Stockholm – it's not a coincidence

http://www.visitstockholm.com/en/moving-to-stockholm/other-services/Stockholm---its-not-a-coincidence/

by msvan • 12 years ago

107 103 12 years ago

jere• 12 years ago

Great video, but I'm wondering what's going on with this page. There is a giant (700px tall) div with only white text (on a white background) and the video all the way at the bottom.

danielsju6• 12 years ago

If you look at the other pages there is a photograph that fills this space. Just not loading on that page.

cesarbs4• 12 years ago

The website makes it sound like it's relatively simple to move there for work, and permanent residence seems to be granted after 4 years working there. Can someone confirm that it is really that simple? What is the situation like for software developers who already have experience abroad (my case, I'm from Brazil but currently working in the US)?

_delirium9• 12 years ago

If you have an offer of full-time employment, it's relatively easy (especially in the technology sector, since "in-demand" areas have some extra deference). This is sometimes called "sponsorship", but unlike the U.S. H1B process, the company doesn't really have to do anything besides offering you a job. But, it's not easy to move there without a job offer.

johansch2• 12 years ago

It is pretty easy to do get a job offer in our industry.

And employers know that the visa/work permit process is easy, quick (typically a few weeks) and predictable, so there is a lot less bias against foreign applicants than in e.g. the US.

optimiz3• 12 years ago

Can someone on a visa switch jobs? In the U.S. changing jobs while on a visa resets the residency process, which indentures the employee to the employer.

hedwall• 12 years ago

I have a friend who moved to Sweden from the US (US Citizen) about two years ago, if you have a job offer or a contract i believe it to be fairly easy to get over here.

steele• 12 years ago

The visa process is straightforward and startlingly efficient compared to other countries in Europe. The train can get you to the immigration offices very easily. The appointment system effective and gets you through the process much faster if you are aware of it. Research the Schengen visa because it is a really great opportunity if you aren't in love with the idea to committing to one country in Europe; the additional career mobility it affords is really fantastic.

The aspect which provides the lowest barrier to entry is that English is spoken widely and well in Stockholm. One somewhat funny and repeated experience is thinking you are being greeted with a friendly American-English "hey!" when entering a store or restaurant, but in fact it is the Swedish greeting "hej", haha.

rational-future3• 12 years ago

I'd only recommend moving to Sweden, if you have a family and want a stress free 37.5 hours job. Practically free, but very good healthcare and education for your kids, high pensions and unemployment benefits.

But on average you'll have to live in a lot smaller house/apartment, make less money after taxes, suffer the cold climate (unless you love winter sports). The startup scene is 1/1000th of the Valley.

cesarbs4• 12 years ago

Sounds good to me! Stress free is what I look for, and not having to worry about health insurance seems awesome. I think it would be a good life for my family.

The weather is not a problem, I love cold climates :)

nkoren• 12 years ago

Very cool video for what is indeed a wonderful city. Yet it is also a very, very, very expensive city. I remember the last time I returned home from a trip to Stockholm, the relief I felt as the wheels hit the runway: "Aaaahhh... finally back in the land where things are affordable!"

(As a point of reference: I live in central London.)

mhp• 12 years ago

This could be a plus for some people, but average low temperatures are at or below freezing for half the year. source: http://www.holiday-weather.com/stockholm/averages/

klon• 12 years ago

Yes, this is Stockholms weak point, the weather is not very nice a large part of the year.

sliverstorm• 12 years ago

Sounds like a plus to me.

yellowapple2• 12 years ago

Huge plus for me :)

I already live in a place with sub-freezing temperatures half the year or more. Absolutely love it.

PeterWhittaker• 12 years ago

At or below freezing? Bah! I'll see your mild summers and chilly winters and raise you hot and humid and frikkin' cold!

http://www.holiday-weather.com/ottawa/averages/

Stockholm is positively mild compared to Ottawa.

rational-future3• 12 years ago

Stockholm is not much more expensive than London really. Try Oslo and the rest of Norway for expensive - ~30% higher prices than Sweeden, Norwegians make shopping trips to Sweeden on weekends.

IMHO when you're in a foreign city you don't know where to shop cheaply, so it feels more expensive than your home.

_delirium9• 12 years ago

On the other hand, you could move to Copenhagen and experience the cheapest Scandinavian capital. ;-) Burgers only $20! Nice flats only $1500-2000/mo!

andreastt• 12 years ago

I recently relocated from Oslo to London. My living costs in London are higher than previously, mainly I think because housing standards are significantly lower in the UK. Certain things are cheaper in the UK, such as food, drink, and eating out. But housing prices are quite extreme.

elwell• 12 years ago

Yeah, he talks about free education but not taxation.

runj__• 12 years ago

If you're in Sweden for a startup it's 20% for dividends and 30% when you're selling your stock. If you're there for a paycheck you probably won't make much more than $50k.

_delirium9• 12 years ago

It depends a lot on your personal situation, but if you subtract stuff you'd otherwise have to pay for, the taxes aren't that high in Scandinavia, in my experience. For example, I pay ~35% effective income tax in Denmark, but that includes my healthcare, which in the U.S. is paid for separately. When I lived in the U.S., insurance premiums came right out of my paycheck, like taxes did, another ~10% of my income taken off the top. The balance is even more favorable if you have kids: paid paternity and maternity leave, subsidized childcare, free preschool, no saving for college, are all benefits included in that tax payment.

timdorr• 12 years ago

As an American, I'm not too ashamed to admit I need a reference point :)

How does it compare to places like San Francisco or New York? What about cheaper places to live, such as Portland or Atlanta?

msvan2• 12 years ago

Housing is more expensive in SF and NY, but most consumer goods/services are more expensive here due to the high VAT. High taxes bring other benefits, but it's always tough to part with your hard-earned quatloos.

A cup of coffee will be $4-5, a beer out is somewhere around $9-10, a T-shirt might cost you $30-40. A nice flat in Stockholm will cost you $1500-2000/mo. Of course, you can always find cheaper/pricier alternatives, but these are pretty normal prices.

Antiquarian• 12 years ago

Cities are a consumer good.

Yrlec2• 12 years ago

Stockholm's startup community has really blossomed in recent years. I think two reasons behind it are: 1. A more competitive tax policy (http://forumblog.org/2014/06/europes-top-ten-competitive-eco...). 2. More VC and Angel captial available as a result of previous Swedish unicorns such as Skype, Spotify and King.

If you happen to visit Stockholm you should check out STHLM Tech Meetup (http://www.meetup.com/STHLM-Tech-Meetup/) and SUP46: http://sup46.com/.

rational-future3• 12 years ago

Skype is not Swedish. It was developed in Estonia and incorporated in Luxembourg.

sandstrom2• 12 years ago

True, though it was founded by a Swede and a Dane (and with some of its initial capital being from Sweden).

But I partly agree, saying it's a Swedish company is a stretch.

Yrlec2• 12 years ago

One of the founders is Swedish. Therefore the Skype exit increased the supply of VC money in Sweden (through Atomico), which was my point.

dsco• 12 years ago

A great city to live in indeed. But as someone who's stayed here for over 20 years the winters are still unbearable. Mind you, all of the perks in the video are something I appreciate each day – but the cold and lack of sunlight 8 months a year takes a toll on you – especially if you enjoy being outdoors more than indoors.

BugBrother6• 12 years ago

Frankly, the best thing with coming from Sweden is that you get better weather wherever you move (except Iceland, Greenland -- and England). :-)

That said, I'd like to be more in .se in the summers than I can do now. It is so beautiful with the light, the forests and the lakes.

Edit: I don't mind the cold, but: For yellowapple and others -- the lack of sun influences your hormone levels, people are a bit different in the winter. I was amazed when I saw discussion of SAD among Californians; up in Scandinavia, it is just how it is. I didn't even note it, unless I went on a winter vacation.

Dewie10• 12 years ago

Frankly, the best thing with coming from Sweden is that you get better weather wherever you move (except Iceland, Greenland -- and England). :-)

Judging from the numbers, it looks decently typical for a Scandinavian city at its latitude.

yellowapple2• 12 years ago

Speak for yourself; that sounds quite lovely.

gvr2• 12 years ago

I grew up in Sweden and I second that. Stockholm imo is literally paradise on earth three months per year, especially the archipelagos. I've never seen a place like it, unbelievably beautiful, people are so full of life, you can wear a t-shirt at 5am, temperature is perfect, and so forth.

The problem is that the rest of the year it's pretty miserable weather wise. You notice a huge difference if you visit Swedish friends in the Winter and Summer, they're just totally different people.

I love snow and I don't mind the cold much. It's the darkness that is an issue. Some people go to hospitals to get "light therapy" and even if you live in Stockholm (which is rather far south) you'll probably have 15 minutes of sunlight per day - on your way to and from lunch. It will be dark when you go to work, and dark when you come home.

antr• 12 years ago

Cry havoc!

These crazy, bicycle riding, northern European hippies talking about recycling, 'health, safety & security', exceptional quality of life! You communists!

Give me my car, suburban house, gun, and private healthcare. Give me my freedom back!

</sarcasm>

Good for Stockholm and Sweden. I only wish cities and companies valued these as much as many of us do. Focusing on making cities more liveable, easy to move around, safe, etc are big problem/concerns off people's backs; and there is a direct economic benefit to all of these.

return0• 12 years ago

How is bicycle riding in sweden really? The weather doesn't sound very cooperative.

jib• 12 years ago

As someone who once upon a time worked as a bike riding mailman in Sweden, it's largely fine. :)

There's a good amount of bike lanes, and they are largely snowy in the winter rather than icy (due to not as much traffic as the main roads), or they are graveled when there is ice, so it's rare that it is too slippery (biking on snow is fine, ice can be messy). You have to go a bit slower than normal, sure, but it's hardly a problem.

Cold isnt a problem - you do fine with like a fleece down to minus 10 or so, and most places aren't colder than that very often (unless you are very far north).

Rain is the same as anywhere - no problem as long as you have some protective gear.

Thats just the winter though - summer it is perfect.

BugBrother6• 12 years ago

I assume you talk about the winter?

If you live in a city, the bicycle roads will be plowed regularly. Get a wind stopping jacket and pullover for your trousers. Use two pair of gloves. (You will get warm from bicycling, don't use a too warm jacket.)

And use winter tires for the bicycle, they are pure magic.

Dolimiter4• 12 years ago

Meanwhile, in the real world...

Don't come to Sweden without a job. Even then, Sweden is one of the most difficult countries in Europe to migrate to. Society is extremely conservative, and social opportunities to "get to know" Swedes are limited.

Without a solid job offer, you are in trouble. Sweden is having a job crisis at the moment, and only Swedes are being hired. Are you a working professional with a solid CV? No-one cares, there are no jobs for you. Have 10 years experience in a sector? Sorry, you need a Swedish qualification for that job.

Please note that I am employed, integrated, and super happy here. But I have met 100s of expats whose dreams have been crushed by the Swedish system and by the limited social opportunities.

sumedh• 12 years ago

But I have met 100s of expats whose dreams have been crushed by the Swedish system

I am assuming that the expats had job offers first and then they moved to Sweden or do they just show up and start looking for jobs.

Dolimiter4• 12 years ago

Some came on temporary contracts, and wanted to stay longer.

Some came for Swedish boyfriend/girlfriend.

Some came because they had a hopelessly naive idea about Sweden.

Some were PhD graduates from Swedish universities.

All had their dreams crushed.

vacri2• 12 years ago

I don't know about Sweden specifically, but usually in Europe if you're under 30, you can just get a working visa, show up and look for work. If you're 30 or over, you need to have an offer of work before you can get a working visa.

sandstrom2• 12 years ago

I think this is true for some sectors, but not the technology sector (which may be most relevant to HN readers).

If you are an engineer with average skills or above, finding a job won't be difficult.

msvan2• 12 years ago

I'm quite tired of hearing people saying Swedish people are "cold." There are plenty of opportunities to get to know us if you put in the effort. Emigrating is always tough.

If you come from the US, you might find that we don't small talk as much. Cashiers, officials, salespeople and the like will engage with you in a completely different way in Sweden, which might come as a bit of a cultural shock when you come to here. As a social introvert, I kind of like it. I also like the US way. Potato potahto.

Being Swedish, I can't really comment on the jobs part.

Dolimiter4• 12 years ago

I have Swedish friends, took a few years.

Almost every expat I meet has none. There is a wall there. It is unlike any other country. Sorry.

BugBrother6• 12 years ago

Swedes are generally shyer to start talking to people we don't know than e.g. the Irish (or Danes). It takes longer to get friends. This is not only bad.

The Finns are, well, more Swedish than the Swedes. :-) While partying they are more open than Swedes, which makes partying a bit "too" fun, your mileage will vary.

The main problem with Stockholm is rather getting someplace to live. (Probably partly from lobbying and partly from political Moment-22 problems. The press seems to dependent on the political parties to analyze too much...)

(These are generalizations, but they are hard not to make after living in a few places and talking to a bunch of people that moved to Sweden.)

Dewie10• 12 years ago

I'm quite tired of hearing people saying Swedish people are "cold."

For what it's worth, I think Norwegians kind of are. I say that as a shy (which can come off as cold) Norwegian. I think that our social lives can become very compartmentalized, which I guess hurts outsiders like new countrymen disproportionately.

joezydeco• 12 years ago

Interesting perspective. I kind of wondered why a quality-of-life video was being produced by the tourism board, not some other entity like a chamber of commerce or city government.

K0nserv• 12 years ago

I work at a startup incubator were about 40 companies sit. A big chunk of them, us included, are looking for developers of all sorts. A lot companies are starting to look abroad because there simply aren't enough developers in Sweden. In short I do not agree with you.

If there is a reason to not move to Stockholm it's probably the housing market. Getting a first hand contract for a rental apartment will take you 7-12 years if you are not lucky. If you can afford the upfront 15% to buy an apartment housing is an easier problem to solve though

jmspring• 12 years ago

I've been to Stockholm a half a dozen times for work. Nearly every time I go, I manage to get into have some decent conversations with local Swedes. That certainly isn't the same as living there and getting to know them socially -- they seem more outgoing than Finns ;). When I lived in Helsinki, getting to know locals was also quite difficult -- even with normal activities outside work (martial arts classes, yoga, meditation, etc).

alkonaut3• 12 years ago

In th tech sector, it doesn't really matter where you come from as long as you speak English. If English is your first language, even better.

The problem with getting a job in Sweden, which can be surprisingly hard is because a) worker protection laws are strong, bordering ridiculous. You can literally not fire the worst person on your team and hire someone else. b) salaries are comparably flat with high entry level salaries. Due to strong unions and high taxes on work, minimum wages are high ($10-20 depending on sector) and the minimum cost for hiring someone could be 50% higher including fees/taxes. This means there are no cheap employees. Together with generous benefit systems, the equilibrium unemployment is high, so there will always be a pool of people speaking Swedish that can take the job you are after. For unskilled immigrants without good English skills, this is a huge obstacle, there are thousands of people that literally cannot "produce" value that matches the cost of employing them. On the positive side, once you have a full time job, you can provide for a family, without working a second job or more than 40h/week.

For skilled and/or English speaking immigrants, coming here shouldn't be a problem.

Dewie10• 12 years ago

The Capital of Scandinavia

A slogan invented by... Stockholm. :P

cgh• 12 years ago

I wonder how the Norwegians feel about this.

joakleaf• 12 years ago

No worse than the Danes ;-)

Urban populations (from Wikipedia):

Oslo, Norway: 951,581 Copenhagen, Denmark: 1,246,611 Stockholm, Sweden: 1,372,565

BugBrother6• 12 years ago

I would expect them to not like it, but I assume the people in Copenhagen laugh a lot. :-)

Dewie10• 12 years ago

Well, I'm Norwegian and I do not approve. :P

vegardx3• 12 years ago

We have a love/hate-relationship, but speaking as a Norwegian, being honest and not just wanting to stick it to those damn swedes, I think there is some truth to it. I've always looked at both Stockholm and Copenhagen as more cultured than Oslo. Compared to Oslo, both Stockholm and Copenhagen has a much richer history.

It's sort of like a sibling relationship. Don't dare touch them, or you'll feel the wrath of the other siblings, but internally, we all like to make fun at the others expense. I recommend taking a look at the comic strip Scandinavia and the World, it talks a lot about that, and is pretty funny. [1]

[1] http://satwcomic.com/

johansch2• 12 years ago

Here are the relevant rules for people who might want to move to Sweden to start their own business:

http://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/W...

"Requirements for obtaining a residence permit as a self-employed

In order to obtain a residence permit, you must:

- have a valid passport

- show that you have significant experience in your field and previous experience of running your own business

- have documented knowledge in Swedish and/or English

- show that you are running the business, that you have the ultimate responsibility for it and that you own at least half of the business

- show that the business' services or goods are sold and/or produced in Sweden

- show that you have sufficient funds to support you and, if applicable, your family during the first two years (equivalent to SEK 200,000 for you, SEK 100,000 for your spouse and SEK 50,000 for each accompanying child)

- show that the business, following the two-year probationary period, is expected to be able to support yourself and, if applicable, your family.

The Swedish Migration Board will assess your business plans from a financial perspective."

devgutt• 12 years ago

What about investments for new start-ups? I'm thinking to stay 2 weeks there trying to get an investment for my new company. Worth a shoot?

keenerd• 12 years ago

show that you have sufficient funds to support you during the first two years (SEK 200,000)

SEK 200,000 == $30,000 USD

oscargrouch• 12 years ago

This is all very reasonable and pretty unusual.. i wonder how many migratory pressure the country is feeling usually, given the instability in some regions of the world that have Europe as a common migratory target.. it looks that the political class can keep its own sanity, even when pressure may be higher..

I wonder how much of this resonable migratory pressure is given to the Welfare state policy..

beerbajay• 12 years ago

Good luck finding an apartment in Stockholm; you need 10 years in the housing queue at least...

qwerta2• 12 years ago

There are many stories how local Social Services kidnap children of immigrants without any chance for repeal. No evidence, just single accusation. I think I will pass.

vegardx3• 12 years ago

I think this deserves a reply. First of all, the child welfare system is not allowed to disclose why they take the children, so naturally you get a very one sided view of all stories.

Scandinavian countries are culturally /very/ different from the rest of the world. Child safety is not taken lightly, and physical abuse or risk of sexual mutilation are typical things that they react on. Schools are obliged to contact the child welfare system if there is any suspicion or any wrong doing.

I know the there are some pretty high profile cases with eastern european and middle eastern children involved right now, which I'm sure you are referring to. TL; DR: Don't hit your children. They will be taken away.

qwerta2• 12 years ago

The problem is not the first reaction of taking children away, I totally agree with that.

Problem is to get children back after initial claims are not confirmed. They ignore other family members (grandparents, spouse) and just keep piling up excuses, i.e. you have to speak Swedish language.

dllthomas2• 12 years ago

I think people have just convinced themselves it's good 'cause they're stuck there.

Dewie10• 12 years ago

That's a clever reference. :)

dllthomas2• 12 years ago

Thanks! Not sure if downvoters are missing it, or just feel that the humor is too off topic (not entirely unreasonable).

osivertsson• 12 years ago

If you are serious about relocating to Sweden then Stockholm is not your only choice. Other cities may provide even better quality of life depending on what you like. At least also consider: * Göteborg * Linköping * Umeå

breitling• 12 years ago

How about the language barrier? Is it realistic for an English speaking North American to move to Sweden and work there? I presume Swedish will be their primary language...

_delirium9• 12 years ago

In tech it should be fine. I know in the game industry, at least, they don't care what other languages you speak, as long as you speak English. May or may not be true at bigger companies, e.g. if you're in IT in a big mainly-Swedish company.

Though if you want to work at a bigger company, you could try Denmark, where my impression is that English workplaces are multiplying much faster. The biggest private-sector employer, Maersk, a few years ago switched to an officially all-English workplace, and this is becoming common. Their motivation was that as a multinational logistics company, it's too troublesome to have different languages involved: they want to have the flexibility to assign someone from Hong Kong to a Copenhagen-hosted teleconference, or forward them a document created in Copenhagen, so corporate policy is now that everything happens in English, except for a narrow range of things that legally must be done in other languages.

alkonaut3• 12 years ago

Most people speak English, including bus drivers and anyone else you'll meet. I think the consensus is that swedes probably have the best English of all who don't have it as their first language.

So it isn't just realistic, it's simple. Language-wise you may find it easier than parts of the UK (I'm not even joking).

In the tech sector as well as all larger/multinational corporations English will be the primary language used.

In fact, people who come to learn Swedish are routinely disappointed when they don't get a chance to try it, as the swedes are so delighted to speak English.

stefan_kendall3• 12 years ago

Several people have commented about a "housing queue".

In much of the USA, we have a mechanism that matches the supply of goods and the demand for those goods, such that there is never a shortage or surplus without externalities.

Funny how you can't legislate away the laws of economics.

alkonaut3• 12 years ago

Sadly, you can't legislate away the fact that there are always people who have less money. Last I checked, the possibility of getting a rent-controlled apartment in NYC was about the same as it is in stockholm (where you could argue that almost all apartments are rent-controlled).

Even with market rents (which will come sooner or later), you won't find an apartment to rent because no one would build them (more profitable to build to sell, plus there is barely any place to build left in the central city).

The law was recently changed so you can charge the true cost (including interest rates) when subletting, meaning that there is now a market for subletting apartments that uses market pricing more or less.

Stockholm – it's not a coincidence

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