Off the Grid, but Still Online

http://motherboard.vice.com/read/off-the-grid-but-still-online

356 159 11 years ago

motherboard.vice.com

Joey Hess is a developer in rural Tennessee with similar problems that we city folk don't have to think of (running everything off a 12V DC battery, collecting your own water). http://joeyh.name/blog/entry/notes_for_a_caretaker/ is a good place to start for some of the things that need to be taken care of.

Adaptive• 11 years ago

Came in to this post thinking of Joey as well. I use multiple utilities he's written. All on a small laptop and solar power. I don't know how much has changed since '12, but there is a nice summary of his infrastructure here: https://usesthis.com/interviews/joey.hess/

comrh4• 11 years ago

If it doesn't have a keyboard, I feel that my thoughts are being forced out through a straw.

Wow I've been feeling this exactly but never had such a good description. Great interview, thanks for posting.

mlwarren2• 11 years ago

He mentions that his home server and internet gateway is a Sheevaplug with a wireless dongle and dialup modem. Presumably he doesn't have a landline where he lives. Can anyone comment on getting dialup access via a cell phone connection? Is that one way his setup could work?

bithush2• 11 years ago

Like Joey I hate fans in my machines. I am a long term ThinkPad user. My main machine is still a T420s (the s model is a bit lighter than the regular T420) however I would love something like the Yoga 3 Pro but with a ThinkPad design. The Core-M is fine for my local computing needs the only thing lacking from the Yoga 3 Pro is a TrackPoint as I can't stand touchpads.

My ideal machine would be something along the lines of - fanless Intel CPU, 14" 1080p or better IPS display, excellent backlit keyboard with TrackPoint, 12+ hour battery life for 60% screen brightness and wifi, 3+ USB ports, 512+GB fastest local storage possible (so PCIe x4/M.2 or something). I don't care for anything else although I would take an HDMI or DP out and Bluetooth if possible :)

maresca• 11 years ago

Every time I read about living off the grid, I think about Ted Carns. He's done incredible things in off-grid living. If you've never heard of him, check out this documentary:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUxmikfS2LI

segmondy• 11 years ago

What's really the big deal? Folks have been living like this for much of mankind and million of folks still do around the world. First world amusement if you ask me.

irl_zebra• 11 years ago

It's pretty unlike anything I have ever experienced as someone born and raised in the developed world. Despite what people have done for much of mankind, it is still fascinating to me, whether that makes it first world amusement or not.

ctdonath3• 11 years ago

Not with running drinking water, 100Mbps networking, multi-GHz processing, instant temperature adjustment, and so many calories society's biggest problem is obesity. Most of "our poorest" are still in the world's 80th percentile of income/wealth.

s73v3r3• 11 years ago

Wealth is relative to where you are.

erikpukinskis• 11 years ago

Do you really think the poorest people in your city are better off than people making an equivalent dollar amount in poorer countries?

detaro• 11 years ago

What's wrong with amusement? / Why does everything have to be a big deal?

ctdonath3• 11 years ago

Don't underestimate how much effort and devotion to the lifestyle it takes. Most of us just want a "turnkey" lifestyle, buying whatever on a whim and expecting it to just work (plug-in gadgets, packaged foods), with even our "staples" coming in such perfect condition (box of nails from Home Depot, beautiful fruits at Whole Foods, etc.). To the contrary, off-the-grid requires devotion to the act of surviving from basics, and integrating technology therein takes additional effort/patience/tolerance. It can certainly be internalized to the point of being "normal" and "comfortable", but still requires that focus - not sleeping in, driving to work, then grabbing a frozen pizza on the way home 'cuz you didn't have time to maintain the garden.

I rant on this because of a taste this weekend, trying with mixed-to-poor results to get my BioLite Camp Stove (otherwise highly recommended) burning a good fire suitable for charging electronics via its built-in thermocouple generator (using the compact solar panels was pointless given cloud cover), and even now a separate solar self-charging battery is sitting on top of my car recouping from the draining usage on the trip (oops, left something on).

I grew up in a semi-self-sufficient family, growing food and heating with wood et al. Seemed easyish then, but in retrospect my folks put a LOT of work into making it work smoothly. Going completely off-grid and still staying connected does seem a desirable state (a la "first world amusement" and "TEOTWAKI prepared"), but yikes it's a lot of work - moreso if your immediate companions aren't wholly devoted as well.

Johnny555• 11 years ago

I looked at that same stove and decided it's not worth the effort -- they claim 2W sustained power, which is a bit less than a standard 500mA USB computer port can provide. At that rate, it would take hours to charge a phone, and I don't want to tend a fire for hours.

So instead I bring along a 5000MaH battery pack (weight is around 5 ounces), and a 15W folding solar panel that generates enough power to charge even on overcast days (though certainly much less than 15W). (the solar panel is not light, it's around 1.5lbs)

derefr• 11 years ago

It can certainly be internalized to the point of being "normal" and "comfortable", but still requires that focus

I would argue that there's a feedback loop in this particular case between the requirement of such effort, and the ability to generate it. The same sort of flow-state you get from e.g. playing Minecraft, also exists in the real-world equivalent of survivalist bootstrapping. Our brains were evolved to be stimulated by the survival tasks of our ancestral environments: moreso foraging and hunting than farming, but even farming still comes with very natural-to-us acts like crafting tools, clearing land, building shelter, herding animals, etc.

I think a lot of the dissonance between the modern values of convenience and efficiency/laziness, and the agricultural-era idea of a "work ethic", was simply that certain kinds of things that are "a LOT of work" just feel natural to humans, in ways where they're still work (and drudgery, at that, sometimes), but not nearly as draining to one's long-term motivation as modern "abstract" work is. Nobody ever got suffered from "burn-out" making nails to build their own house—which is amazing when you think about the level of toil involved. The sheer direct intuitiveness of the goal being pursued—make exactly enough nails to get a roof over one's head and keep out the cold—overrides a lot of the the feeling of repetitiveness of the base-level action.

(A dystopia belonging in an SMBC comic: a nail factory that used to be staffed with robots, but which is now staffed with humans wearing VR goggles having the times of their lives making nails because they believe they're doing it for direct survival reasons. Then the nails are used to build the crappy box-like apartments they pay for with their wages and go home to.)

romaniv• 11 years ago

Great comment. I would like to add that there is a world of difference between drudgery of tactile work and drudgery in office work.

Tactile work is more engaging and less stressful. It does not require constant multitasking or context switching. You concentrate. You also build up a certain skill at it, which allows you to feel good about what you're doing. (I.e. you go from just making nails to making good mails quickly.)

In many ways I find low-level manual tasks to feel more like "creative" office work.

shostack2• 11 years ago

While not a developer, I do spend more or less my entire day staring at one or more screens.

My home has a yard that needs to be completely re-landscaped, and the manual labor for that has been such a rewarding and peaceful activity for me which speaks a lot to your point.

That said, I realized while buying supplies to build a wooden raised bed this past weekend that basic things like "screwing some boards together to build a raised bed" almost seems like an overwhelming task when I first approach it. I was stunned by this because when I was a teenager I was very crafty and always tinkered with things and would have thought nothing of this.

The only thing I can think of is that in this day and age of everything being simplified to a few mouse clicks or screen taps, everything else becomes a monumental chore by comparison.

In any event, I have my parts, and now I'm excited to put them together. And I even get to indulge the digital side of me as well by modeling out my yard in SketchUp so I can make sure I like the layout before I build things.

I'd also note that something as stupid simple as "putting in a path," once you learn how to do it, is incredibly rewarding to see with the finished product. I never felt that digging dirt was stressful--just a good workout. And the end result is something that gives me a nice sense of satisfaction every time I look at it.

dnr• 11 years ago

Definitely agreed.

The greatest flow state I ever had was building a "raft" out of small logs and lots of cord on a rest day on a backpacking trip. It took hours to gather wood of the right size, break apart the pieces that were too big, scrounge around for all the cord I could find in my gear, arrange the wood in a sensible way, and tie it all together. During all that time I was so focused on the task that I don't think an unrelated thought even entered my head.

It was completely useless: I had nothing to use the raft for, except to swim out a little farther into the lake than I could by myself. The raft didn't even work very well! And yet building it was tremendously satisfying. I can only imagine the satisfaction one might get from a task of similar complexity, but that's essential to one's survival!

sliverstorm4• 11 years ago

It's not just about effort, but time as well. "Turnkey" convenience gives you time to spend on other things. For example, the more time I spend surviving on the basics, the less time I can invest in the charity I volunteer with.

copsarebastards• 11 years ago

I rant on this because of a taste this weekend, trying with mixed-to-poor results to get my BioLite Camp Stove (otherwise highly recommended) burning a good fire suitable for charging electronics via its built-in thermocouple generator (using the compact solar panels was pointless given cloud cover), and even now a separate solar self-charging battery is sitting on top of my car recouping from the draining usage on the trip (oops, left something on).

Yeah, this is the problem with trying to adopt new technologies. I like the idea of BioLite (and I have one) but it's just not a mature enough tech to support a lifestyle. I met the BioLite guys and they seem pretty proficient at using it to power their devices and cook, but I haven't been able to make it work with my routine.

For when I'm traveling via automobile, I've got a Honda 2000i Inverter Generator and a portable propane grill which do all of what the BioLite does and more. They're larger and less environmentally friendly, but they always work easily, and that's important.

When I'm hiking I use a JetBoil and having my phone in airplane mode most of the time usually gets me from outlet to outlet without problems.

coldtea• 11 years ago

To the contrary, off-the-grid requires devotion to the act of surviving from basics, and integrating technology therein takes additional effort/patience/tolerance.

This kind of off-the-grid described in the article isn't far from standard everyday life amenities 4-6 decades ago...

codingdave4• 11 years ago

There are also middle grounds you can take. I, and other people in my area, live on homesteads, doing our organic / permaculture farming thing, growing our own food, expanding our solar arrays... while also having a good internet connection and a grid-tie so we can do our coding day jobs for part of the day, pay our bills, then shut down and spend the rest of our time in a more disconnected state. I wish I could disconnect more, but I'm not quite there yet.

What is important is to recognize that choices exist. You do not need to work long hours on the office campus of a tech company who feeds you 2 meals a day and expects your life to be dedicated to your "work". You also do not need to live in a VW bus with a laptop on a solar panel. There is a spectrum of choices, with different people finding their ideal life at different points.

As in many things in life, making a conscious choice to follow your own path is best.

zardo• 11 years ago

That sounds like an interesting communinity, where do you live?

codingdave4• 11 years ago

Central Utah - quite a few small family/hobby farms, but also I-15 comes down through Salt Lake and Provo, so there is a strand of civilization (jobs, people, etc) along the interstate south of Provo that makes the small towns be a little more suburban than you might expect. And many of us have quite decent internet connectivity - my town in particular has its own municipal network, currently at 120MB, and they are upgrading to gigabit fiber over the next few years.

tcdent• 11 years ago

Do you have anything published? I get really excited when I see crossover into this community.

I'm in the early stages of my transition; the mentality is solidly there, still working on infrastructure and tools, and money.

codingdave4• 11 years ago

Not that I am prepared to share in a public forum like this. We do keep a blog to share our lives with family and friends, but we don't really write it up for the general public.

I'm about to sign off for the day, but I'll try to drop you a line later tonight so you can get in touch. We do like connecting with kindred spirits.

marricks3• 11 years ago

Do you have any more info on this type of existence or communities which have this?

As a vegan, programmer, and someone very interested in leaving in nature and off the grid this sound like a sort of unicorn heavenly existence that only existed in 21st century fairy tales.

tacostakohashi• 11 years ago

I think you might mean "tales".

pbhjpbhj• 11 years ago

You probably want to look at "intentional community" - the general name given to [small] communities established around common interests, predominantly involving an element of permaculture (see eg permies.com).

donthaveacow2• 11 years ago

I'm rboyd's fiance and we're vegan too! :) I started a blog at girlvsgrid.com so you can see we're fun people. Please move here! haha

rboyd2• 11 years ago

My fiance and I left Chicago (and $1700/mo) in July for this kind of middle ground. I cross-referenced national fiber optic rollout with low population/rural areas and we found a few acres with 1gbps FTTH in the Lake of the Ozarks area. Our place came with an existing 2 bedroom home with existing private well and electric, all-in we bought for under 2 years worth of Chicago rent.

Our home is/was a bit of a fixer-upper, and it's harder to get help with labor here (it exists, but it's expensive). But one thing I've noticed is that learning plumbing/construction/mechanics has been way easier than learning software. You definitely sweat more though.

Turn-key housing here exists too, it just comes at more of a premium. Also, your social life is obviously impacted. You're probably well-advised to already have a family or s/o (or just are comfortable being alone).

All told, I think this is a great option if you're feeling trapped in your career but have stockpiled some cash. It probably doesn't require near as much money as you might think to make the jump.

For us it's exactly what we needed to focus on our startups without going the traditional VC route. We'd love to see more people going this route. Let me know if I can help.

robabby• 11 years ago

Very inspiring. My wife and I are in northern Chicago suburb of Highwood, and we really aspire to move out west to a more nature-centric style of living. I like how one of the core parameters to your search was Fiber optic internet, and then spread from there. Where did you start your search?

cpursley• 11 years ago

The Ozarks are beautiful; they took me by surprise. There's many places like this throughout the USA. I don't understand the appeal of living in an expense shoebox in a concrete metropolis.

Another place that's got a high quality of life for low cost of living is St. Augustine, Florida. It's an architecturally significant city with several colleges, great art scene, wide beaches.

jrs235• 11 years ago

We still have the colder winters (join a curling club to make the winters go faster if you don't like outdoor winter sports) but the outdoors are beautiful and great for activities. La Crosse, WI is only two and half hours from Minneapolis/St Paul and two hours from Madison, WI. The area is excellent to raise a family and much less expensive than the larger metro areas. They are slowly starting to roll out fiber too. Although, we're not really off the grid.

https://www.centurylink.com/fiber/

dmm• 11 years ago

Lake of the Ozarks? That's so cool! I'm in California MO a little north of there. We should be friends!

You said you had a few acres. Are you planning a garden for the spring?

swang• 11 years ago

Do you still have the data in regards to fiber rollout / low population? Is it just Chicago? Interested in this but somewhere more on the west coast.

bro-stick2• 11 years ago

I've lived in a VW Westy for about 5 years, and think about building a yurt or micro-house.

Folks should be free to use their imaginations and what's around them to make their own practical way. It doesn't have to be expensive, conventional or a work of art to be your own.

Check these out:

Castle on Wheels https://youtu.be/CnHGKUh-5O4

Floating, movable island http://dornob.com/recycled-paradise-amazing-man-made-floatin...

tedks• 11 years ago

As in many things in life, making a conscious choice to follow your own path is best.

If you've made a conscious choice to follow your own path, why is the path you've found so similar to others?

It's hilarious when non-conformists end up conforming even more.

seestheday• 11 years ago

Do you have kids? I would love to move out to the country but I'm really worried about impacting my kids ability to develop skills and build a business/social network.

My parents moved out to a very small town from Toronto, Ontario when I was small. There was nothing for me there when I grew up, and all of the friends I had that stayed in the area are struggling. I went away to school and never really returned. I found that I was at a real disadvantage by having zero network and no relevant job skills pre-university. I've since made up for it and am doing quite well now, but I have 2 kids and them going to a good school is very important to me. I always wonder how people do it well, so I'm looking for information.

timmaah4• 11 years ago

I've held an 8-4 developer job the last 3 years and hit up 36 different states. Right now I'm chilling at a most peaceful National Forest Campground in eastern Kentucky.

http://www.watsonswander.com/assets/2015/10/IMG_6288.jpg

comrh4• 11 years ago

Did you save to make the trip or are you still working during (or both)? Were you an RVer before hand? Are you doing it alone?

So many questions, I always thought this was an interesting avenue to take when considering "working remotely".

timmaah4• 11 years ago

Still working and saving a good amount of $$. A developer job that likes me around during normal business hours. So it is a pretty normal existence in that respect.

Just a tent camper and when we left I had never towed anything before. We were prepared and knew what to expect so had no real surprises.

Not alone. I'm married. She does a mix of writing and editing and most of the day to day logistics.

whoiskevin• 11 years ago

Tim works full-time and lives full time from their RV. Check out the home page of the site and you will get the full story: http://www.watsonswander.com/

s73v3r3• 11 years ago

I almost did something like that. In the end, though, the other company offered just too much money.

ecobiker• 11 years ago

(Disclaimer: Slightly off-topic. Also, it's not my intention to belittle their lifestyle. I hope I don't come across that way.)

Some of the things they need even in this disconnected lifestyle - like the mobile home, laptops, books, solar panels, batteries and even the slippers have to be made by someone doing a 9-5 job somewhere. The idea of civilization to me is to take advantage of these specialists who are really good at doing or manufacturing some of the things I need and in turn I become a specialist in something (probably one thing) which I contribute back to the society - it's a barter. That I don't have to do all the things I need to do to survive, seems efficient and effective. Also, not all of the jobs are going to be able to afford this "luxury".

sliverstorm4• 11 years ago

There is definitely an irony to people who make a show of disconnecting, but do so on the largess of society. In this piece, the guy who gets free electricity and shelter from his friend's shed. Or what I used to run into frequently, the rebel wanderer who eschews The System and couch surfs at the houses of his office worker friends.

I don't mind people who want to disconnect, but when you've got a campstove, a phone, a laptop, photovoltaic panels, a car... you're still enjoying the fruits of progress & society with the rest of us.

comrh4• 11 years ago

I think the mindset is more "bring the parts you like, leave the parts you don't." I know there are some hypocritical people (especially the Anarcho-primitivism people) that have romanticized ideas but the people in this article at least just seem to like it and aren't trying to avoid all progress or society.

bmj2• 11 years ago

So in order to "disconnect" you need to leave everything behind, go into the woods, and make everything from scratch?

OneOneOneOne2• 11 years ago

Right on. When considering lifestyle choices I ask myself how many people could live the same way. If it turns out to be a small minority before collapse, I reject it as a path for myself. To me off grid lifestyle seems a retreat from the goods of society without a commensurate benefit to self and others. As an art movement or experiment I say fine.

dougmwne• 11 years ago

I’m sure some of these off-grid philosophies don’t hold water when you put it like that. However, consider that many people out there have been dealt a bad hand by society. They’ll never have the options or opportunities that most of us posting here take for granted. “Doing your part for society” may work for most of us, but it’s not a one-size-fits-all solution. Some people out there are going to have more peaceful and productive existences living at the margins.

Retric3• 11 years ago

I suspect you could scale the 'off grid' lifestyle to around 1/2 the US population without many issues. Web + FedEx means a lot of jobs can be done remotely. Consider plenty of teachers work remotely even if most people think of it as a face to face job. Even some doctors have started to work remotely let alone the classic 9/5 office worker.

Sure, city's are a far more efficient use of land and energy, but at least in the US we still have a lot of open space.

PS: My only gripe is people think of this as a 'green' lifestyle. Generally, living in a city high-rise and using public transit is far better for the environment.

xaver• 11 years ago

Unless they've stolen the goods they're using, they're interacting with civilization/capitalism on its own terms. What more can you ask?

pointytrees• 11 years ago

I had already bookmarked this post because I love the idea. But your response is incredibly thought provoking.

I love the idea of moving to Alaska or Canada in the wilderness, and figuring out how to survive and stay connected.

I'm thinking on the fly, but I think I would be contributing to society. My specialty is web programming and software architecture. I'd even go so far as to call it an art form.

I encounter a problem. Sleep on it for a few days, then bam, things settle into place and I spend a couple days solid programming. Those days that I'm "sleeping on it" if I'm at work, I'm often distracted by day-to-day tasks that usually could have been handled by someone else.

I'm not sold on the concept one way or the other. I do like the idea of a middle-ground solution.

I really appreciate your counter-argument. Good to think about at least.

VLM2• 11 years ago

You can live disconnected, while still participating occasionally in the labor market.

Lifetime jobs at a single employer died in roughly my grandpa's generation. And I'm not that young. My father went into semi-retirement in the 90s and he RVed roughly all summer and due to lack of connectivity technology at that time, he only contracted in the winter unless it was an emergency (charged higher rate!). RV life is a lot simpler with a house and mailing address. I spent a lot of time in the 90s and 00s picking up my parent's mail and generally keeping an eye on their house, which wasn't so bad because they lived kinda between my house and my work at that time, once I had kids it was more of a hassle but I still made the time. I remember how creepy it was watching 9/11 coverage on their big TV when they were in some campground a thousand miles away, wondering if this is "the big one" and should they be packing up to come here or should I be packing up to join them?! Also when you get too old/sick you just move back into the house permanently, or take shorter RV trips anyway.

Anyway, in summary, a home base strategy with "far less than full time employment" works pretty well, and if you're going to have "far less than full time employment" you need to do something with your spare time between work, and some folks like to travel and camp in their extensive spare time. So you end up with people disconnected and wandering the earth, most of the time, yet occasionally slaving away 9-5. For my dad it was voluntary in a semi-retired state of being, but mere education and talent do not guarantee employment for anyone, so I'm sure for some its involuntary. I suspect most of humanity in the history of our species never had a job, or never had a 9-5 job, they had a life instead.

My grandfather never completely stopped working into his 80s... I don't have any elderly role model to show me how to retire and do nothing. Personally when I retire I'm going back for the chemistry degree I always wanted and who cares if there's no jobs... after all, I'm already retired!

grecy15• 11 years ago

You're absolutely right, but the point means nothing.

Capitalism says that if a person wants to work 100+ hours a week and drive a Porsche, they can.

If another person only wants to work 10 hours a week and walk everywhere, they can.

Simply because Porsche sell $200K+ cars, does not mean I'm obligated to work enough to pay for that.

have to be made by someone doing a 9-5 job somewhere

Actually, the person making those things could also have chosen to live a simpler life and only be working part time. It's their choice.

lovemenot• 11 years ago

Actually, the person making those things could also have chosen to live a simpler life and only be working part time. It's their choice.

I did not interpret the point you responded to the same way as you. It's not about that individual's choice, but about the necessity for some person to be producing those products under those working conditions, in order for the off-grid folks to be able to consume them.

For some people, there's an implicit hypocrisy in visibly "opting-out" of a lifestyle if your new lifestyle necessitates that others have to fill in behind you. For others, yourself included I guess, it's just a market and anything goes.

ChuckMcM• 11 years ago

There is an interesting consistency in all of these images, nobody has a chronic medical condition it seems.

VLM2• 11 years ago

They get the economic death penalty and the resulting homeless shelter isn't as cool looking as a 40 foot houseboat or a RV, so they're not covered in the story.

dualogy• 11 years ago

Go figure.. might be another perk of the lifestyle ;)

revelation• 11 years ago

If you understand "off the grid" to mean "off the electricity grid", I love this project of a guy who salvaged the battery out of a Tesla and uses it together with a 45kW solar panel system to live independently of the grid:

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7...

http://skie.net/uploads/landscaping-in-progress.jpg

Theres a 100+ page thread on the project here:

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/34531-Plan-Off...

grecy15• 11 years ago

If anyone is interested in this way of life, I suggest moving North. It's extremely beautiful and there are way less people.

I moved to the Yukon 4 years ago, and a massive number of people live in this way. I.e. work less, own less, have way more time and live how you want. Hunt, fish, grow your own food, chop your own wood, and you can live a great life only working 20-50% time.

Also there are hardly any rules up here, and they're very weakly enforced, so you can more or less do whatever you want and "the world" will leave you alone about it.

If you go to Alaska, stay out of the big cities. They're just the same as the ones down south, but with more drugs. The small communities have all the cool people.

Photos and stories from my Yukon/Alaska adventures are at http://theroadchoseme.com

idlewords• 11 years ago

How is the summer mosquito situation?

grecy15• 11 years ago

Sometimes there are almost none, sometimes they are plague proportions. When they're really bad you just wear long sleeves/pants and a head net and it's totally fine.

It's a bit like the cold (i.e. past -40 C/F) , you get used to it, and it pales in comparison to the beauty you are enjoying.

Luc• 11 years ago

Aw, I'm so jealous of the amount of grand nature in North America.

It seems out of the question for me on a EU passport to live long term in Canada. You're lucky!

grecy15• 11 years ago

I'm Australian, and have gone through ~7 years of paperwork to become an Canadian Permanent Resident. I have another ~5 years for citizenship, which I'm working towards because Canada really is that awesome :)

I'm sure there are places equally as stunning in the Northern European countries.

_delirium• 11 years ago

The northern part of the Scandinavian peninsula has some similarities to northern Canada, if you're looking for that but with an EU passport. Not as gigantic as the continent-sized Canadian north (only Russian Siberia competes there), but still pretty large and mostly empty. The "everyman's right" also makes it legal to travel/camp/forage essentially anywhere in the countryside, including on private land [1], as long as you avoid active farms and the immediate vicinity of people's houses.

[1] http://www.ym.fi/en-US/Latest_news/Publications/Brochures/Ev...

bch3• 11 years ago

Where in Yukon are you living ? I presume not in Whitehorse.

grecy15• 11 years ago

I have actually been living and working in Whitehorse for the last 4 years, as I wanted to save enough money to do something big again (going for 2+ years around Africa in my Jeep).

While Whitehorse is a city, I have world-class mountain biking from my backyard, and 20 minutes from town in any direction I have no cell reception and rarely see other people on the weekends. 3 hours from town we can be hundreds of kilometers from the nearest person.

Splendor• 11 years ago

Those wide-angle photos gave me a mild vertigo feeling.

lumberjack• 11 years ago

If you're using a gas generator you're not being off-grid. You still depend on society to provide you with gas. You are just being inefficient.

slaman• 11 years ago

Off the electrical grid ≠ independent of society.

ZeroGravitas• 11 years ago

We had this discussion the last time "off-grid" came up.

Some take it's meaning more literally, with grid meaning pipes or wires delivering services to your home.

So gas being piped into your generator would be on-grid, if it gets trucked in then that's off-grid. Electricity via wires is on-grid, electricity via a factory built solar cell or windmill is off-grid.

Others have a more poetic definition of "off-grid" as "self-sufficency" though it's hard to see where that ends, as there's no clear dividing line, even a child born in a remote rainforest tribe with no contact with the world will end up using tools and techniques passed on by local culture.

rza• 11 years ago

This might have been a good article had it not been for the pretentious, holier-than-thou introduction. Apparently enjoying the fruits of a modern life make you a mindless drone compared to the "contemporary fine artist" who lives on a boat or someone living in a forest re-inventing the wheel for every modern necessity.

neurohax• 11 years ago

I didn't perceive it as pretentious. In my opinion the problem is not enjoying the fruits of modern life, but letting others define for you what has or hasn't value, and living a life where the only goal is being perceived by others as "successful".

Its worse when you see someone preaching marxism like these hollywood actors and big bankers praising cuba, the che guevara and what not, yet fully enjoying the luxuries of capitalism.

ck2• 11 years ago

After the first story I was like, oh great, it's going to be all rednecks.

But then it got really interesting.

The tree dweller was like right out of a movie or something, that was amazing and noble people do that.

Great article.

jonpaine• 11 years ago

My wife and I quit our SF Bay Area jobs and traveled for a little over 2 years. We backpacked abroad, restored a VW Bus and drove it around the US, and explored the Bahamas on our sailboat.

One of my biggest takeaways from our trip - which I think is extremely relevant to the message here - is that my goal will never be to NOT work. Not ever - even in retirement. The consensus strategy of spending 40+ hours of every week of your life saving up so you can enjoy retirement is, to me, a broken model. We met so many people who followed that model only to realize they didn't have the health or energy to enjoy all that they had worked a lifetime for. It's heartbreaking.

Work is a GOOD thing. The preferred solution - and I realize this is a high bar that we're beyond fortunate to even consider(more on that at the end) - is to find something you're passionate about and you wake up every day wanting to do. Obviously that's the old cliche of just doing what you love, but it turns out I'm one of those dullards who has to learn some of the cliche life-pro-tips through experience to truly understand them.

I'm a solo founder on a business that's just entering private beta, so I know first-hand that there's an entirely different discussion about delayed gratification and working at an unsustainable pace in the short term to build something meaningful in the long term... and that gets complicated. There's no rule of thumb that I know of.

I could write a book about this discussion, but in sum: I LOVE codingdave's comment, because he used two words that my wife and I ALWAYS use when discussing this: "conscious" and "choices". These words came up in every discussion we had on our travels when the topic came up. The people we met out there didn't get there by accident. They get there because they made choices. They lived below their means. They saved. They learned new skills. They took leaps of faith. VERY few of them were wealthy.

When we talk about this, I usually start to say that everything in life is a choice; that we ALWAYS have choices, but the sad reality is that isn't true for most people. I won't turn this into a political discussion, but will simply say that it would be amazing to live in a world where even the poorest of the poor have palatable choices that they can realistically make. In our current world, those of us who ARE fortunate enough to have some palatable choices can work towards making that a reality. For those that would call that a pipe-dream, there are easily identifiable challenges like affordable childcare that are super-realistic and would go a long way in the right direction. There are amazing organizations already doing great work in that sphere.

My business is somewhat tied to this topic. It's mentioned in my comment history.

PS: A grandfathered unlimited 4g plan and a cradlepoint is GOLD on the road. :)

bro-stick2• 11 years ago

Good to know I'm not the only one living in a Veedub.

I live in 85 westy that just recently passed smog after having to change the cat. BAR CAP repairs are a huge PITA and shops feel obliged to rip you and the state off with unnecessary repairs. You're better off paying cash to the esses in east San Jose to make it "pass."

arca_vorago• 11 years ago

"The people I’ve met have abandoned the chase of the American Dream; they are not battling traffic to work a nine-to-five job in order to live in a big house or buy a fancy car. Instead, their values are centered around new life experiences, connecting with nature, building their own homes, growing their own food, and having a full sense of control over their lives—including managing the amount of time they spend on the internet. "

For me, the latter is the American dream, not the former. I grew up with grandparents who came from farmers, loggers, and cowboys (actually driving cattle across states back before fences were all over), and I grew up hearing stories about the great depression and living in environments where things learned during it were preserved, and it was a way of life where owning land, even a small bit, was what gave you freedom. It was a way of life that encouraged self-sufficiency and survival skills. That way of life is under threat and much less tenable as civilization grows.

Let me give some examples: my great-great-uncle, always stressed to me the importance of water, and would scold me for wasting it. He lived through the depression and the dustbowl as a child, and even though he only had 10 acres, he had two wells and 5 rain-water collection barrels, (and about 7 of those acres were always growing some sort of food). I live in the city, and now have a house with 1.5acres, which is plenty for collection, so I was looking at getting a rain barrel. Well, come to find out, rain barrels are illegal in the city. So are chickens. Oh, and solar panels have all kinds of strange rules and laws attached to leases or the local eleco refuses to payback normal rates.

The point is that as urban areas expand, the decentralization of energy, food, and other resources is what can help contribute to self-sufficiency, but the local laws are often an impediment to this structure. In my example, I can perhaps understand the justification for a ban on city-chickens, but the arguments against rain-barrels or proper solar encouragement are a travesty to me.

The only way to get this sort of thing these days is to actually get a good property outside city limits.

Also, there is one other thing: property taxes. Before 1916, once you owned land, if you could grow food and had water that could be all you need (especially if you had good rock/timber sources for building). These days though, property taxes are so high in many regions that people who could otherwise be just fine off-grid end up forced semi-on-grid just to make enough to pay property taxes. (and I especially hear about this for the larger properties that used to be homestead land but have changed hands and no longer fall under those protections, so 100-1000 acres ends up super expensive, but a small plot is not so bad.

Just giving some extra perspective, and also, I would like to point out that there is quite a difference in the type of off-grid living depending on the area. I have spent time in remote locations in the rockies, and out in Cali, and the culture of the Cali off-griders is much more eclectic and hipsterish, compared to even desert dwellers in New Mexico, and then there are the Alaskans and Canadians up in the big expanses. I also consider this kind of living and attitude to be a key component of the "Western" attitude that many other people, especially from the city, just don't understand the level of freedom it can provide and how that freedom can change a person.

I have spent way too much of my time looking for land in the remotest of places, (even in boat/plane only spots) and I hope one day I find the right one. If you are wondering, the main areas left are New Mexico, Texas, Arizona, Montana/Wyoming, Alaska and Canada. (I don't count Cali because I feel there are hardly any actually remote locations left, same for Colorado, it has wilderness but the pop is exploding so every mining claim and nook and cranny has an off-grider.) A big secret most don't know about is that the best land is land adjacent to national forests, (I got spoiled by growing up in such a place) or the golden find is the rare grandfathered land surrounded by national forest. There are islands but I'm a mountains guy, and when the meteor/asteroid hits and destroys the coastal regions I want to be high and dry.

xacaxulu• 11 years ago

For remote workers within the United States, this is one of the best ways to perform currency arbitrage. Work for company in high cost area, live in low cost area. If you really want to go down the rabbit hole, go work remotely from Mexico for a couple months. I put away a few grand in savings while living extremely well and meeting amazing people while working remotely in Mexico for a company in Chicago.

Mz• 11 years ago

I have been sleeping in a tent for over three years. I go to a library to plug in. I don't have cooking capacity and I get hot meals from eateries. I self identify as homeless and I am fairly poor, but it was a choice. I walked away from a corporate job that was helping to keep me sick. This lifestyle is helping me get well.

There is no heat or electricity in my humble abode. We adjust amount of bedding and other details, depending on weather.

It has been an interesting experience. I want a house again, but I can imagine it being something small and simple with few amenities compared to most conventional housing.

I am still trying to work out those details. But very much enjoyed this article and posted a link to it on my homeless blog.

jqm• 11 years ago

I live on a few acres about 15 miles outside a small town in rural New Mexico. The closest big cities are 3 hours away and those cities aren't actually very big. We (SO and I) grow a nice garden and have a well, but go into town for work. Initially I had intended to work from home but it became entirely too isolated. When I caught myself going outside to have a conversation with the chickens I realized it was time for a change, and I wound up leasing an office.

There is much positive about living simply and remotely.

Now the negative: You might want to go to a decent restaurant at some point. Also, intelligent conversation is a rarity. The folks you meet and deal with in rural settings often have stunted world views and not much ambition. That, in my experience, is the biggest problem with going (in this case only partially) "off-grid" in a remote area.

talsraviv3• 11 years ago

The comments here are really thought provoking. I feel like I'm missing something - is there some kind of unmentioned catch, like don't get sick, or you have to have really good workers/health/disability insurance - to make this work safely long term?

I love the contrarian thinking but want to make sure I'm accounting for legitimate cases my young mind might not conceive of. Or am I overthinking it?

grecy15• 11 years ago

is there some kind of unmentioned catch

Speaking from experience, the catch is you won't get to live the life of convenience and luxury that marketing has been pushing down your throat for the last 20+ years.

When you work less, you have less money, which means you spend less money, which means you often do things for yourself. Oil changes can be dirty, chopping wood can be hard work, and canning vegetables is a loooong process.

If you are afraid of hard work and want life to be "easy", by all means keep going to work and simply pay for everything. On the other hand, hard work is extremely rewarding, especially when it's for your own survival.

It's a choice, you're free to make it either way you want. I wish more people knew it was a choice they can make.

talsraviv3• 11 years ago

That part I'm sold on. I'm wondering about, as another comment mentioned, what happens if you discover one day you're not self sufficient, even temporarily (significant illness, chronic illness, major injury - or something I'm not considering). If I don't want to be a burden on anyone on the grid, but don't want to depend on social services, how do I factor that in?

christiangenco• 11 years ago

Oh hey, my wife and I just started doing this kind of thing.

We bought a 2002 23-foot RV for $15k and renovated it to nicer furnishings than our $1.2k/month apartment near Dallas where she was working.

Now we live in it full time! We're only a month in, but it's been a blast, and something I can see doing for the foreseeable future. Every new city we visit we can explore at our own pace, while spending less than we would be living back home, and living in much more beautiful areas (I'm writing from an RV park near Lake Placid a five minute walk from the coolest waterfall I've ever seen).

When you can work remotely, there's not a lot of reasons to stay in one place.

My wife blogs about it at http://gogo.gen.co

bproctor• 11 years ago

Wow, that's awesome! My wife and I just recently did the same thing. We are 3 months in and really loving it. Currently in Carson City, NV.

welder• 11 years ago

Reminds me of this guy who built a house with nothing but primitive materials:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P73REgj-3UE

pjc50• 11 years ago

Last month I visited Peru. One of the many things I saw there was the floating islands of Lake Titicaca; giant reed rafts that are essentially a houseboat community. It's a lifestyle on the intersection between genuine traditional existence, rural poverty, and roleplaying one's own history for tourist dollars.

One of the islanders let us see inside her house; a straw construction maybe 1m by 2m. And in the corner was a car battery powering a black and white CRT TV, powered by the solar panel on the roof.

(I could probably also talk about crofting in Scotland, a similar kind of remote lifestyle)

Off the Grid, but Still Online

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