Mecca Then and Now – 128 Years of Growth

http://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2015/09/mecca-then-and-now-128-years-of-growth/408013/?single_page=true

by vinnyglennon • 11 years ago

141 80 11 years ago

dragansah• 11 years ago

The comments below the article are very interesting especially the ones about destroying the ottoman heritage.

Someone should pay more attention to preserving old heritage sites and historical structures in Mecca. The boorish Saudi Royal family is turning this into a religious disneyland. What shame.

po1nter• 11 years ago

There is a Wikipedia article[1] about these destruction of old monuments.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_early_Islamic_h...

1024core• 11 years ago

The boorish Saudi Royal family is turning this into a religious disneyland.

My guess is that they're doing it to put a Wahabbi stamp on things and erase everything else.

Gibbon1• 11 years ago

The Wahabbi/Salifists see destroying all that old stuff as a feature not a bug.

xsace4• 11 years ago

While a cool and nicely illustrated article, I fail to see how it's relevant to HN.

josephpmay• 11 years ago

The HN guidelines allow for articles of general interest to the community, which this falls under.

DanBC2• 11 years ago

Just out of interest: what do you think is on-topic for HN?

Also, from the guidelines.

On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity.

xsace4• 11 years ago

Well you just said it: "Anything that good hackers would find interesting" and not "Anything that anyone would find interesting".

IanDrake• 11 years ago

For me HN is about keeping up with the present and seeing into the future.

The future is a trend line drawn from the past through the present and projected forward in time.

Now look at this article again and project the role of Islamic power and culture into the future. Scary shit if you ask me.

meric• 11 years ago

Amazing city. It's unfortunate the Ajyad Fortress (1) had to be demolished to make way for the tower with the largest clock face in the world (2). I also note every time I visited a devout Muslim's small business or home, and they have a picture of the Grand Mosque, it's free of the new modern additions that will facilitate two million (and growing) pilgrims who visit every year. I suppose the Saudi government didn't care much for past heritage and tradition because, for muslims, Islam is the religion for the present, and the future.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajyad_Fortress

2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraj_Al_Bait

_petronius• 11 years ago

A certain amount of almost Byzantine-style iconoclasm seems to be a feature of Wahabbism[1] in particular, rather than Islam as a whole.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabism#Shi.27a_criticism

wtbob• 11 years ago

Note that the Byzantine iconoclasts were heavily influenced by the very early Mohammedan conquests, which rather tends to support the Wahabbists' claims to be the original Islam.

mnazim• 11 years ago

Quran and Hadith, devoid of their historical context, leave them open to application as required, to safeguard the interests of the ruling elite. It's all about power and organised religion is one of the most potent tool to keep masses in check.

insulanian2• 11 years ago

for muslims, Islam is the religion for the present, and the future.

Well said.

exodust2• 11 years ago

Why is it well said? The same could be said for any religion. Committed followers and believers, praying right now for this life and the next.

Besides, reflection of the past is a crucial component of Islam. The pilgrims re-enact rituals from thousands of years ago. You might even say, without faith in ancient stories interpreted from ancient books, there would be no annual pilgrimage to Mecca.

It seems to me the slogan "Islam is the religion for present and future" is designed to explain the giant shopping mall clock, more than any insight or true reflection about Islam.

bane• 11 years ago

Perhaps somebody here knows, why are tents still used at the midway point in Mina? It seems that permanent structures and infrastructure would do a more efficient job of housing all the pilgrims. Is it tradition or a religious requirement of some sort?

raihansaputra• 11 years ago

afaik, it's because Mina is only populated during the Hajj and the temporary structures are deemed enough, while the other structures (additional lanes for the stone throwing, the tunnel or additional levels in the Grand Mosque) are either necessary or still usable outside of Hajj season.

theklub• 11 years ago

It looks like they are building as fast as they can to be honest. I'm sure its only a matter of time.

tdees40• 11 years ago

Mecca seems like a pretty fascinating place. It's a terrible shame non-Muslims are banned.

petepete• 11 years ago

I don't think the Saudi tourist board need any more help.

notNow4• 11 years ago

Nothing to see there. Not long even Muslims get bored there. Wahabis are not really big on history and artifacts. If you think that this is some kind of an open air museum, think again.

rikacomet3• 11 years ago

It is not a place of entertainment or sight-seeing. Hajj is a Farz for Muslims. Anyone who enter's Mecca ought to do so with the thought of his Lord on him, seeking redemption and forgiveness.

Or Would you worship your Lord only if it is 'entertaining to you'?

bluedevil2k• 11 years ago

These are legitimate questions - how do they know who is Muslim and who is not Muslim? Do they check before you get to the camps?

_xnmw• 11 years ago

There is practically no enforcement of the rule. There are highway signs on the way to Mecca, and that's about it. Unless you do something clearly unislamic in public, like drink alcohol, in which case you will get arrested regardless of whether you are Muslim.

digi_owl• 11 years ago

To be a bit facile: circumcision.

thewarrior• 11 years ago

That clock tower and hotel are an abomination and in bad taste.It's as if someone decided to put a Las Vegas style Casino style building right next to the Vatican.

spacecowboy_lon2• 11 years ago

I know I used to work for Dar Al Handasha (who designed that clock tower) and even as a non mulslim I think its a shocking way to treat they holy places.

Alex3917• 11 years ago

In the west we do the same thing, e.g. just look at Niagra falls.

dantheman• 11 years ago

Las Vegas style casinos have more class than that building, it's truly terrible.

riffraff• 11 years ago

to be fair, someone did decide to put a new design right thing next to the Vatican, and Via della Conciliazione[0] is widely criticized.

(Yet, nowhere as bad as the clock tower, I would say).

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Via_della_Conciliazione

rikacomet3• 11 years ago

Islamic Perspective in Rough (need citation):

Prophet Adam (Peace be upon Him) created the first House of Worship at Kaaba.

During the time of Prophet Nuh (Noah) (Peace be Upon Him), it was in one sense, 'lost'.

Then Prophet Ibrahim (Abraham) 'the true' and Prophet Ismail (?) (Peace be Upon them) rebuilt the Kabba again.

Again and Again, Kabba and Mecca with it, were lost (to what?)

Until At last, Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) cleaned it for the last time. Removing the 360+ idols placed within.

A interesting story, just Before the time of Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) is that a certain king vowed to destroy the Kaaba, and plunder the city of Mecca. To which he was roughly told 'The Owner of this House is well capable of protecting it'. The Army of that King was killed by a hailstorm of stones carried by countless birds, a sign for those who believe.

jdmichal• 11 years ago

To fill in your (?), I believe Ismail would be otherwise known as Ishmael:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishmael

exodust2• 11 years ago

Suggestion: 'Peace Be Upon Him' => 'PBUH'

chroma• 11 years ago

Your username looked familiar. I finally figured out where I'd seen it. Earlier this year, we both commented on an article about the Charlie Hebdo massacre.[1][2] You said, "I think both parties were at wrong here." and, "…the level of Satire in question here, was perhaps too much."[3]

I recall being utterly astonished by your comment. People were murdered for drawing cartoons and you insinuate that it was partially their fault. Shame on you.

1. HN thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8879215

2. My comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8879389

3. rikacomet's comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8879528

tboyd472• 11 years ago

One thing I like to reflect on when seeing this pictures is the vast difference in the number of people present at the hajj. It's truly orders of magnitude more.

This huge increase in pilgrims over the last century is because of new technology like air travel, and the peace the world has experienced over the past few decades that allows people to move freely across the world. But it is due to the efforts of the Saudis to expand the masjid, build camps at Mina, allow hotels to be constructed, modernize the facilities, etc. that every person is able to actually perform the rites of hajj at the proper times. Hajj consists of a number of rites that have to be performed in certain places at certain times on certain days. Think about what it takes to organize millions of people trying to do this. It's very different than organizing thousands, or tens of thousands. You have to accommodate all their sleeping arrangements. You have to provide enough space for marketplaces so they can get something to eat. You have to widen the roads, air condition the facilities, make sure each group leaves at their own time, etc.

It's true that the Saudis aren't perfect, and they make mistakes, but my point is that it's easy to get the impression from the massive construction projects that they are just trying to make another Dubai or Olympics. But really, there is a spiritual purpose behind it, not connected to money, and there is also a lot going on behind the scenes that you can't see in the pictures. It would be easier for the Saudis to just restrict the visas to a tiny fraction and not go through with all of the construction and organizing, but they are making the effort as you can see. I know this is not going to be a popular comment here but I'm just trying to offset all the negative comments with some positive.

JoeAltmaier3• 11 years ago

Wait ... "Not connected to money"?! How is this different from building a movie theatre complex, or Disneyland? Why would we imagine its not all about profit at root? I'm not that generous.

tboyd472• 11 years ago

Hajj visas are very restrictive. You aren't allowed to go anywhere except Mecca and Medina, and you're only allowed to stay for the length of hajj plus a few days extra for travel. And many of the people who go to hajj have spent their life's savings just to get there. So not a lot of foreign money is flowing, at least not compared to those other places.

niyazpk• 11 years ago

Not going to compare to disneyland, but compared to many other religious places, for example, there is no way to donate money for the cause of Hajj anywhere in Mecca or Medina. The government does not ask for your money, nor does it encourage you to donate money at the mosques. Say what you want about the Saudis, Hajj is not seen from a pure profitability standpoint as far as I can see.

yawz3• 11 years ago

"not connected to money..."

Kaaba has always been about trade/commerce/money, since well before Muhammad and Islam.

It is not a coincidence that Muhammad's tribe had the control of Kaaba where pagan pilgrims came before Islam to revere their many gods (whose representations (statues, icons, figures, etc.) were placed around Kaaba). And, very conveniently, it remained to be a holy place in Islam where each and every Muslim who can afford it must visit at least once during their lifetime.

azth3• 11 years ago

The Ka'bah was (re-)built by Abraham and his son, who were Muslims (i.e. Submitters). The fact that there was polytheistic practices around it at some point in time does not change the fact that it is a place of worship for Muslims.

drzaiusapelord• 11 years ago

there is a spiritual purpose behind it, not connected to money,

Religion, especially in what's pretty much a theocracy-lite, is very much tied to power and money.

SA is swimming in oil money, so it doesn't need to perform some crass commercialization (although I'm sure the restaurant, transportation, and hotel industry benefit directly), but maintaining and consolidating power is part of this game. Humanity didn't start religion because we felt unusually generous. Its a way to gain power and resources by exploiting various human desires like the need for meaning, the need for afterlife beliefs, etc.

YZF• 11 years ago

"IEA (2010) defined Middle East as Bahrain, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Syria, United Arab Emirates and Yemen.[1] According to this definition, Middle East population was 127 million in 1990 and 205 million in 2010." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Middle_Eas...

asadlionpk• 11 years ago

They are doing good job on scaling it but are actually applying all the tourism practices to Makkah and ruining the essence of Hajj. They have commercialized everything which is completely opposite of what Hajj is supposed to be.

gnyman• 11 years ago

In case you don't see any pictures, unblock "Optimizely". At least with the standard ghostery install it did not load any pictures before I allowed Optimizely.

codezero• 11 years ago

It's amazing how many people implement Optimizely in a way that breaks the site if you block it.

chippy2• 11 years ago

"The most comprehensive database of Hajj and Umrah ratings and reviews worldwide! Find out what pilgrims say before you choose your Hajj or Umrah travel agent, company, or group."

http://www.hajjratings.com/

Like trip advisor but for pilgrims. Wonderful comments.

"They are terrible guys. They gave me wrong transportation and they overcharged me for the airline ticket as opposed to other people.

Avoid at any cost!!!! "

People just like us and many from HN travel to these places and they experience it in a great many ways. Hajj is not a holiday, but it's certainly travel!

njharman• 11 years ago

The huge towers are pretty amazing. I have never seen them in any other pictures of the Kabba https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraj_Al_Bait

sandworm101• 11 years ago

I'm not muslim but did live in Saudi Arabia for many years (aramco) and have to say that the saudi government is very devout when it comes to hajj. When accidents happened, the entire country was upset regardless of the news blackouts. The ability to provide hajj underpins the royal family's authority. They take is very personally.

But a few things...

(1) The ban on non-muslims is not as tight as portrayed. More than a few westerners have been to mecca, many to advise on hajj matters. There are also legendary stories of non-muslim children being brought on hajj by saudi families. I heard stories from neighbours, things more than rumours, but never met anyone who actually witnessed this.

(2) Lots of the people sleeping rough do so by choice. Many simply do not want pillows and beds during hajj. For them it isn't meant to be comfortable. More hotel-type rooms may help, but it will never get everyone off the streets.

(3) Security is a huge issue. Religious extremists have caused plenty of trouble. The Saudis have large numbers of soldiers hidden just out of sight to quell any repeat.

(4) The clockface is horrible, but that is the style in the country. People who go to Vegas sometimes remark about that style, but it is just a matter of taste. If you were living there it wouldn't seem nearly as bad. The clock itself also serves a purpose. Many pilgrims do not wear watches, most all are suffering jet lag and much of the process is now indoors. So like vegas, it is very easy to loose track of time. The various clocks are all big and horrible, but do serve some function. (It also has to be a mechanical clock, else everyone would insist on arabic numerals, which I've never seen on any digial wallclock.)

(5) The King actually does hajj each year, during the appropriate time. He has guards, but they could do nothing for him in a crush. For a man his age we have to give him some credit.

Mecca Then and Now – 128 Years of Growth

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