10 finger multi-touch UI designed to replace the mouse

by zain • 17 years ago

171 103 17 years ago

aik2• 17 years ago

Pretty cool. I could see my productivity increase from something like that.

th0ma5• 17 years ago

Multitouch innovators should take heed. A lot of the NUIGroup community is centered around hardware innovations, which is cool and all, but we need more and more software!

agazso• 17 years ago

I'm looking forward to use a multitouch touchpad with my desktop keyboard just as I currently do with my laptop. However I will definitely want to keep a mouse also when in need for more precision for tasks like photo editing etc.

10gui seems to be a very cool prototype and I guess that Apple and Microsoft are already working on things like this. I also spotted a weakness of this demo: 10gui uses the little finger to invoke contextual menus. Most of the people who cannot touch type with all ten fingers (and my guess this is about the 99% of all computer users :) will find this uncomfortable.

NathanKP6• 17 years ago

I agree. A ten finger system is going to appeal greatly to those of us who already touch type and are used to using multiple fingers. But I suspect that many people aren't going to be too happy with the coordination required to use such a system.

But I may be wrong. Perhaps when it comes down to it the interface will feel so intuitive that there will be no problems at all. We'll have to wait and see.

timgasper• 17 years ago

That was one of the biggest things I worry about - the learning curve of all the gestures. A mouse and keyboard are quite straightforward in terms of how the operate. A 10GUI interface would require a significant amount of training and practice. At which point maybe yes - it will become completely natural.

saurabh• 17 years ago

It certainly looks cool. I am just not sure about the ergonomics. What would really be awesome is not having to lift my hand at all by switching between touch mode and keyboard mode at a flick of a finger.

mhb• 17 years ago

tl;dw

30 seconds in and they haven't shown it yet?

gjm112• 17 years ago

It's worse than that. The first time they say anything about their interface is at about 2:00. That's extremely vague (it's a multitouch sensor! where your mouse would be!). No more specifics until about 4:00 (windows are arranged in only one dimension). They don't actually show the damn thing until 4:45.

Oh, and all accompanied by the Most Annoying Music In The World.

NathanKP6• 17 years ago

Patience. Any good idea requires a full explanation to build it up. I feel that they did the right thing by contrasting the mouse with their new system because it helped show the benefits of a ten figure multi-touch pad compared with a single point mouse.

viraptor• 17 years ago

I understand you don't read many typical research papers? (5% abstract, 15% introduction, 15% history and justification, then comes the real meat...) I seriously felt like reading another HCI journal while watching this - almost the same structure :)

bryansum• 17 years ago

The video mentions the problem of always having one's hands in the way with a direct interface. This could also be alleviated by moving the hands underneath the display ala the capacitive mouse from Microsoft Research: http://arstechnica.com/hardware/news/2009/10/video-microsoft...

jpwagner• 17 years ago

Phenomenal video.

The ideas are definitely interesting, but I am amazed at the clarity of the presentation.

deyan2• 17 years ago

Thanks for posting, it looks quite interesting. The interface is something that I can imagine myself getting adjusted to (for example, I am a big Opera user and use gestures all the time - once you get used to them they are phenomenal).

I had a similar idea a while ago and might try to implement it this summer as a side project using Johnny Wii's tricks perhaps + Windows 7 (not sure how much of the interface I can pull off). I would be curious to see in particular how tired I am (i.e. my hands) after using such an interface for a while.

CWuestefeld• 17 years ago

That's cool as far as it goes. But what about the keyboard?

The mouse is just one aspect of the computer interaction. I can't remove my keyboard from my desk just to make room for this mouse replacement. The keyboard seems a big barrier (literally!) for getting this device on the desktop.

aik2• 17 years ago

The end of the presentation had an image of a possible solution - basically having the touch pad exist right below the keyboard, just like it is on any laptop built today. Definitely makes the keyboard/touchpad area quite a bit larger though.

extension2• 17 years ago

If you imagine the touch pad being wide but not much taller than the one on a laptop, it starts to seem more practical.

inffcs00• 17 years ago

At the end of the video you can see the multitouch device integrated with a keyboard. :)

catch23• 17 years ago

it seems like the touch system should be able detect where your main 4 fingers are, and then show a rough virtual keyboard in its space with your 8 fingers on the home row automatically. The only thing lacking would be tactile feedback, but that's solvable. If people are accustomed to seeing the 10 dots representing the fingers, it should be easy to provide small visual cues to indicate if you're about to type a letter that isn't what you want.

joe_the_user5• 17 years ago

Indeed, double Indeed, what about the keyboard?

Funny how much of the video seems act as if the mouse was the ONLY way that users actually input information into computers in the last twenty years. But even the newest user is going to be using the keyboard and the more experienced a user gets, the more they use the keyboard. And even more, as computers become a normal part of human society, interfaces pandering to novices will become less important, not more important. The question will change, is changing now, from "how do I use this thing?" to "How can I be more productive with this thing"?

Conside that MOST of the data that users input is going to be text, which a form of discreet digital data. A mouse or manipulative multitouch interface, no matter how well designed, is useless for this because it inherently produces analog input which is then translated to a digit action - dragging a file to the trash versus just pressing the delete key.

Photo editing or moving windows are exceptional cases but UI designers are constantly developing clever ways to do them specifically because they allow all sorts of kinesthetic analogs. Yet none of this solves the problem that this isn't the interface a user wants to do most their tasks.

stcredzero4• 17 years ago

I would like a keyboard like the small Apple aluminum one, but with a multi-touch pad on the side. Also make the pad a small display like the iPhone. Have it switch modes depending on the Application. It would still be great for application switching and contextual menu selection as in the 10Gui video. One could also have a 10-key mode. Widgets could also appear there.

extension2• 17 years ago

It seems pretty obvious to me that the most efficient and intuitive way to manage windows is just a boring list at the bottom/side of the screen, but I do hold out hope, like everyone else, that it turns out to be some flashy zooming 3D multitouch thing.

It is refreshing though, to see research that dispenses with the legacy of GUI convention we've built up over the years, instead of just piling on new features.

bprater• 17 years ago

They've certainly put lots of thought into the design of this device/software. But the whole time I kept thinking: "what about the keyboard?" (Eventually, at the end, they showed the device in a traditional trackpad position below a keyboard.)

I wish they had considered a way to make the keyboard a part of the device. Perhaps an on-screen keyboard, some haptics? The challenge with that part of the input device is that to touch type, you need that spacial reference a keyboard gives you.

tc• 17 years ago

While we're rethinking the human interface, could we please stop staggering typing keys and put frequently used keys like carriage return and backspace under strong fingers? [1]

I was disappointed to see at the end of the 10gui video a concept keyboard with staggered keys and with backspace way over in the corner. If we can't move keyboards past the constraints imposed by mechanical typewriters, what hope do we have at changing the mouse paradigm?

[1] Typematrix is the only keyboard maker I know of that currently does this while still building a relatively standard keyboard (and something that could be integrated into a laptop).

icefox• 17 years ago

If you have a Kinesis Advantage keyboard the backspace,delete space,enter are under your thumbs

RevRal2• 17 years ago

Colemak layout turns your caps lock into a backspace.

This works surprisingly well, but I really wish the spacebar was split in half. And I've always felt shift+spacebar should = backspace.

mjgoins• 17 years ago

I use a keyboard with Control where Caps Lock would be on most keyboards (a sun unix keyboard). That combined with the fact that Control-H is backspace in a standard unix environment means I don't have to reach for the backspace key.

lief793• 17 years ago

Not sure about the final released product, but the fingerworks prototypes were completely customizable.

atlei• 17 years ago

Hmmm.. I actually have both types of products.

The Kinesis keyboard with backspace, ctrl, alt, enter, home etc using my thumb AND the iGesture pad from Fingerworks ( http://www.fingerworks.com/ ) which is a large "mouse pad" where you can use gestures with 5 fingers (and it works for all applications).

The brilliant part is that the iGesture pad fits perfectly on the top of the Kinesis keyboard (the left and right part of the keyboard is separated for ergonomic reasons).

I've had the iGesture for a couple of years now - it will be a sad day when it dies as there are no replacements that I know of....maybe Apple will release a similar "mousepad" in the future ?

zain2• 17 years ago

There's a similar device I read about with a hardware prototype that actually works. It doesn't have the software support of 10gui but it's basically a resistive touchscreen mapped to keypress macros (copy/paste, app switching, etc).

Here's some pictures:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/pauric/sets/72157616093748066/w...

NathanKP6• 17 years ago

Is that the same device? It doesn't look anything like the prototype design in the video.

I also don't see any correlation between Pauric on Flickr and C. Miller of 10/GUI, at least not by exploring Pauric's Flickr profile or Twitter account.

Perhaps you can explain why you think that those images are of 10/GUI's device? How did you find them?

zain2• 17 years ago

You're right. It isn't the exact same device. I ran across it while doing more research on 10gui and mistakenly thought it was by the same person. I updated my post.

Sorry about that.

Semiapies2• 17 years ago

Talk about multi-touch reminds me of a friend's perennial complaint, "The future of interfaces seems designed to screw me over."

He has a congenital deformity of the arms, but he can type (and is one of those clacky-IBM keyboard fetishists). With his feet, he can use mice and controllers. But multi-touch systems are beyond his ability - while he can pivot and shift to type remarkably quickly, he can't get more than one hand on something at the same time. Worse, each hand is effectively only one digit for him.

And then, there are the folks who don't even have his degree of dexterity.

I can't help thinking that it might be a good thing for general interface designers to consider the implications of disabilities for users of these designs, instead of shrugging that off onto providers of interfaces specifically for the disabled.

NathanKP6• 17 years ago

That is a really good point. The software of any future interface will have to include support for older devices and techniques. But this may perhaps be a good thing because it would motivate the specific design of devices that will be more efficient for the disabled simply because it will no longer be possible for them to use the multi-touch interface.

gecko• 17 years ago

Without disagreeing, I also don't think it makes sense to discount potentially massive improvements in user interfaces merely because a portion of the population cannot use them.

joe_the_user5• 17 years ago

No, but his problem actually points to this being a problem for anyone.

It becomes a problem when the machine requires all of my dexterity just to accomplish a given task. I dislike all Apple products specifically because they require mouse operations to accomplish things where Linux and MS interfaces tend to have keyboard shortcuts.

Semiapies2• 17 years ago

I'd be against that; on the other hand, I don't buy that trying to make an improvement for more people than just the fully-dexterous and ten-fingered means some massive sacrifice.

For that matter, I'm dubious that an interface that needs ten fingers to handle shifting between applications constitutes any massive improvement for anyone.

raintrees• 17 years ago

Have dictation systems (like Dragon) gotten any better at switching between dictation mode and command mode?

zacechola• 17 years ago

I'd like to see it with the pad acting as the keyboard, too. though, that's more software implementation, while the video is talking hardware interface.

Although, the problem with that kind of implementation is that it doesn't have the tactile feel of a keyboard. however, iPhone users seem to have acclimated after first bitching about it.

NathanKP6• 17 years ago

I personally think that a real physical keyboard will always be preferred. 10Gui is doing the right thing by putting the keyboard above the multi-touch pad.

lief793• 17 years ago

http://www.fingerworks.com/faq.html

Apparently people could get up to 70 wpm with what could be considered the prior version of this.

For what it is worth, at least when I was involved with it, most people found a keyboard a lot easier to use for rapid typing.

TimothyFitz• 17 years ago

This basically already exist(ed): http://www.fingerworks.com/ST_product.html

Apple bought them up and stopped making their products (but we got multitouch on the iPhone, an interesting trade-off).

lief793• 17 years ago

I had interned with Fingerworks prior to the formal release of the project. The main problem I heard about was the demand cost/issues.

Outside of the proposed UI changes, Fingerworks product did all of this. I still wish I had bought one when I had the chance.

Anyway, if they are serious about getting these made, I believe University of Delaware owns a fair amount of Wayne Westerman's patents, as the basic idea was the premise for his doctorate. He was a professor starting in '99, so that should make them easier to locate.

thomasfl• 17 years ago

A ten finger multitouch pad for desktops makes perfectly sense. The multitouch pad on mac book pro is way more pleasant to use than a mouse, but can't be used with an external monitor.

jodrellblank• 17 years ago

It isn't more pleasant to use than a mouse.

If I have to scrape two surfaces together constantly to use a computer, I'd rather one of them wasn't the most sensitive part of my finger.

RevRal2• 17 years ago

As for a keyboard, why not have the virtual buttons relative to where the the fingers are placed?

As in, place all eight fingers onto the pad and this automatically becomes home row. Simply strike above and below home row. Depending on the finger you moved, it'll know the key you're striking. I rarely have more than one finger off home row, per hand, when typing.

You heard it here first.

izcs• 17 years ago

was thinking the same thing. i think i've something similar before, and something tells me it may not be practical.

TrevorJ2• 17 years ago

Having a non-focused, non-active window arbitrarily take up 1/3 of my viewable monitor at all times would drive me nuts.

It also makes no sense to me to go to the trouble of allowing a user to use all ten fingers, and then restricting application interaction to only two or three fingers. I work in rich, deep applications with tons of controls and buttons, if I'm going to go to the trouble of learning to use ten fingers to navigate a computer, you better allow me to make use of all of them withing the individual programs that I'm using.

stcredzero4• 17 years ago

I think you're onto something. OS interaction/application switching should be simple, and the individual app interaction should be more complex. I think 4 app selection modes are almost too much. 3 is perfect.

Prediction: I suspect that Apple is taking Exposé in exactly this direction.

buro9• 17 years ago

Re: the prediction.

Doesn't it help to have a documented piece of prior art like the Linux demo in this video when it comes to patent defence and implementation on other platforms?

Of course, R. Clayton Miller may have patented too. Or he could see it in the same vein as the safety match and just record it to give it away.

TrevorJ2• 17 years ago

The real logical gap in the thinking here is that they are focusing on replacing the mouse but in reality, they are in fact replacing functions that can be executed simply and quickly with a keyboard. Application switching etc can be done efficiently with a keyboard. At the very least I question the wisdom of moving away from the modifier key paradigm because it is an elegant and easy method of interaction.

I also believe that as we engage more and more of the body in a control interface, for it to be natural it is going to need to mimic real-world interaction so that we can rely on our lifetime of experience interacting with physical objects.

The better solution in my opinion would contain:

-2 mirrored screens so that the one under your hands can be glanced at for reference as well.

-A UI approach that allows you to interact with objects and windows in the same ways you would with real objects. (Grabbing the edges moves the window, pushing down on it 'sticks' it in place, etc.)

da5e• 17 years ago

I wonder if they could with a tap bring up an virtual keyboard on the touchpad were the fingers already are and do away with a keyboard altogether. This sort of harkens back to the chord keyset.

mcav• 17 years ago

Anyone happen to know what software likely produced that video?

bjclark• 17 years ago

"A single finger manipulates items inside of an application. <insert finger painting>"

Ding. Ding. Ding. We have #fail.

It's pretty cool and all, but this isn't going to change anyone's life. The best idea here is just putting a big touch pad on the desktop in front of your monitor.

snprbob86• 17 years ago

What I find most compelling about this design is that it would support existing applications. This is a proposal for a new Window Manager, not a ground-up rewrite. Looking at the local context commands, it seems like traditional top-level menus could be automatically converted to something left-hand friendly.

jrockway3• 17 years ago

Emacs is a 10 finger multi-touch UI. And it works very well.

stcredzero4• 17 years ago

Multi-touch is right. A roommate once told me about a guy he knew who rigged up foot-pedal modifier keys to increase his Emacs productivity. And this was in the PS2 heyday! (No flames. I was an avid Emacs user in College & grad school.)

lg• 17 years ago

I think Bill Clementson uses these: http://bc.tech.coop/blog/060131.html

jrockway3• 17 years ago

Foot pedals are indeed an excellent idea. There don't seem to be any available on the market that are programmable under non-Windows-XP, however, and I have not had the chance to build my own yet.

mbrubeck• 17 years ago

So true! And xmonad (or ion, ratpoision, awesome, ...) is a 10-finger multi-touch UI with the same sort of window management ideas shown in the 10gui mockup.

dkersten3• 17 years ago

Agreed. I hate reaching for the mouse. I spend most of the time typing, so why should I have to break away from this in order to manage my windows? Thanks to keyboard-centric tiled window managers (Musca being the one I like best), I don't have to.

Now all I need is to begin using a keyboard-centric web browser. Sooooon!

gnubardt• 17 years ago

Interesting, would be cool to see worked up with one of thse http://www.technologyreview.com/computing/22358/

(I saw Ken Perlin of the nyu media lab give a presentation on that earlier in the year and it was incredible, high resolution and cheap to make)

DannoHung• 17 years ago

Seems interesting, but why not use a fully dynamic window manager instead of the side to side thing?

surfmike• 17 years ago

Like this example of bold but concrete thinking on a future computing metaphor.

Two of the concepts seem very heavily Palm Pre-inspired: The window management scheme (reminiscent of 'cards') and the gesture areas on each side, one of which is used to launch apps just like the Pre

zokier• 17 years ago

I'm not quite convinced that multi-touch panel that large would be practical, but smaller, one hand version could be nice. Imho it would also be better if the panel was on the side of a keyboard(ie in the place of numpad and arrow keys), not under.

tomstuart• 17 years ago

Not sure they should've let Patrick Bateman narrate the video.

"This is Sussudio, a great, great song, a personal favorite."

alexandros• 17 years ago

I wonder if they could combine the keyboard with the touch surface. Not by having the surface be the keyboard, but by overlaying a traditional keyboard with touch sensitive key-sized tiles that together make a touch-sensitive area. Keys should still be pressable, but when you treat it like a touch surface it should behave so. If the gaps between keys are snall enough it should work for fingers. (not styluses though)

chrismear• 17 years ago

"Who would build something like this?

Just as in the early days of the mouse and windowed GUI, a system based upon 10/GUI's principles would likely be best suited to a systems builder capable of full vertical integration."

I wonder who they're thinking of.

mitko• 17 years ago

Scrolling alone already had decreased a lot of tension in my arms. 10/GUI would probably have great effect on RSI reduction.

It is amazing how intuitive touch can be. I just love the multi-touch on the touchpad that Ubuntu for example supports. I never knew my old Thinkpad T43 would be able to do it but it does.

username2• 17 years ago

I'd rather have more modifier keys and mouse buttons or modifier mouse buttons. Instead of pinching with fingers, you could move the mouse while holding another mouse button. For three or more finger gestures, you could hold down another mouse button.

10 finger multi-touch UI designed to replace the mouse

Related Stories