Why Does A Good Kettle Cost $90+?

http://blog.chewxy.com/2014/01/20/why-does-a-good-kettle-cost-90

by boyter • 13 years ago

176 238 13 years ago

blog.chewxy.com

aychedee• 13 years ago

Retail margins are frequently 50%. (50% margin, 100% markup) Unless a company is vertically integrated. Does the author really not understand that? Markup/margin varies by product and retailer but is still one of the largest factors in the price you pay at retail.

chewxy10• 13 years ago

Yeah, I figured so myself.

kevinchen• 13 years ago

Unless of course, those $39 kettles use a digital solution to stop the water from boiling.

Right, micros and temperature sensors are really expensive these days, especially at mass-production volumes.

But that is just rather silly, given that an analogue solution works better.

tab closed

wffurr• 13 years ago

I guess you didn't get to the part where the author talks about PID controller tuning, temperature probes, and heat-proofing electronics.

Do you have any reasons those statements bothered you or are you just a pro-digital kind of guy?

jjoonathan2• 13 years ago

Yes, $30 is an insane estimate for the cost of a PID controller. Probably because nobody buys discrete PID hardware anymore because microcontrollers disrupted that market decades ago.

You could easily implement thousands of PID controllers sufficient for this application on a $3 microcontroller with a $2 thermistor. Those are sparkfun prices, so 1/2 that would not be unreasonable for a BOM estimate. Sundry connectors and power transistors would cost more, but those will be present in the analog version as well. Temperature proofing is unnecessary - the sparkfun thermistor is rated to 125C and you can trade latency for max temp by moving it away from the heated parts. In this application you can afford to trade truckloads of latency.

Also, this is not a project for 3EEs + 2 technicians, this is a project for 1 bored EE in an afternoon. I suspect calibrating the digital version would be 10x-100x easier on an industrial scale.

I have no idea why or how he thinks the analog version would work better, so I can't really counter-argue.

mesozoic• 13 years ago

A very long article that seems to not derive the simple answer of wholesale and retailer margins.

Semiapies• 13 years ago

And that does the usual geek thing of dismissing the idea that people do in fact pay for design differences.

GuiA• 13 years ago

I like the comment on the post:

"The kettle had caused the trip. It was no longer safe to use the kettle"
You know enough to start designing a temp. controlled kettle, and yet you overlooked the simple (and most likely) possibility that the kettle was on the same circuit with another high draw appliance (hair dryer, electric heater, etc.) and the combination of the two resulted in the trip from overload. And that there was nothing in fact wrong with the kettle at all.

We sometimes forget that our hacker minds can be a weakness :)

gregory144• 13 years ago

It's possible he did consider that fact and the kettle wasn't on the same circuit with another high draw appliance.

joshschreuder• 13 years ago

The author responded: "Everyone else in the house was asleep. But yes, you’re right, I have overlooked that possibility"

ars4• 13 years ago

Not to mention if your kettle caused your main breaker to trip you have some serious problems in your wiring, not your kettle.

A kettle might cause a branch circuit to trip - but the whole house??? If that happens you have bigger problems than a kettle.

(Plus in the UK plugs have built in fuses should trip first. So it's pretty doubtful it was the kettle.)

kabouseng• 13 years ago

An over current situation would trip the branch. A grounding issue would trip the main switch. If water came into the electric circuit causing a grounding of the current, then the main switch would trip. Nothing wrong with the house wiring.

Crito4• 13 years ago

Could this be a consequence of a single ring-circuit for the whole house? I am not familiar with how exactly those work with circuit breakers.

aaronsnoswell• 13 years ago

Here in Australia in older houses it is very common for power to trip if too many appliances are running at the same time - not unusual at all.

alextingle3• 13 years ago

RCDs are quite expensive, so its common in the UK for a single RCD to cover several circuits. The most common configuration is to have two RCDs each of which cover half of the circuits. Here's a typical consumer unit...

http://www.ctm.co.uk/gallery/Electric/Electric_photo_gallery...

RCDs detect the slightest earth leak, so they are far more likely to trip than the MCB or the fuse on the plug, which only detect a sustained over-current.

walshemj• 13 years ago

And why decide that after one trip - is it the kettle or the outlet you have plugged it into thats causing the problem?

jpollock2• 13 years ago

My house had residual current devices in the main circuit board (like the bathroom socket, only centralised). That meant that when devices such as the toaster, kettle, dishwasher and exterior lights developed ground faults, they would take out half the house.

It would lead to much fun as we reset the RCD and then tried each appliance to figure out which one was faulty.

SomeCallMeTim• 13 years ago

"The kettle had caused the trip. It was no longer safe to use the kettle"

If the kettle still works, then problem solved.

If the ($10) kettle is broken, then I'm going to say that it's entirely possible to consider that quality of components, design, and build may account for the difference between a $10 and a $40 kettle.

I often end up spending more on something if I have reasonable evidence it will last longer and/or perform better. And I don't write long articles about how I resent spending the "extra" money.

arkitaip• 13 years ago

Glad I'm not the only one who frequently over thinks purchasing decisions :)

tim333• 13 years ago

I don't think a good kettle has to cost $90 - There's one one amazon with 80% 5 star reviews for $20. http://www.amazon.com/Courant-Cordless-Electric-Coffee-Maker... . Still there are lots of wealthy people with $100 + to spend so manufacturers will naturally make stuff for those price points if customers will buy it.

chewxy10• 13 years ago

Which is my point. A basic kettle should not cost much. The $100 kettles are those with temperature controls.

brc• 13 years ago

I had an expensive kettle which was a gift. It lasted ten years but then started to leak and finally started tripping the breaker. I replaced it with a $20 plastic kettle which does everything the other one did, except boil faster and quieter. Just doesn't look as cool though.

In reality, expensive kettles are like expensive clothes. They are probably made out of better materials, but the rest is just markup to cover the lower volumes and higher marketing costs. And because people will pay it for a brand name and sleek design.

dima55• 13 years ago

Please read the article. He's talking about temperature-controlled kettles. Yours only shuts off when boiling.

phaus• 13 years ago

I don’t know how Hamilton Beach did it, and I’m exceedingly curious as to how. The people at Steepster don’t think too highly of it though, so there’s some clues there.

In regards to the $45 variable temperature kettle. The folks at steepster probably didn't care for it because the temperature range is pretty narrow. For high-quality tea, 175-212F simply isn't a wide enough range. It's also not very precise. Many delicate green teas are best prepared at temperatures as low as 140F and in some cases just a few degrees can make a difference.

tostitos1979• 13 years ago

I've wanted a Zojirushi for a few months now. Heard really good things but also heard about the build up of scaling after some usage(I guess that depends on the type of water you use). I only drink black tea (using teabags - nothing fancy) so spending north of $100 seems overkill.

chewxy10• 13 years ago

I grew up with one. Having instantly accessible hot water was amazing. Then I moved out and had to use a kettle

RogerL• 13 years ago

We just boil a bit of vinegar in ours every few weeks. Keeps it shiny and clean.

dylanz• 13 years ago

I've been meaning to buy a kettle, and this post made finally pull the trigger. I absolutely love my Zojirushi rice cooker, I have a Zojirushi thermos for my coffee which is perfect, and now I'm going to have a Zojirushi CV-DYC40 kettle. These (along with my Vitamix) are the only appliances I constantly take with me when I move.

stock_toaster• 13 years ago

Me too. The liner being "non-stick" is a bit concerning, but it seems like glass or uncoated metals are impossible to find.

I imagine it has to do with scaling, discoloration, and/or lifetime. I have stayed with my old stovetop kettle until now, simply because it has no plastic/silicone/rubber in contact with the water.

markrages• 13 years ago

I've had a Zojirushi insulated pot for about ten years. I've got pretty hard water, but the scale just seems to build up and flake off in big chunks.

The pot still works fine. The gasket hardened and cracked, but Zojirushi USA sells parts online. It was about $10 for a new one.

muhfuhkuh• 13 years ago

I bought my wife the CV-DSC40 kettle. She drinks green and Jasmine and uses the water for her Bodum coffee press. The scaling is only for really hard water areas.

It is overkill if you don't use it all that much (we use and refill at least once a day). But if you're a hardcore hot beverage drinker, it's truly the Cadillac of kettles.

jrockway• 13 years ago

I've had a Zojirushi boiler for about 6 years and have only descaled it twice. It's very easy, you just dump some citric acid in there, set it to the cleaning cycle, and dump the water out. Rinse it a couple times to remove any extra citric acid, though that's only for flavor reasons; it's food-grade citric acid.

The instructions say to dump the water out every day and start fresh in the morning. I don't do that, because I am too lazy.

stephenconnolly• 13 years ago

Freshly boiled water has a higher oxygen content than reboiled or water that has been kept at/near boiling for a long time.

For best tea, you should only use water that has been boiled once (since reaching an equilibrium with dissolved oxygen at/below room temperature)

tptacek3• 13 years ago

Bear in mind that the price of insurance and UL certification is also built into these devices. Heat, huge amounts of electricity, water, hands: lots of liability.

Is PID control all that expensive? Aren't you talking about a microcontroller, a thermocouple, and a relay?

chewxy10• 13 years ago

I've been given different prices on that. Some people say it's just $0.50, some claim it's more than $10 to buy PIDs in bulk.

tptacek3• 13 years ago

I've never done a PID from scratch, but a friend of mine did for a home espresso setup. I'm suggesting, instead of pricing a PID part, you price the components of a PID. I think the SS relay might be the most expensive part there.

ChickeNES• 13 years ago

A third option after PIDs and mechanical is to use an opamp and thermistor to control the temp: https://math.temple.edu/~cmartoff/teaching/ph22109/thermisto... or one of these: http://pdf.datasheetcatalog.com/datasheet/nationalsemiconduc... (discontinued, but I'm sure there is an equivalent made) I bet this thing: http://www.thinkgeek.com/product/e60d/ uses one or the other, given the analog control.

dagw2• 13 years ago

Last time I bought a PID I paid $12 +shipping for a no-name Chinese one. And that was with a case, display and controls. If I just wanted the core components, I think they where about $5.

TheZenPsycho2• 13 years ago

I was surprised he didn't take these into account. Not to mention quality control, or accounting for market fluctuations in price and manufacturing costs. The price is calculated to be a reasonable bet to pay for periods of really high costs from profits in periods of low costs.

Quality control in a typical product is really a bigger deal than most hackers think. He didn't account for the fact that if you go to china or hong kong and contract a manufacturing organisation to build your kettle, it's very likely you'll get your first shipment, coming in on your boat or plane and half the kettles are dead or defective or dangerous on arrival. There's nothing to do with those but throw them out, or maybe sell them back over to india for recycling, and the cost of those lost sales is built into the price of the not defective kettles.

The maths here assumes you have no shipping costs and no defective products, no manufacturing problems and no price fluctuations. Doesn't seem very realistic.

chewxy10• 13 years ago

QC is tabulated under "various manufacturing costs". And yes, you are correct, it doesn't have shipping and dead goods costs. But I still think it's entirely serviceable as a back-of-envelope calculations

chiph• 13 years ago

I once worked on a device that needed UL certification. It was $50,000 per test cycle, so the motivation was there to get your product right before submitting it.

timthorn2• 13 years ago

You don't even need a microcontroller for PID - it can be done entirely in the analogue domain.

BgSpnnrs• 13 years ago

Bought a kettle today, £12.

I guess in the UK they are counted as a necessity and are cheap :P

pbhjpbhj• 13 years ago

I bought one recently in the UK - cheapest plastic ones were too flimsy (last couple of kettles died from broken plastic parts [eg in over-complicated lid catches]). Metal ones at the next level up didn't have a level indicator to see how full it is without opening the lid. Next level up from that was about £25-30.

IIRC we paid ~£25 after discount. The best value, of those I found, excluding aesthetics was ~£22 .

boyter• 13 years ago

They are cheap in Australia as well since so many people drink tea. I had a $10 one which lasted for years.

joosters2• 13 years ago

Your electric kettle almost certainly uses a thermostat patented by John Taylor [1], who made his fortune with the things. Effectively, your kettle helped pay for the wonderful Corpus Clock [2] - 'the strangest clock in the world' :)

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Taylor_(inventor)

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpus_Clock

chewxy10• 13 years ago

If so, such an elegant solution. So elegant.

joosters2• 13 years ago

Yes. In a world of dodgy software patents, it's pleasing to see good 'real' patents.

jdlshore• 13 years ago

That clock is wonderful. Thanks for sharing it.

semerda• 13 years ago

Maybe someone could shed some light why this simple stainless steel kettle is worth $179.95? Is it the Small Bird Shaped Whistle ;-) lol http://www.amazon.com/Alessi-Michael-Graves-Kettle-Whistle/d...

lingben3• 13 years ago

you're paying for the alessi name and design (Italian)

erdle2• 13 years ago

The design is American, the manufacturer is Italian. And I believe the design for that kettle in particular was done in New Jersey.

lingben3• 13 years ago

For me the perfect kettle is a simple glass kettle because I've found that it doesn't change the taste of water whereas metal or plastic kettles do. Also, I don't like the idea of heated plastic compounds leaching into my water.

Bonus, it looks cool to see the water start to form bubbles and then to go into a full on boil!

Angostura• 13 years ago

I challenge you to a blind trial. I very much suspect that using an electric kettle and a glass kettle you would not be able to taste the difference of the water once cooled. (We'll run the electric kettle twice with clean water followed by a flush, as most manuals state.

lingben3• 13 years ago

you're probably right, it may be all in my mind :)

rplnt• 13 years ago

Also, I don't like the idea of heated plastic compounds leaching into my water.

I don't like the idea to getting burned on my kettle. So if anyone is looking for a kettle that should be metal, invest in one with double walls if you want it for the "look" or one that has palstic outside if you want it for the "taste". Having cheap metal kettle is much worse than having even cheaper plastic one in my opinion.

kintamanimatt• 13 years ago

The quick answer is supply chain markup. Stuff isn't sold at cost because that's usually not a winning, sustainable strategy. Distributors (if there are any), manufacturers, and retailers will all want to cover their (varying) overheads as well as make a profit. The largest profit is generally made by the the retailer. A bricks and mortar store has markups of about 100%.

All the above is why you sometimes hear people talking about shorting their supply chains because it means lower trade prices, which in turn allows for increased profits, an increased ability to compete on price, or both.

mbrutsch• 13 years ago

Using a bimetallic strip to trigger a mechanical trigger is simply quite a brilliantly elegant way of solving a problem.

For over 200 years, no less: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bimetallic_strip . It's cute how he seems to think this is a novel solution.

vacri3• 13 years ago

the price over a mass amount of units (say 100,000 units)

This almost made me laugh out loud. Exactly how many kettles does the author think sells each year? Multiply by models and again by manufacturers, and you're talking millions of kettles. Even if you consider that one model will last multiple years, manufacturers don't buy supply batches that last for years. Some industries go in the extreme other direction - the local car industry got its stock-on-shelf lifetime down to 48 minutes from part arriving to part being screwed into car.

Similarly, retail markup is generally 20-50% of the final cost. If you think this is too high (it really isn't) then I suggest you use your new formula to undercut the existing market and disrupt away. Other significant costs are transport and wholesalers (who aren't always the manufacturers). Kettles are bulky items that consume a lot of space in storage and transport. On top of all this, every party involved in the transaction is entitled to make some profit, and not just work for costs. There's also regulatory compliance, things like the CE mark.

Looking at an item and stating that the price shouldn't be more than parts + amortised kickback to the designers is naievity, plain and simple.

chewxy10• 13 years ago

I thought that markup was implicitly accepted in blog. I of course do not think that the price should be just the cost of the parts. In fact, I did mention that the fact that both $10 kettles and $39 kettles exist implies that there is some form of price discrimination. The difference in price is the additional markup that the manufacturer can get away with. As I mentioned, my marginal utility does not increase with the markup - a $39 kettle gives me the same utility as a $10 kettle.

As for 100,000 units, yeah, that was probably a mistake. Australia only has 22 million people. No idea why I arbitrarily picked 100,000.

vacri3• 13 years ago

Yeah, I read through in more detail and saw that lurking towards the end. Just came back to edit, perhaps delete the comment but it's already replied-to. :)

The costings at the end are off. Testing is much less that $5/unit for these kind of things, for example. Usually you'll have a common testbench across all products - it'll be much lower per unit, and not tied to a particular model. Also, retailers aren't the only ones in the pricing process - as I say above, wholesalers/distributors and transport also get figured into the cost. It all adds up. Marketing costs are mostly borne by the retailer portion of the price, as the wholesale channel marketing is much more limited and cost-effective (no tv or radio spots, print one catalogue and you're fine for a quarter/year, run a more niche website only for retailers, etc)

The Australia-limited market thing is less of an issue - a kettle will have a market wider than this. But kettles generally last a long time, and there are hundreds of models out there. Though to honest, after a friend's horror story of one day finding a cockroach in her kettle that had been boiled white, I'm much keener on glass kettles now...

gojomo• 13 years ago

Same utility? Not if you fear your $10 plastic kettle so much that, after a single circuit-breaker throw, you have to discard it!

Never mind the $39 kettle. Totaled over ten years, the $150 kettle's seemingly-tiny advantages in reliability, capacity, features, and style over the $10 kettle can be worth way more than its $140 price premium.

thatthatis3• 13 years ago

Say 10% of American households and 80% of British households buy electric tea kettles that last exactly 10 years each.

That's 10 million total market in the US (100 x .1) and about 16 million in the UK (~20 x .8).

So 26 million total market with a level 1/10th per year or 2.6 million kettles per year. At 100k run per year per manufacturer, the market can then support 26 different models easily.

On the second point, It seemed that he was adding the 2x retail markup into his figures. If you'd followed the link on amazon, you'd see that $90 was market down from about $200.

Sometimes it's best to ask "what would you have to believe for this to be right" before you tear into someone for faulty analysis. All of his number easily pass my smoke tests.

teamonkey2• 13 years ago

Coming from the UK I can't believe that only 80% of households own an electric kettle. The idea of going to someone's house and not finding a kettle seems genuinely ludicrous. Not just houses - almost every break room of every business will have one.

Of course, they cost quite a bit less on average in the UK.

orf• 13 years ago

More than 80% of households have a kettle in the UK, I would say 99%. That doesn't count businesses, shops or other places that will certainly also have a kettle.

We do love our tea.

vacri3• 13 years ago

Do a google image search on 'kettle' and you'll see that 26 is a laughably small number for the amount of available models.

Strangely, almost all of them are pictured with their spout pointing to the left. It's a bit like a Where's Wally, trying to find one oriented for the left-handers amongst us.

thisone• 13 years ago

aside from the 80% mark. 10 years is too long to assume a kettle lasting.

Just bought our 3rd kettle in 7 years after the previous one developed a leak (and the one before that, the on switch liked to fall off)

dded2• 13 years ago

10% of American households [...] buy electric tea kettles

No way. I've never seen an electric tea kettle. Tea kettles, sure; but not electric ones. I don't believe anywhere near 10% of US households have one.

We've got plenty of bread machines, waffle irons, electric skillets, toaster ovens, crock pots, and every possible variety of coffee maker, espresso machines, rice cookers, etc. So we're not adverse to electric appliances.

Myself, I've got a stovetop kettle that I never use. If I want tea, I heat water in the microwave.

newman314• 13 years ago

Do you have a source for the part about 48mins from part arrival to installation? I find that data point fascinating and would like to learn more about how this is pulled off.

shurcooL• 13 years ago

And a 4K TV costs under $500.

Aloha3• 13 years ago

why not just use a stovetop kettle?

Obviously, not all places have stoves - but every place I've wanted to make hot water in has - or a microwave/

pangram• 13 years ago

Convenience, mostly -- with an electric kettle you can just hit a button and when it pops back it's ready. Also, if you happen to get involved with something and forget about the kettle, it's not a big deal; not so with the stove.

Aloha3• 13 years ago

my stovetop kettle whistles loudly when at boiling.

cecilpl• 13 years ago

A regular kettle is far more efficient.

Aloha3• 13 years ago

Cite?

BertrandP• 13 years ago

tl;dr anyone?

stefan_kendall• 13 years ago

Why does an "X" cost "$Y+"?

Because that's the price the market will bear for X. Cost has nothing to do with it. If I could sell you a kettle for $100,000 that cost me $100 to build, I would absolutely do it.

thatthatis3• 13 years ago

He implicitly assumes (and I think correctly so) an efficient competitive market with zero economic profits.

Paul_S• 13 years ago

I like to think that often the main difference between cheap and expensive is the amount of QA done so I don't have to do the testing for the manufacturer. Though that's probably very naive on my part.

shalmanese• 13 years ago

People here are forgetting that you can buy a fully functioning tablet on a retail shelf for less than the cost of a temperature controlled kettle. You can buy a tablet AND a conventional kettle for less than the cost of the temperature controlled kettle. Tablet makers have to deal with QC and retail markup and all of the other things mentioned in this thread as possible drivers of the price so I don't find many of the explanations convincing.

In reality, it's likely that either a) these things are being sold at massive profit margins or b) they're being produced very inefficiently with lots of waste in the production process.

lewispollard3• 13 years ago

I think a lot of cheap tablets are loss leaders, and the manufacturers don't make any profit (or even lose money) and hope to make more money by bringing them into their retail stores (eg Tesco, Walmart tabs) or on accessories.

That said, I think the kettle thing is mostly a). Companies will price things highly because they've found that people will pay that much, I reckon it's as simple as that.

csense• 13 years ago

Previous submission on electric kettles: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5018560

Also, electric kettles aren't really a thing in the US. Almost everybody uses the stovetop kind.

tonyarkles• 13 years ago

Wow, that's quite surprising! In Canada, I haven't seen a stovetop kettle in a while!

barrkel2• 13 years ago

Why does the author seem to think that a digital solution is required for control over temperature?

The bimetallic approach can be extended to select temperature. An analogue dial can adjust the switch cutoff position (or alternatively, the starting angle of the bimetallic strip) with a screw. All you'd need to do is calibrate the dial, and the added cost shouldn't be more than 50 US cents on the end retail price.

IMO the reason a "good" kettle costs $90+ is because there isn't enough demand to create enough competition and support enough production to amortize the fixed costs. It's essentially a market broken apart into two of Porter's three fundamental strategies, cost leadership and differentiation. The cheapest kettles would be uncompetitive with a temperature selector even if it added only pennies, while the differentiated kettles have specific features for smaller, less cost sensitive markets. Most people simply don't need temperature selection.

bbxiao1• 13 years ago

Digital thermostats work on electrical resistance which is more accurate than bimetallic thermostats. Also bimetallic thermostats basically only switch at one temperature whereas most digital thermostats can handle a range. If you intend on using a kettle for both coffee and tea, that range is desired since the ideal temperatures between coffee and tea is quite significant.

barrkel2• 13 years ago

Pop-disc bimetallic thermostats switch at only one temperature, but the property of bimetallic expansion is in no way limited to switching at a single cutoff point.

Here's a bimetallic adjustable thermostat: http://catalog.selcoproducts.com/item/adjustable-controls/ad...

I'd be willing to make a large bet that a majority of people who brew both coffee and tea do so using boiling water or close to it. Black tea (breakfast tea) is best made with freshly boiled water, while I find coffee made with anything below 90C to be too weak - I generally use water made shortly off the boil when I'm using an Aeropress.

I have zero doubt digital thermostats are more accurate. That wasn't the point.

fnordfnordfnord2• 13 years ago

Thermocouple, RTD, Bi-metallic strip/coil, Silicon Bandgap, Thermistor, and I'm sure there are a few common types that have slipped my mind. Your statements are a gross over-simplification.

hvidgaard2• 13 years ago

I believe the reason he's going for a PID is the ability to reach the target temperature without overshooting. A PID would gradually reduce the power to the heating element as the temperature get closer to the target.

That said, the adjustable bimetallic solution is certain worth a try, it might just work good enough and be far cheaper and much more reliable in the long run.

TorKlingberg• 13 years ago

I don't think he can gradually control the power, just turn it on and off. A thyristor or something for kilowatts of power would be expensive. This makes a PID controller excessive: just heat until it reaches the target temperature and then turn it off. Turn it on again when the temperature has dropped a couple degrees if you want it to keep a temperature.

gameshot9112• 13 years ago

I happen to like the lcd screen console in the Tesla, so it was interesting how quickly the author lost much of the credibility I as the reader had given him when he falsely assumed that I too would agree that it was poor design.

estebank• 13 years ago

Read "The Design of Everyday Things". A touch LCD screen in a car is a demonstrably worse solution to car controls than old fashioned knobs and buttons that you can use while keeping your eyes on the road. I also see in that picture that the Tesla has a full color speedometer, which is a bad idea because it adds flair around the only thing you really care (current speed/rpm/is something broken?) and unless it has a night mode (which I have every reason to believe it does) it would be very bad for your night vision.

It sure looks slicker, futuristic and trendy, but it's nothing but a gimmick. Also, who needs to browse the web on a car? But I digress.

lerchmo• 13 years ago

Having used a tesla interface for over a year. I can't stand the 40 cryptic buttons in a regular car. Also I'm sure you can make similar arguments for a blackberry.

gameshot9112• 13 years ago

Thanks for the recommendation.

sleepyhead• 13 years ago

"Why Does A Good Kettle Cost $90+?" "Various manufacturing fixed cost (safety tests, product tests, etc) $5" "Marketing, stocking, etc fees $5"

These figures are just arbitrary. Weakens his argument.

VladRussian2• 13 years ago

in 2000 we bought stainless steel kettle for $70. Buying it i felt it was expensive, and there were cheaper plastic ones. My wife overruled. As usually she was right. In 2013 she said that its time to update (though the old one was still in pretty good shape and hadn't produced any issues during those 13 years with everyday usage - at morning once and several times in the evening), and we bought new, stainless steel, for $90 something. This time i didn't even said anything.

Giving the retail markup of say 50% and wholesale markup of say 30%, the difference at the manufacturer of $90 vs. say $50 becomes $31 vs. $17 ($10 vs $5 BOM :)

fleitz2• 13 years ago

$90 isn't bad, I paid $200 for one that steeps the tea as well.

It costs that much because I'd rather pay $200 than spend my weekend making a kettle (producer surplus). Next thing you know someone will be wondering why drinks cost $10 for $1-2 worth of ingredients.

If you want to save money just use a pot and boil the water in that, it's not like you really need a purpose built device for boiling water.

syncopatience• 13 years ago

An electric kettle uses a lot less energy than a pot on the stove to boil water. I wonder how much water you'd need to boil to break even?

fleitz2• 13 years ago

http://www.treehugger.com/clean-technology/ask-pablo-electri...

You'll save between $2.50 and $5.00 per year boiling one cup of water per day.

PhasmaFelis• 13 years ago

I read the article and most of the comments and I still can't figure out why on earth you would care how hot your teawater is, beyond "boiling"/"not yet boiling." All my life I have made tea with a ~$10 stovetop whistling kettle; no one has ever criticized it and it will never break.

staticshock• 13 years ago

Depending on how "into" tea you are, various teas require steeping for a specific duration of time under a specific temperature. See a website he mentions, steepster.com, where people talk almost exclusively about this topic.

memsom• 13 years ago

ACK!! Steep is an alien word. In the UK you "brew" tea. "A good brew" is a colloquialism for a nice cup of tea. Honestly, tea geeks, tea is just tea. Unless you paid a large sum of money for the actual product, you put a bag in the cup and pour boiled water on to it. Let it brew. Remove bag. Add milk and sweetener as desired. Done.

teaComposition• 13 years ago

So, for tea at least, and green tea in particular, water temperature is actually very important. This is often overlooked by people (at least in my experience in America). I've had many friends who claimed to hate Green Tea because it is bitter. But they changed their minds when I brewed them a cup and explained that it is important not to burn the leaves with hot water and then over-steep the tea---rather than boiling water you often want water considerably cooler, say 150-180 F, depending on the tea. You also don't want to steep for too long (often just a minute or two, again depends on the tea).

scotty792• 13 years ago

When I was younger I used to hate bitter tastes, I used to shiver when I tasted some. But at some point the only thing to drink at our office was the tea, and sugar ran out quickly so I adjusted. I barely feel bitter taste now and only if I put a tea bag in cup of hot water and drink it after a while without taking out the bag or stirring it.

laurencerowe3• 13 years ago

For black tea too, temperature is really important (it should be boiling). Never order black tea in the States, you'll receive a teabag along with container of tepid water.

enra• 13 years ago

Different tea varieties are best at different temperatures. It doesn't matter much if you use generic black teabags from the store, because the tea is usually quite old has lost most of the subtle tastes.

White, green, oolong or really any kind good black tea might require less than boiling temperatures to extract enough out of tea while preserving the taste or other wished effects of the tea. The temperatures, amount and the steep time might be different by each specific tea or batch.

So a kettle with a temperature control can be helpful and save time with tea or cooking if you want finer control than boiling - not boiling.

dredmorbius2• 13 years ago

You can achieve any temperature with a mix of boiling and cold water. A $0.99 food thermometer will work just fine for that. After a while, you should know what the proper proportions are.

Really, this is an overengineered solution.

aestra4• 13 years ago

You haven't had a proper cup of tea probably. ;)

Different teas require different water temperatures AND different steeping times for the best taste. Generally the less oxidized the tea the lower the water temperature. I find the worst offense is most Americans over steep their tea which makes it very bitter!

People who use a thermometer are very serious. I just guesstimate.

Also, get some high quality tea, the difference in taste is amazing and its not that expensive, only a few cents a cup.

Also - you can reuse tea leaves.

http://lifehacker.com/5697622/the-hackers-guide-to-tea

rmc6• 13 years ago

Also - you can reuse tea leaves.

Re-using tea bags (in the UK & Ireland) is a sign of someone who's very cheap and doesn't want to spend any money. Like someone who cuts their own hair to save money.

jeza• 13 years ago

Add a thermometer to the stovetop kettle and it'd be perfect! :-) I would much rather boil water with gas. It's cheaper and there's no risk that it will overload the circuit breaker.

cs02rm0• 13 years ago

I've never heard of anything other than using boiling water to make tea. And I'm British.

dagw2• 13 years ago

From what I've seen most British people are way behind on their hard core tea nerding. For most of my British friends tea is something you drink large quantities of, not obsess over.

btbuildem• 13 years ago

.. and in the replies to your comment you have the reason for "Why Does A Good Kettle Cost $90+?"

short_circut• 13 years ago

I wonder how much patent licencing adds to the cost. The author mentioned how wonderful of an idea this bimetallic strip was, but that means someone invented it and someone probably holds a patent on it. How much does it cost to use that innovation?

code_duck• 13 years ago

It's probable that that invention is old enough that is not currently under patent protection.

uiri• 13 years ago

Should be $0 since http://www.google.com/patents/US2987607 ought to be expired by now.

mng2• 13 years ago

The most difficult part is the grounding of it – which metal kettles are in sore need of, lest they give you an electric shock.

Appliances like these are generally 2-prong and therefore not connected to safety ground. Rather they are supposed to be "double insulated" for protection.

patio11• 13 years ago

Buy a container worth of kettles, register goodcheapkettles.com, sell them for a year, and this question will answer itself. Probably cheaper and more useful than studying business in undergrad.

yannk• 13 years ago

"water has ONE boiling temperature – 100 Celcius"

Well, if you are at sea level, that is.

Ygg2• 13 years ago

Or if you aren't using sea water, that is ;)

WalterBright• 13 years ago

Many startup businesses fail because they underprice their products. They underprice them because they do not account for what all of their costs are going to be.

zurn• 13 years ago

An easy way to get temperature controlled water with a standard kettle is to figure out how much cold water you need to add to the bottom of your mug before filling it with (just-boiled) water from the kettle. If you want more accuracy, you can use water from the fridge (which is better at keeping constant temperature than your cold water line).

maho• 13 years ago

water has ONE boiling temperature – 100 Celcius

This is not correct. The boiling point of water is a function of atmospheric pressure [1]. Weather changes the atmospheric pressure by up to 50mbar, which translates to a couple degrees of variation in the boiling point.

The pressure variation due to height is even more severe [2]. At an elevation of 3000m the atmospheric pressure is typically only 700mbar, which means that water boils at 90 degrees.

How does the basic bimetallic strip know the outside pressure and the boiling-point-curve of water so that is knows when to stop the kettle?

I don't think it knows anything about that. Instead I assume once the water starts boiling, the bubbling steam-"padding" around the heating element lowers the heat transfer rate from the heating element to the liquid. This means that the heating element will quickly get a lot hotter until it reaches the threshold temperature of the bimetallic switch.

[1] http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/boiling-point-water-d_926....

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_pressure

asgard1024• 13 years ago

Interesting. I was also wondering about this; how the kettle knows what the boiling point is, since it cannot just measure temperature, because it would boil out the water in the mountains.

I thought there is electronics which simply detects not only absolute temperature, but also change. Once the temperature stops changing and is around 100 degrees, it will stop.

dsuth• 13 years ago

Thermodynamics was never my favourite subject, but I suspect what happens is that the water boiling at the lower temperature created a higher pressure within the kettle (hence the screaming noise as pressure escapes the small nozzle), allowing the water to heat up to 100degC, and also the bimetallic strip.

maxerickson• 13 years ago

Somebody answered this elsewhere, there is a vent that directs steam past the strip. So it isn't heated directly by the water in the kettle, but by the steam that is given off after it boils.

rtpg• 13 years ago

I'm surprised that someone can simultaneously acknowledge how neat the solution for the $10 kettle is, and then say that "the magic is gone". Seeing this increases the magic for me.

dzhiurgis• 13 years ago

Get normal kettle. Boil the water. Wait x minutes. Voila.

scotty792• 13 years ago

Why anything but simplest faucets cost 50-200$ and just 2-3 models cost less than 20$?

Because it's reasonably durable decorative item so theres no shortage of people willing to part with their money because it's just 5 times as expensive but 100 times prettier.

The cheap ones are for people that just want faucet. Quality is pretty much the same.

anentropic• 13 years ago

Temperature controlled kettle...?? Isn't the point of a kettle to boil water?

gnaffle3• 13 years ago

Not necessarily. Different teas brew best at different temperatures. A quick and easy solution of course is to boil the water and let it sit for a while until the temperature drops.

arethuza• 13 years ago

A really good kettle as used by the British Army costs around £4.2 million - even comes with the ability to move around and shoot things:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Challenger_2#Crew_and_accommoda...

tehwalrus• 13 years ago

What do they teach in US schools? The three things I know they teach in UK secondary school physics (11-16s) are how to draw graphs wrong, how to wire a plug and how a kettle works!

Also, who doesn't have a cheap kettle? (I actually have a £20 one, because I wanted a high wattage so it boils quicker, but in my defense I got it free with nectar points[1]. It is still plastic and the on/off LED broke within a week, but it boils enough water for my enormous free hackathon mug in like a minute.)

[1] If you didn't know that Argos accepts nectar points, you're welcome. I have never paid for a kettle or microwave.

ccpks• 13 years ago

The estimate for cost of electronics is ludicrous. It is a micro controller, a relay, and a PSU. I can build that for $5 at low quantity. PID controllers cost $30 since you pay for low quantity and design. You can build ones from a $1 micro controller, or for even less in analog. Plus you do not need a pid. It makes no sense in that context. It is a thermostat.

They cost what they cost due to product differentiation and similar.

epaladin• 13 years ago

I wouldn't have thought to take apart a simple water boiler (at least not in recent years) so that was enlightening. Sometimes simple but functional designs can be fascinating, after getting to used to doing less with more (arduinos on everything) rather than more with less (completely mechanical control systems).

I have a zojirushi, but only with three temperature settings. Maybe I should mod it to fully variable... although I really want to make a teapot with a built in thermometer more than anything. The water heater wouldn't cool fast enough to really make the variable temp worth it.

rdl• 13 years ago

I just use the Tatung version of this Newegg-house-brand (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16896268...), a $30-40 insulated hot water dispenser. If I had the money to buy the perfect Zojirushi, or found one on sale, I might (they're only around $100-150 now; they used to be $200+).

fnordfnordfnord2• 13 years ago

1. Because that's what people will pay for one.

2. Why does anyone need or even want a kettle with a PID controller? Does he know that people used to boil water over a fire?

xedarius• 13 years ago

Sounds to me like he had a difficult chapter coming up in the book he was writing and went looking for a distraction. We've all been there.

contingencies2• 13 years ago

OK. So given all this thinking, where's the 3D printing era, JIT-manufactured, elegant hack in response that fundamentally rethinks the problem domain and is one with kettle-nature?

I guess the author is saying "kettle is a kettle is a kettle" (except for price, certain design features that don't really count).

One thing they left out of the estimate was the cost of passing national electrical safety regulator test regimes. As anyone who has actually produced new electronics can tell you, this can often be an expensive PITA... particularly for lower-volume products. 100,000 is not high volume.

Please contribute your kettle hack ideas in this thread.

contingencies2• 13 years ago

A kettle-element where it used sound to listen for the bubbling of water above instead of measuring heat and automatically dropped temperature. It could track immediate temperature variation (for pots within a certain distance) to attempt to detect waterless operation and perform a shutdown for safety (to prevent fire).

A kettle where it doubles as other things. There are a wide variety of essentially similar cooking appliances (pressure cookers, slow cookers, kettles, Iranian-style rice cookers with crispyness-control, standard or Chinese-style rice cookers, stovetops, etc.) which should be possible to combine more elegantly than the wasteful duplication of the present.

rowyourboat• 13 years ago

Why would you need a PID controller? All you need to do is power the heating element until your sensor reads the desired temp, then shut it off. A PID (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller) is way overkill.

Also "PID tuning"? What would there be to tune? There's some serious overcomplication going on here.

upofadown• 13 years ago

Pedantic twitch. You wouldn't need the "I"(integral) in PID as we can only drive the system one way. You hardly need the "P"(proportional) either, if you are just trying to figure out when to shut off the power. That leaves shutting off the power based on how fast the water is heating up. So really just "D"(derivative) control. Which is super simple. ... and that is even assuming that there is enough thermal mass in the heating coil compared to the thermal mass of the water to ever make a difference.

It is gotten to the point where I get a twitch whenever I see someone refer to the PID concept. In most cases it gets used in an inappropriate way.

Why Does A Good Kettle Cost $90+?

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