Skinny Puppy demands royalties from US govt for using their music in Guantanamo

http://www.brooklynvegan.com/archives/2014/12/skinny_puppy_de.html

by r0h1n • 12 years ago

200 69 12 years ago

brooklynvegan.com

orf• 12 years ago

Imagine hearing this[1] for 12 hours straight.

Edit: Not saying it's bad music, but perhaps after the 12 hour point the constant beat would drive anyone crazy.

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYC5VFuiblU

csixty4• 12 years ago

You just described most of 1996 for me.

butwhy2• 12 years ago

Could be worse. I was expecting some hardcore metal abomination.

jschwartzi• 12 years ago

If it was GWAR it would've been a request to participate in the next torturing.

huxley• 12 years ago

Man, I listened to them live at the Flamingo in Halifax.

The music is besides the point, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with Skinny Puppy (even if it isn't everyone's cup of tea), it's the constant overwhelming of the senses that creates the conditions of torture.

zikzak• 12 years ago

I could say the same re: Flamingo. Small world.

return0• 12 years ago

Nothing is pleasurable for 12 hours straight. No accounting for musical tastes , if you don't like them , that's OK.

kyleblarson• 12 years ago

They're nihilists dude, they believe in nothing.

happyscrappy• 12 years ago

Say what you will about the tenets of National Socialism but at least its an ethos.

pmoriarty• 12 years ago

Please. That's a great song, and even Skinny Puppy (a relatively tame, "dance-industrial" band) has a lot noiser, less structured music that would be more "disturbing" to some. These prisoners were lucky if they got to listen to Puppy's Assimilate.

There's far, far, far more extreme music than that, such as the whole "noise" genre, which includes bands like Massona,[1] Merzbow,[2] and Borbetomagus.[3] And, yes, fans pay good money to buy their albums and go hear them live. I've gone for days listening to all of these virtually non-stop.

I'm not really in to them anymore, but I'd still much rather hear some noise music than put in a stress position, be tasered, be stuck in an extremely cold or extremely hot room, be waterboarded, raped, deprived of sleep or medical attention for weeks on end, be subject to mock executions, have my family threatened, be kicked to death (or kicked in general.. no thanks!).

Yes, music and various other means of sensory overload or sensory deprivation can induce altered states of consciousness, and when combined with a menacing environment where you're surrounded by people who mean you harm (and often do you harm), they can be unsettling. But music would be one of the last things I'd be worried about in a torture prison.

At least they didn't force the prisoners to listen to Johnny Cash.[4]

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9JjDP3rK5I

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AguPH0XBxdw

[3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GulFn6cqFvc

[4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=It7107ELQvY

krick• 12 years ago

It's not about music being extreme. Actually, you can see that other bands in the list aren't something that is generally considered being extreme. I'd argue that listening to Merzbow as a torture method is far easier than Queen exactly because of lack of structure — I generally listen to Merzbow and such when I'm extremely tired and it just helps to relax and stop thinking.

Anyway, I wouldn't be so sure that loud music for 12 hours is actually more humanistic (hah, humanistic torture — I've got to remember that!) than arbitrary item from your list. After all, Chinese water torture [1] also sounds surprisingly harmless, right?

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_water_torture

steveax• 12 years ago

Did Johnny get anything from Operation Nifty Pachage [1]?

[1] http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Nifty_Package

ankushnarula• 12 years ago

Interview with the band about this issue - haven't watched it yet but... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UTSKex8YkU

Also, I'm a big fan from the old days - I'd probably choose something less melodic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUQ_R8faRjg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGQZyMUMDGc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEDgnYuZkRg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8c6CsQL752o

sheetjs• 12 years ago

Reddit discussion (from 9 hours ago): http://www.reddit.com/r/nottheonion/comments/2p8mvd/skinny_p...

Earlier this year they tried to bill the US government: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/weird-news/metal-band-skin...

butwhy2• 12 years ago

How do they prove it?

malka• 12 years ago

They just have to torture them to get a confession.

shdon• 12 years ago

It's a pity that governments place themselves above the law. It would be nice to see the US government forced to actually pay up. It would be even nicer to see the band donate any sum awarded to an organisation like Amnesty International or Doctors Without Borders.

grecy• 12 years ago

It would be nice to see the US government forced to actually pay up.

Or, if they don't, to keep things consistent, then nobody should ever have to pay up again.

bostik• 12 years ago

Could you then label a nightclub as "Aural S/M Experience" and avoid paying any royalties from the used mu^Wtorture tracks?

JonnieCache• 12 years ago

Seems pretty cheap. They've got a lot to learn about military contracting.

junto• 12 years ago

As long as the figure continues to have lots of triple 6's the point is made I guess.

delinka5• 12 years ago

Let's step back into reality for a moment. Do they actually have a claim? Once I've bought the album, can't I torture my acquaintances to my heart's content without paying royalties? A small enough group isn't a "public performance," I'm not broadcasting it to the entire town.

Further, aren't there exemptions for the federal government with respect to use of copyrighted works? Sure, you'd probably have a case against a federal agency who acquired your album only to provide copies freely to its employees, but if they stick a track in a presentation to a small group (or several small groups ... or many small groups) I'm pretty sure the courts would just throw out your case.

OK, enough armchair lawyering, is there someone with a professional opinion on this?

waterlesscloud• 12 years ago

Bars and retail stores count as "public performance" for purposes of song royalties. So the group in question can be quite small.

delinka5• 12 years ago

But the people in bars and retail stores are not the acquaintances of the manager (or whomever chose the music to play.)

tomp• 12 years ago

That's because they are open to the public. Jails are not, in general - they're more like invite-only parties.

sfk2• 12 years ago

No professional opinion is needed: The copyright warnings at the beginning of DVDs often state that it is forbidden to perform the work in "restaurants, prisons, ..." (sometimes they even mention oil rigs).

delinka5• 12 years ago

Copyright warnings at the start of a DVD are not Legal Advice and cannot revoke rights assigned by copyright law to the purchaser/licenser. Besides, that's DVDs and not music; they're licensed differently.

Thus, indeed a professional opinion is "needed."

nimblegorilla• 12 years ago

I don't think fair use includes business presentations to small groups.

http://www.ascap.com/licensing/termsdefined.aspx

A public performance is one that occurs "in a place open to the public or at any place where a substantial number of persons outside of a normal circle of a family and its social acquaintances is gathered." A public performance also occurs when the performance is transmitted by means of any device or process (for example, via broadcast, telephone wire, or other means) to the public. In order to perform a copyrighted work publicly, the user must obtain performance rights from the copyright owner or his representative.

delinka5• 12 years ago

Are the people I work with not "social acquaintances?" Perhaps not the entire company of 500, but certainly the group of a dozen or so I work with daily.

andrewtbham2• 12 years ago

i think the publicity is probably a bigger factor than the actual money.

joering2• 12 years ago

INAL, but it depends. If your business is based on offering tortures, and their music makes you perform your work better, get better results from EITs and as a result, make more money, and they can prove it in court then its irrelevant that its been a "torture"; whats relevant is that you used in in a commercial way to gain something.

And that "something" would be very important to the court. In vast majority of cases, companies want to make more money. In case of Gov, CIA would argue that they dont make any money thanks to using your music. Heck, they could even claim non-profit status because AFAIK they do not produce monetary value; they produce intelligence.

Besides, in a light of recent developmentS that many important influencial people claim the entire program is illegal and some agents should be even in jail, some small claim suit from a tiny band is a peanuts to the CIA. And Im sure the Puppet knows this.

I feel its a PR stunt, because it takes a specific group of people listenning to dark music like this (other example Marlin Manson). So in this very busy and competitive business, I cannot imagine a better free advertise than "hey did you hear about Puppet?? Their music is soo cool they even torture people at Guantamo with it! We got to get their album asap!!"

jmnicolas2• 12 years ago

Hey who cares about torture in Guantanamo, a crime has been committed : copyright infringement.

The level of cynicism of these guys is impressive.

i_cannot_hack• 12 years ago

What on earth are you talking about? This is a statement _against_ the torture in Guantanamo. They are suing to bring publicity to the issue.

used our music without our knowledge and used it as an actual weapon against somebody
And Key said band members were offended to learn that their music was played in the notorious prison to inflict damagd on detainees.

jmnicolas2• 12 years ago

I guess it's a cultural thing (I'm not Anglo-Saxon) but for me, asking for money is not about being offended : it is being greedy.

If they pledged this money on a charity or something it would look entirely different.

dedward• 12 years ago

They will be doing this as a statement against the use of their work in this manner, and for the publicity that statement generates.

It's very unlikely they actually think "Hey, we have had our copyright violated and deserve compensation."

This isn't a money grab, that's not their style.

davidgerard• 12 years ago

Actual source: http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/vancouver-band-demands-compensa...

This is from February.

microtherion• 12 years ago

And I submitted it back then: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7192081

andrewtbham2• 12 years ago

The guard's story that told the band is interesting.

http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/2/industrial-acti...

saljam• 12 years ago

Musicians have made similar demands in 2008[1]. That includes Christopher Cerf, one of the Sesame Street composers. He features in a documentary Aljazeera made about this[2]. I seem to remember he also asked for royalties but was unsuccessful, but I can't find a reference to that.

[1] http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google...

[2] http://www.dummymag.com/videos/watch-al-jazeera-s-songs-of-w...

pekk• 12 years ago

In case you didn't understand the subtext, the point of this is to register offense that their music was used in this way (the opposite of what they would want). It's a form of passive resistance. This story isn't primarily about copyright and it certainly isn't about money.

saraid2162• 12 years ago

Ah, but a large percentage of HNers are Americans and thus care more about copyright and money than about torture.

swasheck• 12 years ago

I think that what you're trying to say is that `a large percentage of HNers are Americans and thus care more about copyright being used against them in order to extort them, usually for money.`

Most "Americans" care about a wide variety of topics so please take this sort of stereotype somewhere else.

sysk2• 12 years ago

Could this spawn a new music genre/industry (torture music)? We truly live in a bizarre world. It would certainly make for a good character background in a dystopian movie: a megacorp X office worker who produces torture music at day but leads a second life at night, rediscovering his love for music at underground bars where any type of music is being played (despite the the strict totalitarian government censorship laws).

fragmede2• 12 years ago

Someone's clearly never appreciated Merzbow.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGzrL8J0t-c

sysk2• 12 years ago

Indeed I hadn't! I certainly couldn't listen to that for hours but it would make a good soundtrack for a David Lynch movie :)

singingfish• 12 years ago

I did a small amount of research on this on behalf of a psychologist involved in torture trials (not testing torture, bringing people to account). The use of Skinny Puppy's music has been quite widespread.

jackhammer• 12 years ago

I thought the entire point of having that secret prison in Cuba is that US laws don't apply.

DigitalSea• 12 years ago

$666,000 is far too low. If the members of Skinny Puppy knew how Government defence contracting works, they would realise that this kind of value is a write-off, go for $666,000,000 - now that is more of a defence figure.

In all seriousness though, this shows extreme irony. The Government is content with passing draconian bills penalising users for downloading Game of Thrones and cutting off their Internet connections, sending Swat teams to their homes and allowing corporations to financially haemorrhage them in the "court of law". Yet, when the Government wants to use someone else's music without paying for a licence, they think they are above the law they want to so desperately put in place?

They definitely have a case. Copyright law forbids audio and video being broadcasted to many persons without a licence in a public place (with exception of your family and a few other exceptions). This isn't music being played in a family home, it is music being broadcasted in a US owned detention camp prison.

If I were in a band and found out my music was being used to torture people, I would be pretty pissed about it too. I couldn't imagine how that would make you feel knowing something you created is being used to interrogate and break a potentially innocent person locked up inhumanely.

I am going to be keeping an eye on this case. If the US fails to pay up, it could set a precedent for future court cases brought against small businesses and individuals being fined for playing music. And yes, there have been cases of small businesses, restaurants, cafes, etc being bullied by ASCAP into paying for licences to have play CD's or even in some cases, have a radio playing.

Skinny Puppy demands royalties from US govt for using their music in Guantanamo

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