I had (sometimes have, but this is much rarer now) I am not a physician or even a psychologist. Anecdotal experience may be valid in my case, but each person is different and what works for one, may be a side effect ladden horror for others. Before you even consider altering your brain chemistry (which I don't think is inherently wrong and meds are pretty subtle nowadays) you must discuss this with a professional, period.

In any case: I _guarantee_ that you can do something about it. it may need work and a professional to get there, but you can do it.

Good luck on your journey

martin_valiente• 16 years ago

Try acting or locution classes. Actors do silly exercises to take away the scenic fear. If you have been a dog or a tree in front of several people, then being human seem a lot easier.

pasbesoin• 16 years ago

Exercise. Heavily.

The best time of my life was the fall after a summer of cycling every day. I gained several (real) new friends. I started participating in intra-mural sports, at which I was actually good. (Some quite negative "jock attitudes" had kept me away from organized sports in primary and secondary school.) I reconsidered my education and began to see past all the "don't do that" advice towards a course of pursuing what actually interested me.

There's a lot more to this, especially as researchers look at and measure various biological changes and effects, than just a one liner. But to summarize: When you feel better, you feel better about yourself, and, feeling better about yourself, you approach others on a more equal footing.

I was cycling 2 - 3 hours a day. It may not require this much activity, but I am talking about more than a 15 or 30 minute workout. (Well, maybe a heavy 30 minute routine would suffice. Others might have more to contribute in the way of details.)

P.S. I may be mistaken, but I seem to recall some good threads on this (both shyness and exercise, and the union of the two topics) back in the "early days" of HN. Unfortunately, I don't have references at hand, but a look through

http://searchyc.com/

http://www.gabrielweinberg.com/startupswiki/Ask_YC_Archive

might turn some up.

oscarduignan• 16 years ago

Haven't read the article, I just like the picture...

http://plpatterns.com/post/307982918/its-hard-to-change-a-li...

Tycho• 16 years ago

I divide activities into two categories: those I'm supposed to be good at, and those I'm not. For instance, I'm fairly articulate and knowledgeable about certain subjects, so I should be able to get up and explain/present them to other people. Whereas, I'm a poor guitar player, lack 'rock star looks' and have got a weak singing voice, so performing music is probably not my forte. I find I continually grow in confidence with the former activity, and just don't attempt the latter activity (or have need to attempt it).

Of course there will be some things I need to do but am still bad at. Still working on that one! (acquiring more skills would always help though. don't think of 'social skills,' think of things like 'sense of humour' that you can improve).

CraigBuchek• 16 years ago

I used to be a lot like that, and I worked on changing it. So that's my number 1 piece of advice -- work on changing what you want to change. Work on the big things as well as the little things.

I used to put my head down when passing people, to avoid eye contact. Silly as it sounds, I was able to help with that by humming the Argent song "Hold Your Head Up" in my head when passing people.

Another thing I did was to put myself in situations where I HAD to interact with other people. Sometimes this worked, and sometimes it didn't. I found that bars didn't work -- I'd mostly just stand there by myself. Then I'd go home and feel like a failure. (Note that I felt like a failure for NOT putting myself out there and talking to people. To me, that's more regrettable than anything stupid I might have done.)

Joining some clubs where I had an interest helped a lot. At first I just took it in. Then I started offering input during discussions. Eventually, I got to the point where I gave presentations in front of the group, and even larger groups. Now I also run the group (a local LUG). I wrote myself some tips on giving presentations, as well as for others, to share what I learned. My best tip to stop being nervous in this situation is: "Remember that the audience members are just like you, and are interested in what you have to say."

Leverage what you're good at to improve the things that you're not good at. For example, as I said, I was terrible at bars. But I'm good at writing -- and conversation once I know people. So I found that online dating worked really well for me. I got to meet people, but only after I got them interested in me from our written exchanges. At this point, I'd be more comfortable talking to them in person.

Another thing you can do is latch onto a friend that's more outgoing. Make sure it's someone who won't push you out of your comfort zone too far too fast. But have them take you places where you can meet people. They can introduce you and get the conversation started.

Eventually, you'll get to a tipping point where you realize that "failing" isn't so bad, and that "failures" are just learning experiences. Then you'll be able to say "what the heck" and not care so much about what other people think.

Good luck!

switch• 16 years ago

99% of people are worrying about what other people think of them. People try to hide it in different ways - saying too little, saying too much, hiding from the world, overexposing themselves.

just realize that most people are so busy caring about what other people think of them they don't really care much about how you come across.

why do you care what other people think? what's your answer to that question.

missizii• 16 years ago

You might find the book "The Highly Sensitive Person: How to Thrive When the World Overwhelms You" by Elaine Aron helpful. Shyness isn't the same as being highly sensitive, but sensitive people are often considered shy.

Ask HN: I'm way too shy, please help

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