How I Failed, Failed, and Finally Succeeded at Learning How to Code

http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2011/06/how-i-failed-failed-and-finally-succeeded-at-learning-how-to-code/239855/?single_page=true

by jimsojim • 11 years ago

173 67 11 years ago

theatlantic.com

buckbova• 11 years ago

[2011]

It took a while before programming really "clicked" with me too, and I started with BASIC on an apple ][. It probably wasn't until a year or two into CS that I could approach a problem in an organized manner.

Now after decades of exposure, as my CS algos professor prophesied, it takes me a week or two to pick up a new language.

happytrails• 11 years ago

I keep seeing all these programming articles and schools that'll teach you in 3 months and you'll make 70k+. Someone is trying to flood the market to drive wages down.

enraged_camel• 11 years ago

>Someone is trying to flood the market to drive wages down.

Why resort to such a conspiracy theory? Do you have any evidence?

I subscribe to a much simpler explanation: the market is simply responding to demand for higher-paying jobs. Colleges are obviously failing to train people for such jobs, so vocational schools (i.e. for coding) are picking up the slack.

no1youknowz2• 11 years ago

I saw this recently.

Make of it what you will.

http://i.imgur.com/VzVNAFc.png

UK-AL• 11 years ago

Colleges do a good job providing general cs skills.

Bootcamps teach you how to use ruby on rails +CSS + HTML + js, and that's it. Data structures? Algorthim analysis? Databases? Machine learning? No

svisser• 11 years ago

Or: someone is trying to make money from bootcamps while claiming there are shortcuts to a high salary.

javajosh4• 11 years ago

I have to wonder what sort of code your average bootcamp graduate is really capable of producing. I'd say that you could get really, really good at a single concrete stack and toolset in that time (e.g. osx, bash, Linode, postgres, rails, chrome, sublime, chrome dev tools, maybe nginx, wireshark, redis).

But as soon as you swap out even one item, the pain will start.

Now do it with Windows, power shell, Azure, mysql, php, firefox, notepad++, firebug, IIS, mongo. Now do it with Linux, zsh, Digital Ocean Meteor, Safari, vi, django, apache. Now do it with Linux, bash, AWS, Java, Spring, Oracle, Eclipse, Glassfish. Now do it with RedHat in Docker on AWS running Postgres, Redis, Nginx, Java and Node, over WebSockets over any browser.

Now you will know what you are doing. It will take about 10 years.

paulpauper• 11 years ago

I am doubtful that one of these boot-campers will be as good as someone with 10+ years of coding experience, so there will still be a wage premium for the most competent of coders

throwaway838• 11 years ago

Notice also that now it's all about "coding" and never programming or software development/engineering. This is deliberate.

And good luck getting respect from non-technical managers, policy makers, or the public at large when your actual job title is "coder" and all of these articles, bootcamps, and CodeCademy type websites have convinced everyone that "coding" (unlike law or medicine) is super easy and anyone can do it!

"Why isn't the ERP system ready yet? It's just coding, after all... I did that on CodeCademy when I was in high school as part of the National Teach Everyone To Code Initiative and it was easy. I already did the hard part by telling you exactly what we need (and telling you again each of the fifty or so times our requirements changed); all you have to do is code out the details. What's the hold up?"

gaius• 11 years ago

It's the same as the "scientist shortage" except instead of taking 5 years to churn out PhDs who can't get research jobs, you can churn out "coders" in only 12 weeks!

ArekDymalski2• 11 years ago

"In a way, the ORIC-1 was so mesmerizing because it stripped computing down to its most basic form: you typed some instructions; it did something cool. This was the computer's essential magic laid bare. Somehow ten or twenty lines of code became shapes and sounds; somehow the machine breathed life into a block of text."

Oh, yeah. I still remember that feeling from Atari 65xe and then C-64. Now it's much harder to get such instant gratification. While trying to revive my passion and learn new stuff as an adult I also failed several times, because I set my aspirations too high and wasn't able to quickly learn all the necessary stuff at once :) Nowadays the path to "cool things" seems to be much harder, until you adjust your personal definition of cool.

andreasvc• 11 years ago

I think today you get that kind of interactive computing with something like the IPython notebook. You can load an image, apply an effect on it and immediately see the result. You can lookup documentation interactively too.

If anything, I think nowadays there are too much cool things, and the challenge is figuring out what can be achieved with them in a small number of steps, instead of getting lost.

ArekDymalski2• 11 years ago

Yes, Python seems to be the closest thing to BASIC and the abundance of cool things is really distracting indeed. Thanks for pointing me to iPython, I haven't heard about it before.

vezzy-fnord• 11 years ago

You should check out a modern Smalltalk environment like Pharo so as to find this interactivity taken to its ultimate conclusion (relative to what we have).

radlad5• 11 years ago

If anything, I think nowadays there are too much cool things, and the challenge is figuring out what can be achieved with them in a small number of steps, instead of getting lost.

And which are actually important to know vs. which will fade in less than a year.

ar_turnbull• 11 years ago

I got that feeling recently learning iOS. I had previously taken many programming courses where everything happened in the console, and to go from that to storyboards and the robust UIKit frameworks got me hooked. I've been teaching myself and have slowly progressed from newb to relatively competent in the last six months. I still have a lot to learn, but I'm enjoying the learning process in a way I never thought I would.

radlad5• 11 years ago

I think a lot of people have a preferred "style" of development, and some are unfortunately deterred when the first they're introduced to doesn't quite suit them.

Take for example MATLAB vs. Scheme vs. C vs. Java vs Python. All very different ways of programming, all very valid, but everyone has their own style they prefer.

akshat_h2• 11 years ago

I am curious if project euler teaches you programming. I does teach you mathematics and thinking logically, but software engineering is different and is really learnt on the job. I am always confused when someone says about learning or teaching coding. What is meant by coding here? Writing fizzbuzz? Or writing enterprise software with so many levels in between and around as well.

danso2• 11 years ago

I am always confused when someone says about learning or teaching coding. What is meant by coding here? Writing fizzbuzz? Or writing enterprise software with so many levels in between and around as well.

Isn't that like asking, "What is meant by 'learning to write'? Subject-verb sentences? Or the next Great American Novel?" It's possible to learn programming without getting into software engineering.

akshat_h2• 11 years ago

Point noted and accepted. It seems I haven't even graduated and am already becoming insular and elitist. Need to do some self-realization.

jtwebman2• 11 years ago

Many aspects of programming like code readability, patterns, and abstractions could all be taught in a fun interactive way like these problems are done in. This site just focuses more on the math and logical thinking parts.

personjerry• 11 years ago

I'm waiting for an article about "How I Failed, Failed, and Am Still Failing" to provide the flip side in contrast to these success stories we are so biased towards

danso2• 11 years ago

There are plenty of those. Also from The Atlantic: "Should Journalism Schools Require Reporters to 'Learn Code'? No"

http://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2013/10/should-...

0xdeadbeefbabe• 11 years ago

Or how I succeeded at coding and then realized I had failed at coding.

logicallee• 11 years ago

here you go - "So I fired up my IDE and spent an hour, finally getting my C# program to compile. It put out bullshit, I couldn't figure out why. I gave up. Then I fired up my ole' Putty and tried to get into my server to figure out why my database kept giving me an error. I thought about rolling back but couldn't figure out how Chef actually works, even though I set it up. Finally, I had this really cool idea for a javascript game I could code up real quick, and spent an hour in the javascript console trying to figure out why it wouldn't execute. Gave up on that too. I read some forums, there was a cool app to scrape my facebook, I ran it, it just requires Python, but it wouldn't run. Overall I accomplished nothing. Oh, and Chrome is still crashing at the most random times, no idea why."

Not quite the story we like to read.

javajosh4• 11 years ago

Holy shit you just articulated all of the reasons that hackers value their knowledge - and the very important quality of never giving up. You search. You go on IRC. You get the source and compile it. You step aside and learn a tool better in isolation - then use it on your problem. You poke, prod, test. And your understanding begins to form, to conform to the shape of the problem, the map of what you know, what you've tried, what you have yet to try. You talk to others to fill in the important blank of what you don't know yet to try.

Because that story you told is abhorrant, even profane, but all too common.

marincounty2• 11 years ago

"Not quite the story we like to read."

This is the stories we like to read! A lot of us are procrastinators? I will remember your reaction to a comment. I will now get off HN, and open up my more dusty Folders!

marincounty2• 11 years ago

I think there are a lot of those stories? I know I can't call myself a Programmer yet? I can call myself a website builder though. I can spot errors in other people's Javascript, but I still would never call myself a Programmer. And even though I can put up websites, I not that proud of it? 95% of the learning process was just following directions?

I have noticed there's a lot of successful people out there whom hang titles behind their names whom aren't very good at what they do, whether it's Programming, Business, or Whatever Expertise claimed?

I sometimes think the key to success is over inflating one's ability, and faking it? I personally know so many extremely wealthy Fakers. Programming is one field I couldn't imagine faking it? I guess my point is I know too many people who literally lied about their abilities, and in the end--Won big time!

I sometimes feel the way I was brought up(every Sunday going to church, and feeling very confused) was detrimental to my wallet?? Plus, as a kid, unless we really/really were great at something; we kept our accomplishments/skills to ourselfs. We never got the chance to brag. If we did(brag), someone would literally, usually verbally, smack us, and we never acted overconfident again? I honestly feel being modest, and not chasing the Dollar--held my generation(born 60's-70's) back? (What I saying, I still can't stomach people who over-inflate their abilities, nor go after money too aggressively--especially money from the poor/middle class! The thought of my filthy Looker sister is enough to get me to stop this post. She did some damage to her family over the almighty Dollar--really weaselly stuff. She's rich though?)

Havoc3• 11 years ago

Was easy as a kid - effortless even. If your day job doesn't involve coding then it fades fast though.

The mindset / thinking style thankfully doesn't seem to fade though. Thats why I'm all for making kids learn to code. Yes they'll suck & no they won't become real programmers but it leaves a permanent imprint on the minds of those that take it seriously.

radlad5• 11 years ago

I loved it. I bought my first domain when I was 10, intending to create a game like Neopets. I obviously quickly learned I wasn't going to be able to, but I created a fan site, kept hacking at it, and learning. I learned security, etc. By the time I was out of high school, I was recruited by [redacted].

Some of those kids will go on to be decent programmers. And it definitely leaves you with a much more analytic way of thinking, for better or worse.

Havoc3• 11 years ago

leaves you with a much more analytic way of thinking, for better or worse.

I'm curious why you say "for better or worse"? (Not judging either way - just curious as to your thinking)

lelandbatey• 11 years ago

This is very true. I was raised in Redmond, Washington (home of Microsoft and others), and the school curriculum was influenced to some degree by proximity to software companies. There where many lessons that where in some way relatable to programming, and those made learning programming later on much easier.

nsxwolf• 11 years ago

I also grew up in Redmond, but probably a little earlier than you. Your comment made me wonder why it took Microsoft so long to get into the schools -- from 1982 to 1990, it was all Commodore PETs and Apple IIs. In Microsofts own backyard!

na85• 11 years ago

I plan to give my kids an old PC or two that they can do anything they want with, on the condition that they have to fix it if they break it.

I'll use a Linux or BSD because let's face it, proprietary operating systems are pretty shitty platforms to learn to tinker with.

Havoc3• 11 years ago

I plan to give my kids an old PC

You're on exactly the same wavelength as me on this...but that phrase made me pause. Remember your kids will judge whatever you give them against the latest ipad3000. If that gap is too big they'll lose interest forever & you risk losing the war because you weren't willing to concede a battle.

I grew up exactly as you described - built a dos box with my dad & it was all mine. The internet world is too complicated though - you need an adult to hold your hand.

The above is of course opinion - not fact. To each his own...

einai• 11 years ago

My interest in computer as a kid (4 or 5) came from watching my dad working/playing on the computer, and he would show me simple commands in DOS and little things (the paint bucket stood out for some reason) he could do with it. It really left an impression and told me that computer was a useful/fun tool that was worth exploring, which I believe eventually led to me trying to figure things out on the computer and making websites/interfaces.

agumonkey• 11 years ago

I always felt weird about this kind of math, because problem don't have an "API", or an algebra, it's too open. But if you're into creativity and search then it's even more fun. Maybe a psychology thing in the end.

Took me far too long to find the triangle area.

mwfunk• 11 years ago

In general, I've found that almost all success at anything worth doing comes from repeatedly failing until you don't. If you fail the first time and give up, you probably didn't care enough to do it anyway. If you succeed the first time, it probably wasn't that hard. Fail often and fail hard and be proud of it! It's a sign of progress, or at the very least attempted progress.

autotune• 11 years ago

I prescribe to the "you must try, try and try, try and try" method of failure as described by Mr. Cliff. If it doesn't work out by the 5th time just repeat the cycle as necessary.

amenghra• 11 years ago

Failing is good as long as you learn something out of it "fail, learn something and be proud of what you learned".

smitherfield• 11 years ago

Not sure the last example the author gives of chess-playing programs is a good one though; a task where it is literally impossible to succeed would just serve to discourage even the most motivated of newcomers, I'd think.

lqdc132• 11 years ago

Or a sign that you should try something else. Not everyone can succeed at everything. Obviously it is best to recognize that as early as possible in the endeavor.

michaelbuddy• 11 years ago

the best story always involves the ones where somebody WANTS to do something so bad that they just keep at it at all costs and eventually make it. Great story but the more common story is somewhere between giving up vs realizing that something isn't that valuable to you (or as fun) as you thought it might be. you realize you don't or probably won't enjoy the process. The no pain no gain model is true to an extent but often a person got a closer look, they can probably deal with the pain, but the gain is no longer all the shiny and worth pursuing.

So you must look at the objective with short and long goggles to see if your understanding about it is right. As you do things well they might get more enjoyable with time. Finding a balance where challenge is still there but you're in the zone of craft. Where you know you can make it work and the challenge is something surmountable. The memory of how hard it was to get to that point isn't one of regret or pain. Just learning, and maybe relief.

jtwebman2• 11 years ago

ORIC-1 was the Raspberry PI of my day as well. Though I had a Commodore 64.

fit2rule• 11 years ago

Still got my ORIC-1, and a few Atmos' to boot .. the kids love 'em!

ZoeZoeBee2• 11 years ago

Welcome to the New World, the education system in America is broken especially when it comes to teaching evolving topics like programming. Imagine what the world would be like if instead of the 30hrs Americans spend on average watching tv a week, they instead took that time to learn and create.

lqdc132• 11 years ago

I imagine it being much more competitive for us if it was the case. I'm actually very happy that not many people know how to code or have the interest in it. It almost feels like we have unfair superpowers.

ZoeZoeBee2• 11 years ago

LoL alright fair point, but they don't have to learn to code, just find something instead of zoning out.

rickdale• 11 years ago

Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better.

Samuel Beckett

billrobertson42• 11 years ago

Not having success at the beginning isn't failing. It's learning.

How I Failed, Failed, and Finally Succeeded at Learning How to Code

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