Burner Phone

https://www.burnerphone.us/

by rubyrescue • 13 years ago

317 222 13 years ago

rubyrescue• 13 years ago

Needs to be payable in bitcoin?

rdegges23• 13 years ago

One of the product creators here -- we're working on this :) We ended up launching the site today (a week earlier than expected), due to the press on the topic.

We'll have bitcoin support by tomorrow.

jgalt2122• 13 years ago

I think it's still better to walk into a random Walgreen's and purchase a burner there with cash.

rdegges23• 13 years ago

Hey, one of the creators here -- I wrote about this in another thread, but here's why we think we're better than physical stores:

- You can order the product online without making a physical appearance anywhere.

- Many of the prepaid cell phones in physical stores come with the SIM chips activated -- so the phone's location has already been broadcasted to cell towers and is pre-registered, making it slightly less anonymous for the end user.

- We're going to be accepting bitcoin in the near future (we're finishing that integration now), so we hope to compete with cash purchases in that regard.

- You can recycle these phones like you would normal phones.

- We piggyback off a ton of different US carriers -- so as you move around you'll be swapping between various carriers in your region.

gburt• 13 years ago

Still doesn't deal with the fact I have to give you my address...

nja2• 13 years ago

Then you're on the security camera footage. How would you avoid that?

eddieroger• 13 years ago

Hat and sunglasses? It sounds cliche, but the prosecution has the burden of proof, and if they can't make out your facial features or hair, and you don't arrive on a traceable mode of transportation (like, a bus would work), then it could have been anyone.

Terretta2• 13 years ago

The the "strip search prank call" suspect (fictionalized in the recent movie Compliance) was located through video footage of him purchasing "anonymous" phone cards with cash:

Learning that the call had been made with an AT&T calling card... they used the serial number of the calling card used to make the call, and learned that the card had come from a different [Panama City] Wal-Mart store than the card used for the Massachusetts calls. Using Wal-Mart's records of the second store, the cash register, and time of the purchase of that card, the police were able to find surveillance camera video of the transaction. Unlike the Massachusetts investigation, which had gone cold when surveillance video failed to show the purchaser because the cameras were trained on the parking lot and not the registers, the cameras at the particular store where the card used in the Mount Washington call was purchased were trained on the cashiers.

The buyer in the video was wearing a correctional officer's uniform for the private security firm Corrections Corporation of America. Video and stills from both Wal-Marts were compared and the same man was seen entering and exiting the Wal-Mart at the time of the earlier purchase. The police used this footage to produce a front-and-back composite image of the suspect, and subsequent queries to the private correctional company's human resources department led to the identification of the buyer as David R. Stewart.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strip_search_prank_call_scam

jgalt2122• 13 years ago

I'm sure there are burner retailers that don't have security cameras on 24/7 like Wal Mart. Or even if they do, they may recycle their tapes more quickly than Wal Mar would. Buy some burners now--wait six months until activating/using.

skaevola2• 13 years ago

He was also acquitted of all charges due to lack of evidence.

tocomment3• 13 years ago

Great idea! Thanks for making this. So what happens after 30 days, is there a way to recharge the phone minutes?

rdegges23• 13 years ago

Thanks! After 30 days, you can purchase a new SIM chip from us directly if you'd like -- but the existing SIM chip will be completely unusable.

Right now our site only sells the phone + chip together, but we can sell both the hardware phone and SIM chips separately as well (3 day, 7 day, 14 day, and 30 day SIM chips).

Due to our early launch (this is our MVP), we don't have those advertised on the website yet (although, if you email us, we can arrange something).

josscrowcroft• 13 years ago

I recommend maybe doing a deal, phone + multiple SIM cards ($x each per SIM)

Then we could order in bulk, use a temporary address, and have enough for a year's anonymous talking without needing to make another order..

tocomment3• 13 years ago

Who did your web design? I love it.

citizens• 13 years ago

http://themeforest.net/item/kameleon-premium-business-produc...

fatbat• 13 years ago

Is it biodegradable?

drglitch• 13 years ago

So what happens when the government (or IRS) persuades you to not destroy transaction logs with a $5 wrench? http://xkcd.com/538/

rdegges23• 13 years ago

We're committed to this product, not only for our users, but also for ourselves.

We value our privacy HIGHLY, and wouldn't be open to selling out. We'd much rather just close down the company than destroy our core principles.

rolleiflex• 13 years ago

If there were some sort of a dead man's switch in your service ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_man's_switch ), this would be a lot more believable.

cunac• 13 years ago

Churchill: "Madam, would you sleep with me for five million pounds?" Socialite: "My goodness, Mr. Churchill... Well, I suppose... we would have to discuss terms, of course... " Churchill: "Would you sleep with me for five pounds?" Socialite: "Mr. Churchill, what kind of woman do you think I am?!" Churchill: "Madam, we've already established that. Now we are haggling about the price”

Just negotiate in opposite direction :-)

rdegges23• 13 years ago

Hey all, I'm one of the creators of BurnerPhone, and just wanted to leave a comment with a few facts about the product.

We weren't really planning on launching this thing so quickly (we planned on making improvements to the site, etc. and launching in the next couple of weeks) -- but since all the press about the NSA / phone stuff came out it seemed like a good time to put our MVP online.

Anyhow, we're basically trying to provide our users with a secure-as-possible communication device that allows them to remain as anonymous as possible. Yes -- the government can definitely collect call data and SMS data, but by using different devices and SIM cards (phone numbers) you can abstract away all but the most difficult to track details: your voice, your writing style (sms messages).

Using a BurnerPhone allows you to make phone calls and send SMS messages that won't be linked back to your by your telco billing records.

In regards to how we work:

- These phones come with unlimited talk and text for 30 days, nationwide coverage.

- We piggyback off of tons of US carriers, so depending on where you're located, you'll be connected to a different cellular network.

- You can recycle these phones (we have a lot of plans with this in the future).

I'd love to get some feedback from you guys, really respect HN and your opinions.

axus2• 13 years ago

Sounds great! Doesn't a shipping record from BurnerPhone's warehouse to John Doe's address kind of spell things out, though?

rdegges23• 13 years ago

We don't keep these records -- after we ship we destroy it.

The USPS would have records for this sort of thing, of course, but you could also have items shipped to PO Boxes, places that offer greater anonymity, etc.

Furthermore, it's very unlikely that within 30 days of usage you'd be tracked down / monitored and have records queried like that.

It's definitely not a perfect system, but we're working on it :)

j-m-o• 13 years ago

Congratulations on the launch, I hope everything goes well.

A list of carriers I think would be useful, or a way to verify that the phone will work in your area (e.g. zip code or phone number lookup).

Also, is it US only? Any support for Canadian carriers?

rdegges23• 13 years ago

Thanks for the comment!

It's all US only right now, we're going to include a coverage chart shortly (we didn't expect so many visitors).

We piggyback off many US carriers, so our coverage is excellent.

douglasisshiny3• 13 years ago

Did you get the idea for the name of the product from The Wire?

rdegges23• 13 years ago

Hah, no. Myself and my partner both work in the telephony industry, and are familiar with the name 'burner phone' (sounds kind of cool, usually refers to those spy phones that get thrown away in movies).

arkades3• 13 years ago

The wire didn't coin the term. Burners have been burners for... well, I've been familiar with it since the 80s, so at least 3 decades now.

cakeface3• 13 years ago

Does the 30 day talk time start when you get the phone? Or after you make a call? I'm curious if this is something that you could buy and then hold on to as a backup or emergency phone.

rdegges23• 13 years ago

It starts after you turn the phone on for the first time -- you can purchase these in advance and activate them when you're ready to use them.

ISL2• 13 years ago

Are you willing to insure, in real money terms, the privacy of your customers from leaks/warrants at your end?

If so, how much? Can that money be held in escrow by a third party?

Are you willing to go to jail for your customers? For how long?

If a customer orders 134 phones ($10k), will you comply with any relevant federal financial disclosure guidelines?

If served a national security letter that includes a gag order, how will you react?

Will you accept cash transactions through the USPS, with only $75 and an address enclosed?

Can you prove that records are not kept? How?

These questions are partially rhetorical, but for people who want/need anonymity, they're important.

edit, to keep questions in one spot:

How do you anonymize shipping? It's straightforward to find ways to accept anonymous payment, but how do you keep the Man from following all outbound packages from burnerphone?

What are advantages over buying a gift card with cash and purchasing a phone online or through an intermediary?

rdegges23• 13 years ago

Hi ISL,

We're totally aware that we need to be a lot more explicit and include more information on our site about the product / processes / security stuff. We've been working on this for a while now, but kind of rushed the launch due to the recent press over the NSA stuff -- we figured it was better to launch early than delay.

We're actively working on answering all those questions, and will be including a page which covers all the security aspects fully in the next week-ish.

We're 100% dedicated to making this work for our users (and ourselves), and providing real security for people.

jnbiche• 13 years ago

That $10,000 limit you're thinking of only applies to money service businesses. Specifically, it's from the Bank Secrecy Act and is invoked in reference to negotiable instruments.

nostromo• 13 years ago

You should accept bitcoin so that the bank and the NSA won't have a list of all of your customers.

edit: I see in another comment that you're adding this (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5840440)

Also, if you want to prevent tracking at the USPS -- ship the phones in unmarked boxes with postage purchased with cash. Don't use a return address and randomize the post-offices drops you utilize to send the packages.

rdegges23• 13 years ago

Working on this now -- we should have Bitcoin support by tomorrow.

OlivierLi• 13 years ago

Using a preloaded credit card bought with cash also works in a pinch.

Justsignedup• 13 years ago

Fun problem:

When the phone is turned on, the phone communicates with cell towers. This can approximate your location. To be truly anonymous (as much as possible) you should have the phone cut ALL communication with the cell towers. When you make the call, the antenna turns on, call is made, antenna turns off.

Additionally if the phone can be configured to use wifi for phone calls, then ideally you decrease the possibility of the location being tracked.

If the phone is on in theory authorities should be able to pull records from the cell companies and track every place the carrier of the phone visited.

For added shipping security always ship from a VERY high volume shipping place. This way its hard to isolate your package, but not impossible.

mey• 13 years ago

Some business advice, you are opening yourself up to interesting levels of CC fraud (desirable good, lack of needed info, lack of data for pattern checking). Which if chargebacks don't directly kill your bottom line, the payment networks will simply cut you off for your high fraud.

rdegges23• 13 years ago

We're hoping that once we start accepting Bitcoin a majority of purchases will be done through that medium.

We've got copy prepared which urges users to pay with Bitcoin due to security concerns, and should have this up tomorrow.

RobSpectre• 13 years ago

Randall - this is awesome! Congratulations on your launch.

nnq• 13 years ago

Does it have cool special features like a microphone that ca be turned on (preferably even when the phone is off) and used as a room bug? My current phone has this and I'd really miss living without it.

lostlogin3• 13 years ago

Woah.. What do you use this feature for?

tnorthcutt• 13 years ago

What is your current phone that has this feature? Sounds interesting.

elorant• 13 years ago

Do you have any plans of selling it abroad in the future?

h4pless2• 13 years ago

Have you guys consulted an attorney and tax professional to verify all of this is legal? Maybe I'm just naive but it sounds like by destroying all records of every sale and shipment, you guys might be setting yourselves up to get shitfucked if the IRS comes after you with an audit. But then again I don't know much about the telecom industry or their reporting standard.

smcnally• 13 years ago

Less than 6% of business reporting less than $5MM / year are audited. If the IRS might take especial interest in this business, we're getting back to why this business is getting attention from this crowd.

h4pless2• 13 years ago

Actually, one more question. I see that you're marketing the Tank T190 phone by Blu which can be purchased on Newegg for $25 (http://bit.ly/ZyKBHA) and packaging it with an unknown 30 day data plan with talk and text which sounds very similar to the 30 day talk + text ReadySIM card which retails for $40 (http://bit.ly/13qyhtM). I guess what I'm wondering is what your company is adding to this equation for the extra $10 aside from being a middle man to obscure the trail? Also have you obtained permission from Blu to use their imagery?

beachstartup• 13 years ago

I guess what I'm wondering is what your company is adding to this equation for the extra $10 aside from being a middle man to obscure the trail

probably nothing. this is what's known as a "value proposition"

aet• 13 years ago

It says to "throw away" the phone on the website, not to recycle it.

rdegges23• 13 years ago

You can do either. This is our MVP and we didn't yet have a chance to write all the copy the way we wanted.

We're working on improving the site / product a lot, and will definitely talk about recycling. We're also considering a program where after 30 days are up, you send us the phone back and we'll get it shuffled around.

lifeguard3• 13 years ago

Do you deny all GSM technology have state accessible wiretapping built in?

Also, your product is less anonymous than paying cash for a pre-paid phone at a store because you ship it to a physical address.

Buying this phone from you instead of NewEgg is worse for privacy because with traffic analysis it will be easy to identify the sales to you as opposed being mixed it with the 9k orders NewEgg gets a day.

Why should people trust you not to be a FBI run honeypot (like they do with warez BBS, etc. etc. ad nausium)?

lifeguard3• 13 years ago

The silence is deafening.

throwaway203984• 13 years ago

Any idea what the implications for taking this device out of the country are, given the number of carriers you guys rely on? If you could elaborate on how you guys deal with the carrier networks, I'd be really interested, but I understand if you don't want to.

Great idea, by the way.

EDIT: Ooops, just saw your response to the Canada question below. Ignore this.

rdegges23• 13 years ago

UPDATE: We now support Bitcoin! ^^

quasque2• 13 years ago

Your target market seems to be the unwise and the gullible: even the purchase of one of these overpriced phones is made using a reasonably anonymous currency (e.g. tumbled Bitcoins) there is a still a record of delivery address.

Thus, these phones of yours are completely unsuitable for any sort of serious anti-Government whistleblowing, and probably inappropriate even for criminal communication, given the ease by which electronic records can be accessed by the various police authorities.

This is either a deliberate scam, or a really stupid business idea.

Ilmesnkie_Jones• 13 years ago

I think the market will be more the ineffective but paranoid types. Anyone who wants to be truly anonymous will work hard to reduce, not increase, the amount of interaction other people have with their plan.

The old saying "two can keep a secret if one is dead" is apt as using this service only adds extra layers of things that can go wrong and are out of control of the person buying the burner phone. The only way I could see this as even potentially useful is to maybe buy the phone and store it in case its needed in the future hoping by the time its needed the trail has gone cold.

Giszmo2• 13 years ago

don't blame this startup for trying. i don't know how big a cut the telcos take and yes, a phone should not be that expensive but we'll see where the price goes. for a start, higher prices are completely normal and later hopefully some competition will bring the price to more reasonable levels. ultimately anonymous would it only be if wallmart started buying them in bulk and people could grab one at the counter paying with cash.

yoster3• 13 years ago

Unless you actually created the phone itself, all you are doing is putting a Sim card in it, and calling it a BurnerPhone. No offense, but I can't just buy an iPhone, put a Sim card in it, and call it the YoPhone.... Can you clear up the fact that you make the phone or you buy it yourself in bulk?

nwh• 13 years ago

All phones have a unique identifier that is sent along with the SIM identification. Fairly easy to connect your "anonymous" SIM with any others you've used.

chrischen• 13 years ago

I'm generally curious if there will be any (or many) "legitimate" (using it for a genuine belief in privacy for the sake of privacy) users of this phone? I mean, it costs more than a traditional cell-phone plan presumably and with fewer features... so anyone actually using this probably has something to hide to go through this length (or he is Richard Stallman).

steveinator• 13 years ago

Two bullet points from the site:

- Unlimited talk and text for 30 days.

- 16 hour talk time.

I'm confused. Which is it?

rdegges23• 13 years ago

16 hour talk time is the amount of battery life you'll have if you're on the phone for 16 hours nonstop talking.

You get 30 days of unlimited talk / text, so if you talk for more than 16 hours on the phone you'll need to recharge using the charging cord that comes with the phone.

Sorry for the confusion there.

ggoodale• 13 years ago

The 16 hour talk time is in reference to the battery life of the phone, I'm guessing (the next bullet references 30 days' standby time).

bradleyland• 13 years ago

Anything but cash/bitcoin leaves too much of a trail. Just because you destroy your records doesn't mean your merchant bank does. Nor does it mean my bank will.

rdegges23• 13 years ago

We're adding bitcoin right now (will be available in the next day).

We launched this early due to press on the subject, which is why it's not as polished as we'd like it to be =/

elliottcarlson• 13 years ago

I would add a note about that now so people know it is coming and you don't lose a potential customer because they saw the site today and had the same opinion of the parent comment.

anaptdemise• 13 years ago

"We launched this early due to press on the subject"

So prematurely launching an incomplete and unvetted security/anonymity product to profiteer from momentary spikes in hysteria and paranoia is disingenuous at best. Besides all of the issues of payment, shipping, trust, legality, etc. that have already been raised, what is your companies qualifications to provide for secure/anonymous service?

CrazedGeek• 13 years ago

How much of a trail do prepaid cards leave? (I honestly have no idea.)

arkades3• 13 years ago

As much as any normal credit card. They're linked to your social security number.

mbreese• 13 years ago

At most though, it would say that you bought a burner phone, not what the number was... so you still have some deniability.

chatmasta• 13 years ago

Where should we ship this to?

steeve• 13 years ago

Sorry to say but you still have to pay by credit card (huge trail), and even if you use bitcoin, you still have to have the phone delivered somewhere, and to someone.

rdegges23• 13 years ago

That's correct -- it's definitely not perfect, but we're working on it.

One of the things to keep in mind, however, is that even if you order this phone and use it, it's highly unlikely that any organization will be able to track your phone within a 30 day period -- and even if they do, and they realize the phone is a BurnerPhone (unlikely), if they come talk to us we have no records of which phone was sent where, or even where things are shipped.

They'd have to query the USPS, and then they'd have to speculate as to which phone went to the person in question.

natrius• 13 years ago

What happens when you get a National Security Letter that demands both longer data retention and your silence?

shortly• 13 years ago

it's, um, not illegal to buy a phone?

refurb2• 13 years ago

How does this work? I thought the gov't required identifying information to be gathered when selling a cellular phone?

What are the regulations?

If the gov't wants to track down the owner of a phone, what do you do? Just say that you don't have that information?

rdegges23• 13 years ago

Correct -- we literally keep no information here, so it's impossible for us to give information away.

lisper• 13 years ago

But we have to take your word for that, right? How do we know you're not a front for an NSA sting operation? (Feel free to treat that as a rhetorical question :-)

refurb2• 13 years ago

OK, but I wonder, are you breaking any laws?

I see two possible outcomes of this business model:

1. The gov't catches wind, demands you keep proper records and you say "no" so they shut you down. 2. The gov't comes to you asking for identifying information for a customer, you say "no" and they shut you down.

I honestly don't know that much about it, so I can't claim that these two are the only possible outcomes.

Can you provide more details? What are the regulations? Do you have a plan if the gov't comes knocking?

nikcub• 13 years ago

Why doesn't someone just built a Tor hidden service that is an interface to the Twilio (or similar) API? Sign up with Bitcoin, get a phone number and then send/receive SMS and send/receive calls using DAP/getUserMedia (html5 mic + audio) in a web browser.

Using a physical cell phone still leaves a trace of the purchase, shipping, physical call location, cell site pings, etc. Plus in a lot of jurisdictions it is now a legal requirement to verify identity and adress with issuing phone numbers.

Using a Tor hidden service (+VPN, etc.) I could be anybody anywhere in the world. Less bits figured out.

edit: apologies if this is hijacking the thread

RaphiePS• 13 years ago

Twilio even has an in-browser VoIP client: http://www.twilio.com/client

foobarqux• 13 years ago

Latency would make voice impractical.

millerm• 13 years ago

In this case, wouldn't it be acceptable? I mean, if we stay in the context of a burner and security is the main feature, would it matter so much if it was like basically talking on a half-duplex voice call? Again, if the main goal is security and anonymity, would it matter so much if the conversation wasn't as fluid as a 'regular' call?

BHSPitMonkey• 13 years ago

Maybe make it walkie-talkie style, like those old Nextel phones?

AJ007• 13 years ago

TorFone estimates 3-4 seconds of latency. Usable, but not practical.

yolesaber• 13 years ago

It doesn't seem as though Twilio accepts Bitcoins. In this case, would it be that whoever is running the Tor hidden service would have to purchase the account themselves and their reimbursement would be BTC?

zhemao2• 13 years ago

Like others have said, voice would be impractical over Tor or VPN. Text would be better. The thing that most comes to mind is DeadDrop http://deaddrop.github.io/.

rdegges23• 13 years ago

Damn, it looks like this article just got banned from the front page of HN. =/

cakeface3• 13 years ago

I still see it on the front page.

nvr219• 13 years ago

What, no sign in with facebook button?

jcromartie• 13 years ago

Every time you make a purchase we'll package and ship your order, then destroy all transaction records in our system. We make it impossible to give or share your information with anyone.

Come on. There is absolutely no way you can convince anybody of this fact. It is impossible (and I mean this in the mathematical sense) to prove that you have no record of how it was purchased or where the phone went.

joshuahedlund• 13 years ago

Don't some kind of minimal transaction records generally need to be kept for tax purposes?

rz2k• 13 years ago

Since all mail has to be sorted to reach its destination, and there's little reason to expect that shipper and recipient data is given an expectation of privacy it probably does not even matter whether the company keeps records.

I suppose it is safe to assume that it would be unknown which SIM card is inside of the package, but having a list of recipients in a given area code and merely noticing when SIM cards came online in that area would be somewhat of a give away.

It seems like the phone would just encourage anyone performing surveillance that you are more likely to be communicating something they'd find interesting, and therefore they might spend more resources on looking at these customers.

I think it serves the public good when more people communicate in ways that can not be traced or listened in on, but I don't think it serves specific customers of this service if they have concerns about their own anonymity, and might be doing things like disclosing information about official corruption.

pkulak• 13 years ago

If you need to coordinate your criminal activities all The Wire-like, why not just use some form of encrypted communication using the phone you already have? Maybe just get one for criminal activity only to be extra safe? Aren't all these problems solved by some 2048-bit encryption? I guess the phone company can see which IP you're making a connection too, but that doesn't seem like much. Why do we have to waste this much perfectly good hardware just to be anonymous?

scott_karana• 13 years ago

The timing of an attack tied to your identity can be really damaging.

socillion• 13 years ago

One good reason to use a different phone is geolocation data (determined from which cell towers you connect to) which is classified as "metadata" and potentially stored indefinitely. If your cell is turned on, your phone company knows where you are.

nitrogen• 13 years ago

I guess the phone company can see which IP you're making a connection too, but that doesn't seem like much.

It may not seem like much, but it's actually everything. Social network analysis gives a significant amount of information about peoples' activities, even if those activities themselves are encrypted.

CanSpice• 13 years ago

The government said "trust us" too. I'm not entirely sure why anybody who wants to buy an untraceable phone would go to a website run by an unknown person to buy one. There are so many ways that this could go wrong for the phone purchaser.

I'm thinking either this is a spoof site where in a week's time you'll just say "Ha! Look at all this private information you just gave a complete stranger!" or it's a government-run honeypot.

rdegges23• 13 years ago

Not sure what I can do to prove this to you since we just launched and don't have much of a history, but I'm happy to answer any questions.

I'm a programmer at a telephone company currently, and have worked in the telco industry for a while now.

I have no government affiliations at all.

monkeynotes• 13 years ago

I have no government affiliations at all.

Nice try CIA ops.

AsymetricCom• 13 years ago

What chipset do you use to manage baseband communications? Do you implement any Trusted Computing standards? Can you tell us anything about the hardware architecture?

masukomi• 13 years ago

That was my thought too. If i'm so concerned about security there is no way I'm going to trust a web site like this. Even if we give rdegges the benefit of the doubt and say he actually is, there's no way to know that 2 weeks from now the govt doesn't hijack / buy the site, OR that they don't just start tailing these guys on their trips to the post office. Great way to find people with a better-than-average likelyhood of being up to no good.

mirkules• 13 years ago

Exactly. It actually got me thinking if burner phones are already modified (either hardware or firmware) to basically be the man in the middle. There was a big problem with Chinese-supplied hardware in the US gov't which was modified for snooping. My tinfoil senses tell me it would be relatively simple to modify older phones to, for example, send GPS signals even when the battery is not in by adding a smaller hidden power supply that recharges off the main battery when the main battery is in the phone.

I guess the only way to be sure is by not using a mobile phone at all.

coherentpony• 13 years ago

Do all the phones look the same? Because if so, "If you'd like to recycle your Burner when you're done using it, just throw it into any cell phone disposal box (these can usually be found at office supply stores)."

Ummmm.

marcamillion2• 13 years ago

I know this has been said before....but I just couldn't help but chuckle at the irony of a "completely anonymous" phone, only able to be bought with a credit card :|

rdegges23• 13 years ago

This is 100% due to us launching earlier than expected (with all the press about the NSA stuff).

We're implementing bitcoin purchasing right now, will have it ready by tomorrow.

Sorry for the inconvenience =/ I realize it's not perfect, but we're working on it ^^

marcamillion2• 13 years ago

I know...you guys made a good call. Launching in the midst of this storm is very clever.

I wish you all the best!

pyre• 13 years ago

Pre-paid credit card bought with cash?

guyht• 13 years ago

Whats your moral stance on your business? There are a lot of legitimate uses for your product, but its also (for obvious reasons) very attractive to people involved in criminal activities. Will you be putting any measures in place to counteract this?

For example, lets say you were regularly getting orders to a foreign country which is known to be a hot spot for terrorism. Then, you have the police knocking on your door, because there has been a major terror threat in a US city, and they need to track the terrorists phones.

I can guess the answer, but just want to make the point there are usually 2 sides to an anonymous service like this.

obviouslygreen• 13 years ago

This just isn't a useful question. I can understand where it comes from, but "this could be used for bad things" puts it in exactly the same camp as cash, cars, anything heavy enough to throw at someone, and pretty much... well, everything.

If the service were "weapon specifically designed to kill large Rhinoceri and then instantly sever their horns" or "phone that will encrypt and forward only narcotic-trafficking-related conversations," this point would be valid.

slg2• 13 years ago

Can someone provide a few examples of legal use cases for this type of thing? I understand people who want to protect their personal information, but these are going way out of their way to actively conceal their personal information. I just don't know why that would be a priority unless you are trying to hide something. I am not usually in the "you have nothing to fear unless you are hiding something" camp, but these seem pretty extreme.

ricardobeat• 13 years ago

Does it still sound "pretty extreme" after the news on PRISM?

slg2• 13 years ago

Yes. The answer to this scandal is not making it technically harder for the government to get our information. I would compare it to DRM/piracy issue. Most of us on HN would agree that creating new, more onerous, and more difficult to crack DRM is not the answer to piracy. You instead convince pirates that it is more ethical, easier, or less risky to purchase something than pirate it.

The general citizen is not going to win a spy game against the NSA. Our only hope of preventing something like this from happening again is to put legal penalties and precautions in place to make sure that the government does not overstep its bounds. Using burner phones isn't going to accomplish anything.

lambda• 13 years ago

What's legal and what's right aren't always the same thing. For example, in Nazi Germany, it was illegal to be Jewish; and communicating heavily with Jews may have increased suspicion that you were Jewish. Or in Rwanda in 1994, communicating with Tutsi's may have given rise to suspicion that you were a Tutsi. Or in North Korea today, communicating with defectors may raise suspicion that you are likely to defect.

Here are some legal, or questionably legal but morally correct things you may use this for, in the modern day US: you would like to notify news organizations about a secret NSA spying program, but don't know who to trust, since some news organizations may hand your information over to the federal government when pressured to do so, to root out the source of the leak.

You are a lawyer for a detainee in Guantanamo. To collect evidence, you need to contact several people who you know are on terrorist watch lists, but want to avoid being placed on such a list yourself and be restricted from flying.

You have are in the process of divorcing an abusive husband who is a high-ranking FBI official. You want to be able to contact your lawyer and his, without worrying that he may abuse his authority to find out information about where you are now living.

You are a founder of a whistleblowing operation, which has recently done a large exposé on US forces killing innocent children in the Middle East. You would like to keep in touch with your friends and family, without them also being added to watch lists that cause all of their electronics to be confiscated every time the fly.

You are helping to get information out of China about human rights abuses about Tibet. Given that the Chinese government has done hacking deliberately targeting surveillance back doors of networking systems of US companies, you worry that they may be able to track you.

stonemetal• 13 years ago

Say you were going to be a whistle blower for some Government scandal. You want to communicate with the NY Times but you don't trust the government to not subpoena the phone records, any email records, etc. A phone that isn't linked to you sounds like a good idea.

darkstar999• 13 years ago

Whistleblowing?

JumpCrisscross• 13 years ago

Finance. Perhaps this is a knock-on effect from the industry's drug use in the 1980s, but traders are a paranoid bunch. Client communications have to be recorded, but it is not uncommon for hedge funds to have highly sensitive discussions in bug-free rooms or via encrypted voice calls (who we are talking to is of less concern to be known than what we are saying). Traders who slack on security tend to get mopped up fairly quickly.

daenney• 13 years ago

Why is this $75? The cheapest phone around is about $20, the Nokia 105 comes to mind for example. Add some dollars for the calls, texts and your margin $75 seems a bit steep.

chadcf2• 13 years ago

That's what I'm wondering, how is this any different than going to a local store and paying cash for a burner Net10 phone? You can get them for $15 and they include enough minutes for most people to get through a month, and if you don't use a CC or store loyalty card there is no way for anyone to tie the phone to you.

nja2• 13 years ago

What about the security cameras at the store?

Dirlewanger• 13 years ago

People gotta feed their families man.

bluedino• 13 years ago

In 24, Jack only uses a phone once and then smashes it. How anonymous is a phone I've been using for a whole month?

marquis• 13 years ago

Some good advice posted: http://www.wired.com/opinion/2013/05/listen-up-future-deep-t...;

mwally• 13 years ago

You are not required to use it all month. If you want to smash the phone, go for it.

davidmr• 13 years ago

Out of curiosity, did you consult with attorneys before launch? I'm completely unqualified to answer the question, but I would think there's a possibility you could land yourself in a bit of a pickle if you shipped one that was later impounded in a law enforcement operation. It seems clear that you wouldn't have known it would be used illegally, but that wouldn't stop someone from ruining your month.

(Congrats, of course)

zachgersh• 13 years ago

Irony that you need to use a burner laptop to order your burner phone?

runjake• 13 years ago

I'm curious about two things:

1.) How do you comply with E911 laws that require addresses for the end user? Whatever carrier you deal with will likely terminate any contracts it has to, upon discovery.

2.) How does the shipment process work? You may delete all records of the purchase transaction, but you're still shipping via UPS/FedEx/USPS/Etc and all of those maintain records on source/destination addresses and various other shipping details (size/weight/approx cost).

lifeguard3• 13 years ago

1) GPS/GSM built into phone hardware

2) He said they destroy all records in their operation, but of course UPS/FedEx/USPS/Etc will maintain records

jarek• 13 years ago

Yeah, this is a joke. "Send your address to a stranger over the internet so they can ship it from a warehouse employing a small number of large corporations so you can be anonymous!"

Pay-as-you-go phones bought in a grocery store are more "burner" than this.

alinspired• 13 years ago

unfortunately i have to question how long this operation can survive in US

cdjk3• 13 years ago

Other people have commented on the payment issue - I'm glad you're looking into bitcoin.

I'd be worried about delivery, too. I know you say you destroy customer information immediately, but if I'm truly paranoid I'm not going to trust that statement - I'd rather pay someone on craigslist to buy a bunch of prepaid phones for me.

I'm just brainstorming, but would it be possible to set up some sort of physical tor/mixmaster style forwarding that would keep the final destination of the phone from ever being known to you? I'm not entirely sure how that would work, and it would probably be open to abuse, but it's an interesting thought.

Also, could you consider posting something like rsync.net's warrant canary?

http://www.rsync.net/resources/notices/canary.txt

It's not perfect, but it is a nice touch.

fatman2• 13 years ago

Regarding delivery - Maybe something like a BufferBox paid for with cash/bitcoin? Does this exist?

tjohns• 13 years ago

I think they're called "vending machines". ;)

lostlogin3• 13 years ago

Shipping is tricky, but as someone go has worked at medium and large firms, I know what I'd do. Ship to some random company using their street number, with a fake recipient name. Walk in to the reception, explain that you addresses something wrong, show a fake ID and get the parcel. The number of issues with stuff being posted, misaddressed etc are huge at a decent sized company. There are always random parcels sitting around, couriers collecting, swapping, and delivering. I'm sure this isn't foo proof but its what I'd do.

skaevola2• 13 years ago

SV begins monetizing the drug trade.

virgoguy• 13 years ago

even https://www.burnerphone.us/ is informing google (and a few other sites) when you visit.

DocG• 13 years ago

Although, I do see potential for this, pay with credit/debit card? It will be traceable who do I call, also it will show up in my card records. Also, there is going to be some record where it was sent. It will be probably sufficient for most users, but not all.

I have it a little bit better, but not perfect.

For 15 euros I will get phone + prepaid card. I can buy it from any local gas station or kiosk or mall, I can have some homeless to buy it for me.

Prepaid over here means, it is as simple as old school phone cards. No name, no bank accounts, no contract, no credit/debit card. Cash and goodbye.

I can also allow roaming just by sending sms to specific number(if it is not allowed), it will work almost everywhere(although the prices will be pretty high)

(source(sorry, translator don't work with https https://www.elisa.ee/et/Eraklient/konekaart/konekomplekt/eli...)

gesman• 13 years ago

I think it impossible for you to prove that you're not an outlet setup by the government monitoring service.

rscale2• 13 years ago

If anybody needs true, total anonymity it's worth reading this paper before buying any cell phone: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3607247/pdf/srep...

The paper shows that 95% of cell phone subscribers are personally identifiable from VERY little spatio-temporal information.

Another issue is that an upstream vendor could easily provide the government with the phone IMEIs and SIM IMSIs that they supply to BurnerPhone, without disclosing this to BurnerPhone. This would create a pool of phones that are self-identified as high-value surveillance targets.

If I was in charge of identifying miscreants for a nasty regime, I'd also watch for SIM card changes (an IMEI whose IMSI changes on a regular basis), and I'd especially look for cliques of handsets that showed the same SIM-changing behavior. As such, I can't help but wonder if swapping SIM cards might generate unwanted attention.

at-fates-hands2• 13 years ago

"Methods The dataset. This work was performed using an anonymized mobile phone dataset that contains call information for ,1.5 M users of a mobile phone operator. The data collection took place from April 2006 to June 2007 in a western country. Each time a user interacts with the mobile phone operator network by initiating or receiving a call or a text message, the location of the connecting antenna is recorded [Fig. 1A]. The dataset’s intrinsic spatial resolution is thus the maximal half-distance between antennas. The dataset’s intrinsic temporal resolution is one hour [Fig. 1B]."

This seems kind of sketchy to me considering how CDMA networks currently work:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_division_multiple_access#S...

"These systems were designed using spread spectrum because of its security and resistance to jamming. Asynchronous CDMA has some level of privacy built in because the signal is spread using a pseudo-random code; this code makes the spread spectrum signals appear random or have noise-like properties. A receiver cannot demodulate this transmission without knowledge of the pseudo-random sequence used to encode the data. CDMA is also resistant to jamming. A jamming signal only has a finite amount of power available to jam the signal. The jammer can either spread its energy over the entire bandwidth of the signal or jam only part of the entire signal."

rscale2• 13 years ago

It's likely my own ignorance, but I don't understand the concern you're raising. What's the relationship between frequency-hopping spread spectrum technology and communication/antenna records?

greenlakejake• 13 years ago

The spatio-temporal tracking only works if the battery is in the phone all the time. Take the battery out unless you're making a call or checking voicemail.

ck2• 13 years ago

Except the NSA already gets all visa/mastercard transactions directly from their network.

Destroying the transaction on the vendor side is useless.

noonespecial• 13 years ago

These types of services might just turn out to be the "killer app" that pushes bitcoin out of collector space and into currency use.

People will already be committed to going out of their way to obtain extra privacy. Figuring out how to use bitcoin for the transaction will seem like little additional effort.

yoster3• 13 years ago

What a ripoff. I can get a cheap throwaway phone with unlimited minutes/text for less than $50. I also can buy it with cash at any mom and pop cellular phone shop. I don't need I.D. and I can use any fucking name I want. This phone needs a fucking credit card and an address to deliver. Might as well put up a fucking sign saying dumbest criminal in the world! Leaving a paper trail all over the damn place.

jfmercer• 13 years ago

+1 for Bitcoin

hgfischer• 13 years ago

What's going on in USA? Why does you care so much about privacy?

You look like crazy paranoid to me, as if you all are trying to hide something from a criminal or a law enforcement.

I bet there are lots of North Americans complaining of this PRISM an Verizon thing, but at the same time is using Foursquare and every cool internet location-based mobile app you also created.

There is a dictate in my country that says (in other words) that "If you are innocent then you have nothing to fear."

This BurnerPhone service would be used only for criminals in my country. I see no use for innocent people. This is too much even for people that have something non-criminal action to hide, like cheating your spouse.

If you have fear of your government watching you, then it's better to move to another country or live like a monkey in the forest. Burn your social security card and go live as if you didn't exist for your government.

pyvek• 13 years ago

Ah, the old `if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear` fallacy. I'll leave you with this - http://falkvinge.net/2012/07/19/debunking-the-dangerous-noth...;

forgotAgain• 13 years ago

Go to Walmart and get a $35 phone for cash. Includes a 30 day service plan card with with 1000 minutes, 1000 text and MMS messages, 30 MB data

xmpir• 13 years ago

Nice timing concerning PRISM

youngerdryas• 13 years ago

How easy is it to set on fire, I love the smell of burning electronics.

chc• 13 years ago

The old adage goes, "Don't mine for gold — sell pickaxes to the miners."

I guess the modern adaptation is, "Don't deal drugs — sell phones to the drug dealers."

aetch• 13 years ago

Isn't this service just taking advantage of the situation at hand? This is like offering a 'premium' burner phone, but burner phones aren't supposed to come with nice unlimited plans and etc.

You could get a Tracfone with some starter minutes for $10 and a 50 minute card for $10 with cash. The 50 minutes actually becomes 100 minutes due to Tracfone's 2x minutes promo. http://www.tracfone.com/phones.jsp Yes, this isn't 'unlimited' usage, but the whole point of a burner phone is to use it for one time communication, NOT for normal, regular comms over a 30 day period. You're just asking to be tracked if you did that anyway.

Seems like you would just be paying for a burner phone in a pretty box and pretty service when you could go out and buy one yourself.

Also, the burnerphone.us whois indicates that it was registered less than a month ago in May 2013.

rmason• 13 years ago

If this company were not in the USA I might have confidence in their product being truly anonymous. All they've done is serve as a concentrating function for the NSA. You're far better off buying a phone for cash from a different 7-11 each month.

Perhaps this might be a business opportunity for the North Koreans?

staccatomeasure• 13 years ago

Hasn't anyone here ever watched The Wire?

zhemao2• 13 years ago

Is it really possible to completely anonymize an online purchase? Like others have said, the sheer act of buying something online which must be shipped somewhere is going to leave some trace. Unless both money and phone are transferred via a special courier (preferably in one those suitcases that you handcuff to yourself), a dedicated surveillance effort would be able to discover the customer's identity eventually. I'm sure you guys are well-intentioned, but, honestly, if I was paranoid enough to need one of these, I sure as heck wouldn't be comfortable buying it online. I'd probably just buy a cheap pre-paid cellphone from a corner store using cash.

confluence• 13 years ago

Whenever I see something like this come up, my brain automatically screams: Honeypot!

Services such as these attract the paranoid and the criminal in large enough amounts that they make great ways to catch criminals without having to do any leg work whatsoever.

Sell burners, track all of them via GPS/monitor all calls/use microphone to record real life conversations at random times then use said data to bring people down.

The same could be said for bitcoin exchangers, former liberty reserve exchangers, seed boxes, private VPNs and a host of other "secure" services. I'm not positively stating that any of these kinds of services are actually honeypots, but it probably should be something that one considers before using them for more nefarious purposes.

Makes you wonder what you can really trust. Probably nothing.

Honeypots all round! No wait, it's a trap!

Burner Phone

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