Berlin is now in a position to usurp London as the startup capital of Europe

http://www.geektime.com/2016/06/27/berlin-is-now-in-a-position-to-usurp-london-as-the-startup-capital-of-europe/

by scarletknight • 10 years ago

167 146 10 years ago

geektime.com

robert_foss2• 10 years ago

Was London at any point the startup capital of Europe?

Maybe it was the banking capital of Europe, but that time is over now.

nailer2• 10 years ago

In terms of funding, yes. It's also the fintech capital of the world.

Regarding being the banking capital: it's been two business days. You might be jumping the gun just a little. ;-)

robert_foss2• 10 years ago

I am indeed jumping the gun, but the banking industry has been known to move geographically for far fewer reasons.

A striking example would be the move of the entire banking industry from Montreal to Toronto, due to the growing separatism in and around Montreal.

onion2k2• 10 years ago

Regarding being the banking Ng capital: it's been two business days. You might be jumping the gun just a little.

I strongly suspect the UK won't be able to continue any passporting[1] arrangements because it would greatly benefit Germany's financial sector if foreign banks had to establish a European presence to trade within the EU. That is an existential threat to London's finance industry. Obviously it depends on trade negotiations with the EU as the UK leaves, but really, what benefit is there to the EU to let it continue the way it is? Why would they want the UK to carry on as it is now?

[1] https://www.eba.europa.eu/regulation-and-policy/passporting-...

rayiner• 10 years ago

Regarding being the banking Ng capital: it's been two business days. You might be jumping the gun just a little. ;-)

Not only is it jumping the gun, it's an absurd proposition. London is the world's top financial center. It has been for the better part of two centuries (sometimes jockeying for the top spot with New York). Nowhere else in the EU comes close.

lhnz• 10 years ago

Marginal Revolution had an interesting discussion on the possibility of Finance leaving London [0].

Reading the discussion it seems like there's no real obvious choice for a European city which might end up owning Finance in the way London has. After all London earned its status as financial capital a long time before the EU was created and has a long history supporting this industry. The legal system and services that formed around it are unlikely to be able to be easily transplanted, so despite other cities wanting to offer themselves as substitutes it's not Banks could move without losing some economies of scale.

This is of course assuming that our government attempts to negotiate for us to stay in the 'single market' and that the finance industry itself lobbies for Europe to play ball and keep business as usual.

Of course, it is possible that we could see some decentralisation, which could weaken Europe's banking industry in relation to the US.

[0] http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2016/06/whi...

sandworm101• 10 years ago

> Was London at any point the startup capital of Europe?

Yes. On paper, London was home to countless new companies funded by billions of dollars. The fact that those companies were asset tools, ghosts incapable of producing anything beyond tax advantages, doesn't take away from their definition as "startups".

bertil• 10 years ago

Was London at any point the startup capital of Europe?

Yes, very much so. I am an experienced Data scientists, and I looked around Europe for the last four years, needing a new job every three to six months, and London consistently had the top 5 best offers, be it in quality of the project, money raised, size of the db, etc. The conferences have been consistently larger, better and more relevant here than in Paris, Stockholm, Helsinki. The Meet-ups everywhere were good, but you have usually 5 people who are familiar with your specific implementation at most, 10 more considering it; in London, you have three to ten times that many people.

I have not tried working in Berlin yet, but all signs seem positive, and life is much cheaper there.

branchless2• 10 years ago

Life is cheaper there because Germany hasn't (yet) invited the parasitic banking sector into the nest.

Stephen_C• 10 years ago

Is there a European startup capital at all?

As for London's time as banking capital of Europe being over - at this stage all anyone knows for sure is that a "small" majority of the UK voting public voted indidacated they would like the UK to leave the current EU - that's it.

And at this early stage absolutely none of the UK or EU governing bodies or institutions currently know how this leaving process is going to be implemented or end - if it even starts.

EnderMB• 10 years ago

From a UK perspective, we've largely thrown our eggs into one basket with London. It's the financial capital, but it's also the best place to work if you're involved in design, programming, recruitment, law, etc. With so much going on in London, it's only natural that you set up shop there if you want to play in the big leagues, or to move to London when you reach a certain size and want to work with the big players. I imagine funding also plays a huge part in the startup scene in London too. It's where the money is, after all.

Purely anecdotal, but London is regularly referred to as the FinTech capital of Europe, and it often seems to be because London doesn't have a lot of startup success stories to boast about. For me, the startup buzz in the UK tends to be smaller outfits away from London, either close to top universities (Oxbridge) or in larger cities with an existing digital culture (Bristol, Manchester).

Again, purely anecdotal, but I know a few people that have moved from London to Berlin, and they couldn't be happier.

erikb4• 10 years ago

Also curious about that. A few years ago (maybe 2011) another article also stated that Berlin now (=2011) wins against London as the new startup capital. As a Berliner one remembers that.

HalfwayToDice2• 10 years ago

I think this article is completely wrong.

The things that make London attractive to startups will stay the same. Not being in the EU won't change that.

Additionally, it talks about UK attitudes to immigration, but London is completely separate from the rest of the UK in terms of these sort of things.

Expect a lot of very silly things to be written about UK/EU over the coming months.

tacostakohashi• 10 years ago

The attitude may be different in London, but the immigration system is not, as you say, "completely separate".

div• 10 years ago

The point the article is trying to make wrt immigration is that when the UK leaves the EU, it will also leave the free movement of workers zone, making it harder to attract immigrants, regardless of how London feels about them.

HalfwayToDice2• 10 years ago

Immigration system for skilled workers is not going to change. If the UK actually does leave the EU, they'll replace EU rules of skilled immigration with something similar.

The UK is a knowledge economy, it will always be open to skilled immigrants. Yet people actually believe that the UK will close down all immigration. It's absurd.

tluyben2• 10 years ago

Offtopic-ish; What makes London attractive besides investors though? I work at a (fintech) startup with an office just outside London and I don't see much positive things for startups there at all compared to, say, Berlin besides money. I see partners and other startups we work with moving out of London for all the reasons I would say London is not all that great for startups. Again, outside companies who get millions of funding so they can pay to be in London.

p4wnc66• 10 years ago

This was shared earlier: < https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11983154 >

I'll repeat the comment I gave there:

I don't view Berlin as a viable replacement as a top start-up hub because wages in Berlin are simply ludicrously low.
With Google's investment in the Zurich office, and the much, much more internationally competitive wages you can earn in Switzerland, I think Zurich could be better positioned.
There's certainly no reason to believe that specifically an EU city would be the next to take off. And in most other ways, the Swiss job market is just much more competitive.
I'm also depressed by the article using a picture of an anti-human violently wide open co-working space as a stereotype of a thriving start-up culture. Nothing says you're being totally taken advantage of like a wide open floor plan.

misja111• 10 years ago

I don't understand your points about wages being too low in Berlin. If low wages are a problem for a start-up, what is keeping it from offering high wages, even in Berlin?

On the other hand, I could imagine that start-ups would rather keep costs low, especially in the beginning. Then it would be a problem to be situated in a city like Zurich.

p4wnc66• 10 years ago

Investors may choose to invest with a company in a certain city, like Nashville or Berlin or Singapore, because wages are low. So if wages become a problem for the company, the investors stop being interested. There won't be money available to raise wages (for that, the investors will just go back to markets like NYC, Boston, or SF that they trust more).

So from birth, companies based in these areas are predicated on the idea that wages must be low -- that's what makes them attractive to investors -- and as a result they really are not recruiting good people.

The whole thing basically amplifies the casino effects in start-ups. You invest in Berlin/Nashville/Singapore start-ups because it's an insanely cheap scratch-off ticket that costs you mostly nothing, has very low chance of striking it big, but offers you entertainment, or bragging rights, or something else, as an investor.

Companies in these areas will not be in a position to raise their wages to a truly competitive level for very long periods of time (most won't live that long anyway). So by agreeing to work for them, you are simply resigning yourself to a permanent reduction in real wage (i.e. after accounting for cost of living). Not to mention, for international workers anyway, adding visa risk, tax complications, equity complications, etc.

For a very talented developer who can earn far enough about market salaries even in NYC or SF so as to live a comfortable life in those places, it would only make sense to bear all these risks and join a firm in Berlin if you were being paid a premium -- i.e. that your wage in Berlin was even higher above cost of living than what your ~ $180k salary would be in Brooklyn -- and you should not at all consider it if someone starts conning you with arguments like, "but it's so much cheaper in Berlin ... and you can drink beer in the park and watch Bayern or Dortmund play here twice a year, go to Berghain on the weekends, etc. etc." (unless, of course, your utility function responds more to beer and soccer than to money).

philefstat2• 10 years ago

Wages being low is a good thing, no? CoL is significantly lower too which is great.

p4wnc66• 10 years ago

In what way are lower wages good for the employees you're trying to attract? While some aspects of cost of living are low, others are not low at all. I guess if you're looking for nothing more than a temporary lifestyle involving enough money to go to concerts and eat at restaurants, the wage is fine for a younger person in Berlin. But it's a fantasy to believe you can effectively grow a company that way. You really do need to hire experienced people, often with families and expectations for a higher quality of living conditions, etc., who aren't particularly interested in the youth culture offerings of Berlin.

For these people, earning ~ 50k euros / year in Berlin is a way, way, way, way, way worse deal than earning ~ 200k dollars in San Francisco, despite SF's insane costs. You just simply cannot do anything with 50k euros/year in Berlin unless you have no outside obligations and are happy spending the money of minor lifestyle perks.

I'm surprised that any of this is even controversial. The same is true for start-ups almost anywhere else in continental Europe too. To a very limited extent there are some companies in Amsterdam that actually pay a "real" wage (i.e. you can support a family, enjoy life, and save for retirement), and some across Switzerland, but not many.

Thinking in terms of "yay, cost of living is low so I don't need much of a salary" is the classic immature analysis of a recent grad who looks at it more like a program for teaching English is southeast Asia than like they are actually working a job, building a career, etc.

romanovcode• 10 years ago

Living is also not as pricey tho

p4wnc66• 10 years ago

It doesn't balance out at all. If you care about being a very successful start-up, then you are implicitly competing for international talent, whether you like it or not. The same people choosing to work in SV are the people you should be trying to convince to work in Berlin.

Saying they get ~ 50k euros/year but don't worry, the cost of living is low is a universal non-starter. That's just simply not competitive. The cost of living is not so low that a person can reduce their salary to around 1/3 of what they could make in New York or SF and expect to have the same quality of life.

You're basically handcuffing one arm behind your back by basing yourself in Berlin (or many other places) because now your pool of applicants is limited to only those people who have some ulterior reason to be interested in living in Berlin and are willing to make a Faustian bargain regarding huge reduction in their wage (even relative to cost of living).

hocuspocus2• 10 years ago

I'd love to see the tech landscape in Zürich grow but there are a few problems:

- Sponsoring non-EU immigrants has become extremely difficult in Swizterland.

- Google trounces the competition by a margin that is completely out of reach for European start-ups.

- Switzerland itself is a very small market. The cash-flow of your typical SaaS start-up is going to be mostly in € or $ with all the associated burdens and risks.

Also it's funny you mention Amsterdam since from what I've seen, wages are even lower than in Berlin, which is insane given the higher CoL.

peterbraden2• 10 years ago

The Swiss tax system also cripples startups in Zürich

speleding• 10 years ago

Wages in Amsterdam are lower than London, but the Netherlands have a great deal for ex-pats: the so called "30% rule", which means that you only pay tax on the remaining 70% for the first 8 years there. So your take home pay can be really good (and it has other benefits like a good healthcare system, free education for the kids, etc).

Also, if you want to start a start-up low wages are actually a plus...

(Source: I started a startup there and have several employees on the 30% rule)

urlwolf• 10 years ago

I have been in Berlin for 8 years and would not change it for London at all. In data science at least there's far more action here. More interesting technologies (Flink), people taking more technological risk and reaping the benefits.

TorKlingberg2• 10 years ago

How much German do you need to speak in the Berlin startup community?

johnomarkid• 10 years ago

I've lived in Berlin for 3 years and have never had to use German to interact with people in the startup community. Since a high number of startup founders/employees are from other european countries, it's more practical to use English as the language of business.

raverbashing2• 10 years ago

ZERO

But do learn German for everyday needs.

Also you might be in a meetup and some presentations might happen in German

nabla92• 10 years ago

In the meantime while Nordics are home to just 3% of Europe’s population, it has created more than 50% of Europe’s Billion Dollar exits since 2005.

If there is startup capital in Europe, it's Stockholm.

https://medium.com/creandum-family/the-nordics-in-context-th...

harryf• 10 years ago

Part of that is mobile games companies like Supercell with Clash of the Clans - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercell_(video_game_company) ... Hay Day, Angry Birds and others. Basically out of the ashes of Nokia, a bunch of mobile gaming companies has sprung up and to some extent are dominating the industry - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Video_game_companies_... - more at https://techcrunch.com/2016/02/10/from-nokias-snake-game-to-... - apparently they generate 1.8 Billion in total

speeder• 10 years ago

It is not just a nokia thing.

Also from Nordic countries:

1. Linux 2. Irc 3. Demoscene 4. DICE

GBond• 10 years ago

Spotify

nabla92• 10 years ago

King (Candy Crush), Mojang (Minecraft), Rovio (Angry Birds), CCP Games (Eve online), Supercell (Clash of Clans), Unity (game engine) ...

TorKlingberg2• 10 years ago

It is very common for Swedish startups to incorporate in the UK, even if you keep the office in Sweden. It is easier and cheaper to incorporate there, and you get better access to London VCs. I wonder if that will get more difficult.

huac3• 10 years ago

Were London VC's unable to invest in Swedish-incorporated startups before?

bogomipz• 10 years ago

Really? So were all of these companies funded by VCs that are based in Stockholm? Or were they funded by VCs in the US and the UK?

m00dy• 10 years ago

Stockholm has severe housing problem. It is impossible to get long term contracts which means you have to move somewhere else every six months approximately. Living expenses are too high comparing to low salaries. Only a few companies in Stockholm pay higher than 40k swedish krona. (that means 25k after tax. 25k -> 2.6k euros). If you are not a native here, you can only get a flat through black market. Eventually, you pay around 8k-12k sek for a single bedroom with 30 mins commute. Tough winter is also another case.

Denmark has better chance for being the capital of startups in Europe. Higher pay and no rent problem. Stockholm obviously is not going to scale.

If you are planning to move EU, I would definitely suggest Berlin. You can make 55k-70k euros easily. Cheap rent and food. Nothing to say about its nightlife. (best in EU)

lagadu• 10 years ago

no rent problem

I take it you don't live here, it's arguably worse but salaries are noticeably higher so it's impact is not as big.

johnchristopher• 10 years ago

And did thoss exits resulted in sustainable and long-term growth ?

rwallace3• 10 years ago

Shouldn't we hope that something does? By all accounts, the house price situation in London has become bad enough that it's wiping out the middle class, which is very bad news; the rise of the middle class was a key factor in enabling the transition from feudal society to modern civilization.

But while I'm here, I'll throw in a shameless plug: Dublin is still in the EU, and is an English-speaking capital city with modern infrastructure, a skilled workforce, a pleasant climate and low corporate taxes.

fredley2• 10 years ago

The house-pricing problem is not due to startups (although this has put pressure on/gentrified a few small areas). The startup scene is a very small part of London as a whole. It is the combination of under-investment in new housing, building the wrong types of new housing (vast luxury flats instead of smaller, affordable units), and selling large amounts of it to foreign buyers as investments (often left unoccupied), putting further pressure on the remaining stock. Many other factors too - it's a big complicated mess, but these are some of the biggest ones.

rwallace3• 10 years ago

Oh, you're right, startups aren't the main cause of the problem, but anything that moves out of London will help a bit, and it would certainly be good if people who want to create or work in startups had better options.

digi_owl• 10 years ago

Sounds to me like the same kind of crap that has been going on everywhere since the 80s or there about. A while lot of household debt being funneled into a Ponzi scheme based on flipping properties.

parennoob• 10 years ago

Is housing any cheaper in Dublin?

rwallace3• 10 years ago

Yes. The housing situation in Dublin is not as good as I'd like it to be, but it is significantly better than London, even if that is damning with faint praise.

rsynnott3• 10 years ago

Much cheaper. Dublin has a housing crisis (and housing is still far more expensive than Berlin, say), but it's not London levels of absurd. Yet.

paublyrne2• 10 years ago

Dublin has a housing crisis, with a huge shortfall in properties for rent. Construction has largely stalled since 2008.

Wintamute• 10 years ago

Brexit may re-adjust house prices in London by as much as 10 - 18%, so there's that...

lgieron2• 10 years ago

a pleasant climate

I've heard that washing your car in Ireland is a non-issue; the climate takes care of that.

clentaminator• 10 years ago

Some of us actually like the rain ;)

paublyrne2• 10 years ago

The regularity and amount of rainfall in Ireland is greatly exaggerated. The west of the country certainly is a good deal wetter than the east, facing the Atlantic. This list ranks Ireland 80th in terms of rainfall, below Switzerland the UK, Japan, and New Zealand.

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Geography/Ave...

Udik• 10 years ago

The weather is actually terrible. Not cold in the winter, it rarely snows, but just dull, rainy and windy all year round. It's so bad that in sunny summer days people wish each other "enjoy the sun", and sometimes companies give employees half a day off to celebrate.

collyw• 10 years ago

Worked for me in Scotland, which has a very similar climate.

cyphunk4• 10 years ago

The middle-class seems to be something tied to a different era, of industrialization and lifetime jobs. The dwindling middle-class may have more to do with our changing work behavior and desires, than it does cost of living?

secfirstmd2• 10 years ago

People of Ireland speaking here:

-Want to stay in the EU?

-Want to trade in the Eurozone?

-Enjoy low corporate tax rate of 12.5%? Pro-business government?

-Enjoy friendly, well educated, English speaking, Pro-American people, good beer, decent music, nice quality of life, low crime and safe green natural environment? (Look how much fun even our soccer fans are http://www.irishexaminer.com/euro2016/euro2016-banter/10-rea...)

Invest in Ireland -> http://www.idaireland.com This has been a public service announcement from the country next door. #irelandlovesyou :)

nojvek• 10 years ago

Is it very multicultural though? I've heard from friends who have travelled there that non-white folks aren't treated the same and there's a bit of cultural bias. i'd love to visit though.

mhomde2• 10 years ago

I think Berlin and Stockholm are two of the front runners of being "Startup Capital" (whatever that is suppose to mean), having lived in both I can offer some reflections, IMHO of course.

Stockholm is pretty great when it comes to technical and investment maturity. We blew through and did all the stupid dotcom stuff in late 90's, while some have been repeated many successful entrepreneurs learned from that time. Internet access has been really good leading to a lot of good technical talent. It's a beautiful city that want's to be "international" and overall things are very polished. Sweden's also has a track record of producing a few gigantic hits such as Spotify, Soundcloud, Klarna, Skype, Minecraft etc etc.

On the downside the housing situation is insane and everyone has borrowed to the hilt trying to keep up with the ever increasing prices. You can't get hold of an apartment without buying. It's also a pretty expensive place to live. It get's pretty dark & pissy in the winters but summer's are great. I used say that living in Stockholm is 9 months of wondering why the hell you live here and three months where you get the answer.

Berlin in contrast feels like something very unique in Europe and Germany. It's like melting pot of different countries and not quite grown up mentality. Housing is still relatively accessible and affordable, there's even rental contracts to be had. Food and drink is overall cheaper. The startup spirit in Berlin still felt a bit naive when I was there, like a first wave city, but it's big and enthusiastic. However they seem to struggle to product big hits outside of their own country. Maybe the difference between Sweden and Germany is that Sweden is so little we have to go international, and also we're more anglofied. Big companies generally haven't been so big on Berlin since they don't have an international airport, leaving the city wide open for everyone else. On the downside Berlin is a bit meh when it comes to scenery and nature.

Outside the tech scene the English in Berlin is pretty bad and some look down at any not speaking German. Swedes grow up with English and most love every opportunity to use it.

I think there's a good bet Berlin will start to dominate as a "Silicon Valley of Europe", if nothing else because there's a vacuum there that can be filled, and it will become even more international than german. Even Swedes look at Berlin simply because it's cheaper and more accessible. It also has a bit bigger scene when it comes to small "startuppy" kinda ventures while Stockholm dominates on the more serious ones.

Working as an employee seems to suck in Berlin because everyone is looking for a job and job's pay poorly. But if you work for yourself and/or with investment money that doesn't matter and you're in a good position to leverage that money.

794CD01• 10 years ago

The "startup capital of Europe"? Is that like being the soccer capital of America?

dragonwriter2• 10 years ago

The "startup capital of Europe"? Is that like being the soccer capital of America?

Wouldn't that mean that Europe has a fairly strong, by global terms, actual performance in startups, despite European popular culture mostly ignoring startups?

LunaSea• 10 years ago

The American national soccer team got crushed in Copa America so they are pretty far from strong.

nailer2• 10 years ago

Is that like being the soccer capital of America?

Like Brazil? Yes, it is.

huherto• 10 years ago

Out of the box thinking. You nailed it.

rbanffy• 10 years ago

There are about 7 big reasons not to brag about it.

erikb4• 10 years ago

Yeah, like Sao Paolo.

auganov• 10 years ago

Europe never had a proper startup capital, or more accurately never did well at startups in general. It's not unlikely that there will just be less investment, nobody has to win.

Given the very small numbers, every European country [1] has a lot of potential to multiply their startup output. I doubt any trade deals or policy changes are going to bring it about. Not happening without major cultural change IMO. One might as well say that UK just 'bought' itself the ticket to make some major changes (tho I'm not betting my money on it either).

Just look at Israel, that tiny 8 million country consistently tops most European countries in terms of absolute funding. [0]

[0] http://www.slideshare.net/gdibner/europe-israel-4-q14-deals-... [1] maybe with exception of Sweden, it seems to pull of good numbers sometimes (given the small population), but doesn't seem consistent

huac3• 10 years ago

I kinda agree with a 'cultural' factor - Europeans are often more risk-averse than Americans or Israeli's, and starting a startup is definitely risky!

I'm not sure how the Nordic countries get around that though. A stronger social safety net is probably negatively correlated with risk-aversion.

cyphunk4• 10 years ago

I'll second that. I lived in both the US and Israel, eventually settling in the EU precisely because the culture here is much less risk-friendly. People value security more than potential in much of middle EU.

nikanj• 10 years ago

Traditionally, in Europe the state saves for your retirement, and in the US you save for your retirement.

This leads to the US general population having much more savings in their disposal, enabling both bootstrapping via founder savings, and seed funding from friends, family and fools.

bllguo• 10 years ago

I think you mean more risk-averse?

mavsman• 10 years ago

Fairly certain this is not the proper usage of the word "usurp".

corford• 10 years ago

I think Berlin will benefit from brexit but I'm more interested in watching Dublin. Seems to me it should do very well: big tech companies already there, attractive corp tax rates, cheap and easy to incorporate a company (AFAIK?), similar legal concepts and biz regs as the UK, similar banking environment, cheaper rents, everyone speaks english, there are local VCs and presumably London VCs would also find it very easy/familiar to invest.

The one thing the UK still has going for it is SEIS/EIS but there's nothing preventing other countries copying this (e.g. Portugal is about to introduce something similar to SEIS).

cylinder• 10 years ago

Dublin will be corporate/enterprise IT and Berlin will be more consumer.

dmix• 10 years ago

I don't know of many big startups coming out of Dublin. Having many big corp HQs (who are there for tax sheltering and lower income workers) doesn't translate to a lively entrepreneurial scene.

For example, just north of Toronto is a small suburban city called Markham which calls itself the "high-tech capital of Canada" but the only notable thing about the area is the countless glass office towers of multi-national tech companies who built their Canadian HQ there. But the Toronto startup scene is entirely downtown, far from Markham. Or in Waterloo near the university there. I've even not heard of any events taking place up in Markham either, it's just not part of the community in any significant way.

The kind of people who go to work at IBM and AMD don't often leave to create companies nor do the CEOs participate in the startup communities very much. They're people who usually live in the suburbs with families and are happy working 9-5. Nothing wrong with that but the distinction between high-tech corps and startup scenes are often confused as homogeneous entities by outsiders.

cm3• 10 years ago

As a developer I'd wish companies would treat Europe more like United States of Europe and generally accept remote positions in order to have a broader pool of talent and allow employees to economically make the most out of their salary.

I don't want startup capitals, I want an adjustment of mindsets that goes with the rest of the tech advancements.

I've had interviews for already internationally distributed teams where the HR manager insisted on having me full-time onsite without a good argument.

PopsiclePete• 10 years ago

Silicon Valley is ...nice...in certain areas...but overall, I don't like the US way of planning living areas - seems like that unless you have a lot money, you'll be living in some endless suburban sprawl and commuting 90 minutes to work in bumper-to-bumper traffic.

I know pay in Berlin must be lower compared to that in the Valley, but what's life in Berlin like if you're in software?

How's the job situation, relative pay, quality of life? Does anyone regret living there? How are the locals treating you?

I have an EU passport and already speak a little bit of German, if that matters....

piva00• 10 years ago

Berlin is a really cheap city by European standards for developed countries, I live in Stockholm and just went two weekends straight to Berlin (I really love the city), basically if you work with software you're well off.

Food, drinks, entertainment, everything is cheap, your salary will be around €50~55k/year, that means you'll probably get close to €3k/month after taxes, rent is raising but it's still cheap for an European capital (between €700~1.2k depending on what you are looking for) and probably around €150 for utilities (maybe a little less, I'm basing on the numbers a friend who's moving there has been telling me).

Plenty of job openings, every day I check them and there are tons of new openings on LinkedIn, SO Careers, Landing.jobs, etc.

Overall seems to be a great city to live if you like urban gritty cities, I personally love it and plan to move there next year if possible.

Probably you can regret it if you are looking for a calm city to live in, Berlin is very alive and kicking all the time, the Germans I know from Berlin are among the friendliest people I've know in my life (and I'm Brazilian).

And knowing German seems to help a lot, the locals mostly know English but they can be a bit shy to speak it all the time so when you eventually end up with a bunch of Germans they'll be speaking German between them.

Please, if someone see any misinformation correct me as I'm very interested to know better.

erikb4• 10 years ago

Now in a position? Ask Londoners and they will tell you that Berlin has already won that battle. The thing is that Berlin is already expected to be on the downturn, actually.

_pmf_• 10 years ago

Feel free to enjoy our 40000 - 50000 EUR salaries (I'm not saying whether this is bad or good, it's just something to be aware of; don't expect any SV silliness regarding salary here).

dkersten• 10 years ago

Salaries will be lower, but so will cost of living.

bobthechef• 10 years ago

This will hopefully trigger a Central European response (in part caused by stemming emigration). Germany pays into the coffers of the EU in order to basically pay for access to cheap labor from the East and to keep borders open to push its products without suffering tariffs. The result is that Germany experiences a net benefit but at the cost of draining the East of labor it needs to rebuild after the Cold War and stamping out competition in those countries by flooding the market with its products, thus stifling the growth of the economic base in those countries (turning a country like Poland into a giant German service center isn't creating an economic base, it's economic colonialism). This way, Germany maintains dependence and superiority. The only solution for that region is to form the Intermarium to counteract German and Russian dominance in the region. It's an old idea that sadly didn't have the opportunity to be implemented, but perhaps its time has come.

jomamaxx• 10 years ago

I doubt this.

Brexit has really no direct consequence on startups.

With housing prices down and no worries about EU legislation, London would be a great place.

The only outstanding issue would be how the new EU worker visa program would work.

Neither London nor Berlin were huge on startups, this won't materially change anything.

lalibrew• 10 years ago

This is crazy. What is not crazy is the new site that just started, that offers lessons of the English language via Skype. For more information go to https://adapt.nd.edu/members/3044/blog/2015/12/learn-english...

Berlin is now in a position to usurp London as the startup capital of Europe

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