The Roland TR-808: the drum machine that revolutionised music

http://www.theguardian.com/music/2014/mar/06/roland-tr-808-drum-machine-revolutionised-music

by mattdennewitz • 11 years ago

127 66 11 years ago

theguardian.com

grimmdude3• 11 years ago

That 808 tho

grimmdude3• 11 years ago

The 808 was cool because it did drumz

grimmdude3• 11 years ago

Blah blah blah...something HN worthy...blah blah blah

andrewtbham• 11 years ago

It is still referenced frequently in rap music.

"That 808 bump makes you put your hands up." - fly like a g6

S_A_P5• 11 years ago

D-Nice used to call himself the TR-808. I always thought that was weird since he never really used them in his music...

Expeditus419• 11 years ago

I was thinking the same. Ironically, their rivalry with Marley Marl and MC Shan was started with the song "The Bridge" which featured a prominent TR-808.

Here's Marley breaking down how he created the beat. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IxUXfhC8TI

sneak• 11 years ago

Kanye has an album titled "808s and Heartbreak".

I'm still waiting for someone in techno to make an album called "909s and Ecstasy".

bgilroy26• 11 years ago

The pre-chorus of Big Boi's The Way You Move features the 808, that song hit no. 1 in 2003

Big K.R.I.T. wrote a 808-themed creation story, and featured the song on his 2014 album, Cadillactica

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIeuw1Ce5pk

S_A_P5• 11 years ago

I've owned a TR-606/TB-303, 2 TR-808s and currently own a TR-8. I bought my first 808 in college in 1998 for 750 bucks. Being a broke college student I sold it to pay for school. After college I bought another TR-808 for 700 in 2003 and kept it for 2 years. I grew bored of the sound, and had taken a decent enough sample set of it to replace it for most uses. The second 808 I had I modded to extend the decay of the kick drum to the point of self oscillation. I also bought a new row of buttons for it. Lastly I added a midi-DIN sync box. I had considered adding a pitch pot on the kick drum but prices were rising to the point that I thought was an 808 bubble(a princely sum of 1600 dollars). Now I see tr-808s on ebay for 3000+ and kick myself.

For anyone interested, the TR-8 does a good job emulating the TR-808/909 for the most part. I find the 808 cymbal(and to a lesser degree the hi-hat) sound nowhere near as good as the original and far less adjustable. The snares don't quite have the snap I hear in my 808 samples. It should be noted though that there was quite a bit of variation from unit to unit in the TR-808. My first 808 had a nice long 2-3 second kick decay, while the second one I owned was about .5 seconds(which is why I did the mod) the hi hat and cymbals are a slightly different pitch as well.

I bought the 7x7-TR8 expansion and while somewhat useful(I like the 707 snare) the 707/727 sounds rarely get any use. The expansion did include some new takes on the 909 kick, snare and non specific clap and snap sounds. I really like to play with the new snap sounds, as it is a cool noise generator effect. I haven't seen any news around this, but it seems silly for them not to do a TR-606/DR-55 expansion pack for the TR-8. I would have bought that over the 7X7 expansion.

There is a TR-808 documentary coming out soon 808themovie.com that will have tons of artist interviews who made their name with the 808. This article did a decent job of naming music that really used an 808, as there was one a few months ago that suggested mostly 909 tracks or tracks that may have used 808 samples sporadically in them. I get a bit pedantic about that because to me, you aren't using an 808 if you loaded a drum sampler with 808 sounds. Beastie Boys licensed to ill is a great example of an album made mostly with an 808(but synced up with a sequential circuits drumtraks and possibly a linndrum on one or 2 tracks) By the late 80s, most rap was made on sp-12/1200s and akai MPCs.

swombat• 11 years ago

What I don't understand is why bother owning the hardware these days, other than personal taste? Surely the reproduction of an ancient hardware drum sequencer in today's software should be perfect.

I'm not criticising your preference for using hardware, that's your call. Some people still like to use vinyl, and I guess that's pretty cool. And some people still like to use hardware synths. And so on... but at the end of the day, unless you're doing something on the hardware that is impossible to do with software (e.g. some kinds of scratching could be argued to be impossible to reproduce exactly without vinyls and turntables), it seems to me the only reason to use a hardware 808 is basically personal preference.

Happy to be explained why I'm wrong though. Are there any quantifiable differences between a physical 808 and a software one?

mtinkerhess• 11 years ago

1) Sounds produced by analog equipment cannot be reproduced exactly in software. You can get very close but so far nobody has gotten it 100% right.

2) The physical controls on hardware make the process of creating music more tactile / intuitive / emotional. It's faster to reach and turn a knob than to click on the knob and drag it -- maybe only by a little but when you do that thousands of times it adds up.

3) The constraints of using hardware can be a useful artistic limitation, that actually increases creative output.

louthy4• 11 years ago

Surely the reproduction of an ancient hardware drum sequencer in today's software should be perfect.

Often it isn't. This can be for a number of reasons:

1. Ignoring the 'leaky' nature of components and just assuming that sticking a software oscillator, followed by a low-pass filter, followed by an envelope etc... will be the same as VCO, attached to a wire, attached to a PCB, ...

A lot of old gear needs to 'warm up', it often has inconsistent characteristics from machine to machine, so each one has its own character. Reproducing the effects of the components isn't trivial and can often fail at the extremes (for example: high resonance/low cut off on a TB-303; or the self-oscillation of a Moog filter).

2. When an emulation is running as a plugin (VST, RTAS, AAX), it has to share the host machine with other plugins. Plugins include: other virtual instruments as well as virtual effects plugins and mastering plugins. There's clearly a trade off when the plugin can't use all of the juice that the host has, and therefore their emulations may compromise on time-slicing, or component emulation to save processing time. I use the Universal Audio DSP which emulates a lot of old compressors, tape machines, EQs, reverbs, etc. Some things it's exceptional at emulating (like the Pultec EQ for example), others less so, like the tape emulations.

3. I can't prove this, so take this with a pinch of salt, but there's a 'certain something' that you get from analogue gear, and perhaps that's down to the 'infinite' resolution you get from real physics. Emulations which rely on time-slicing will always create artifacts. I have lost count of the amount of times either I or friends have responded very favourably to an analogue synth or something mixed on an analogue desk (like an SSL).

I personally use a combination of both. The UAD emulations are pretty close most of the time, and remove the need to manage a really difficult device, or spend multiple thousands on a machine that's hard to get. I have a Nord Lead A1, which I would describe as a 'clean analgoue' emulation. It's not trying too hard to repro the real analogue synths, it has its own character. I have the TR-8, which sounds pretty close to the 808 and 909, but I can't help feeling something isn't right. And then I have some real Waldorf analogue synths, and everytime I use them it's like being wrapped in warm marshmellows, it's fantastic and unique in a way that my digital equipment isn't.

It nearly always comes down to a feeling, rather than something quantifiable. But that is also what music is about.

brianobush• 11 years ago

I could talk about the analog nature of synthesizers, but one of the most important for me is direct and tactile control - basically the knobs. E.g., One of my favs is Moog Sub37 synth http://www.moogmusic.com/products/phattys/sub-37

Another benefit is that the machines get me away from my computer.

S_A_P5• 11 years ago

So most software is 95% of the sound. A lot of hardware is nostalgia + purpose + tactile feel. However there is definitely something to the school of thought that hardware is inherently limited vs software and that opens creative windows that staring at a computer screen may not. Since I have owned real 808s I know what they can do and they are certainly romanticized a large amount. However, the 808s sequencer has a small amount of swing to it which is emulated(but able to be disabled) in the tr-8. I've never heard this mentioned in software. Software emulations have very distinct advantages in that most have parameters that can be tweaked far outside of a real 808/whatever analog device. Where this kind of hardware shines is the fact that you know a certain type of beat/sound is easy to achieve. It's that magic moment that you make something original that the hardware wasn't intended for that makes it all worthwhile. I experience that way more often with hardware than software.

crb3• 11 years ago

Surely the reproduction of an ancient hardware drum sequencer in today's software should be perfect.

CD-quality is 44.1KHz sample-rate 16-bit stereo. That's 22us per sample. That's a lot of perceptible quantization error when, it turns out, our pitch, timbre and spacial-placement sensory gear is sensitive down to the microsecond level (google "microsecond phase sensitivity" on that). A drum synthesizer done on a PC is limited to the soundcard's samplerate at output, so it's always going to be perceptibly less real than continuous analog.

smosher_3• 11 years ago

I'm not criticising your preference for using hardware, that's your call. Some people still like to use vinyl, and I guess that's pretty cool.

The sound is incredibly hard to get right in some cases. You can simulate vinyl remarkably well with a timecode record or DJ controller and special software, but: the plugins have extremely limited range compared to the real thing and the controllers require the same investment as a turntable and timecode still needs the turntable. Nearly every used record store and thrift store has a pile of nearly-free records which are ideal for sampling: obscure stuff no one has heard of, ancient stuff that is no longer recognized by today's audience or may have even been obscure in its day.

As for preferring hardware, in my opinion it's the responsible thing to do. Because:

* Say you want to play a show. Are you going to bring a laptop in there and pray it doesn't do something insane, say... auto-discover the wifi, start installing updates during your gig? Or just crash because it has an undiscovered cooling problem an it's hotter than your usual environment with all those bodies dancing around?

* Software tends to cost money too. There are free options, but chances are you will want _something_ in your software setup that isn't free.

* Idiosyncrasies. Just like your audience wants to hear that vinyl sound, producers often want those hardware quirks. A lot of this amounts to fetishism, but sometimes there are more objective reasons.

* Dedicated functionality. Portable instruments. Playable instruments. Jamming on a PC keyboard does not give you the same response as jamming on instrument keys or pads, or whatever the instrument has that is designed to be played. You could buy a controller, but then you're back to buying hardware.

* Workflow is king. Nearly everything software needs a mouse these days. Or a dedicated hardware controller. It's a workflow-killer.

I learned the hard way that I can't produce very well with software. A few years ago I went with a nice portable piece of kit that does a little bit of everything from sampling to synthesis and mixing. When I did that everything changed drastically. I thought about music differently and really started to get my hands on it.

Hardware isn't that costly unless you need to have the most badass kit or a large setup. When my wish-list is complete, mine will have cost me about $1500. A decent laptop + Ableton Live + midi controller would be cost at least that much. That will take you far, but it's not an argument against just buying the hardware instead. Some people work better with software, and that's cool, but for anyone who works better with hardware, the word "preference" only works in the sense that "I would prefer not to have my hand chopped off." It probably goes both ways, but I couldn't tell you about that. ;)

pistle• 11 years ago

It's nit-picky but the bother to owning and the value isn't based on measuring the difference between the software models (which are very good; d16 group's are phenom) and the hardware. It IS the hardware itself. It's the physical thing that you touch and responds directly. It's the case, the buttons, knobs, design.

So you own them because they are the actual thing, not the reproduction. Why do collectors buy original art? They could just buy the print?

Yet, even cooler than just some artwork or other collectible end product, these are cherished tools of creation that are still culturally relevant.

Personal preference vs. sonic value is a false binary. It's so much more than that.

tessierashpool• 11 years ago

I've never owned an 808, but I've owned at least 18 hardware synths and samplers, as well as Live, Reason, Rebirth, and lots of softsynths on iOS.

I hate softsynths on OS X because it's not stable enough. I have two synths that were made in the 1980s and they don't need any software updates to run. You just plug them in and turn them on.

Hardware lasts for a very long time. Software, you don't really buy it, you rent it for the brief lifespan of your computer.

Emulating analog gear is difficult for the same reason that writing software which simulates any real-world process is difficult. TLDR: everything louthy said.

Even emulating digital gear, which logically should be much easier, is still a challenge. I have a Korg Wavestation and a Korg M1. Both are 100% digital. Both are well-emulated in Korg's popular and well-regarded Legacy Collection. But well-emulated isn't the same as exactly reproduced. And Korg supports the Legacy Collection now, but they won't forever.

I can't even trust operating systems to work properly when I install them. I'm not risking my ability to make music on the incredibly widespread incompetence of programmers, even at the best companies on earth, when all I have to do is put down less than $200.

Look at the bug trackers for any open source project from Apple or Google. Apple's still got WebKit bugs around arbitrary cookie resets from at least ten years ago. Or look at iTunes. The demand for programmers is so intense that you can be an utter incompetent and still have a terrific career.

If the best companies on earth can't get their shit together, how on earth is some music company going to do it?

Also, no two 808s ever sound exactly alike. The 808 is still unbeaten when it comes to claps and kicks.

Emulations are getting better and better, but you're never going to get a picture of a sunset which is more beautiful than being there. The only truly, unequivocally successful emulation project ever is the x0xb0x, which "emulated" the Roland TB-303 by taking it apart.

We have two--count 'em, two--analog electrical engineers with too much time on their hands working on this project. An original TB-303 was diassembled and reverse-engineered to verify the schematic. The original transistors were analysed using big expensive curve-tracers to determine their characteristics. We measured every waveform and counted every cycle to give you the best sound...its just like the original because it IS the original.

http://www.ladyada.net/make/x0xb0x/

tomphoolery• 11 years ago

There's a few reasons why I love analog hardware synths:

- Hackability: Hardware is the "open-source" of the music world. If I have the hardware, there's nothing anyone can do to stop me from tweaking it in some way. I can open up any of my synths and solder components to cables in order to patch in CV to various parts of the synth that the manufacturers never intended. Additionally, modular synths are totally DIY and you build each component, then route them in various ways. In fact, much of the allure of hardware synths comes from the ability to run patch cables between components...changing the routing could mean changing the entire sound.

- Personality: Hardware analog synths, especially vintage hardware, have their own personality due to the erosion of their components. Typically, the older a piece of hardware gets, the more interesting and complex its sounds become. The tuning and accuracy of each VCO and VCF are affected over time and this becomes apparent when you leave the synth running for a while (letting it "warm up"). It takes a while, but I've made some pretty amazing sounds using my college's Moog Modular and ARP 2600 (when I still went there). Digital hardware and software synths will always sound the same no matter what year you turn them on. This is great for performers, but it makes old digital gear disposable while old analog gear is valuable.

- Tactile control: You just can't beat the feeling of twisting knobs and hitting pads. It's so god damn fun. Plus, I'm a performer at heart...it's more entertaining to look at someone banging on hardware than it is to see them staring at a computer screen. In fact, myself and several of my peers have been working on a "no-computers" live set in which the entire set is made up of analog synths and no computers are used on stage, to avoid a central point of failure should anything bad happen.

All that being said, I still don't own an 808 and I still wouldn't. Why? Because the 808, while it is analog machinery, is quite limited in its abilities to tweak each sound. You can't just synthesize a drum sound from scratch with the 808, you have to use the 808 kick no matter what. So in my opinion, there's not really a reason to own those old drum machines these days. If you want the tactile control, get a TR-8...the samples in it sound great! If you just want to play with 808 samples, download them from that sample thread on /r/electronicmusic or something. Sounds pretty much the same at the end of the day.

I do own a TB-303 though. There's just nothing else like that original acid sound. The x0xb0x, however, is much more stable and I use that while playing out...keeping the 303 in the studio for when I produce. I'd rather not risk that getting broken because it has a lot of sentimental value to me. Much of my favorite electronic music uses the 303 somewhere in its production.

coldtea4• 11 years ago

What I don't understand is why bother owning the hardware these days, other than personal taste? Surely the reproduction of an ancient hardware drum sequencer in today's software should be perfect.

1) For one, music is about inspiration, and the hardware can be more inspirational -- even if for pure psychological reasons.

2) The tactile feel of the hardware lets you explore it hands on, and is more immediate and rewarding than clicking on a screen (can still be better even from using a modern plasticky MIDI controller with pads, since those are multi-purpose not task specific). With hardware you approach and program stuff differently.

3) Each hardware unit (analog, that is) can have a slightly unique character, from both changes that happened to it over time, and also from slight variations in the production run and compenents (especially in those times). Plugins that try to emulate that that in full (e.g. from self-oscillation to tuning instability to zero-latency filters) exist, but are CPU monsters (e.g. Diva).

4) Hardware also has to be recorded in, which adds another element of coloring to the sound.

5) Beatboxes like this are also nice for live performances (including live programming).

6) Plug-ins are disposable. A hardware unit can go up in price as time goes by.

mbrock• 11 years ago

I don't know anything about drum machines, but I know that generally, translating analog circuits into transfer functions and then into numerical simulations is an Actually Difficult Problem—especially when you consider the need for such simulations to be more than fast enough for real-time.

Some circuits can be "solved" to perfect accuracy, but when you get into non-linear effects like distortion, you no longer have clean mathematical models to implement.

jsnk• 11 years ago

I wrote about TR-808 when I did an article on drum machines in college newspaper a few years ago. (http://iwarrior.uwaterloo.ca/2011/06/01/8761/legendary-drum-...) Hope you find it interesting.

jsmthrowaway• 11 years ago

The TR-808 is up there with samplers and the Amen Break in terms of defining modern music. If you have twenty minutes, there's a wonderful video explaining the Amen Break that I suggest everybody watch at least once:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SaFTm2bcac

blt• 11 years ago

IMO Amen was much more fleeting than the 808. Can't remember the last time I heard Amen in a mainstream track. Amen is super gritty and compressed which limits its style. 808 is an instrument, much more malleable.

agumonkey• 11 years ago

I thought that was the machine behind some Prince tunes, but it's a Linn LM-1 not a TR808. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMad5DLHNOw.

Anyway good read.

acomjean2• 11 years ago

There was/is a software version of said drum machine. Back in mac os8 days, it made me realize how odd it is to try and turn nobs with a mouse. It made me think the interface is hard to use on a computer, unless you had the original hardware and knew how to use it already. It seemed like there should be a better way.

But it was fun.

now touch version on ipad. I haven't tried it but I'm not convinced the knobs work better on touch than they would have on the computer.

https://www.propellerheads.se/rebirth

radley3• 11 years ago

Pros are using Tuna Knobs to add physical knobs to touch screens:

http://www.djtechtools.com/2015/05/07/artist-gear-setup-jame...

acomjean2• 11 years ago

I had no idea those existed, That certainly would solve the problem.

joezydeco• 11 years ago

If you're nostalgic for these kind of drum machines and you're a fan of the old Nintendo Game'n'Watch, you need to check out the stuff Teenage Engineering is creating:

https://www.teenageengineering.com/products/po

radley3• 11 years ago

I'm going to break ranks and say the 909 was the far more revolutionary work horse. The 808 has a very 80s hip-hop / electro sound which was limiting. OTOH, the 909 has a very generalized sound with a strong kick and snare that has supported the bulk of EDM for the last 20+ years.

JonnieCache2• 11 years ago

The 808 bass drum dominates UK dance music as an pitched, melodic sound. Distort it through a cheap desk, sample it with a couple of layers and you're away. Drum and bass and dubstep are both built on a foundation of 808s, even if you cant necessarily pick them out.

Here's a video tutorial of some producers walking you through this technique, with a real 808 and an EMU 6400 ultra sampler:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yheX4yrOOQI

Here's Truly One by Origin Unknown, which uses two 808 samples a semitone apart so that they beat against each other, another of the many many 808 techniques:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNNg6UYoDTI

(What a record. Feel the rush!)

radley3• 11 years ago

Interesting to see the 808 as the foundation of their final kick, but the final result is far from the natural 808 sound. (808 is still a sexy beast tho).

The 909 has been the standard kick for house, techno, et al for a long time with little need for modification.

In the hands of an expert, almost any drum machine can be amazing. For example, I never understood / liked old Alesis drum machines, but wow:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDkjNb7XKsI

ChuckMcM• 11 years ago

For what ever reason I never 'clicked' with the UX of the 808 or the 909. I ended up with the Alesis sr-16 and then later a drum sound module unit. For me, it wasn't until I could program it from my computer that I felt I could tap some of its expressiveness.

kepano• 11 years ago

There's a documentary about the 808 coming out this year: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIS-o_--wqY

Looks amazing.

sosuke• 11 years ago

Also a BBC radio story on it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBvmnqeJWl4

No telling if it is any good though BBC is fairly reliable.

bane4• 11 years ago

The 808 has such a dominant sound in a mix that it almost ends up dictating the rest of the mix and sets such a powerful mood - it's no wonder that it formed the backbone of so many different dance genres. I always preferred the sound of the 909 growing up, but as I get older the 808 continues to stay relevant as a sound even after the 909 has started to sound a little stale. To this day I mentally catalog drum machines as "808-ish" or "909-ish".

The definitive 808 track for me has always been Polygon Window by The Dice Man off of the still absolutely amazing first Artificial Intelligence compilation album, one of the defining electronic music albums ever put together.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVp6NH59d3M

cdcarter• 11 years ago

Can you share a strong example track of the 909 sound? I don't know the difference at all, so I'd love to hear!

louthy4• 11 years ago

Mr Fingers - Can You Feel It

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHwyzz2LMWA

Laurent Garnier - Acid Eiffel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdeVX7UjeIk

Dave Clark - Thunder (This uses very extreme compression on the 909)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMxGHEpdyCs

All three tracks also use the Roland TB-303 Bass Line synth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roland_TB-303

meej• 11 years ago

909 Back Up, by The Weathermen

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDAcHA67OIs

S_A_P5• 11 years ago

Great track. For me the best 808 bass track has to be hold it now hit it on licensed to ill. It's not obscure or cool to think this but it's just a monster beat. Having seen the beastie boys perform this live adds some bias for me though.

spopejoy• 11 years ago

Reminds me of the Aphex Twin "selected ambient recordings 1", was he rocking an 808? Hihats sound the same ...

bane4• 11 years ago

If it's the same as https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xw5AiRVqfqk

then I believe so.

waterlesscloud• 11 years ago

If it helps, "The Dice Man" is really Aphex Twin. He later used "Polygon Window" as another alias for a couple albums.

JonnieCache2• 11 years ago

The accepted wisdom is that the drums on that record come from whatever crappy rompler he had to hand. The sounds may actually be 808 samples.

The important bit of gear on that record is the 4 track tape deck and the alesis reverb, which is what turns everything into that haze of cybernetic bliss.

luisjgomez• 11 years ago

bass drum: 909 >>> 808 Not even close from techno perspective

louthy4• 11 years ago

If dry, I agree (unless you're making dub-techno, in which case the 808 BD is king). But with cunning use of compression and EQ you can do plenty with an 808 BD that would allow it to be used in techno.

S_A_P5• 11 years ago

I am definitely more of an 808 fan but on the surface I would agree that the 909 is a better machine in almost every way. The snare is great. The kick is nice and punchy, but while offering more knobs it's less adjustable. I think if the 909 offered the long kick the 808 has it would have a much larger place in more types of music. For me what kills the 909 is the cymbals and hi hats. They are definitely great for 120-140bpm music but if you slow the tempo to 80-90bpm the machine sounds disjointed and doesn't "flow". When the aria videos came out for the tr-8 the original engineer said that if he were building a new sampled drum machine today he would use the same hi hats and cymbal. I just happen to disagree with that decision. I wish they would have made the 909 100% analog or at least had an option for analog or samples. I think the 909 samples sound really bad.

kubiiii• 11 years ago

I found a TR808 in a garage sale 10 years ago. Nice memories! There is a cheaper alternative with a similar sound and programmation capabilities (althoughfar more cumbersome and no sound tweak possibilities) : the CR8000. All this gear is getting expensive these days, but maybe Roland will follow Korg's lead with the MS20 and rebuild TRs.

The Roland TR-808: the drum machine that revolutionised music

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