How I Landed A $50/hr Side Gig With Little Effort

http://www.zacharyburt.com/2010/02/how-i-landed-a-50hr-side-gig-with-very-little-effort-how-it-relates-to-picking-up-chicks/

by zackattack • 16 years ago

122 130 16 years ago

zacharyburt.com

matrix• 16 years ago

Sounds like someone is a Steve Pavlina fan...

I find Pavlina to be interesting, but sadly he went w-a-y off into cuckoo land a while back.

adamhowell• 16 years ago

Man, you aren't kidding.

Polyphasic sleep? Fine. Conscious growth? Um, ok. Polygamy? Woah, what?!

dkersten• 16 years ago

You say Woah, what?!, some say Hell Yeah!

theorique• 16 years ago

Polyamory, dude. Balanced rules for the goose and gander :)

But actually, that's so 2009... check out his 2010 plan if you're curious ;)

jodrellblank3• 16 years ago

I said "Polygamy, er, I guess you can write about that"

Then a bit later "Steve and Erin have split up? That casts a different light on the posts about how intimate and great their relationship was, how he wants to focus on relationships more, and how he now wants to branch out polyamorously..."

michaelkeenan• 16 years ago

Be polite! Polyamory is common enough among geeks and SF area types that there must be a few HN-reading polyamorists. It's brave of Pavlina to write about tabooed topics[1]. And it can't be any more fun for polyamorists to encounter incredulity and derision than it was for the first open homosexuals or interracial couples.

[1] cf. http://www.paulgraham.com/say.html

westbywest2• 16 years ago

Never been a fan of polyphasic sleep. The consequences, e.g. complete disconnect with diurnal society, not to mention side effects yet to be understood, seem pretty grave. Even Buckminster Fuller gave it up due to his wife's objections (or so the story goes).

In the end, you're not a robot with tunable duty cycle. You do your body a disservice treating it like that.

philwelch7• 16 years ago

Heh, I would actually put that in reverse. I'm pretty comfortable with polyamory, but I don't buy into polyphasic sleep for a minute, and the idea that he married a telephone psychic (and takes her profession seriously!) is what put him into question for me.

oscardelben• 16 years ago

Today's post is not bad. Recently he started again to post interesting stuff, although is lot of theory and no more 30 days trials.

tialys• 16 years ago

Where do you meet these kind of people? The last job I interviewed for wanted me to work as a contractor and wanted to pay me $15/hr. When I said that was too low to cover my costs and taxes, and was much less than I usually make, he insisted that he pays people with years more experience just around $20, and that he though $15 seemed fair! I'm glad he was successful, but try to remember that results are not typical.

bphogan• 16 years ago

There are plenty of those. But there are also plenty of smart people who are willing to pay more because they understand the value.

It's been my experience that the less someone is willing to pay you for your work, the less they value it. Then every detail becomes subject to scrutiny on the invoice.

If you're good at what you do, and you can prove it, you'll eventually find jobs that pay you what you're worth. It just takes more effort to find them.

And of course, standing firm on your rates helps. You won't get all the gigs, but you probably don't want the headaches that would come with them.

Keep in mind that the negotiation on rate is a glimpse into how future negotiations will go. Contracting is all about negotiations. (Deadlines, feature requests, etc.)

The employer is looking to keep costs down. You're looking to eat. But neither of you should come away feeling cheated. Don't charge more than you're worth, and don't accept less.

smcq• 16 years ago

I've had this before, it works pretty well to say "do not contact me again" and go on with your life as if it never happened.

maigret• 16 years ago

And that relates well to the Girl story the author wrote :)

byrneseyeview• 16 years ago

When you say "It's too low to cover my costs," you're not telling him why he should care. "My regular rate is $25; my best clients pay me $20," is probably a better response.

subwindow2• 16 years ago

I agree. It isn't how much you cost, it is how much you're worth.

anamax• 16 years ago

> The last job I interviewed for wanted me to work as a contractor and wanted to pay me $15/hr. When I said that was too low to cover my costs and taxes, and was much less than I usually make, he insisted that he pays people with years more experience just around $20, and that he though $15 seemed fair!

If that's true, you need to start a consultancy with those "people with years more experience " as your subcontractors. You charge $40-50/hr for their time and pass through $25-40/hr to them. You both win.

lief79• 16 years ago

But if they are willing to work for that rate, they might only be worth it. At a minimum, I'd give them a few test assignments and be prepared to back them up before sending them to anyone else under your name.

Alternately, give a known quality associate a discount rate in order to get a firmer opinion of their work ethic.

At least while starting out, I'd emphasize quality over quantity. Alternately, go in as a team, and see how much slack needs to be picked up.

jdminhbg• 16 years ago

The problem is that you let him insist what he pays people and continued to listen. It's easier to meet good clients if you don't waste your time with bad ones. Someone who wants to pay the same going rate as Walmart or Target is not worth your time. Even if you negotiate him up, he will try to screw you later. Just move on.

run4yourlives3• 16 years ago

You always have the option of saying no. $15 seems fair to him only because people have agreed that it actually is.

enra• 16 years ago

"Work for free or for full price. Never for cheap."

Sukotto3• 16 years ago

That's when you wish them luck in their endeavor, and break off the conversation.

dabent• 16 years ago

"I experimented with raising my prices super high..."

The best thing I did was to try that years ago. One of my bosses told me he did that and not only found work, but respect, because his employers perceived his value and opinions as being worth more. If you have the skills, you can find yourself on a whole new level of employment.

simonw• 16 years ago

The best piece of freelancing advice I ever got was, essentially, "raise your prices on every gig you do and keep going until no one will hire you".

100k• 16 years ago

I like it! What increment did you use?

ErrantX• 16 years ago

A year or so ago I was looking for a polite way to turn a load of work down from certain clients - so I set my rate 8 times what I was currently charging on the premise it would put them off without me outright saying no.

Complete failure there because they happily wanted to pay it (and you cant turn it down then :()

khafra• 16 years ago

That has some nice side effects, though.

ams6110• 16 years ago

When you quote a high rate you can always come down if you discover you really want the work for some reason. Once you throw out a number, that's the ceiling.

tocomment• 16 years ago

By the way, if anyone is interested in finding gigs on Craigslist, elance, etc, try out my learning gig filter: http://www.gigbayes.com/

You do have to be patient with it. It takes 20-30 ratings for it to start knowing your preferences.

sheraz• 16 years ago

Man, that is a long way to go for a ham sandwich.

I like some of your thoughts but it I do not believe it is this complex. Maybe the new title should be "How personal confidence affects perceived value, both in business and in meeting chicks."

That is why you got $50 an hour. Confidence.

run4yourlives3• 16 years ago

That is the crux of it, however his post offers more value in the end than your comment does. :-)

Psyonic5• 16 years ago

I'd disagree. While the story itself was worthwhile, the last thing we need is more "you create your own universe (literally)" posts on HN. If this site becomes a place where "The Secret" is given any credence, it's going to go downhill in a hurry.

For example: "Reiterating: Other people are only projections of your own consciousness. If you are not a friend to everyone then you are not a friend to yourself."

This is just plain stupid. I can't say it any plainer. I hate to Godwin this discussion, but Hitler killing millions of Jews was not a projection of myself, and if I was alive during that time-period, I sure as hell wouldn't have been a friend to Hitler.

I'm with him that you should look for how you can contribute, rather than take (positive sum game vs. zero sum game), but those lessons can be taught without the "metaphysics" and bullshit.

Last Edit: And finally, in case you don't buy into that stuff either, but think it's basically harmless, review the case of the now arrested James Arthur Ray: http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20341429,00.html

zephyrfalcon• 16 years ago

Agreed. Unfortunately it works the other way around too. If you don't appear confident, perceived value goes down...

teye• 16 years ago

Great comments on value and scarcity in social interactions. Being conscious of this has made me more successful too.

The notion of value offering is very different from value taking. Value offering coincides with abundance mentality; value taking coincides with scarcity mentality. When you are value offering, you really want to help the other person. You want to present them with the truth and honestly evaluate how you could meet their needs, rather than manipulating and micromanaging to get your end of the deal. You create a win-win situation.

Also, sounds like someone has had some experience with pickup.

aw3c2• 16 years ago

Hey Zack, your site does have a problem with javascript-disabled people. It only renders "You must have Javascript enabled to view this site."

slig2• 16 years ago

Zack, it would be nice if you set up a twitter. I'd rather follow new posts there than via rss.

zackattack• 16 years ago

I think this is a reasonable request. I set up my RSS feed to publish to my @zburt twitter account, thanks to the nifty twitterfeed.com service.

slig2• 16 years ago

Thanks!

efsavage• 16 years ago

The fact that the article conflated dating advice into job searching, and mentioned hopping on a longboard would normally be more than enough for me to abort and ignore, but there is a very important nugget in there; that how you carry and project yourself is such a big part of having an enjoyable career.

lsc5• 16 years ago

Self confidence is useful for making money as a contractor, but I know I felt a lot better about myself after I productized my work and thus largely made apparent self-confidence irrelevant.

subwindow2• 16 years ago

$50 an hour is pretty good for 22. At that age I was making $30 an hour and ecstatic to be getting that much. Even that seemed astronomical compared to the $12 I was making two years before. Now, of course, all of those seem like piddly sums compared to the $75-100 an hour I bring in now as a full-time consultant at the age of 26.

While age and experience has a lot to do with why my rate has climbed so high and so fast, mostly it is due to confidence. You have to ignore your inner critic that says you are not worth $12/30/50/75 an hour, and honestly consider what your time is worth. Would you trade an extra hour of sleep or an extra hour with your girlfriend for the price of a meal at Chili's? A tank of gas? A shitty coffee table at Ikea?

There's a spectrum there, and you have to place yourself as high in the spectrum as possible. Don't stop going higher- even if people laugh at you. Two days before I landed my first gig at $75 an hour I had a recruiter laugh at me and that rate. Ignore them. Trust yourself. Trust your abilities. Charge a good price for your time. Because after all, time is all we have. Make them pay for it.

olegk2• 16 years ago

Recruiters are the worst. You'd think it's their job to get you the highest paying job out there, but it's quite the opposite. Their goal is to sell you as fast as possible, regardless of the rate.

That's why you should never listen to recruiters telling you that you want too much. It's bullshit.

jayliew• 16 years ago

Actually, more often than not recruiter's best interest is against yours. Recruiters in companies have one job: to get as high of a talent as possible - for as low cost as possible. Right? Everybody is shopping for the best bargain.

dnsworks9• 16 years ago

I disagree. I was 22 when I quit my last job as a wage-slave, and that year I billed out 1100 hours at $125/hour. That might have been the best year of my life. A 6-figure salary for working essentially half-time.

ramchip• 16 years ago

You did consultancy? Can you post a few details? I'm 21 and making about $10/hour developing C++ software in a physics lab...

quickpost2• 16 years ago

What kind of consulting do you do? Software?

philipn• 16 years ago

Wouldn't $50/hr be pretty low for NYC software engineering?

andrewljohnson• 16 years ago

I had the same thought, but...

I would say that $50/hour is a fine wage for your first gig, no matter where you are. However, that's not a reasonable long-term salary. Even if you bill out 2000 hours a year, you walk away with 100K. Then, you still need to pay taxes, insurance, and save for retirement. It's like making less than 50K at a job with benefits, except you work twice as much.

A $50/hour wage is not bad to start, but a long-term contractor needs to command above $100/hour, more like $200 in NYC.

I think my first contracting gig paid something like $8/hour. I did a website for someone for a flat fee, and it took me longer than I hoped :)

rjurney• 16 years ago

Agreed. Its much easier to ask for $100 with a track record at $50, a reference, etc. Then ask for more as demand dictates. The ideal situation is to build your demand and clientele to the point that you get $200+ for the most demanding work that requires the least time.

petercooper• 16 years ago

However, that's not a reasonable long-term salary. [..] you walk away with 100K [..] It's like making less than 50K at a job with benefits

I'm glad that there are people who believe that 50K isn't a reasonable salary, because if you get used to spending less than half that, you can deal with almost any crisis while everyone else gets into panic mode as soon as they're out of work for a month or can't pay for fancy private schools or bizarrely structured retirement funds :-)

NYC's expensive, sure, but 50K is above even the NYC median personal income (and to the best of my research, just above the median NYC household income too).

ronnier• 16 years ago

Minus at least 30%, probably more in NYC, for taxes. It will probably be more towards $25/hr.

encoderer2• 16 years ago

He's 22.

teej• 16 years ago

How much you get paid is a function of your perceived value and your employers budget. Age can affect the former, but only if you let it.

illumin8• 16 years ago

It sounds like he also found the job on Craigslist. I've found that most of the jobs on Craigslist are wishful thinking... must have 10+ years of CSS/JS/HTML5/J2EE/C/C+/C++ - salary is $15/hr.

nir• 16 years ago

Don't forget the 10+ years iPhone dev experience (we'll pay you in equity)

vital101• 16 years ago

I recently landed a job via Craigslist. It pays well for my region(Michigan) and seems to be a great company to work for so far. I have a feeling I'm the exception though, not the rule.

lsc5• 16 years ago

eh, craigslist runs the gamut. I once scored a $200/hr gig back when that was 3x my normal rate off craigslist.

grimoire2• 16 years ago

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grimoire2• 16 years ago

For my last side gig I charged $100/hr. I didn't need the gig, nor did I really want it, since I had just changed real jobs. They didn't like the price, but went for it anyway.

thinkbohemian• 16 years ago

wow, that was long rambling and almost borderline incoherent. Latch on and enjoy the ride. There are some gems tucked away in there:

"You can’t cheat others without cheating yourself."

westbywest2• 16 years ago

Perhaps this approach works in an area saturated both with capital for would-be employers to spend, and with the contractors themselves, so that competition allows such negotiation. Indeed, NYC is undoubtedly such an area.

In other parts of the country, especially during these times, an area can truly have enough of a cumulative lack of available capital, that being hired at all is considered an accomplishment.

I can do freelance work that in other cities that fetches $100/hr handily, but my Midwest city shelters few people who can pay that, regardless of my poise or professionalism.

skolor• 16 years ago

I don't have a lot of experience programming, at least not professionally. I tend to hack a lot of quick scripts together, and have recently started working on some larger projects.

Anyway, I figured it would be worth giving this a shot. I went on Craigslist, browsed through the gigs, and picked one that looked promising. I made a quick estimate of my time, doubled it, and sent off an email to him. 6 sentences, and I used the word "simple" in 2 of them, and I made sure to use a "indifferent" attitude. The lister got back to me within 15 minutes saying that my price was "too much", that he had been quoted prices for less than a third of that. And then he proceeded to give me his number, and told me to call him and discuss what needed to be done for the project.

Not that it means anything, but the 20 minutes I spent looking at craigslist during my lunch break due to this post seem to have been well worth it (although, admittedly, I barely skimmed the actual post, and just read the comments here in detail).

ceeing• 16 years ago

By increasing your hourly rate you naturally start with higher expectations from your client. In the same respect the expectations I put on myself are higher, and I see this as a way to strengthen my output by intensifying my effort.

workingstiff• 16 years ago

My 3 favorite things to say to recruiters:

1. Bartenders make more than what you are offering me.

2. According to last year's 10K SEC filing, you made $X Billion, and you can't afford me?

3. You must be accustomed to dealing with desperate people, not talented people.

JacobAldridge2• 16 years ago

Wish I had the cojones - here are the 3 least favourite responses I'd expect:

1. Sure, but bartenders have people skills

2. According to last month's data, our pool of potential employees has 10.5% unemployment, and you can afford to live on food stamps?

3. There are many talented and desperate ways to reject your application, but you've probably heard them all.

vishaldpatel• 16 years ago

1. I wouldn't offer a salary to someone who I felt wasn't good enough for a job. If the job needs people skills, then he'd only get an offer from me if I thought he already had them / could gain them.

2. Pointing out to someone that they are very successful and can afford you isn't insulting. Pointing out to someone that they'd be on food stamps if you don't throw them a bone is, because it belittles them.

3. Dick move all around.

Don't forget that salary negotiation is supposed to be just that - a negotiation. You arrive to it when most other terms of employment seem acceptable.

camccann3• 16 years ago

4. How appropriate, you fight like a cow!

...sorry, just seemed to fit the theme.

commonsense8• 16 years ago

You're assuming that I don't have other clients. That's the #1 difference between someone who makes money, and someone who works at the mercy of their employers.

> 1. Sure, but bartenders have people skills

No they don't. They serve drinks in very loud, noisy bars where everyone is drunk. That's the kind of bartender that makes $75k+

Furthermore, so do I. That's how I charge $150/hr.

> 2. According to last month's data, our pool of potential employees has 10.5% unemployment, and you can afford to live on food stamps?

That's begging the question whether or not I am employed. I am employed. I have other clients. I do not live on food stamps. I am currently making my asking rate on a regular basis and have been for nearly a decade, or else I would not be asking for it. If I were not able to make this rate, I would lower it. This is very simple logic, although it may not be if you are viewing it through the prism of desperation. REJECT the prism of desperation. It will handicap you for the rest of your professional life.

> 3. There are many talented and desperate ways to reject your application, but you've probably heard them all.

Really? The only one I've heard is "we can't afford you.", or "we found someone cheaper", which really is not my problem at ALL.

You need to get those cojones, or you will be continue to be taken advantage of. Business people actively LOOK for weak willed developers. But - believe it or not - they respond positively to developers with balls, because they are so unaccustomed to hearing it. This is a basic tenet of human nature that many developers do not realize because they are too busy preoccupying themselves with machine logic.

At some point, you need to tell yourself that you've learned enough fucking machine logic. You're not going to be writing assembly language for these people. You're building applications (dev and integration work, basically) that will make them money. That frees up your brain to think of other things like human interaction and how to sell yourself.

Humans are not machines. Business is not a logical process. It's human interaction. When money changes hands, it's from one human (or group of humans) to another, no matter how deep the abstracted technical logic has been built to be.

dnsworks9• 16 years ago

#1 is a stretch. Bartenders make $50-$100/hour 2-3 nights per week, for 4-6 hours of their shifts. The best bartenders in SF are grossing $65k-$75k .. Not really the equivalent. They're still working poor by local standards.

lg• 16 years ago

Are you saying 65-75k is 'poor' in SF? Or are you excluding the best bartenders from that category?

commonsense8• 16 years ago

> grossing $65k-$75k

That's my fucking point! Remember bartenders get paid in cash. And they're free to spend that tax-free cash with a MASSIVE homie discount when they go out to bars and restaurants and clubs and other establishments in the same city they work in because hospitality industry people give each other discounts.

How much do you think a developer who charges $50/hr is grossing after taxes? Not EVEN $75k, especially not if they apply the same confidence to their Schedule C deductions that some people on this forum have applied to their careers.

Highly skilled people like competent UNIX engineers should be making a LEAST 2-3x a bartender.

Naive, naive, naive.

F_J_H• 16 years ago

"All idealism is mendaciousness in the face of what is necessary." - Nietzsche

dbz• 16 years ago

Older brother- I have a few questions-about- Scarcity.

"why would you care about any individual woman if you have access to a lot of them?" Why not? This question makes me think of a completely faithless relationship filled with cheating and manipulation just because caring is not an issue.

I understand your social proof point, and I know quite well how you deal with everything: "I just acted naturally, without tweaking", but I find this statement misplaced, "It’s more honest, and non-manipulative, which is something I think we could all strive for." for why would one strive for non-manipulation and honestly when one can get any girl without them -when there are just so many fish in the sea.

Other than that, I enjoyed the post =]

Oh, and by the way, next time you argue one of my philosophies, I'm going to quote you. I tend to describe myself as philosophically immature for good reason.

dnsworks9• 16 years ago

You got a contract, and a low-paying one at that. This was worth a blog posting?

All of these "How I did so and so" blog postings explaining basic life operations are getting annoying. Look forward to my next blog posting "How I Bought Some Organic Groceries While Only Walking A Block And A Half"

How I Landed A $50/hr Side Gig With Little Effort

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