Germany to ban anonymous SIM cards[German]

https://www.pressetext.com/de#news/20160415021

by Bouncingsoul1 • 10 years ago

141 188 10 years ago

pressetext.com

Bouncingsoul1• 10 years ago

Couldn't find link in English. German government is planning to make it impossible to buy SIM cars anonymously.

opless• 10 years ago

Link 404s

JazCE• 10 years ago

This is terrible news. I wanted to get a sim card for Japan, but you can only get a pocket wifi device, which isn't so bad, but not as straightforward as swapping your sim out for a local sim as i do when in the states or malaysia.

hamishforbes• 10 years ago

That's not true. You just can't get a sim card with voice/SMS capability. Foreigners can get data only SIMs no problem, most airports will sell them (often out of a vending machine) e.g. https://t.iijmio.jp/en/

jessriedel• 10 years ago

Given VOIP, what is the rationale of making this distinction?

gedsic• 10 years ago

According to the text, they want to achieve this by forcing vendors/providers to check the ID of the buyer, even for prepaid SIMs.

DominikPeters• 10 years ago

Main points of the article: For purposes of terrorism prevention, the current German government wants to require sellers of SIM cards to check photo ID and ask for current address. If this happens, it will be (theoretically) impossible to own a German phone number that isn't connected to a name.

The address data is supposed to be put into a searchable database allowing security officials to search for names even if the exact spelling isn't known (which appears to be a problem with current systems). For privacy purposes, they plan to put a limit on the number of records displayed in response to a search query.

phillc732• 10 years ago

I think these checks are probably already pretty common in other parts of the world.

For at least the last three or four years in Australia there is a requirement to present Photo ID before buying a SIM card. I was quite surprised by this when I tried to buy a SIM at Sydney airport a few years ago.

I have no idea what the government is doing with the data nor how it is protected. At the time, I just wanted a local SIM and to be on my way.

creshal12• 10 years ago

I think these checks are probably already pretty common in other parts of the world.

Germany is a bit touchy when it comes to measures like this. After the experiences of the Nazi regime, even things like a census or introduction of a TIN met massive, years long resistance.

One election gone wrong is all it takes and all those data will be used for genocide. Again.

cm21874• 10 years ago

I think it is sort of pointless. You have free wifis pretty much everywhere now. You don't really need a SIM card to communicate - even by voice - with other people.

What will happen then? Starbuck will need to ask for your ID when you connect to their wifi? Russia is doing pretty much that with internet cafes.

These control freaks need to get over the idea that they will achieve electronically a level of government control which would be absolutely unacceptable in the physical world (the "I want you to report to the police who you talked to during the day and you also need to check their ID to ensure that your reports to the police are accurate", even the Soviet Union - or the Stasi - didn't go that far).

madiathomas3• 10 years ago

In South Africa, we had this kind of checks since 2003. Not only are you supposed to present an ID book, you are also required to bring a verifiable proof of residence.

While visiting Mozambique a month back, I used a passport to buy a SIM card. Seems like Germany is just catching up with the rest of the world.

geomark• 10 years ago

They do it here in Thailand. Last year they set a cutoff date - if you had not registered your SIM + gov issued id by a certain date your service was cutoff and you couldn't get new service until you did. The reason was "terrorism", because southern insurgents kept using cell phones as remotes to set off bombs. Now the government uses the information to round up pesky people who use chat apps on their phones to organize protests against the military junta. That's the pattern, right? Start with /terrorism/think of the children/war on drugs/ and transition to general oppression of the populace.

dogma11382• 10 years ago

I had to bring my passport to get a pre-paid SIM card in Germany over 3 years ago, this isn't anything special.

The policy seems to be inconsistently applied tho, if you buy it at a large store they'll ask for an ID but you could also get the SIM cards at smaller kiosks and even stands at the airport (Libre mobile which is pretty much the provider for cheap migrant labor across Europe) they didn't seem to care that much.

appleflaxen• 10 years ago

Is there any detail regarding how the requirement will reduce terrorism?

nicelynicely2• 10 years ago

How many terrorists are entering Europe using real names and papers? How many have faked photo ids?

Now they know its coming, won't they just stick up on sims first?

This seems stupid to me.

glasz• 10 years ago

as we learned from paris and 9/11 they bring and lose their IDs.

Ambroos• 10 years ago

Is this so bad? I remember back in 2012 when I visited Berlin I had to register my SIM with my Belgian ID and address too. It only took a few minutes, it's not that much of a hassle. At the phone shop in Belgium where I work we were required to ask for a name and address too (but didn't check ID's for prepaid cards).

I doubt this will solve much terrorism-wise though. You can't expect phone shops to verify the validity of every foreign ID and address, just supplying fake data wouldn't be hard (and probably go unnoticed until it was 'too late').

dogma11382• 10 years ago

If you use a non-EU passport they'll take a copy of it and ask you to register where you are staying.

hartpuff10• 10 years ago

Is this so bad?

A better question is will this stop terrorism? If the answer is no, or unlikely, then it's just yet another inconvenience (and invasion of privacy) for lots of innocent people.

azazqadir2• 10 years ago

I think this is a good move. Whether it can solve terrorism issue or not that does not mean the government can't even try.

tomp• 10 years ago

How would this solve terrorism?

cheshire_cat2• 10 years ago

Some vendors require you to show an ID but right now you can get many SIM-Cards that can be registered online or via phone call and the data provided doesn't get verified. That's the thing they want to change.

tempodox• 10 years ago

If I'm really a bad guy, I just steal a bunch of SIM cards or entire phones.

This is another measure that endangers the innocent and still does nothing to stop the baddies.

vbezhenar• 10 years ago

For me it's certainly bad. Terrorism isn't a real issue, it's an excuse for governments to take freedom from people. I want to be able to use phone and internet without being tracked by anyone.

JustSomeNobody• 10 years ago

This is exactly spot on.

woodman• 10 years ago

Is this so bad? ... I doubt this will solve much terrorism-wise though.

What problem is being solved then? In the best case it is simply power tripping busywork that makes the world a little bit more annoying.

054• 10 years ago

Thankfully because there's no roaming in the EU, there's absolutely no other way to get an unregistered SIM card to work in Germany..

cm21874• 10 years ago

If even if there was roaming, there isn't any internet to order foreign SIM cards online.

cheshire_cat2• 10 years ago

There are already methods in place to get an anonymous SIM card even if this law gets passed. There is a SIM exchange service run by privacy activists. [0]

There are also people that register hundreds of cards on their own name and resell them.

This is just another invasion of privacy and not even worth it imho.

[0] http://www.daten-speicherung.de/index.php/kartentausch/

lukasm• 10 years ago

Get a car in Berlin, drive for 1h to the first gas station in Poland. This is yet another stupid law. No problem for bad guys, just hurting legitimate businesses.

And obviously no identity theft will happen, since no one ever hacked any provider and you cannot ask a homeless guy to buy you a dozen.

ghshephard4• 10 years ago

Presumably all european nations will harmonize in the next year or two and it will be a requirement to provide government identification prior to purchasing a data SIM.

icebraining4• 10 years ago

Why is that presumable?

programLyrique• 10 years ago

An ID is required in France (and presumably in other EU countries) to buy a SIM card and has been for some years... and yet no harmonization has taken place.

snowwolf2• 10 years ago

There is roaming in the EU, but it's not cheap - but that is changing very soon https://ec.europa.eu/digital-single-market/en/roaming-tariff...

At which point you can just get your anonymous SIM from any EU country that still issues unregistered SIMs.

Edit: I may have missed the sarcasm in the parent post..

TazeTSchnitzel2• 10 years ago

Roaming in the EU is cheap. On pay-as-you-go (prepaid), it's cheaper for me to send a text or make a call from Germany than it is back home here in the UK.

jkot2• 10 years ago

Anon SIMs are already banned in many EU countries. It does not really work, some homeless people have thousands SIMs registered on their name.

Also opposition in Germany says this might be discriminatory to refugees, since some of them have no documents.

the_mitsuhiko2• 10 years ago

In which ones? I have manu prepaid sims from all over Europe and the only one with a name on is an old italian one when they required it. Which i think they no longer do.

jkot2• 10 years ago

I had to show ID in Czech Republic, Hungaria, Ireland and Greece.

pmontra• 10 years ago

Italy still requires to link a SIM to a person. I don't remember if I had to show my id or my fiscal code last time I got a new SIM. No more than a 30 seconds procedure. They note it down and that's it. It's been like that for so long that I forgot when and why they introduced this legislation.

trappedfly• 10 years ago

It is still required to have your name tied to SIMs in Italy. You are asked to show an ID (or driver's license) and your fiscal code[1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_fiscal_code_card

JorgeGT• 10 years ago

In Spain you must present a valid ID since a few years ago. After a grace period they deactivated all SIMs not linked to a name.

junto• 10 years ago

I didn't realise it wasn't possible. I've always been asked for ID.

aluhut• 10 years ago

You could buy those "Sets" at ALDI for example. You would still have to register it somehow. I did it once on a public phone stating fake information. Phone stopped working after few weeks.

madiathomas3• 10 years ago

In South Africa, we have had this kind of legislation since 2003. It is called RICA(Regulation of Interception of Communications and Provision of Communication-Related Information Act). Shops aren't allowed to sell a SIM card without proof of identification. Foreigners can use their passports to register a SIM card.

It takes few minutes. This was done to fight identity theft. We don't have terrorism problem here because people who used to be regarded as terrorists(freedom fighters) by former unjust, apartheid government are now in power. If your SIM card is registered under your name, no-one else will be allowed to do a SIM swap on it. Only you can do such after providing proof of identification.

I feel it makes it easy for the law enforcement agencies to track down criminals if they used the SIM card to commit crime. Our government doesn't have history of invading privacy of their citizens, which makes it easier to trust them.

_djo_• 10 years ago

I feel it makes it easy for the law enforcement agencies to track down criminals if they used the SIM card to commit crime.

No, it doesn't. SIM cards registered with false identities are available for about R50 apiece in central Johannesburg, without any need for the buyer to provide identification. The police are aware of this.

Our government doesn't have history of invading privacy of their citizens, which makes it easier to trust them.

That's naive, there have been a number of stories showing just how badly the government abuses the privacy of ordinary citizens. Amongst these was a story by the Mail and Guardian showing that the government had performed over 6 million electronic intercepts in the first years that RICA was active, along with testimony from current and former intelligence officers stating that they often hid unauthorised intercepts amongst the multitude of authorised ones.

There is also clear evidence that a number of journalists, including two at the Mail and Guardian, have had their phone calls, text message and internet usage intercepted by SA intelligence agencies.

As for authorisation, all the state requires to perform a broad intercept is the say-so of a retired judge appointed and paid by the Minister of Justice. That means that unlike a regular court judge, whose remuneration and service depends on an independent entity in the Judicial Services Commission, the RICA judge is subservient to the Executive.

The access for those intercepts is easy too, given that RICA requires that the major phone companies, internet exchanges and ISPs create real-time data feeds into the various Interception Centres managed by the Office of Interception Centres. This allows them to snoop on the internet and phone traffic of all South Africans in real-time without the need to even inform the companies providing the data.

RICA's main purpose was to make it easier for the state to legally surveil as many people as it wanted to without too much in the way of opposition. It's not a good law.

madiathomas3• 10 years ago

Thanks for the information. I didn't know that there is so much surveillance from our government. Snooping on journalists isn't on at all. Now I know my text messages aren't safe.

donohoe• 10 years ago

If I want to text or talk to you over a cell network I need to show ID.

If I want to text, call (VOIP), email, chat, message you over wifi I don't.

Sounds very secure.

TACIXAT2• 10 years ago

What I dislike about it is as more sites require sms verification, your sms number becomes a 'real id'. Given that your mobile subscriber likely sells your demographic information, it's pretty shit for privacy. A lot of services reject voip numbers for verification.

tunap2• 10 years ago

This is why 'free' online services require your mobile number to activate & "protect access" to your account. Sure it works for that purpose, but more importantly, for data/digital tracking, the modern mobile has become the new tracking super-cookie to your digital ID.

wolfgke10• 10 years ago

Are these services really that important for you that you are willing give them your phone number for verification. I personally don't even own a cell phone and up to now I never felt the need of a service that requires SMS verification.

arviewer2• 10 years ago

And again, a new measure that will affect everybody except criminals, who pay a drug addict to register hundreds of these cards.

ghshephard4• 10 years ago

Well, only the criminals that put some effort. Somewhat effective at tracking down the lazy criminals. Also, in places like Singapore, you can only own 5 Data SIMs before they start asking tougher questions. I wasn't aware there were countries that you could purchase data SIMs in without having to hand over passport/government ID, I'd just assumed that was a ubiquitous practice.

wiredfool• 10 years ago

I've bought several sims in the UK and Ireland over the past year, and none of them have taken an ID.

arviewer2• 10 years ago

In the Netherlands you can buy sim cards without any ID. If you pay them cash, there is no link to you, except maybe a security camera in the shop. You don't need to activate them - they work right away.

toomanybeersies2• 10 years ago

In New Zealand, >90% of phones are pre-paid and anonymous (unless you opt to fill in your personal details online).

It's strange to think that other countries have restrictions on buying SIM cards, I can literally go to the corner store and get one for $20, with $20 credit on it.

na85• 10 years ago

It's not intended to stop criminals. It's intended for surveillance and tracking of the population.

Otherwise it would be a waste of time and money.

fauigerzigerk7• 10 years ago

How is survaillance of the entire population not a waste of time and money if it's not ultimately intended to catch criminals?

rtpg• 10 years ago

I think you might be overestimating how valuable mass surveillance is for any individual actor in the government, and perhaps the level of foresight necessary... and the amount of thought that goes into this.

" We keep on getting stuck in investigations because of SIM cards not associated to a name!"

" Well let's ban anonymous SIM cards. People should be alright handing over their name for a cell phone."

"Alrighty then, sounds good"

Things like this happen because nobody in the room mentions the drawbacks. This can mainly be a question of social status ("Why would people be afraid of the police? They help you!").

Also, some people's value systems are different...

fab13n5• 10 years ago

But then, the simple fact that you're using a SIM card bought from a known SIM-trafficking criminal makes you worthy of interest. The phone being instrumental in a first crime, it'll be easy to get a wire warrant and listen for the subsequent crimes you'll commit by using it.

Most criminals aren't masterminds (and the few who are, are genrelly designed with other names, such as "politicians"); if you make it difficult to procure a phone, and a weapon, and to hide on the net, etc., many of them won't be able to assemble everything they need to commit serious crimes without getting caught.

One of the reasons why gun homicides are so much less prevalent in Europe is that if a minority of hardcore, resourceful criminals can find guns through black markets, most of the random losers can't: too complicated, too expansive, some planning-ahead required... And the many losers are the ones causing the bulk of criminality, not the few hardcore criminals.

phn• 10 years ago

The comparison with guns doesn't really hold up.

Guns are not a fundamental piece or even really necessary, when living in a modern society. A SIM card on the other hand, is pretty darn convenient for the general population.

pmarreck2• 10 years ago

But then, the simple fact that you're using a SIM card bought from a known SIM-trafficking criminal makes you worthy of interest.

This is the same circular non-logic that permits officers to arrest you merely for resisting arrest.

The state decides to make wearing blue illegal; I continue to because I am a strong "blue believer"; thus, merely by insisting on wearing blue, I MUST hang with other law-non-abiders (aka "criminals") and thus become a "person of interest" to law enforcement for no other reason than sticking to principles.

Possessing an anonymous SIM card is no sole indicator that you are up to no good. Assuming so is problematic due to a good privacy argument by Martin Fowler: http://martinfowler.com/articles/bothersome-privacy.html

saiya-jin• 10 years ago

You sir have apparently no idea how easy is to obtain guns in european underworld, and I don't mean Ukraine or Albania.

Want to buy AK-47 with ammo in Paris? Just go to shady suburbs, if you know where to go/right people it's piece of cake for few hundred euros (not living there myself, but I have a colleague who comes from there and this is his consistent description).

CaptSpify• 10 years ago

But then, the simple fact that you're using a SIM card bought from a known SIM-trafficking criminal makes you worthy of interest.

Do you think someone who bought a sim-card from someone else is going to "register" that card with authorities? "Hey, I just bought this card, so you can't follow me. Where do I update my info?"

guard-of-terra2• 10 years ago

Yet another example of "terrorists hurt you, so we're going to hurt you to compensate".

Can we please think of something to stop this?

harperlee• 10 years ago

I know for a fact that there are big banks that don't even have the ID of lots of clients. I'm skeptical of the speed that telcos will apply on the remediation of all these clients. I actually believe the existing clients might stay undocumented forever.

jasiek• 10 years ago

Dang, I wonder what would happen if someone were to use fake ID "issued" the Republic of Nagorno-Karabakh.

coldcode• 10 years ago

I'm an official in the country of Nagorno-Karabakh, all of our ID's are fake.

guard-of-terra2• 10 years ago

I bet all citizens of Nagorno-Karabakh also hold perfectly valid Armenian passport.

EGreg• 10 years ago

Anonymity can be obtained in one of two ways:

1) Building up a tree of accounts from anonymous services like mailinator and anonymously bought sim cards and phones

2) Hijacking random people's equipment in order to do 1.

By banning anonymous services, people will have to turn to temporary hijacking to achieve the same ends.

Kequc• 10 years ago

I didn't even know you could get an anonymous sim. The gauntlet of questions I was asked and the paperwork the salesman thankfully filled out for me, for a prepaid sim, was dizzying.

Obviously if I knew I could have just bought one off a shelf I would have.

expertentipp• 10 years ago

An ID document and proof of address are already required in Germany when buying SIM card directly from mobile network operators (i.e. Telekom, O2, Vodafone). Apparently they plan to apply the same to resellers and virtual operators.

jeffasinger• 10 years ago

The ID requirement and address requirement were not enforced all that strictly when I was last in Germany.

I bought a 10EUR SIM with a US driver's license (had left my passport in the hostel, and just wrote down the address of the hostel I was staying at).

venomsnake• 10 years ago

Oh well. I will create a MVNO in some of the tax heavens. Couple of roaming agreements and we are set. And just issue sim cards at large. It will be more expensive. But doable.

btreesOfSpring• 10 years ago

let's just add to the servicewüste[0] of dealing with communication companies in Germany.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servicew%C3%BCste

titzer• 10 years ago

I live in Germany. In general Germans are very privacy conscious, due to, as others have mentioned in this thread, experiences with the Stasi. Up until recently with the refugee situation, border control hasn't been too strict, and agents generally don't berate you with questions if you possess validate documents.

This pisses me off, and I wager a large portion of the German populace. Let's hope this goes down in flames.

cloudjacker• 10 years ago

A lot of germans I know are concerned about the new representation of extremist parties in the last elections.

My perspective is continually that the existing government fails to represent the people, and any polar opposite party will force the existing government to compromise in their plans, and create policies that do more accurately reflect the will of the people.

Exhibit a

tdkl• 10 years ago

Up until recently with the refugee situation

That's why they were invited - they could never introduce such measures, but now they're making you "safe".

stegosaurus2• 10 years ago

The last time I visited Germany I was asked for my details in order to buy a phone, and the same to register the SIM card.

I just gave invented details both times.

So now it's impossible, eh?

A mobile phone might be a 'new invention' that you can get away with not using, but what about transport? In my city it's been game over for years, decades even.

The London Underground is the one subway in London. It uses a smart card, the cash fares are a multiple of the cost, and there are CCTV cameras everywhere anyway so you're tracked.

The red buses removed cash fares and now smart card/contactless bank card are the only way of paying.

The central region is plastered in car licence plate recognition cameras so you can't drive. (They exist ostensibly because there is a congestion charge for driving in the central region).

You can cycle or walk but facial recognition kills that eventually.

So yeah, existing in London basically means the authorities know, or have the ability to know, where you are at all times within a few metres regardless of whether you use a phone or not, it's just a matter of how integrated these databases are and whether anyone can be bothered.

To me it feels a lot like, in major cities anyway, this privacy battle is just completely lost, because there are attacks on all fronts. You can have your anonymous phone, but are you wearing face paints? Do you ever drive? Do you ever take public transport?

The further you go out of the city, assuming you don't have a mobile phone, I suppose there are fewer data points available. You can roam about in farmer's fields or something, no cameras there yet. Maybe the minor cities have analogue cameras, or they're turned off due to funding, or whatever.

It's gone beyond something to be depressed or feel a call to action about at this point I feel - it's a bit like a lion chasing a gazelle - it just is. Fighting against this individual initiative feels good, but is it ultimately futile?

The actions required in order to attempt not to fall into these databases seem to have gone from "don't use your real name online" to "don't drive a car" to "don't take trains with your bank card" to "pay cash on the bus" to... eventually it's just done, all of it's tracked, I can pay with cash at the local store but there's a digital IP camera in the corner so sooner or later they know it anyway.

And the rational amongst us know that it's not about us. It means nothing that I can go 'off the grid'. What means something is that society as a whole is able to appreciate this, and I think the number of intrusions is high enough now that they simply can't. It's like asking people to go without oxygen. It's everywhere.

The fight I'm really concerned with is privacy within the home, in private establishments. I want to know that conversations between me and my friends stay within that box, that private sphere. Miniaturization and propagation of technology just seems to make that an impossible goal, though.

I don't want it, but I really feel like privacy is dead, we just don't fully know it yet.

stegosaurus2• 10 years ago

One thing I am interested in is visualizing a journey, or an average day, and considering the global view of it.

Has anyone attempted such a thing? For example, on my commute to work I might pass a security camera, tap in my smart card, pass a few more cameras, spend 50 mins on a predefined route (unless I jumped a fence which a camera would probably see me doing), etc etc.

So on the left side of the 'video', you would have me walking about doing stuff, and on the right side, you can have a google-maps overlay of what's actually happening, little pop ups 'stegosaurus buys a pack of chewing gum', etc.

The idea has been floating around in my head for a while, I don't know why or what I'd hope it would achieve, just seems like a fun way to illustrate the problem, if it even is a problem and not just a natural progression.

ChrisArchitect• 10 years ago

as a tourist, first priority on the ground in a new country is to get a data connection. I had more difficulty in Germany than other EU countries visited around the same time. Despite promise of a handful of prepaid sim's available everywhere, activation was a roadblock because no local credit card. Eventually found my way to an O2 store where they used their own store address to activate for me and it was all good

054• 10 years ago

There's a Wiki specifically for that purpose [1]. I had minimal problems buying Fyve (Vodafone MVNO) SIM cards two years ago, activated at the point of purchase if I remember correctly. I had to cut them to Nano SIM size myself though..

[1] http://prepaid-data-sim-card.wikia.com/wiki/Germany

swimfar• 10 years ago

In a tangentially related topic, here's an interesting animation of location tracking of a German politician based on his phone records:

http://www.zeit.de/datenschutz/malte-spitz-data-retention

Malte Spitz sued to have his telephone provider hand over six months of his phone data. He gave it to Zeit Online who used it to create this record of where he had been.

It's probably not too surprising to many people any more, but I still find it amazing when I watch it. And it might be interesting to people who don't realize how detailed the information is. I also think the visualisation is nice.

IvyMike• 10 years ago

If you've got an Android phone and location history is on, take a look at your own: https://www.google.com/maps/timeline

orbitingpluto• 10 years ago

Did I read that right? Complete address required?

First you get rid of the public payphones, then you require a valid address for a mobile. Poof! The homeless truly can disappear.

nikolay• 10 years ago

Those SIM cards are also banned in Bulgaria, but people find all kinds of way to buy hundreds of cards that belong to retired or mentally ill people, and others or import cards from abroad.

gozur88• 10 years ago

When I was vacationing in Germany years ago I couldn't get a prepaid phone or a sim without having a German address. Did they make it easier only to now make it more difficult?

Germany to ban anonymous SIM cards[German]

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