'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/12/if-i-need-id-to-buy-cough-syrup-why-shouldnt-i-need-id-to-vote/282636/

by nols • 13 years ago

26 117 13 years ago

theatlantic.com

mschuster914• 13 years ago

I don't know what the fuck makes me more sick:

1) that in the US, an electricity bill is sufficient for voting ID purposes (WTF)

or 2) that the US don't have mandatory ID cards. Even our new German ID cards only cost €20 apiece, and if you're too poor you can get benefits. Hello, ID fraud.

aeykie• 13 years ago

I don't know if it differs from state to state or even possibly county to county, but I got my first ID (in Florida), recently and it was 36 dollars and some change, so not to far off

toomuchtodo• 13 years ago

I'd argue Germany is ahead democracy-wise than even our most progressive US states.

freyfogle• 13 years ago

I'm both a German and US citizen, have lived back and forth between the two countries my entire life, and vote in both countries. Germany is definitely far ahead in the mechanics of democracy: ballot design, voter education, voter id, single set of coherent rules across the nation, etc. That's the benefit of having a great reset of the country a mere 70 years ago (or 23 years ago, depending on where in Germany).

bananacurve• 13 years ago

Yes. You have to register at the Police station when you move and hospitals have to report if patients are illegal aliens. Very advanced.

buckbova2• 13 years ago

I was given a national ID card, it's call a social security card. That is my unique identifying number as an American.

MichaelGG• 13 years ago

SSNs are not mandatory.

ceejayoz• 13 years ago

It's not particularly useful as an ID without an expiration, photo, etc. and you're supposed to keep it somewhere safe, not with you.

smsm428• 13 years ago

SSN weren't designed as unique identifying numbers - in fact, until 1972 the cards explicitly said it should not be used as such. It is also way too short to be unique ID within imaginable timeframe. The fact that it is used as such is because americans have no choice - no other common ID to use. Some use name + birthdate instead, but that's even worse.

viggity2• 13 years ago

IIRC, most states that have instituted voter id laws have made the cost of an ID free. Also, expired drivers licenses work as identification (for the elderly who have ceased driving).

meej• 13 years ago

Even if an ID is free, the documentation required to obtain one may not be free (like a registered birth certificate, for example).

Expired licenses do not work as ID under Texas' new ID law. There was a particularly egregious example of this earlier this year: http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2013/11/03/former-u-s-house-speaker-...

clavalle2• 13 years ago

An electricity bill /and/ being registered in your district. It is not like you can take an electricity bill to any poll location and vote.

20 Euros might not seem like much but if you are making minimum wage it can be significant. And what if you lose your ID? Or you don't have access to the documentation to get an ID right away? Or you are a college student and your residence is with your parents?

The fact is that voter fraud is not a big problem. Disenfranchising voters, however, is a problem. There are even 2000 page tomes on exactly how to go about it.

That's what makes /me/ sick.

zacharytelschow4• 13 years ago

"It is not like you can take an electricity bill to any poll location and vote."

It's exactly like that in 8 states + DC ( Idaho, Iowa, Maine, Minnesota, Montana, New Hampshire, Wisconsin, Wyoming, and Washington DC.): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Election_Day_voter_registration

mschuster914• 13 years ago

You need those 20€ only every four to eight years IIRC, and as said you can always apply for assistance if you're earning minimum wage.

cs02rm0• 13 years ago

Some people are a little squeamish about Germany's mandatory ID cards. I don't blame them really, I think we could all do with a better way of preventing electoral fraud without requiring people to hold state-issued IDs.

walshemj• 13 years ago

Well plenty of people in the USA and the UK have serious issues with mandatory ID cards.

And given Germanys recent past you should be the last Country in Europe to be happy about ID Cards.

cortesoft• 13 years ago

Not being required to have an ID card is something we Americans find to be an important freedom. Many (myself included) feel that requiring people to have an ID card is a slippery slope towards requiring people to show that ID card on demand. The idea of an authority figure being able to 'ask for your papers' is a scary one for us.

As the article said, voter fraud is NOT really a problem. No one has ever been able to demonstrate that people illegally voting or voting more than once has happened enough to ever change an election. We want to make it as easy to vote as possible to encourage everyone to vote.

mschuster914• 13 years ago

I consider the claims of fraud on George W. Bush's elections made by Michael Moore to be pretty sufficient...

Tomte4• 13 years ago

I think it's important to regularly point these issues out, because even though many of "us" intellectually know about them, it's still hard to emotionally grasp for "us", how ID cards could be a slippery slope, why freedom of speech should trump everything else, no matter what, or why home schooling should be allowed at all.

Cultures differ wildly, and it's hard to really accept that the other guy might have a valid point of view.

dragonwriter6• 13 years ago

Citing the War on (selected) Drugs to justify the War on Democracy! Yay!

zacharytelschow4• 13 years ago

If that doesn't appease you, how about... Driving a car. Renting a car. Staying in a hotel room. Flying on a plane. Opening a bank account.

Many, many things in life require photo ID. It's amazing how that's accepted as normal but somehow outrageous when voting is involved.

djur5• 13 years ago

None of those things are fundamental elements of democracy. Voting is.

raganwald• 13 years ago

Driving a car. Renting a car. Staying in a hotel room. Flying on a plane. Opening a bank account.

Many, many things in life require having money. It's amazing how that's accepted as normal but somehow outrageous when voting is involved.

dragonwriter6• 13 years ago

Many, many things in life require photo ID.

None of those things are fundamental rights of citizenship like voting.

It's amazing how that's accepted as normal but somehow outrageous when voting is involved.

It is, poll tax issue aside, a method which presumes ineligibility and puts the burden on the citizen to prove their eligibility (which most state ID schemes, given their documentation requirements, would be as voting prerequisites even if the costs were waived.)

tzs• 13 years ago

The ID requirement for renting a car or staying in a hotel is not designed to prevent people from renting cars or staying in hotels. It is to protect the rental company or the hotel from actual risks.

The recent ID laws for voting in the US are designed solely to prevent people from voting. The ID requirement are designed to require procedures and documentation that is hardest for poor people and minorities--coincidentally people who tend to not vote for the party that is pushing voter ID laws.

The proponents state it is to reduce voter fraud, but fraud based on exploiting a lack of ID requirements is close to if not nonexistent in the US.

callesgg2• 13 years ago

It is interesting how USA is portrayed as a leading country.

Amongst things, What is the point of having to register to vote.

All the fucked up bureaucracy that USA has reminds me more of a dictatorship than a democracy.

warble• 13 years ago

one person = one vote, so you need to track who voted. I don't think the way we do it is necessarily effective, but that's the justification.

Your other comments are probably justified though.

slurry• 13 years ago

Yes, but other countries do voting without the need to pre-register. Some US states (e.g. Iowa) do voting with same day registration.

I might actually be okay with an ID requirement if we also got rid of the previous registration requirement.

callesgg2• 13 years ago

Here in Sweden one just goes to the voting place(in ones district) shows their ID and one gets checked of the list.

The List is just a list of every one that lives in the area.

leot• 13 years ago

Any electoral fraud that relies on having bunches of people vote multiple times necessarily relies on there being a conspiracy of >100 people in order for it to be effective (this is the only kind of fraud that can be prevented by demanding that voters produce photo ID).

But if a conspiracy is required, then why not address that directly? Offer a $500,000 reward and immunity to any one who provides information about a conspiracy that could have changed the result of an election. Voila: no more "voter fraud".

zacharytelschow4• 13 years ago

How does vote fraud necessarily rely on a conspiracy? In many states, knowing someone's name and address is sufficient to vote as that person as long as they've previously registered. Any individual can show up at the polling place multiple times and vote as someone else and it would be very difficult to prove they'd done so.

wtvanhest• 13 years ago

Because you need a large enough number to actually make a difference. 1 person going from place to place voting over and over could only get a certain number of votes in over a few weeks.

Could one person put 200 votes in if they really worked at it? Maybe, but realistically 200 votes just won't do it. You basically need a conspiracy.

MichaelSalib10• 13 years ago

Let's say I show up at the polling place and try to vote in someone else's name. If they've already voted, then I'm in deep trouble. In fact, my polling place often has a police officer hanging out on election day. If they haven't voted but come to vote after me, they're in deep trouble. Either way, there's going to be a big stink and a police report. Moreover, I can't vote more than once in the same precinct: I need to go elsewhere lest I'm recognized, and in most of the US, elsewhere is actually quite far away.

It really doesn't make sense spending money to prevent attacks that are completely economically infeasible.

Besides, let's say we require ID for voting. Now, everyone who illegally voted before can continue illegally voting: all they have to do is get some fake IDs, which any bored teenager looking for beer can do.

qdog• 13 years ago

Most polling places are staffed by locals and will often recognize someone trying to commit fraud. If the person who you are trying to impersonate also votes, it will also trigger an event. Worst case you show up to vote after someone has already voted, you trigger this event and get busted.

Theoretically the only people you could safely impersonate would be dead and un-likely to be known to the pollster. Even if you found that, how many times could you vote? You'd risk someone recognizing you the second time, so you'd have to try and visit multiple polling places.

The most likely place for fraud to occur would be after the vote takes place: either in the counting system, or tampering with the votes. There is not much chance of changing enough votes simple by showing up and casting a physical ballot, unless you have a high enough number of people doing it (and somehow not getting caught and triggering an investigation).

rlanday• 13 years ago

I think the most common type of fraud that occurs is voting by people who are not eligible to do so (e.g., because they’re not US citizens). I don’t know on what scale this occurs, but I believe there have been documented instances. A lot of it is probably politically motivated (trying to make it easier vs. harder for lower-income, likely Democratic, voters to register), but the fear of a small number of non-citizens voting based on an immigration issue, for example, and thereby affecting the result of a close election seems at least plausible.

djur5• 13 years ago

That isn't fixed by voter ID schemes, though. For an ineligible person to register to vote is voter registration fraud, and you do have to prove your eligibility to register.

Voter ID schemes only prevent people voting under other voters' names, and that kind of fraud appears to be extremely rare.

zacharytelschow4• 13 years ago

In WI, if you can't afford an ID you can get one for free for voting purposes (heading "FREE Wisconsin ID cards for voting"): http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/drivers/drivers/apply/idcard.ht...

Agathos• 13 years ago

If I ever lose the right to buy cough syrup, I might win it back by voting.

If I ever lose the right to vote, can I win it back by buying cough syrup?

tptacek• 13 years ago

This might sound glib, but it is a big part of the kernel of Constitutional scholarship; Ely's _Democracy and Distrust_ goes into detail about substantive versus procedural due process and how the core of the effort is to "preserve the channels of democracy". In other words, Constitutional Law's most important job is to be a referee, to ensure that the political process isn't abused to lock groups of people out and, in doing so, to preserve injustices.

Restrictions that obstruct the channels of democracy should have an especially high burden of necessity to clear.

smsm428• 13 years ago

Americans lost rights to buy marijuana in 1937. Winning it back by voting turned out not that easy in next 70 or so years.

And, btw, if you try to still use you right to own marijuana, you become a felon, which - surprise! - means you lose rights to vote. See how nicely it works out?

Jtsummers4• 13 years ago

you become a felon, which - surprise! - means you lose rights to vote

Fortunately not in all states. Some allow you to vote, some allow you to vote after you're released or your sentence (including probation or just incarceration) is complete. [1]

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony_disenfranchisement#Unite...

viggity2• 13 years ago

i'm just going to put this right here:

http://imgur.com/78MF5i0

spindritf2• 13 years ago

The outcry in the US over requiring someone to show an ID to vote is one of the most bizarre things to come out of that country. And, to make it even more unusual, it's coming from the left, the very people who used to love issuing IDs, numbers, and whose intellectual and ideological predecessors set up most of those schemes.

Practically, as much as the anarchist in me doesn't like that, you cannot have a mass society without strong, trusted IDs so this is a lost cause. Get used to them.

djur5• 13 years ago

The American left is opposed to voter ID because it's a vote suppression scheme -- not all eligible voters have IDs or have access to obtain them. The voter ID bills have gone hand-in-hand with restrictions on early voting and same-day voter registration, which makes the intention clear. On the other hand, I have yet to see one of these bills accompanied by legislation intended to help people without IDs get them.

spindritf2• 13 years ago

I have yet to see one of these bills accompanied by legislation intended to help people without IDs get them.

I have just googled it and, apparently, it's a constitutional requirement to issue IDs at no cost if they're required to vote. Arkansas for example is waiting with the implementation of their voting ID law precisely for that reason.

The new law won't take effect until January or when funding is available for the state to provide free photo IDs required under the law, whichever is later.

http://www.arkansasonline.com/news/2013/jun/19/panel-reviewi...

smsm428• 13 years ago

Would it be fair to conclude that any setup that requires ID is a suppression scheme? I.e., if ID is required for travel - is it a travel rights suppression scheme? If the ID is required for real estate ownership - that is a real estate ownership suppression scheme? If the ID is required to own a firearm - is it a firearm ownership suppression scheme?

Note I'm not asking if IDs were used in the past to suppress votes - I'm sure there were cases where that happened. What you're claiming is that ID requirement and voter suppression is the same, which is much stronger claim. So what I am asking is this ID requirement that makes it suppression or how one can distinguish suppression ones from non-suppression ones?

dingaling• 13 years ago

not all eligible voters have IDs or have access to obtain them

In Northern Ireland, a country which traditionally suffered from electoral 'problems', people without ID can now apply for a free Electoral Identity Card as part of the electoral registration process.

A photo is required, but if applying in person then no other identity documents are required to obtain it.

It is useful in that it also gives them a first-step ID to open bank accounts and for domestic travel.

Jtsummers4• 13 years ago

not all eligible voters have IDs or have access to obtain them.

Not all eligible voters have IDs that satisfy the new rules. We always had to identify ourselves. My first vote was cast without a driver's license and I used (IIRC) some documents (school registration, student ID, birth certificate, not sure the combination) that satisfied the requirements at the time. I may have used my military dependent ID (a federal gov't issued photo ID). The majority of my classmates probably had driver's licenses, but there was a significant minority in the same boat I was.

dragonwriter6• 13 years ago

The outcry in the US over requiring someone to show an ID to vote is one of the most bizarre things to come out of that country.

There's a specific historical reason for it related to practices tied to Jim Crow (and the fact that the groups backing Voter ID now mostly have no evidence of actual problems that it solves, and are often tied to other make-voting-less-convenient-and-with-more-excuses-for-outright-denial policies.)

And, to make it even more unusual, it's coming from the left, the very people who used to love issuing IDs, numbers, and whose intellectual and ideological predecessors set up most of those schemes.

The reason its coming from what passes for "the left" (center-right instead of far right) in America is discussed above, but I don't think that this description of "the left" -- either what passes for left in America or the Left more generally -- is particularly accurate.

Practically, as much as the anarchist in me doesn't like that, you cannot have a mass society without strong, trusted IDs so this is a lost cause.

We've had mass societies for a long time without strong, trusted IDs.

nknighthb12• 13 years ago

I gather you're not from the US, and are unfamiliar with our civil rights history.

You can start here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disfranchisement_after_the_Reco...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_Rights_Act_of_1965

Voter ID laws are simply the latest play in a long history of attempts to disenfranchise minorities and the poor. They have no other practical purpose. There is no mass vote fraud occurring in the US. It's another red herring, like terrorism.

lifeformed• 13 years ago

I'm not too familiar on this issue, but how does requiring ID disenfranchise minorities and the poor? Don't they already have IDs?

Tomte4• 13 years ago

But that whole argument depends on the status quo in the US: many poor don't have ID cards already.

If you shift your view to the situation in other countries, it's easily answered: (almost) everyone has an ID card, so it cannot be used to disenfranchise minorities.

Issue ID cards to everyone and your problem should go away.

gertef• 13 years ago

Hint: The world makes more sense when you stop trying to force it into a "left vs right" model.

lnanek2• 13 years ago

The outcry is from the left because these laws are always by the right in order to make it more difficult for demographics that vote left to vote. They come from a long line of laws in a similar vein, such as literacy tests full of trick questions, etc.. The general idea is just to make it tough enough to vote that poor people can't.

mortyseinfeld• 13 years ago

And, to make it even more unusual, it's coming from the left, the very people who used to love issuing IDs, numbers, and whose intellectual and ideological predecessors set up most of those schemes.

You're right. "Let me see your papers comrade".

meddlepal2• 13 years ago

Everyone should have a secure, single identity card in any modern developed nation that can be used for identity verification. One card. Federal and State governments can assign privileges to the card (driving, medicare etc.). Even expand it so the card can be used to verify credit and debit card authenticity etc. That's my dream, but right now we are stuck in firmly in 20th century-modes of thinking about ID.

I'm long past the point of caring about the Government having some database of where I go or who I transact with. They seem to have been able to already figure out how to do it without my permission so let's just make this whole tracking thing transparent now.

Practically speaking, getting an ID in the United States right now is not difficult. Why do we keep excusing people from having a basic mechanism to prove who they say they are? If you cannot handle getting and maintaining an ID maybe one ought not be able to vote because you're just not responsible enough to handle it.

MichaelSalib10• 13 years ago

Why do we keep excusing people from having a basic mechanism to prove who they say they are?

Given that bored teenagers in search of beer can easily forge IDs, what makes you think current photo ID cards are an effective certificate for proving identity?

If you cannot handle getting and maintaining an ID maybe one ought not be able to vote because you're just not responsible enough to handle it.

See, this notion right here? This is literally unamerican. Americans get to vote. It doesn't matter if you think they're lazy or smell bad or if they don't demonstrate responsibility to your satisfaction: you don't get to decide which citizens can vote. A lot of people have died so that Americans can vote without your approval.

hrktb• 13 years ago

The first step for this is to have a national ID or something equivalent (some ID universally issuable)...and it seems very very far away yet.

bigdogc• 13 years ago

you cant make meth out of voting cards. you can out of cough syrup!

poke1112• 13 years ago

Why does everyone say that no large scale voter fraud ever happened in the US? What about the presidential election of 1960? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_elec...

Even small scale fraud is enough to tip a close election, and I don't think too many people doubt that it does happen.

holograham• 13 years ago

I think an interesting question is how many of the 21 million without IDs regularly vote (or have ever voted)?

Hypothesis: Less than 50%

poke1112• 13 years ago

Another data point that suggests that voter fraud is a real problem: The New York City Department of Investigation reported that their undercover agents were able to obtain fraudulent ballots with a 97% success rate. It's likely that fraud is happening and we just aren't aware of it:

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/367278/report-new-york-...

vampirechicken• 13 years ago

Right to vote vs right to Psuedoeffedrine?

'If I Need ID to Buy Cough Syrup, Why Shouldn't I Need ID to Vote?'

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