This Industry is Fucked

https://blog.jessfraz.com/post/this-industry-is-fucked/

by waffle_ss • 11 years ago

308 262 11 years ago

blog.jessfraz.com

Mithaldu• 11 years ago

I have nothing but admiration and applause for Jessie's stance. I do hope she does everything she can to get those perpetrating such deeds into the hands of law enforcement.

pedalpete2• 11 years ago

I'm currently working in a team that is 50% women, and I'm amazed at how many stories they have of previous work experiences and the culture of acceptance in medium sized companies.

I hope Jessie doesn't give up. Not only for the sake of our industry, but also for the sake of girls who want to make it in this industry and not have to put up with what jessie has had to put up with.

Her (or any person) having to leave our industry because of any sort of harassment hurts the rest of us the most.

Rather than going the law enforcement harassment route, is there any way we as an industry can stand up for Jessie and the rest of the woman who are being abused by a few assholes?

Just yesterday I met a friends niece who wants to become a game developer. She's only 14 now, but what a shame it would be for her to give up on her dream because some idiotic moron, mentally incapable of forming real normal relationships, has ruined our industry for her.

This doesn't need police action (though nothing wrong with that), it needs us to be outspoken and supportive. Maybe also a bit creative in how we handle this. I'm all for finding ways of kicking these offensive guys out and bringing more women in.

nightcracker• 11 years ago

This absolutely needs police action.

Regardless of what your stance is on unwanted sexual attention, sending death threats is not acceptable.

DaveSapien• 11 years ago

Death threats are illegal in most countries. So yes, police action.

corysama4• 11 years ago

Agreed. What Jessie is dealing with is classic internet trolls. They don't give a damn about "Women in Tech", her or anything else. All that interests them is finding a target to dig a reaction out of "for the lulz". They do it because it gives them little endorphin pops to think about how upset their victim must be and because it's very low risk. That's all there is to it. If there was any perception of risk in their activity, they wouldn't do it.

Making it clear that "this is simply unacceptable" will only encourage trolls. They aren't ignorant. They don't even have an agenda. They're simply selfish. The only way to discourage them is to introduce concrete risk to the unwanted activity.

pedalpete2• 11 years ago

You are correct nightcracker, I guess I should have said, along with police action.

I think police action may be more difficult than us taking responsibility ourselves. Should be both.

ChuckMcM• 11 years ago

Outrageous behavior, and I'm glad Jessie is not giving into it. I can't imagine why someone would get death threats over being a female engineer.

pnt12• 11 years ago

I do not know the author of the blog but that's horrible. No one should have to face that. Unfortunately, behind the anonimity of the internet, trolls and disgusting people will harass pretty much anyone and there's not much anyone can do.

Best of luck Jessie.

88e282102ae2e5b• 11 years ago

I just want to understand why people do this. If some men were afraid of losing their jobs because of a big influx of women I'd at least comprehend (but definitely not agree with) that behavior, but it's a job free-for-all now and seems like it always will be, so I just can't see what the motivation could possibly be. If they're just pure sociopaths, why don't they harass men this way as well?

AdeptusAquinas• 11 years ago

Because they're insecure and want attention - if they can elicit a response from her then a woman has acknowledged their existence. Or because they feel innately that they are superior to women because they are male, and then cant comprehend that she is more prominent than they are, which makes them angry.

Immaturity essentially, given teeth by the anonymous power of the net and some distorted belief in freedom of speech (on the part of the companies that should be excising this crap).

__z3• 11 years ago

Or because they feel innately that they are superior to women because they are male, and then cant comprehend that she is more prominent than they are, which makes them angry.

http://www.sorrywatch.com/2015/04/05/everyone-deserves-a-sec...

Mo’ne Davis got famous for being the first girl to pitch a shutout in the Little League World Series at 13. She also plays basketball and football - she is very talented athletically. She appeared on talk shows and the cover of Sports Illustrated. Disney announced that they were going to make a movie about her.

A grown man (college baseball player Joey Casselberry) reacted to this with the following tweet:

"Disney is making a movie about Mo’Ne Davis? WHAT A JOKE. That slut got rocked by Nevada"

A grown man called a 13 year old a slut. A slut! Because she was getting well deserved attention.

unimpressive• 11 years ago

Because women are the easiest target, essentially.

The people who do this essentially are pure sociopaths, and they pick the easiest targets because they're bullies. Women are an easy target for several reasons:

1. Isolation. Women are a minority in tech and there's a larger social stereotype that women can't do math/are incapable of advanced reason/whatever tosh you want to throw in here. That means it's easier to tell women they're trash and undeserving and have them believe it. There's not a lot of people most women can go to to complain about this or receive validation that these are poisonous lies without triggering another stereotype, being weak and vulnerable.

People would rather sit in silence and take it than be seen as a whiner.

2. In performance oriented cultures it's very common to shit on each other as an in-group building behavior. People who can 'take it' are the in group and people who get offended are the out group. Bullies can exploit this by knowing exactly how far they can push and make it seem like good natured ribbing even in a public social context. More subtle bullies can take things further by establishing unique contexts for minor slights to give them greater meaning that isn't there for other people, so that when the victim complains they seem irrational and crazy to observers. (Another stereotype of women.)

3. Cultural factors. All those stereotypes regardless of how much truth there is to them become self fulfilling prophecies. Women are weak and vulnerable is essentially an advertisement for bullies to go target women, bullies enjoy hurting women more for reasons that could be basically summed up as actual misogyny.

As for harassing men as well, they do. They just use different words when they do it. It might be helpful to throw out terms like 'women-hating' or 'misogynist' and zoom out a bit to look at the ways bullies hurt people in different contexts. Bullies don't care who you are, they will hurt anybody who will give them the warm fuzzies of having gotten someone. And to do that they will use whatever tactics or words will hurt.

These people use rape threats and death threats against women because they hurt. Women as a class are the most receptive to this sort of negative input for various cultural and yes physical reasons I won't elaborate on. But bullies have all sorts of tricks to use on other people. If you're a typical heterosexual male they'll tell you you're gay and unmanly. If you're gay and proud they'll tell you you're deviant scum. If you're a minority they'll call you racial slurs and insult you with stereotypes. If you have visible pimples they will tell you you're ugly. They will pick out whatever salient features are available to hurt you with and use them. It's less helpful to think of a lot of these people as racists or what not so much as optimization processes for suffering and tears.

They don't care who you are, they will hurt anyone.

MollyR2• 11 years ago

http://www.pewinternet.org/2014/10/22/online-harassment/

It looks like both genders are harassed quite a bit, younger people being harassed more. What surprised me in this article was men being physically threatened more than women.

EliRivers• 11 years ago

I suspect that if you put threats of rape into the physical threats bucket (it is, of course, a physical threat, but it often gets its own bucket, or gets put into a sexual harassment bucket) the results might be different.

antod2• 11 years ago

Men can get harassed too, but threats of sexual violence understandably create a much more visceral reaction in women.

Because men usually don't feel as vulnerable they can to a greater extent disregard certain types of threats or not get exposed to them (especially the sexual ones).

Unfortunately the abusers/bullies have a larger more powerful arsenal for attacking women than men.

rpcope1• 11 years ago

If what she claims is true, it must take some rather large amounts of wherewithal to continue in this industry, for which I certainly applaud her. It's also rather hard to imagine or contend the manner in which many in our industry behave; I certainly know that if my girlfriend or sister had been treated like this, I'd certainly feel rather violently inclined (as human nature often leads one to be) to end that behavior. You know, while I certainly don't always agree with the spirit in which we try and enforce things like diversity and often think that victim-hood is taken a little too far, it's perhaps harder to understand the filthy, trashy and rather base individuals that would treat Ms. Frazelle in this manner. It doesn't give me a lot of hope sometimes for my gender or for our culture as a whole; my thoughts go out to Ms. Frazelle that things get better for her.

aaa6672• 11 years ago

And people ask why more women don't speak at conferences or at meetup groups or contribute to open source software, or even publish blogs. It's because we are SCARED. We know what the consequences of making our voices heard can be, and it's terrifying, and we question whether it is worth the risk.

obstacle19• 11 years ago

I think you're being a bit overbroad in speaking for all women (that's the kind of thinking which leads to sexism in the first place). Frankly the 'consequences' here are receiving a bunch of unsavoury PMs. i.e., there are no real-world, physical, dangerous consequences. So the fear of contributing to a community because of it is unfounded. It's just a side-effect of Internet culture, and it happens to men too.

nmrm25• 11 years ago

The author received private messages saying that someone jerked off to a picture of her at a conference and also photoshopped pictures of her full of blood.

Those sorts of messages -- even in isolation -- have real-world, often physical, consequences. This attitude that sexual harassment is only harmful if it's a physical assault needs to go back to the 1950's where it belongs.

aaa6672• 11 years ago

I would say that death threats can have very real-world consequences, and if I were to receive them the real-world consequence would be that I would be scared for my life. You tell me how that isn't the real world..

prawn5• 11 years ago

Wow, completely insensitive to reality. Photoshopped photos of blood and so on represent serious intimidation. Which one is the troll and which is the one who follows through, finds your address and makes it physical?

This dismissive attitude is part of the problem.

qmalxp• 11 years ago

If someone sent you an email every day from different email addresses with the same text saying they were going to rape and murder you, and included your home address, pictures of your family and pictures of weapons, that wouldn't bother you?

How do you know there are no real-world consequences? You're just gonna assume it's some 14-year-old kid trolling you and not one of the many insane people in this world who might actually do something? Based on a hunch?

rodgerd2• 11 years ago

there are no real-world, physical, dangerous consequences

Tell that to Val Adams or other women who have been sexually assaulted at tech conferences.

and it happens to men too

My mistake. I thought you were serious, not that redpill was leaking.

wpietri11• 11 years ago

It's just a side-effect of Internet culture, and it happens to men too.

This is false-equivalence horseshit. It may also happen to men, but it happens a couple of orders of magnitude less. I've spoken at a number of conferences and never received anything like this. If you talk to prominent men and women in tech about their experiences, they get radically different levels of abuse.

Also, Internet culture is not something that has been going on for thousands of years. It is entirely new. So either a) this should be a pretty easy fix, or b) it's actually part of something bigger than "Internet culture".

aikah2• 11 years ago

why more women don't speak at conferences or at meetup groups or contribute to open source software

Whatever, Plenty of women do all the things you said without issues.

shawnee_• 11 years ago

I’ve gotten hundreds of private messages on IRC and emails about sex, rape, and death threats.

Not sure what IRC channels she has been hanging out in, or what her spam filters are letting through, but this has not been my experience at all... in 10 years of contributing to OSS.

However, attractive female posts videos (yep, even conference talk) on the Internet, and attention ensues?

Maybe it's not an "industry" thing. Maybe it's something else.

[EDIT] -- Wow, thanks for the votes folks. The author wants to blame "the Industry" for something that is not unique to the industry.

yoshuaw5• 11 years ago

Wow, you just downplayed receiving death threats to "attention ensues".

obstacle19• 11 years ago

If I had a nickel for every death threat I've received on the Internet I'd be rich. Death threats from Internet brigade squads are wildly different from actual death threats you need to worry about. Hence the downplaying.

foiboitoi• 11 years ago

I've found that you can absolutely chalk up "online death threats" to idiots vying for attention.

Impersonal (distant) threats are not created equal to in person threats.

Edit: The harm is subjective. The whole point of such a message is it's designed entirely to shock or offend. To give the pests actual power over you is the greatest part of the problem.

Not saying it should be ignored either. Instead of being melodramatic, we should be pragmatic like we were with email spam. The next step is to create tools giving greater power to the users to pro-actively prevent such nonsense.

deelowe• 11 years ago

This is terrible. Are scenarios like this really common? I work with several women in the office, but have not heard of them dealing with such harassment. Is our situation unique?

Either way, I hope this changes soon. There's no reason for acting like that.

thirdtruck• 11 years ago

You probably haven't heard it from them because complaining about such is so often labeled as "whining" and met with replies of "get a thicker skin." Even if you, specifically, are a genuinely sympathetic ear, they've likely been burned too often to open up yet again.

Frondo2• 11 years ago

This, this, a thousand times this.

I have a few female programmer friends, and they only ever spoke about "well, you know, not too many women in the field" in careful, guarded tones.

Until the Adria Richards thing happened, and I said something like "I don't really think either of them should have been fired, but I also think it's shitty how common those stupid sexual jokes are. I wish we could get past that stuff."

And it was like they realized they could actually trust me, and started opening up to me about actual specific stuff--like a constant barrage of junior high sexual jokes, being talked over or ignored constantly (which never happens to me, a tall white dude), being hit on, being not quite hit on but followed around and lots of awkward eye contact and vaguely nice gestures that ends up adding to something as inappropriate as being hit on, and on and on and on.

You know how they want to be treated? As people. But that's not really good enough--they want to be treated as people, and they want their coworkers to show maturity beyond what junior high school boys show.

Is this all male programmers? Of course not, not at all.

Enough that they have stories that could fill an afternoon?

Oh yes.

rodgerd2• 11 years ago

You probably haven't heard it from them because complaining about such is so often labeled as "whining" and met with replies of "get a thicker skin."

One need only look here, where many of the responses could be retitled "Talking points from gamergate" or "redpill leakage".

kidsthesedays• 11 years ago

Speaking as a woman here -

Are scenarios like this really common?

Very common.

have not heard of them dealing with such harassment

Doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Opening up about harassment opens you up to more problems than it solves sometimes. You get labeled as a trouble maker or people don't believe you or say you made it up or whatever.

JesperRavn3• 11 years ago

I asked my only female coworker about this, and she said she had never experienced sexual harassment, and found tech culture tame compared with finance, where people would shout at programmers over the phone if things went wrong.

Just one data point.

prawn5• 11 years ago

Someone shouting and being rude is a little different to gory Photoshopped photos.

zallen2• 11 years ago

You do realize that finance is one of the worst places for representation of women and is recognized as a cesspit? (http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2009/0316/072_terminated_women....). It's wonderful that your friend has had positive experiences throughout her career.

antod2• 11 years ago

I think it's a different thing for women who are publicly visible and eg talk at conferences, or have popular blogs or have some level of leadership etc.

The women coders, designers and testers I've worked with and known well personally have never mentioned experiencing any online abuse either. But they have all been private nine to fivers* who don't have any visibility or online presence beyond their immediate family, friends and colleagues.

It would probably be a completely different story if any of them felt like sticking their heads up above the parapet and identifiably participating in online tech 'culture'. Especially if they dared to state an opinion on anything.

I think there's a difference in exposure between being a tech worker and being a public geek/hacker etc. Colleagues or bosses are more accountable for their actions than semi anonymous bullies on the net.

* No disrespect intended by that label at all (for men or women). Just that they weren't geeky hobbyists and didn't indulge in tech stuff outside work. In fact I kinda envy that these days, but I still can't let it go.

vonklaus5• 11 years ago

This is less about the tech industry and more about the culture of the internet. A loud minority enforce the culture of anonymity on the internet and having a public presence will open one up to getting caught in the crosshairs. Being a "public figure" has always opened one up to these sorts of things, the internet has made the barrier of entry very low for spamming and threatening someone. I don't see any solution to this.

MarkPNeyer2• 11 years ago

here is my solution : https://github.com/neyer/respect

aaronem5• 11 years ago

Got something for those of us who aren't mathematicians? I mean, I appreciate you've put a lot of thought into this and I'm sure it seems perfectly sensible to you, but expecting us mere mortals to determine our response to a given situation by matrix multiplication is maybe expecting a little more than our capabilities can afford.

jacques_chester• 11 years ago

Webs of trust are very hard to bootstrap. Probably the most serious attempt in our industry was Advogato:

http://www.advogato.org/trust-metric.html

Nimitz14• 11 years ago

That was an awesome read. Cool idea.

chipx862• 11 years ago

Kudos to her for standing up to it, but she should clearly never have to. This kind of thing just shouldn't be happening...

I don't think I know anybody who does this to women. I really hope that's because I don't actually know anyone who does, and not that people I otherwise respect are secretly doing this. How would a person know, if it's anonymous?

Well, maybe a few ways. The question is, are these all actually anonymous? Jessie's post lists messages on IRC and e-mails. I'd bet some people get harassed on Twitter, Reddit, or other widely-used platforms. Some of these people must be identifiable, surely? At the very least, some might be using the same username/e-mail address across many services, and might end up using one in relation to a job application.

The last thing I'd want is a witch hunt, where innocent people end up on the wrong end of an Internet lynch mob. What I'm about to wonder out-loud might be a bad or ill-conceived idea, but here goes:

Would it be reasonable/helpful/worthwhile to have some centralized place where these kinds of harassments can be forwarded and grouped? E-mails with headers, tweets with screenshots of the full context, IRC messages with Nickserv registration info, etc., so that repeat offenders would have a form of evidence (and I stress evidence) stacked against them? Some form of "witness" system, where other recipients (Twitter users, IRC users, etc.) can sign off that they saw this take place?

Basically, create a sort of tech industry predator list. Not everyone on there would be readily identifiable, but maybe some would be. I certainly would check it before hiring anyone, look up GitHub usernames and such, and it might help give people who don't experience this a better sense of just how terrible and prevalent this all is.

So, good idea, at least in part? Terrible idea with too much potential for further abuse? Somewhere in-between?

byuu• 11 years ago

Way too difficult and rife for abuse.

First, we don't really have static IPs, not even static prefixes on IPv6. You could narrow someone down to their city by their host mask, but that can still be any of 5,000,000 people. And all they have to do is change their MAC address and renew their DHCP lease to have a new IP.

Second, easy to submit faked screenshots to get someone flagged as a bad person. When you get (in)famous enough, trolls start using false flag operations against you.

Best bet is probably a service where registration requires absolute proof of ID (Facebook's "I pinky promise I'm really $madeUpName" isn't enough.) But that still has issues with stolen logins, tricking the registration system, the harassment having your real identity known can cause, and it would keep away decent people who value their privacy.

This is why we can't have nice things.

thedudemabry• 11 years ago

I'm going to avoid addressing the community-created offender registry idea, because like you I'm not sure how to even begin evaluating its potential harms.

But I think that law enforcement will inevitably create something of the sort. Like John Oliver's harrassment video from a few weeks ago described, these are real crimes being committed and the state has an interest in solving them. The current weak link in prosecuting offenders is in training officers and prosecutors to recognize that a crime was committed and in providing them the tools to gather enough evidence for a conviction. And I hope we'll get there soon.

Once there is a lower bar for and less social stigma attached to reporting these crimes and having those responsible judged in court, there will be a public record. So whether someone in our community makes a death threat in real life or via Twitter, they'll face the same social consequences as well as legal ones.

chipx862• 11 years ago

Yeah, there is a lot of potential for abuse. Mostly hoping that it would spur on some additional thinking in this area.

John Oliver's segment was great. What I'm unsure of, though, is how much a cop can really do? The offenders are not necessarily going to be in the same general area. They may not be in the same country. This would need to be handled internationally, in some way, wouldn't it?

aaronem5• 11 years ago

Absent any binding reputation system with meaningful consequences, making such a registry public would be a pretty broad abuse risk; you'd need extremely heavy moderation, distributed over a large number of people, and even then you'd just be increasing the effort required to abuse the system, rather than eliminating the possibility. Given the potentially serious consequences of being blacklisted this way, I'd be very hesitant to make a registry like this public.

On the other hand, I'm really not sure anything less would be worthwhile -- keeping such a registry, but having it be private, would I think be hardly better than nothing, in terms of actually bringing this kind of misbehavior under control.

There's a tradeoff here that I'm not sure I'm qualified to evaluate.

On the one hand, I don't really care for the idea of an industry blacklist in general, on whatever grounds.

On the other hand, I'm not having to put up with death threats, rape threats, depraved sexual harassment, et cetera ad nauseam, simply in order to try to do my job to the best of my ability.

Taken all in all, I find myself in favor of a public registry. After all, no one has to act on anything they find there, and having a solid base of information out there would give the industry at large an opportunity, heretofore lacking, to put up or shut up -- either demonstrate that this kind of malbehavior is beyond the tech industry's civilized pale, or demonstrate that the tech industry is the boys' club it's been accused of being and has no particular desire to see that change.

I'm honestly not sure which is the more likely result, but I have to say I'd be interested to see the experiment made.

aikah2• 11 years ago

Basically, create a sort of tech industry predator list

People with your blacklists, you never learn...

The last thing I'd want is a witch hunt,

That's exactly what it is.

If one get abused,one must report it, contact someone in the business involved and even file a complain at the nearest police station. But lynch mobs on the internet ,no. If a business doesn't do enough against harassment then expose it. But don't go after individuals and ruin their lives because "internet justice".

chipsy• 11 years ago

Practically speaking, this has happened among SJ activists using social media; see for example the "Block Bot", "call-out culture," et al.

What has been observed is that the harassment doesn't "go away", so much as metamorphose into indirect forms. Now when abusers get attacked, they weaponize their own victimhood into a backlash, suddenly sending out dozens of messages that build up a sympathetic story. They bury their past by opening a new account, but openly declare themselves to be the same person, so as to bring along their entourage. They threaten suicide to raise the stakes(and in most such cases, they are actually unstable enough for this to be a serious concern). Abusers can be popular despite evidence against them, through a mix of propaganda, misinformation, and well-meaning onlookers who thoughtlessly share. There are many gambits that allow you to be an awful person with few penalties.

For this reason, many of my friends who were or considered being involved in activist efforts have gotten burned and would prefer not to be visible at all. The rest of them indicate some of the personality traits that allow them to tolerate or thrive off of sustained abuse, despite its toxicity.

I currently believe that the Internet is too dangerous to broadcast open thoughts on, but it has an alternate possibility of suggesting those thoughts without saying them. The wise will find the wise without anyone being the wiser.

sterl• 11 years ago

Sounds like some people need prison sentences.

Shamiq• 11 years ago

that's so fucked. this sucks :<.

astrocyte6• 11 years ago

This is not common and, given her focus area in tech, it just happens to be more pronounced among those individuals. Ever heard of 4chan? All it takes is one post of your info and you'll get a swarm of people descending on you...

Linux/open source is full of such individuals.

They do it to get a rise out of people and the internet is a nice anonymous vehicle to do it under. Has nothing to do w/ the broader industry of tech and more to do with a group of misfits who like to frazzle people for the lulz.

Get the police involved and keep these unfounded broad based attacks of a whole industry to yourself. By making such statements, you're attacking people unjustly and doing the same thing to others that is being done to you. Techies are not rapist... I could care less if you're male/female. The industry is not fucked. You just got trolled by some dweebs on the internet.

One pronounced incident and everyone is ready to cast stones at an industry.. If anything, this needs to stop. It's really getting old and, as someone who does their best to value/see people as equals as a good number in tech do, I'm getting tired of this sh*t.

Kapura2• 11 years ago

"Not common?" Really? This SEEMS pretty common.

And while I believe it's true that not every woman in tech gets harassed, it's obvious that a much higher percentage of them get this sort of shit than men. And it only gets worse as they get more visible for the good work that they're doing.

You say you're tired of this shit. How do you think these women feel? It's not you writing the tweets and emails, but if you become complacent and say "that's just how it is some times" you are a part of the problem.

Never stop fighting for equal treatment. Never say it's OK.

astrocyte6• 11 years ago

This isn't pretty common nor are any of the off the wall comments and threats she's getting serious. It's called trolling. Have you been on the internet in the last decade? If you're dumb enough to let someone get under your skin, they will and will do so even more.

I'm a minority. Do you know the kind of shit I've had to deal w/ in tech. Note the 'deal with'. Were supposedly in a society where women are demanding to be seen as equals just as men are. Guess what men have to do ? Deal w/ shit .. Shit we don't like on a daily basis. I don't get to create a blog post and have a swarm of women running to my defense? Why all the white knights when women have to go through shit? So, no.. there are standards that are still there. Standards by which men by and large defend women and treat them even above men.

I'm a minority (African American) in tech. Yes, please lets have a sit down so you can tell me all about the kind of crap that occurs. I'm obviously oblivious to it all and have no perspective.

It's not o.k but it's called trolling and this has jack shit to do w/ the tech industry and everything to do w/ the clown assery that is par for the course on the internet. So, I don't in anyway support her blog post. It is ignorant and ill-informed. Just think about it... You think men making six figures at prominent tech companies with a social life, a girlfriend, wife/daughters, and moms are sitting around typing out death threats and rape threats to some random woman in tech when they get home?

No. This is not common. It has jack shit to do w/ the tech industry and everything to do w/ shock-and-awe trolling on the internet. It's 2015. Get up-to-date with what's happening on the internet and stop running to women's rescue every time they have to to go through shit. They have announced they want to be seen as equals and treated as men are .. So, let them deal with and overcome their own shit... trolling being the least of things to be all bent out of shape about.

You disagree? Well, I guess some things haven't changed in society.. Namely that men by and large are still quite protective of women and hold them on high... Quite Contrary to what she and you are trying to portray...

mholt2• 11 years ago

if you say "that's just how it is some times" you are a part of the problem.

Come again? How is astrocyte part of Jessie's problem? People are responsible for their own choices, not the choices of others.

Never say it's OK.

Although I agree, I don't think astrocyte is saying that harassment is OK. (I assume that's what you're referring to.)

obstacle19• 11 years ago

it's obvious that a much higher percentage of them get this sort of shit than men

No, it isn't obvious, since even in the case of women all we have are lots of really visible anecdotes, not statistics.

It could easily be the case that the number of death threats received by males heavily outweighs the number of death threats received by females.

I know that I don't write reactive blog posts every time some troll threatens to gut me via PM. I wonder if other men disproportionately act like me (compared to women) and thus since we aren't screaming about troll death threats it is assumed we don't receive them.

tomjen32• 11 years ago

And while I believe it's true that not every woman in tech gets harassed, it's obvious that a much higher percentage of them get this sort of shit than men. And it only gets worse as they get more visible for the good work that they're doing.

Well of course. Assume that 1/x of men harass and 2/x (ie twice as high a fraction) of women harass. Since this industry has so many more men than women more women will be harassed than men, even if each individual man is less likely to harass.

blintzing• 11 years ago

How is what the author described "one pronounced incident"? One email or IRC message could be a "pronounced incident". What she describes is clearly much worse, and points to a deep problem - not an one-off "incident".

nmrm25• 11 years ago

Telling people to stop complaining about what is clearly criminal harassment because it makes the industry look bad is a pretty disgusting sentiment.

andrewvc• 11 years ago

Why are you so sure that it's not common? I keep reading articles like this and I'm inclined to believe it's more than a coincidence. I dearly wish this woman's experience was an outlier but that is hard to believe.

I truly wish that there was a bright light I could shine over the world of software relieving the clearly disturbed souls of this woman's abusers from whatever pain it is that they act out of. It's extremely sad that my faceless colleagues have so many issues with women, and sadder still that these innocent women have to bear the brunt of it.

jdub• 11 years ago

"This is not common…"

It's fucking outrageously common. It might not be in your face, but it's an insidious and unrelenting horror to everyone it does affect.

It happens to be particularly bad in the tech world for a bunch of reasons, but women have a shitty time pretty much everywhere. On social media (mansplaining, innuendo, inappropriate messages, stalking, trolling, death threats), on the street (catcalling, abuse, stalking), in their homes (partner abuse)…

MollyR2• 11 years ago

I'm sorry to hear this.

But I want to add a counter statistic. I've only had pleasant experiences from people trying to help me. The only shit I got in the industry was from a business manager trying to push our team into a death march.

There are many factors out in there in the world. We need to put things back into context, rather than just saying things like "Our Industry is fucked".

It feels like lately its too easy to forget the majority of people in tech (i've found) are incredibly decent human beings both men and women.

aaronem5• 11 years ago

That's true of the majority everywhere, I think, but the minority in this case has a disproportionately large impact -- for example, in running Kathy Sierra, a highly competent professional with a great deal to contribute, out of the industry entirely.

aklemm2• 11 years ago

Focusing on the minority is important, and kind of the point of article. The vocal minority in the tech world seem to be more unreasonably misbehaved than other industries. Imagine a woman in the medical industry or energy sector who gives conference talks and blogs...no way she's going to get this level of harassment.

aklemm2• 11 years ago

Would love to hear an explanation of where I'm wrong along with the downvotes.

purp12• 11 years ago

A counter-counter-example: do you believe the majority of the citizenry of Tombstone, Arizona, circa October 1881 were outlaws? And yet https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunfight_at_the_O.K._Corral

I'm happy it hasn't impinged on your work life, and I hope it never does. And there's still folks being hurt by a malevolent minority in and around our industry.

When does that majority of incredibly decent human beings, both men and women, start to care enough that they refuse to accept this any longer?

chuckcode2• 11 years ago

The level of abuse the author has endured is ridiculous and she certainly has my sympathies. It reminds me of Louis CK's routine about why he doesn't give his kids cell phones (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HbYScltf1c) which boils down to without seeing the other person they can't empathize about the effect their words will have on other people. I can't help but wonder how these pseudo-anonymous people will feel when they find out that they aren't all that anonymous in the long run. When gawker unmasked "Reddits biggest troll" Violentacrez he certainly had a change of feelings when he had to stand behind his words and actions[1]. Freedom of speech is one of our most important values and anonymity is an important source for social change and equality for all. Using these gifts to rain down insults on others rarely works out well though in person and likely won't work out well on the internet in the long run either.

[1] http://gawker.com/5950981/unmasking-reddits-violentacrez-the...

TTPrograms7• 11 years ago

I've sort of thought that this was a fairly consistent phenomenon since the origin of the internet, and that as more and more people come online they've been exposed to it and don't think it's reasonable. And to some extent they're right - it's not reasonable. Unfortunately being a public figure, especially by critiquing that phenomena, is going to attract more of that abuse.

It pains me to see people call that sort of thing an issue with the "tech industry", though. Not that the tech industry is perfect, but that grouping in the internet trolls with people who care and want to fix the things that do need fixing is really counter-productive when you're trying to win a war of hearts and minds.

marcus_holmes5• 11 years ago

It's not so much grouping internet trolls with the tech industry, but that the tech industry is having a problem with its troll population.

This might be purely because we're the first out of the trenches... we got the first trolls because we were the first to adopt online communication, and we have the first gamergate because we're still ahead of other industries/communities.

I think we need to associate this sort of thing with the tech industry, because only then will we be able to fix it. Shrugging it off as "universal behaviour" will just mean no-one tries to do anything about it. In order to "un-fuck" this industry, we do need to accept that we do this. You (as an individual) may not and I may not, but we as an industry troll our women and minorities. And until we as an industry accept that we do this (and that it's a bad thing that we need to stop doing) it'll never stop.

icu2• 11 years ago

I see a lot of comments here ranging from support to trolling... since this is HN there is more support and (at last check) only one troll.

And that's really my point. No matter what, if you put yourself and your two cents into the public domain this stuff is part of the territory.

Granted in a perfect world we wouldn't have such trolling or at the very least there would be some authority doing online moderation and sanctioning. However life isn't and will never be fair, let alone the fact that such policing of the net is just not sensible.

So what to do really? Well I subscribe to the belief that an insult is an agreement between two people, if I don't agree, it's nullified, it doesn't even exist and I'm really not bothered.

Clearly this stuff is getting to her and after reading her blog post it really seems like it's affecting her emotionally. At the risk of being blunt, I think this will just encourage the trolls.

IMHO she either goes forward with a belief structure that deals with the trolling or she (sadly) takes a break from being in the public eye.

jessaustin3• 11 years ago

You have a good attitude about insults aimed at you. However, many people have lived lives that make such a healthy attitude impossible for them. I don't think progress is served by saying, "well it sucks that little girls are taught to stay 'safe' by taking the opinions of fuckwits seriously but I didn't teach them that so tough shit!" I doubt there's a magic bullet, but it would be better if we could build communication mechanisms that didn't expose women to the vilest excretions of the world's collective mental sewer.

icu2• 11 years ago

Hi, well firstly it saddens me somewhat that you think I was suggesting that, as you put it, "well it sucks that little girls are taught to stay 'safe' by taking the opinions of fuckwits seriously but I didn't teach them that so tough shit!"

Honestly for me it's not about sex. I believe men and women are in fact equal and anything less than that is ignorance.

As for a 'silver bullet', there won't ever be one. Best I can do is teach my son gender equality.

aaronem5• 11 years ago

Here's the part where I play a serious suggestion off as a joke, because I know no one will take it seriously no matter how I put it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuBWbpTJRqk

And here's the part where I address obvious arguments against it, to try to save everyone some time:

0. You're seriously suggesting that people who threaten, sexually harass, or otherwise behave toward women in tech, in such fashion as to (at the very least) necessitate posts like Ms. Frazelle's, should be doxxed, confronted in person, and beaten.

Doxxed and confronted in person, certainly. But let's not lose all sense of nuance; I think beatings for a first offense are a little disproportionate, unless the first offense is itself exceptional.

1. This is vigilantism!

No, this is a community choosing to police itself in a more vigorous fashion than has previously been the rule. Vigilantes, historically speaking, tend to (literally and figuratively) shoot first and ask questions later, if at all. I think that's wildly disproportionate here, and that the mere suggestion of potential real-life consequences, for this sort of malbehavior, will almost certainly produce a remarkable change in the extent of bullshit that women in our industry find aimed in their direction.

2. This is a problem for the police to handle!

Let me know when they start!

3. Doxxing is a crime!

Some actions which might be taken in the course of a doxxing attempt are crimes, to be sure. But you might be surprised how much you can lawfully, with a little effort, learn about someone who doesn't put a lot of thought into anonymizing himself because, after all, who's going to come after him for something as trivial as trying to chase someone out of an entire industry because she happens to be female?

4. Assault is a crime!

Oh, certainly. I think it's entirely possible to have a reasonable conversation with someone, in the course of which is offered advice on patterns of behavior which would be frankly better for everyone involved, without trespassing into the realm of assault proper.

5. Battery is a crime!

It sure is. And, of course, all dry sarcasm and deadpan humor aside, I would absolutely never encourage anyone to commit a crime.

On the other hand, I grew up in a place and a time where anyone who behaved in too excessively unacceptable a manner did so at risk of receiving more than merely verbal chastisement from the members of his community; put simply, someone who made himself enough of a stench in the nostrils of his fellows, for long enough, could expect them eventually to respond to his misbehavior in vigorous enough fashion to leave bruises.

In no small part as a result, the place and time where I grew up were, and the place largely remains, known for the politeness and courtesy characterizing social interaction there, and such methods as I allude to above are hardly ever actually necessary in practice; for the most part, the simple knowledge that such a response might occur suffices to prevent it actually needing to.

Granted, very few in the tech industry have personal experience of such robust social interactions, and I think I don't go too far in saying that there's a certain squeamishness around the subject. On the other hand, given that nothing else yet tried has worked worth a damn, I think we'd be short-sighted to dismiss such ideas entirely out of hand.

6. Two wrongs don't make a right!

Perhaps, but I've never understood the perspective from which it is wrong for members of a given society to correct misbehavior which fails to live up to that society's avowed standards.

Of course, given the rather pathetic extent of our industry's accomplishments in preventing the kind of behavior under discussion here, anyone could be excused for imagining that, collectively, we don't give as much of a damn about this kind of abhorrent behavior as we claim we do.

7. Women don't need this sort of white-knighting from men in the industry!

Perish the thought! Frankly, I am too often embarrassed and ashamed to admit myself a member of an industry where behavior such as this is acceptable to any extent -- even by the people who actually engage in it. That I should, even in jest, feel myself moved to write a comment like this one, is frankly mortifying.

Put simply, if our industry were composed of the professionals we flatter ourselves it is, I wouldn't have written this and you wouldn't be reading it. If you feel yourself personally insulted by that statement -- good! You should, because you, too, bear a share of the responsibility for letting such abhorrent behavior run effectively unchecked.

There's too much of that behavior, too widely spread, for anyone to argue that it's "just a few bad apples". Our industry has a problem. As members of that industry, we have a responsibility to address it. Some of us are trying to live up to that responsibility. Most of us aren't. I'd like to see that change.

8. But this kind of response will just make things worse! Even if you do confront this scum in person, they'll just take it out on the women they're already abusing.

That's not impossible, but I think it's also not at all likely. It's long been recognized that anonymity is tremendously empowering, for good or ill; the perceived absence of risk seems to be what drives a lot of the venom we see directed at women in our industry. Too, if anonymity weren't a major enabler here, we would see the people who spew this filth doing so under their actual identities, and likely in public, as well.

That being the case, I think taking that cloak of anonymity away should have a very strong effect on the people who engage in this kind of behavior. In short, I should think it'd scare the hell out of them!

It's one thing, after all, to talk shit when you know you won't ever have to live up to it. It is quite another to talk shit when you can be reasonably sure that you will. In my own experience, and in my observations of others, this latter condition tends to result in a healthy degree of circumspection, something I think is long overdue here.

9. But you can't change people's minds this way, only their behavior! They'll still find ways to mistreat their female colleagues -- they just won't be able to be as overt about it.

True enough, but also an example of the perfect as an enemy of the good. And besides -- honestly, if someone's an asshole enough to do this kind of shit, he's already using whatever other methods of abuse he has at hand. Just because we can't take all of them away at once doesn't mean that taking away a cheap, easy, and disproportionately filthy one isn't worth doing.

--

And, of course, there are all kinds of hairy details I haven't addressed here, not least because I'd like to think I can keep at least one or two people reading all the way to the end. Lest we forget, this comment is written entirely in jest, and any extent to which you take seriously anything herein is entirely your responsibility.

Even if you think it's totally stupid and wrongheaded, though, I'd take it as a favor if you respond by offering a suggestion which

a) hasn't been already tried and found useless,

b) offers some prospect of success, and

c) isn't just more of us all sitting around beating our gums about how terrible this is, while largely not bothering to try to do a damn thing about it.

Come on! This is our industry. This kind of rampant shitty behavior is our responsibility. It's up to us to find something effective to do about it, and do it. Sure, I've made a stupid suggestion, but at least I've made a suggestion. If you want to tell me my suggestion is stupid, great! When you're done doing that, make a sensible one.

Kenji• 11 years ago

I already thought this was something of importance, like, talking about a bubble or concerning trends in the industry. What I got was an emotional rant of someone who got trolled. Our digital media have more than enough possibilities to blacklist the baddies, or even whitelist the people you want to be in contact with. Don't look at things you don't want to see, nobody is forcing you to.

lazzle• 11 years ago

Bet I can force you to look at this reply

bcg12• 11 years ago

You can say 'this isn't a problem with our industry, it is just internet trolls' but people outside our industry aren't going to docker conferences or paying attention to presenters at them.

It might not be YOU that does this type of thing, but someone you work with is. You know who I'm talking about and you don't shun them or expose them... and until you do, author is correct, this industry is fucked.

JoeAltmaier• 11 years ago

But how do any of us know what online presence others we work with have? I don't pay any attention to what my co-workers do on their own time. They may be jerks in quite a few arenas; it can be quite invisible to me.

bcg12• 11 years ago

My comment does not apply to those for whom it does not apply.

alaroldai4• 11 years ago

Every time I see posts like this, I see people commenting on it with varying statement to the effect of "that's a shame, but most people in tech aren't like that", or "I'm so tired of seeing posts like this, quit making a fuss."

And that makes me so angry.

Sure, maybe not everyone in the industry is an arsehole. But enough people are, and those people are vocal enough, that a significant number of people feel disgusted and threatened. That should be enough to tell you that even if the majority are lovely people, the industry as a whole still has a problem.

(also, for anyone wondering whether the number of people affected really is "significant", I would consider even one person to be a significant number)

I also get really angry at posts like "This has never happened to me, so I'm sure it's all ok". This may come as a surprise, but individual experiences are not universal. That something has never happened to you doesn't mean it's never happened to anyone else.

And if you're getting tired of seeing posts like this, don't complain about the people making the posts. Complain about the people harassing them. It may seem counterintuitive, but the fastest and most effective way to stop posts like this turning up is actually to make more of them, until the harassment and abuse stop.

"This happens all the time" is never a valid excuse.

bsder4• 11 years ago

Every time I see posts like this, I see people commenting on it with varying statement to the effect of "that's a shame, but most people in tech aren't like that", or "I'm so tired of seeing posts like this, quit making a fuss."

I'm tired of people whining in a blog post instead of calling the police.

Death threats and violence threats like this are unacceptable. CALL THE POLICE. After a couple of high-profile cases put these kinds of assholes in jail it will stop.

cjbprime• 11 years ago

Death threats and violence threats like this are unacceptable. CALL THE POLICE. After a couple of high-profile cases put these kinds of assholes in jail it will stop.

What evidence do you have that the police will do something? We could look at people like Brianna Wu and Anita Sarkeesian, who I feel confident we'll agree have experienced massive and credible death threats. They report the threats they get to the police and FBI. Who's in jail as a result?

GFK_of_xmaspast• 11 years ago

Since when do the police care about online harassment?

__z3• 11 years ago

What makes you think she didn't call the police?

http://www.psmag.com/health-and-behavior/women-arent-welcome...

"Two hours later, a Palm Springs police officer lumbered up the steps to my hotel room, paused on the outdoor threshold, and began questioning me in a steady clip. I wheeled through the relevant background information: I am a journalist; I live in Los Angeles; sometimes, people don’t like what I write about women, relationships, or sexuality; this was not the first time that someone had responded to my work by threatening to rape and kill me. The cop anchored his hands on his belt, looked me in the eye, and said, “What is Twitter?”"

wpietri11• 11 years ago

One, demanding that the victims do extra work to solve the problem is problematic in that it shifts the burden onto people who are already having a hard time. (If you think this can be easily solved, volunteer to deal with the police for someone. Or just pay for someone to act as an advocate.)

Two, if you were paying attention to previous victims of online harassment, you'd know that police generally don't give a shit, and when they do, it's an extremely hard case to pursue.

Three, if you're tired of people talking about their lives on their blogs, don't read their blogs. You coming on here to whine about other people supposedly whining is ridiculous. There are plenty of us who actually want to solve these problems and are glad when people post.

TTPrograms7• 11 years ago

That should be enough to tell you that even if the majority are lovely people, the industry as a whole still has a problem.

Is that really the case, though? If there's a violent criminal in a town, does the town as a whole have problem? Is the whole town to blame for the acts of that individual?

We should do what we can to stop this sort of abuse and make things better, but why do we have to spend so much time allocating blame to everyone in same field of work?

alaroldai4• 11 years ago

If we're doing what we can to stop this sort of abuse, there's nothing to blame us for.

If we're spending our time trying to sweep these issues under the rug, maybe there is.

bato• 11 years ago

To continue along your analogy, that would be akin to the local population saying "there's need to involve police forces, it's only the one guy" "Just because there's a violent criminal in town doesn't mean we have to do anything about it, we're on the whole nice people"

Instead of you know, assisting the police with their enquiries, teaching their kids it's not ok to slice open people, volunteering for search parties to find the victims, organising groups to walk kids to and from school, etc.

wpietri11• 11 years ago

If there are violent criminals in a town running rampant and unaccountable, then yes, the whole town has a problem. How could you think otherwise? Every municipal election I've seen or read about touches on crime and response to crime.

why do we have to spend so much time allocating blame to everyone in same field of work?

We only spend a lot of time on this because every time somebody talks about their actual experience, eight zillion dudes pop up to shout, "#notallmen"! Or to demand that the problem be proven to them right this instant with detailed studies in top journals. Or to say, "why are we allocating blame" when nobody was in fact blamed.

The tech industry has a problem. Do others? Possibly, but I don't care. Other people can worry about fixing their own industries. I'm going to worry about fixing mine. But it's not going to start getting better until people admit that there's a problem.

mholt2• 11 years ago

It may seem counterintuitive, but the fastest and most effective way to stop posts like this turning up is actually to make more of them, until the harassment and abuse stop.

You have evidence to back this up? Honest question.

alaroldai4• 11 years ago

Actually, no. But I can't believe that ignoring the issue is going to be more helpful than bringing attention to it.

astrocyte6• 11 years ago

It makes you angry to think? Is this the modern day internet in which lots of individuals say stupid things to get a rise out of people (troll for the lulz)? or is it a tech industry problem

Turn your base emotions off for a second and try to use your higher level brain facilities to target the actual root of this.

I'm an african-american in tech. Lots has happened to me. What has ever happened to you such that you can relate?

So, you're emotional.. angry about someone trolling a woman. So, you're going to go on an irrational rampage and fight any man to death who tries to bring clarity to the issue beyond your emotional white knighting?

Cheers man.. you're no better than the trolls who function on the same base instinct. Rise above it. This isn't the stone-age.

magicalist4• 11 years ago

So, you're emotional.. angry about someone trolling a woman. So, you're going to go on an irrational rampage and fight any man to death who tries to bring clarity to the issue beyond your emotional white knighting? Cheers man.. you're no better than the trolls who function on the same base instinct

Yes, we call this sort of thing a straw man.

I do enjoy, however, that the OP is blogging "because she feels she's the center of the world"[1], alaroldai is an irrational, rampaging white knight, but you're just bringing clarity to the issue. No, you don't seem irrationally invested in the issue in the slightest.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9836257

generic_user2• 11 years ago

Sure, maybe not everyone in the industry is an arsehole. But enough people are, and those people are vocal enough, that a significant number of people feel disgusted and threatened. That should be enough to tell you that even if the majority are lovely people, the industry as a whole still has a problem.

There is not one "person in this industry" that was named or identified here. To project that anonymous internet trolls are "the tech industry" says more about how you view the tech industry then the industry itself or the people in it. What needs to stop is blanked condemnations of an industry, any industry because someone gets nasty tweets or emails. I got nasty email therefore the tech industry is responsible is not credible. Anyone regardless of who you are or what you do can end up with a mailbox full of nasty emails for innumerable reasons.

wpietri11• 11 years ago

This is a strongly gendered phenomenon. Prominent women in tech have an entirely different experience than prominent men in tech. (This is mostly true for non-prominent people as well.) This comes up over and over and over.

But by all means keep clouding the issue in hopes of not having to talk about it.

beloch• 11 years ago

The problem is, just one person like this is "enough" to really mess people up. You can have hundreds of normal, positive interactions in a week and it just takes one a$$hat to make you forget all that. Thanks to the internet, one guy can ruin hundreds of other people's days. He (or she) can do it anonymously and safely from a great distance. For the overwhelming majority of us, there simply are no barriers to prevent this. We routinely filter out nuisance emails from Nigerian princes but very few people try to filter out the crazies.

Most of us, if given the chance to have our messages filtered, would choose not to do so. Most people are eager to please and want to know when somebody is unhappy so they can fix it. Only people in the most visible positions are faced with such a deluge of crap that they're forced to do something about it. For the average person, the aberrant attention that comes from a small amount of exposure, such as a conference talk, is just big enough to throw us for a loop but not so big that we'd think about taking steps to never see that stuff. This isn't only a problem for women. Men face it too.

Perhaps the time has come to approach harassment the way we approach spam. Namely, make it easy to report personal attacks so that we can start using the same techniques that block spam to block harassment.

zaccus• 11 years ago

IDK, she's talking about hundreds of vile personal messages. Sounds like more than one a$$hat to me.

And I can't help but notice that as a man I don't get this kind of abuse at all. Literally 0 rape threats. I think when this kind of thing happens it should be called out. Sunlight is a great disinfectant.

vilmosi2• 11 years ago

>> That should be enough to tell you that even if the majority are lovely people, the industry as a whole still has a problem.

I'm not disagreeing with you. But...

Isn't that true with everything? Is the medical industry fucked because some doctors are getting sued for malpractice? Is accountancy fucked because some accountants embezzle money? Are teachers fucked because some guy fails students who look like his ex?

I mean come on. These attitudes are in no way productive and the only reason the above post exists is to attract attention, not to fix anything.

adamlett• 11 years ago

Your examples all have something in common which is that the harm is caused indiscriminately by which I mean that there is I reason to think that any one group of people is affected more than any other. In other words they are like car accidents. Everybody has a roughly equal chance of being affected and therefore everybody has the same incentives to fix or not fix the problem. But when some problem affects a particular group of people disproportionately and when that group is itself powerless to fix the problem, well then the situation is fucked. Especially if those who do have the power to fix the problem instead choose to wash their hands of it.

corysama4• 11 years ago

There is a small culture of people online who make a hobby of harassment. They don't have an agenda. They aren't representative of anything. They're not distinguished by being part of any particular industry, race, sexuality or economic status. They are simply selfish individuals.

They do it because it gives them little endorphin pops to think about how upset their victim must be and because it is a very low risk activity. That's all there is to it. They don't particularly care about "women in tech" or "women in gaming" to any extent beyond the fact that the controversy gives them a hook they can latch on to dig a reaction out of their victim. Or infinitely better: the press!

The only way to prevent this activity is to attach a small but concrete level of risk to it. Quoting the article that chuckcode linked about Reddit's "Violentacrez":

"My wife is disabled. I got a home and a mortgage, and if this hits the fan, I believe this will affect negatively on my employment," he said. "I do my job, go home watch TV, and go on the internet. I just like riling people up in my spare time."

vonklaus5• 11 years ago

There is a small culture of people online who make a hobby of harassment. They don't have an agenda. They aren't representative of anything. They're not distinguished by being part of any particular industry, race, sexuality or economic status. They are simply selfish individuals

I wish more people understood this. It is a big problem with no solution. We can keep spamposting these tropes of #gurlgamers and #womenintech but the problem isn't really that these arenas are overtly hostile to women. The problem is that if you are in these arenas you are just more visible to the type of people that enjoy harassing people. I think doxxing is one of the biggest sins on the internet. Anonymity and privacy are fundamental pieces of American and Internet culture.

Doxxing someone is really the only way to stop these things happening, and even then they must actually care about what society thinks of them. Also, if you are wrong you could ruin an innocent persons life. So no easy solutions. Explaining tolerance and these angry women first campaigns alienate people from the causes. They don't harass women and are normal people. The people that actually do bad things couldn't care any less about this "education" and the flamewars this stuff starts make it all the more funny to them.

This is an insanely hard problem to solve, and it might actually not be possible to fix. The answer might be to have thick skin and hire a security company to put alarms and cameras in your house. It isn't fair to someone like the subject of this article that is an intelligent, attractive, hard working person to be punished for having these attributes, but it is an answer even if not a great one.

purp12• 11 years ago

There are no social problems so large that we can't fix them once we develop the will to do so.

It is a big problem with no solution. [...]

I imagine a lot of the country felt that way about civil rights in the early 1960s. Then https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Act_of_1964 and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Act_of_1968 ... And while it's nowhere near solved, people don't regard cross-burnings and lynchings as matter-of-fact daily occurrences anymore.

This is an insanely hard problem to solve, and it might actually not be possible to fix.

I imagine folks in the mid-1960s thought exactly that of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desegregation; that folks in the 1860s thought exactly that of reuniting the states after https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_civil_war; and that folks in the 1760s thought that of the whole "How can we get the King to listen to us and help us manage our colony in our best interest?" until we did https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Declaration_of_I... and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolution

There are no social problems so large that we can't fix them once we develop the will to do so. We don't develop the will until we admit that these problems are tractable.

So let's fix it.

ap22213• 11 years ago

I've worked with some weird ass people over the years, so this post is, sadly, not surprising.

shockzzz2• 11 years ago

The reason why "trolls gonn' troll" isn't an acceptable excuse is that straight white men don't get told that people are jerking off to their conference talks.

Just google "Kathy Sierra" and see why.

brickmort• 11 years ago

just wondering... why are you singling out only white males? I'm a non-white male.

shockzzz2• 11 years ago

Same reason I mentioned sexual orientation - they factor into how people are treated. And yes, different permutations are affected in their own unique ways as well.

For the record, I am also a non-white male.

jrub• 11 years ago

There are so many people in the tech industry that have no business being there, that suck and have no passion, that are assholes and aren't willing to teach newcomers. The fact that women in tech is an issue or that women get harassed by men for being in the industry when there are more glaring issues is an absolute mystery.

Men that harass women for being in the tech field are juvenile. If anyone talks to my daughter like that, or sends her messages like that...God help them.

eruditely• 11 years ago

requires proof to damn an entire industry, give me a break

plorg2• 11 years ago

Given the responses I see here, it seems pretty obvious that this is a 'problem with the industry' regardless of whether it's a problem with or that sprouts from the internet.

It seems evident that Jess has experienced terrible things in the process of performing her job. That she would post so adamantly to her blog suggests that the problem is not going away, and she is probably not receiving much of a helpful response from the people around her, presumably including her colleagues. The obvious implication is that as male-dominated industry, most of her (male) colleagues are not familiar with the type of abuse she is receiving and, when they hear of it, are dismissive, taking an attitude of 'not my problem/job description' rather than offering support or assistance.

If that doesn't make it an industry problem, I don't know what would.

shykes6• 11 years ago

Hi, I'm a colleague of Jess. I entirely agree with everything you said about the industry as a whole. My thoughts in this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9836573

But you should know that her colleagues (me included) take this super seriously, and so does our employer. We are doing everything we can to support her, and to make the attacks stop. We also want to contribute to fixing the problem beyond this one instance, and are looking for the best way to do that. If you have ideas I would love to hear them!

plorg2• 11 years ago

My apologies for suggesting that you would be callous and unsupportive of a colleague in such a stressful situation. It's easier to understand how this connects the industry to such abuses by bringing one's company into the discussion, but you are right that it is unfair to you and her other colleagues who I know no better than Jess herself.

But I'm glad to hear that you would take this seriously. And Jess sounds like a hell of a person. I know it would be difficult for me to handle the kind of abuse she describes.

shykes6• 11 years ago

I am a colleague of Jess, and have witnessed her dealing with this ordeal. She is a badass and doesn't need anyone to speak on her behalf. But some aspects of her experience are relevant to all of us and we have to talk about it.

1. If this is happening to you and you haven't spoken to anyone about it - please do. There is a specialized support group at https://www.crashoverridenetwork.net . Even if you feel you can handle it yourself, it will help spread awareness. Part of the problem is that not enough people are aware of just how common these attacks are.

2. This is real. She is not making it up or dramatizing it to "get attention". How incredible is it that in 2015 this needs to be said? In fact she has downplayed the whole thing for months (months of continuous harrassment!). At first I didn't understand why - but seeing some of the reactions here, sadly, I think I understand.

3. Yes, law enforcement is involved. Those people are breaking the law and must face the consequences. The good news is that they are likely to get caught. Unlike other forms of cyber-crime, this particular crime id actually quite risky if the victim is determined and well-supported. The people tracking them down are well funded and have a great track record. Speaking for her employer, we will spare no expense to make sure the people responsible get what they deserve.

4. In addition to law enforcement, if you know of a legal way to help make those people regret what they did, please contact me. Our employer will foot the bill - or if it's really too expensive for a single private company to fund, I will find money elsewhere. Forgive my French but: let's make the motherfuckers pay. This also applies to increasing the risk for future crimes like this.

5. It's true that this kind of trolling is probably not a product of the tech industry itself. It is a deeper problem that will haunt us for some time, like racism, drug abuse or road rage. HOWEVER, after reading some of the comments here, without a doubt our industry is contributing to the problem through ignorance and sometimes plain stupidity. If you're downplaying this as "just trolling", asserting that gender has nothing to do with it, complaining that women are getting unfair attention, or assuming the victim is just trying to get attention: I'm sorry to say you are part of the problem, in the same way that climate change skeptics are part of the problem. You are not voicing a valid opinion; you are ignoring facts collected over years of research and professional experience by people who know better than you. And in the process you are forcing us to keep debating the reality of the problem, when we should be focused on fixing it. So when Jess says "this industry is fucked", I say: she is right. We're allowing our fellow technologists to be victimized right under our noses, and we're basically doing nothing. So let's fix it.

6. With the help of the comic artist Laurel (who has also experienced harrassment) we made a T-shirt to raise awareness. We're going to print and share as many as possible, but if you want to pribt your own, here's the hi-res PSD: https://www.dropbox.com/s/5ikdlu6gavn669l/s-dockercon-harras...

vonklaus5• 11 years ago

You are not voicing a valid opinion

I'm not sure how an opinion could be invalid? Maybe to another, but obviously not to the person who has that opinion.

asserting that gender has nothing to do with it

Of course it does in her case. I feel bad for her, and it totally sucks. However, this is what trolls do. They troll people for various illogical reasons.

So let's fix it.

I am not trying to be rude, but this is so naive it is painful. You can't do anything to stop trolls online, especially intelligent technically proficient ones. You can behave respectfully and enforce societal norms in your own office and daily life. That is all you can do. Be a good person in real life and hold people to a reasonable standard.

purp12• 11 years ago

You can't do anything to stop trolls online [...]

So painfully wrong. There are many things you can do, including not giving up and walking off. You just have to decide you've had enough and are willing to do hard work.

Speak out, even when it's not in your own best interest.

Support people who are targeted.

And, last but not least, don't pick pedantic points to argue while losing sight of the main issue: it absolutely stinks to be a woman in tech.

So let's fix it.

delcypher• 11 years ago

Doesn't look like it's been mentioned yet but there is very related project called Online Abuse Prevention Initiative (OAPI http://onlineabuseprevention.org/). It would be a good idea to talk to them in addition to what you are already doing.

It was covered on FLOSSWeekly earlier this year (https://soundcloud.com/twit/floss-weekly-331-oapi).

shykes6• 11 years ago

Noted, thank you!

chroma3• 11 years ago

I would strongly advise against backing OAPI. The CEO & founder is Randi Harper. Her online persona is quite hostile, and she is often the instigator of online harassment. One of my acquaintances was the target of her ire. Her e-mails and call-outs eventually caused him to seek psychiatric help, including medication.

So while I support the goal of OAPI, I think the founding members have attitudes that hurt the cause more than help it. I wish there was an organization I could recommend instead, but so far I haven't found anything. If anyone knows of alternatives, I'm all ears.

codybrown• 11 years ago

Sometimes I wish I could save all of my upvotes then use them on a comment like yours. Thank you. This point of view is so sorely needed on HN.

thaJeztah• 11 years ago

Thanks so much for writing this up. Happy to help getting those shirts out. Let me know if there's any way I can help out, with the shirts, or any other way. This just has to stop.

rjbwork2• 11 years ago

I don't really get what is going on here. Why are people spamming her with death/rape threats? There doesn't really seem to be any context given. Is it literally that someone decided that she was a good harassment target for completely unknown reasons? Why is she a notable figure?

shykes6• 11 years ago

Obviously it's hard to know for sure. But most likely this is the work of "harassment hobbyists" who have no particular agenda other than the moronic thrill of messing with people from the safety of their keyboards. There is a great explanation elsewhere in this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9836242

Most likely, Jess appeared on their radar because she is a very active and popular maintainer of Docker, a high-profile (and occasionally controversial) open-source project. She is known for impressive and sometimes hilarious hacks using Docker, witty and informative technical articles, and for contributing a great deal to the friendly and welcoming atmosphere of the Docker community. In short: she is awesome.

Jamie_Dobson_CS• 11 years ago

I think the question for many will be, 'how to fix it'?

As people who run businesses, we can work on policies and culture. As events organisers, we can spread the word and raise awareness. As writers, we can write about this.

In answer to point 4, in terms of legal, you can always sue people for harassment. That's also a way of bringing attention and raising awareness. That might not be what the victims of trolls want, however, and you have to balance any needs for revenge against other people's needs to get on with their lives.

I know we have a zero tolerance approach to this stuff. But we are not a police force - the web is the perfect for helping people to be anonymous.

behemphi• 11 years ago

To the physical aspect of Solomon's point number 1. I have taught self defense in the past for years.

Rule #1:

Don't be in the situation.

Interpretation:

Obviously don't walk down a dark alley alone. But in this context, don't deal with it alone. Be sure people know you are in danger. Surround yourself with colleagues, friends and those whom you trust. Solomon is spot on: Don't be alone physically, emotionally, professionally.

Predators first isolate prey from the herd. Be smart enough to recognize this and avoid it.

And please, if a situation feels sketchy, remove yourself. Stubborn does not equal heroism. Be proactive with your safety and well being. It is yours.

Our Industry:

Our industry is _not_ fucked. I am part of that industry and I refuse to be characterized thusly.

I can sympathize with Jesse's indictment of the industry as a whole and do not cast aspersion on someone in her situation reacting as she has. I am sorry that it came to that level of frustration, pain, fear for her.

However we who are _not_ experiencing the stress of such a terrible situation are obliged to keep a level head. As a group we need to recast the cause of her frustration (and that of others in similar situations) into something more effective. Individual people in our industry are fucked. Let's identify these individuals and remove them from our industry.

Finally, to echo on another of Solomon's key points: Let's do it legally.

Thank you to Docker for seeking to identify these _individuals_ and prosecute them.

fak3r• 11 years ago

I want to help raise awareness to show that we stand with people like Jess who are having to deal with this bullshit. Where can we order the t-shirts? We must make it clear that this kind of bs will be met with fierce resistance from now on.

throwaway3880• 11 years ago

I used to engage to in this sort of behavior to some extent. I grew up with a repressed sexuality and no knowledge of how to relate to women. Then, I suffered endless social rejection. I spent all my time in front of computers, and got good at programming.

We need to educate people (1) How to relate to other, respectfully (2) How to get over their anger (3) Tell them this behavior is unacceptable

Tech has many misfits. There are many guys, who've spent their lives in front of computer screens, and haven't developed healthy ways of relating to other people. Yet, they can still be great at technology with the power that brings.

MetaCosm• 11 years ago

Thank you. I have long wanted to speak to someone who admits to doing this type of thing as it is very hard for me to understand.

I realize it might be painful to relive a bit, but would you be willing to go into some more detail (it is a throwaway anyway). What did you do, what were you thinking as you did it, and how could someone have reached you sooner to do 1/2/3?

tzs8• 11 years ago

Several thoughts, some reasonable and some probably stupid, split into separate comments so the reasonable parts can be discussed and the stupid parts torn apart separately:

tzs8• 11 years ago

Part 4.

We need to start including some internet human interaction training in high school or elementary school. This should cover two things.

First, it should cover how the person on the other end of an internet interaction is another person, with feelings, and so we should keep that in mind. It should cover how it is easy to forget that, and so say things online we'd never say to someone's face.

Second, since that isn't going to stop the problem, people need to be warned about the jerks who like to harm people for the sake of harming them (see part 1), told that they are likely to encounter such people at some point, and get shit directed at them. They need to be told to not take it personally, the senders are not mentally well, and just filter their messages out.

tzs8• 11 years ago

Part 3.

Since the power that the attackers have in these messages is the reaction of the recipient, it might be possible to turn this around. In part 2, I suggested filtering and trashing (or sharing for research into de-anonymizing the senders). How about going beyond ignoring the empty idiots and embracing their idiocy?

Make a game of this. Have a scoring systems where you get points based on the number of threats you receive a month, with bonus points for photoshops and such. The person with the most cumulative points for the year could get an award and a nice prize for being best at annoying internet idiots.

This is reminiscent of one way that the KKK was fought. The "Superman" radio show in the late '40s ran a 16-episode story in which Superman took on the KKK. They presented the KKK as an organization of ridiculous people with silly and stupid rituals, and it greatly hurt the KKK.

forgottenpass4• 11 years ago

Since the power that the attackers have in these messages is the reaction of the recipient, it might be possible to turn this around.

Yes, but not by using the mechanism you go on to describe. You simply have to show the harasser that their harassment doesn't bother you. The points system won't convey that to a troll. Worrying about trolls enough to join into such a system validates, not defuses, their efforts.

tptacek3• 11 years ago

I think there is a material disconnect from your experience of "idiotic harassment" and the experience of most victims of harassment. For many, perhaps most --- bearing in mind that you don't hear lurid details of most peoples' experience! --- it's not a game, at all.

tzs8• 11 years ago

Part 2.

These kind of email threats are overwhelmingly empty, in the sense that the person sending them is almost certainly not actually going to come over and do the things threatened [1]. Their power lies entirely in the threat itself.

Consider training your spam filter to recognize these threats and automatically trash them. I would hope your normal correspondence with friends and coworkers, and the correspondence you solicit, is sufficiently free of rape threats and the like that it should be easy for modern filters to separate out the latter.

Actually, don't trash them. Separate them out and make them available to anyone who wishes to study them. If many victims pool their threat data, someone may be able to infer enough to bust the anonymity of some of the senders.

[1] Exception: if you are doing things that will anger the kind of people who are willing to physically harm you even if it means they will likely be jailed or killed, then you need to treat these as real physical threats. For instance, if what makes you prominent on the internet is your work in successfully keeping abortion clinics open in deeply religious states, take threats as being serious physical threats.

tptacek3• 11 years ago

I don't understand why you assume that most threats are empty. Are people who mail you rape threats actually going to rape you? Probably not. Are people who are unhinged enough to send a rape threat capable of harming you in other significant ways? Yes, they are.

tzs8• 11 years ago

Part 1.

It's not really a tech industry thing. It's a more general aspect of humanity. There are a lot of people, who enjoy harming other beings [1] if they can do it without bringing trouble upon themselves. The internet greatly helps these people do that, because it provides a way for them to communicate anonymously.

Since so much of tech industry interaction involves the internet, becoming known publicly in the tech industry will attract this kind of asshat behavior. It's probably not much consolation, but you'll get similar harassment on the internet outside the tech industry, too. Heck, even online chess gets surprisingly nasty when anonymous players are involved.

[1] I said "beings" instead of "humans" or "people" because I think there is probably a connection between the kind of lack of empathy that allows one to try to harm a stranger over the internet and the kind of lack of empathy that allows far too many people to torture animals for the sake of torturing them.

owly• 11 years ago

Forward their comments to the police AND their mothers.

daodedickinson• 11 years ago

Is it wrong to develop technology that facilitates this behavior?

ropable• 11 years ago

Reading posts like this leaves me feeling angry (that it happens at all, this day and age), bewildered (what kind of callous jerkwad sends death/rape threats to a stranger over editorial content) and helpless (what can I do to help or prevent this from happening further?)

I give credit that there is a problem. I genuinely want to help improve things (my daughter might want to follow her old man into this field one day). What can an unassuming white developer do beyond publicly stating "This is unacceptable", and setting the right example of personal behaviour?

zallen2• 11 years ago

That is a very good start.

pikachu_is_cool• 11 years ago

I’ve gotten hundreds of private messages on IRC and emails about sex, rape, and death threats.

Is this actually true, or are you over-exaggerating? I know of other girls in tech that are pretty decently well-known and don't get nearly that much harassment.

But then again, they don't post their faces, so idk.

LGBT_20002• 11 years ago

This is disgusting.

LGBT_20002• 11 years ago

It's offensive how whenever topics of bigotry and hatred in tech come up, the ensuing conversation is always dominated by regular commenters (typically privileged white males) giving their two cents on something they've never experienced and have no way of relating to. Here's a radical idea: if you're actually interested in supporting and being an ally of women, people of color, LGBTQs and other minorities DO sit back, let them speak and listen. DO NOT inject your own unsubstantiated and unhelpful opinions into a topic you by definition cannot relate to.

tomjen32• 11 years ago

You are new here, so I will just say that this isn't tumblr and we do not categorise people based on the color of their skin, nor take kindly to those who do.

vparikh• 11 years ago

I am convinced that this happens because the anonymity that the Internet provides. And so the best way to combat this is to post the incidents on a public site. Blow away the anonymity and these people will retreat like the cowards they are.

I would set up a website where people can post these - sort of like the previous F*cked Company website, but I would have to look into legal issues if any that were relevant.

dummy79532• 11 years ago

I'm convinced that there is a highly vocal group (of young men, most likely) that are hell-bent on breaking Internet communities and even corporeal communities with their grotesqueries. And when they're challenged, they howl "but you're censoring my free speech!"

jongraehl• 11 years ago

1. condolences for some horrifying abuse (please report to cops/FBI/etc) 2. "this industry?" understandable feeling but really a wild accusation that's part of a larger media craze. why shouldn't we analyze the horrifying behavior described in terms of public figures and celebrity in general? what is it about tech in particular? 3. conditional on "this industry" being worse than others, are the causes of abuse toward women who are public figures different from abuse toward men who are the same - relevant as we try to fix what is broken in particular about "this industry" to reduce unexpectedly high abuse toward women and/or men.

505• 11 years ago

Don't give up, Jessie.