3D Printer for less than $400

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/pirate3d/the-buccaneer-the-3d-printer-that-everyone-can-use

by yink • 13 years ago

156 76 13 years ago

michael_h• 13 years ago

This sounds a lot like the solidoodle, minus $125,(http://store.solidoodle.com/index.php?route=product/product&...). Smaller build dimensions though.

grannyg00se2• 13 years ago

Thanks for that link. They have a better description of the output resolution. By the sounds of things, these are going to provide pretty good output. I'm still not sure I need one, but if I had one beside me right now, I'd be using it.

masonhensley3• 13 years ago

From what I understand, margins are pretty good right now for ~$1k+ printers. This however looks looks too polished for the price they are trying to deliver. Reliable wifi connectivity, air filtration, fancy box, mobile apps, cloud software, scale to weigh amount of filament in the hopper... hmmmm.

Existing sub $400 printers[see below] havent shipped in mass quantities yet (well, besides the printrbot jr). Whoever gets it right first will become the market leader for entry level printers.

If these guys ship all their preorders I'll buy one from them. Until then, based on the research i've done, im planning on buying a printrbot jr to build the parts for deltabot like this: http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:34146

Also, it is a little disingenuous for them to compare it to the makerbot replitor which has ~4x the build volume[1].

================================

Makibox: $200-400 + shipping from asia (has only shipped a few beta units)

http://makibox.com/products

Printrbot simple: $299 + s/h

http://printrbot.com/shop/printrbot-simple-beta/

Printrbot Jr: $399 + s/h

http://printrbot.com/shop/printrbot-jr/

================================

[1]: Build area (28.515.315.5)/ (151012) = 3.75

*Sorry I keep editing as I read more.

X-Istence• 13 years ago

The scale part of it is rather simple ... you can get sensors for measuring the amount of pressure cheap and easily, just some calibration and you are set.

randallu2• 13 years ago

It's interesting that none of the hobbyist printers I've seen have optical calibration like a servo does -- I've read about overshoot being a problem when doing faster prints, but if the head could measure where it was in XY then it shouldn't be such a problem. Some old Sun optical mice knew where they were on the trackpad (which was super annoying, you couldn't pick up the mouse and move it somewhere else for a long drag), so the technology shouldn't be expensive...

nnnnni• 13 years ago

I'm pretty sure that Maki is well-known in the 3D printing community for being a scammer. I'd stay away from the Makibox...

masonhensley3• 13 years ago

Ya, I shouldn't have included them. Can't edit that post now.

I had an post crowd funding order with them at some point in Q1 2013 and canceled it after not seeing much progress.

nakedrobot2• 13 years ago

"If you want to use your own filament, you may do so without the cartridges"

GOOD! I dismiss other 3d printers immediately if they require some proprietary filament cartridge.

Nice to see the price dropping on 3d printers. :-)

masonhensley3• 13 years ago

It looks like it is just a hopper instead of a proprietary spool[1]. I would imagine you can use any 1.75mm filament in it.

[1] Example of a proprietary spool: http://cubify.com/cube/store_parts.aspx

druiid2• 13 years ago

Oh man, I've never heard of their printers before. The multi-color $2500 version looks really cool. Now if this Kickstarter project could do that for $400 I would be all over it.

muyuu3• 13 years ago

I would also dismiss those with proprietary software or "cloud" software if that's the only way to operate them.

It's a tad more sophisticated but they're trying to tie you in just as much.

I don't oppose if it's optional tho. It's a fair way to monetise. But if it's the only way to realistically operate your printer, then you've basically been duped.

grannyg00se2• 13 years ago

"Best layer resolution: 100microns"

So 0.1mm in z, but what about x and y? Or does the above imply that they are all 0.1mm? Is that for the final product output or is that a nozzle head movement resolution?

bradleysmith4• 13 years ago

From Pirate3D in comments:

"@Usman Glad you asked! What is the minimum printable detail? >> We can get the facial features on printed figurines. Do you have any specific test print in mind?

What is minimal wall thickness? >> We use a 0.4mm nozzle. We pjrint our single shell objects at this thickness (0.4mm)."

So, 0.4mm min. XY resolution.

hwh• 13 years ago

not exactly. That's merely the output nozzle diameter. "Resolution" is a bit ambiguous here, but I think it would be fair to differentiate: Movement resolution is 0.1mm, while "dot size" is 0.4mm. You can perfectly well "draw" a 0.6mm long "line", but its minimum width is 0.4mm and you are restricted in prolonging this width by just a tiny bit.

"Height" is another matter, since some hobbyist printers sometimes intentionally "smear" a bit with the nozzle to smoothen flat layers.

That's the real art of 3D printing: bringing temperature, movement and filament drive into the perfect balance. Having a fine _drive_ resolution is important. But not only the resolution: You can drive stepper motors in various ways, so they will go "hard" or "soft" or even "bounce back" after movement a little bit. I've seen people doing hours, days and even weeks of tests after tests on hobbyist devices.

yoster• 13 years ago

I would order this, but I have already heard about people getting ripped off from kickstarter. I know that most of these people actually deliver what they are supposed to on their end, but one bad apple can cause hesitation when it comes to my hard earned cash.

gte910h• 13 years ago

I don't buy things from kickstarter in the thousands unless it's a proven name in a business. I often buy things in the hundreds, and have yet to be truly stiffed (although delays are a certainty)

druiid2• 13 years ago

Same here. I generally look at the 'ship dates' on Kickstarter as kind of a moving target with pretty much any project I have yet to encounter there. I have yet to actually NOT get what they promised (eventually).

I would also find it hard to accept paying more than a few hundred for a Kickstarter project. Anything more seems like asking for trouble.

elmuchoprez2• 13 years ago

There are two kinds of "ripped off" when it comes to Kickstarter:

1.) They collect the money to do the project, attempt to do the project, and then fail for one of a hundred reasons and don't deliver a product.

2.) They collect the money to do the project, never actually try to do the project, and never deliver a product.

The first example is the nature of Kickstarter and embodies the risk that you take on if you choose to fund a project. Often times people feel like this is the same as being ripped off, but it's not.

The second example is just getting ripped off.

iandanforth• 13 years ago

Does the market need a cheaper printer, or a better one?

I've used 6 types of 3D printers. (Extrusion type, ABS or PLA) 3 from the 'consumer' grade and 3 from the 'pro' grade. Each of the consumer grade printers was an exercise in frustration.

All the printers had ugly, clunky software, but the pro printers would almost always make the thing I wanted.

The consumer printers I've tried take 3 or 4 failures to get 'set up' then a few more tries to find the bugs most of the way through a build, and eventually you might get one nice print. (After 4-6 hours)

The difficulty of getting a good print scales dramatically with the initial footprint, and not as much with height.

I have no intention of actually buying a printer until I've seen one work that I can afford. I can't manage the cost of most pro machines, but I can't accept the headache of 'consumer' printers today.

I'm glad 3D printing is taking off, but I think we've reached an inflection point where we need to go from possible to easy.

nickpinkston• 13 years ago

Yea, I think the major players know this, and it's a race to make the best machine for both consumer and commercial-grade.

For machine price, it's a race to the bottom. These are actually easier to manufacture than ink jets, so I can easily see $100 machines.

Hardware -> $0 as software is the real differentiator for simple 3DP. Then, on the top-end, there's Objet with ~$300K for a multi-material machine.

brk• 13 years ago

Not only that. General stories have led me to be HIGHLY skeptical of any Kickstarter projects that make extreme claims. The more far-reaching the claim, the lower the chances I would even consider investing. This one meets my personal criteria for "I'd get a better return just burning the money, at least then I'd get some heat."

devindotcom• 13 years ago

Yeah, I think you're partially right, here - but I think we're going to see a spread of price points, just as we have with, say, cameras. $500 for a small, decent printer. $1000 for a jumbo or deluxe model. $2000 for one that does this and that and the other thing, and then you move on to pro models. But it's good to have iterative hardware like this because it puts pressure on the manufacturers to keep on improving.

mmanfrin• 13 years ago

    Does the market need a cheaper printer, or a better one?

These are not mutually exclusive; and I'd go so far as to argue that they are necessarily linked. You will not get better printers (within reasonable price reach) without the market growing to increase scales of production, and you won't get that without bringing in more consumers -- which is precisely what the race for cheaper printers does.

This is not the better printer you are looking for, but it is helping to bring about that possibility.

And, minor nitpick:

    All the printers had ugly, clunky software

A huge section of this kickstarter is devoted to showing off their user-friendly software.

m_eiman• 13 years ago

Would you mind sharing which printers you've used? I'm looking at alternatives, but so far it looks like I'll have to wait at least one more generation before they get to the "just click print and wait" stage…

erva• 13 years ago

You are assuming that "the market" is one homogeneous mass, which it is not.

>Does the market need a cheaper printer, or a better one?

Yes. Some are in the market for a cheaper printer as demonstrated by the popularity of this kickstarter. Some are in the market for a better one. There is plenty of room for both.

pcrh• 13 years ago

This is obviously the earliest phase in consumer adoption of 3D printers.

It kind of reminds me of the Sinclair ZX Spectrum, i.e. don't expect too much (!).

tekacs• 13 years ago

How about a cheaper pro printer? :P

scottrblock• 13 years ago

Does the market need a cheaper printer, or a better one?

Isn't that the point of crowd funding? Commenters on Hacker News don't decide what the market needs, but rather the market itself does.

piyush_soni• 13 years ago

Well, I for one as a casual 3D printer enthusiast, would really prefer a cheap one which works with ease. It doesn't even need to be accurate to .5 millimeters, but I'll still like to buy it as long as it works for my big hobby projects, and helps me to understand and explain 3D Concepts better.

sciguy77• 13 years ago

I have to agree. At this very moment I'm printing on a consumer grade Afinia, and its an absolute nightmare. I'm just printing a 4" by 2" enclosure, and all the corners are curling in and the whole thing's a mess. And this is my 6th try. You have to wonder what the testing is like at these little companies, "well, it sorta works. Let's ship 'em."

Though, $250 was just too good to be true, so I went against instinct and bought one anyway. :D

lifeguard• 13 years ago

3D PLA printers are non-trivial to build, but very do-able at a hackerspace.

http://reprap.org/wiki/Prusa_Mendel_%28iteration_2%29

http://sourceforge.net/projects/stl4su/files/

http://www.openscad.org/

randallu2• 13 years ago

Printrbot Simple is $299. http://printrbot.com/shop/printrbot-simple-beta/

My son wants to get a 3d printer for his birthday (and he wants to print a lot of airplanes with it) and I think it'd be a fun project to do together; to learn about computer controlled robots and programming with OpenSCAD. I've been reading the Printrbot forums and there's a bunch of work to do to get a good print, which is fun, but probably won't get the best prints. I'm not sure if I want a "consumer" or "hobbyist" printer given that it's going to be for education and fun...

EDIT: Though having read the page, this looks totally awesome, and if I could buy one right now then I probably would (instead of the printrbot).

bradleysmith4• 13 years ago

Seems as though it may require you to upload all G-code or .STL's to Pirate3D's server for printing. Question addressing the issue was just asked in the comments section.

IP questions as well as hardware behavior with spotty internet connection both jump up as potential issues in my mind. I would imagine this is for a standardized file preparation & troubleshooting service.

I wouldn't be interested in purchasing a 3D printer that I cannot directly feed G-code or STL's to without an internet connection or someone else's server getting involved.

[EDIT] I stand corrected, there is a 'backup' mode for printing without involving their servers or network connection.

alexcroox• 13 years ago

Agreed, as an "over target" development (now they've reached funding), I'd like to see a local network addon. I'm sure after months of IP takedown notices we will all regret the middleman servers decision.

rosser• 13 years ago

From the last FAQ at the bottom of the page:

Can I print without using the Pirate Cloud? I would like to make prints offline...

Yes you may. We have a backup WiFi printing mode similar to Octoprint which can be used in the event that zombies attack and all servers are destroyed.

That sounds to me like it can indeed be used offline.

bradleysmith4• 13 years ago

It indeed can be, thanks.

Having to use a backup mode to print something without sending the file to the printer mfg. seems like needing to run a car in a backup mode to drive it without sending your location to the mfg.

I understand a few reasons for wanting to do this, but I don't think it likely to benefit the user.

elmuchoprez2• 13 years ago

When it comes to consumer-grade 3D printing, it seems like all the focus on developing a cheap machine and none of the focus is on figuring out something that people actually want to print.

So you can print a spoon and a bowl... great. But I actually already have one of those. If I ever have a need to print an endless supply of 1-inch square cubes, I guess 3D printing is just the ticket.

I'm not saying they need to be able to print out a Ferrari before I'm interested, but they need to be able to print something that is at least mildly useful or interesting.

jfoutz4• 13 years ago

FWIW, don't eat from 3d printed stuff. The extrusion process creates this wonderful internal maze for bacteria to thrive in.

A single use shot glass is probably ok. And, the ceramic prints you can get now are food grade. But any home made abs or pla will inevitably get you sick, because it can't be cleaned.

kawsper• 13 years ago

What about the jewelry and accessories from http://www.shapeways.com/ ?

A necklace or ring that you have close to your body?

And are the metal ones also affected?

venomsnake• 13 years ago

Throw it in a microwave. That is the way i sanitize my bamboo cutting boards when there are tiny traces of meat inside after tenderizing. If that bacteria have water molecules in them they will be dead. And if they don't - you may be sick but you will get nobel prize in biology anyway.

nwh2• 13 years ago

Shapeways.com is probably the exception, their glazed 3D models are specifically designed to be eaten out of.

busyant2• 13 years ago

why can't you wash the items with soap?

hugs• 13 years ago

My solution to the "what to print" problem is construction toys. (The current crop of consumer-grade printers are already good enough for this.) I'm creating an entire toy system ala Lego Technic that's meant to be printable. I call it "bitbeam". I'm spending this Summer doing customer development to figure out which kits to design.

dspillett• 13 years ago

Once cheap 3D printer are capable of producing reasonable quality at decent resolution, I see table-top gamers being a key demographic (and despite the competition from online gaming there is still a lot of that going on). Not only will it eventually be cheaper than the over-priced models from some outlets, they'll be able to create truly customised armies. It'll annoy the hell out of Games Workshop and their ilk.

evo_9• 13 years ago

Man I just think naming this thing 'pirate' anything is a bad opening move. Or is this by the PirateBay guys? Then I guess it sorta makes sense.

mrbill2• 13 years ago

I've found that the more over-funded a Kickstarter project is, the higher the probability that delivery of perks and products will be delayed or have problems.

In my experience over the past two years, I've seen a number of projects that I funded where the project creators got bogged down after deciding to add features not originally specified at the time of funding, or continually "tweak" features that then result in delay after delay.

Looking through my backing history, some examples: - Honey Badger BBQ sauce: first run had bacterial problems. Had to send out new batch months later.

- Electricity | The Life Story of NIKOLA TESLA: "Oh, that perk you chose, is out of production, if you want something equivalent to it you'll have to send even more money". Nope.

- L8 SmartLight The SoundLess Speaker: "Ooops, we forgot about CE/FCC certification..."

- NeuroDreamer sleep mask: "Oops, battery problem." Funded July '12, finally shipping June '13?

- Ouya: ETA was March '13, now it's 3 months later and I finally have a tracking number.. we'll see.

- HexBright - funded July '11, delivered Feb. '13.

- IronBuds earbuds: Funded Aug. '11, sent "freebie" 3-piece earbuds Sep. '12, still haven't sent the 6-piece IronBuds originally advertised as rewards.

The projects that I've seen with the quickest "fulfillment" and so forth? Custom sets of playing cards.

bulltale• 13 years ago

This is of course part of the risk associated with Kickstarter, projects may fail or be delayed. As you seem to be an avid backer, do you feel satisfied with the general delivery of projects you backed?

mrbill2• 13 years ago

Out of 56 projects backed over the past two years, so far, yes. Nobody has outright "taken the money and run" (yet), and even on the long-delayed projects, semi-regular updates kept people satisfied.

My biggest complaint is the lack of a better way to browse projects. There's no way to say "Show me all the projects in the Technology category that have not yet completed funding or are not over yet". I have to open up two tabs, one for Technology Staff Picks, and one for More in Technology, and browse through both of those to see what's currently active.

kunai• 13 years ago

The first thing that came into my head as soon as I saw it was:

  power
  mac
  g4
  cube

I think it needs a little more originality in the design department.

nwh2• 13 years ago

I'd forgotten that this was a kickstarter page for a second, and just saw a G4 Cube (there's a real one sitting on my desk too).

jwatte• 13 years ago

If price was the only concern, printrbot simple and junior would fly off the shelves. 3d printing seems like it will be important in how some things are made in the future, but anyone getting in now should do it out of interest, not utility.

smoorman1024• 13 years ago

Don't they only need to make one really good printer that can print other printers? That should bring margins down.

Seriously though, as someone very interested in 3D printing this is awfully tempting to back. The best option for me though seems still to be to use a service that will allow you to send your model to a third party that will print it on a professional 3D printer and send it back to you. Internet + professional grade printing + next day delivery = just about as good.

muyuu3• 13 years ago

Most decent printers already do this, except for material constraints. You cannot print the electro-mechanic parts, and things like rods and belts can be printed but have sub-par performance that will lead to lesser precision (inadequate rigidity or flexibility).

But yeah, a fair share of my 3d printer was printed by its same model. And this indeed is why good 3d printers like the Prusas, Mendels, etc are getting cheaper (this and cheaper filament prices). These are printers that provide good precision and use parts that are mostly cheap to produce or directly printable by a similar printer.

marcamillion• 13 years ago

Why does this sound almost too good to be true?

scott_meade• 13 years ago

It's clear Kickstarter has failed in trying to convince people that "Kickstarter is not a store".

* "I would order this..." * "I wouldn't be interested in purchasing..." * "I often buy things [from Kickstarter] in the hundreds..." * "I have no intention of actually buying a printer..."

muyuu3• 13 years ago

Well, Kickstarter is hosting mostly pre-order businesses.

This project for instance is just being advertised as a cheap alternative to things that already exist (claiming they don't would be a big stretch of the implementation details).

Kickstarter would lose most of its business by not allowing these kind of projects. People are more likely to bid in stuff they can easily figure out, rather than completely novel and seemingly far-fetched ideas.

heywoods• 13 years ago

Their team sounds like they are just taking too much on at one time and something is going to give in the way of quality or missing deadlines. Reliable wifi connectivity, air filtration, product design, mobile apps, cloud software... The list goes on.

With 3d printing being such a community focused arena, I think a focus on building a platform where the community could hook into and develop on is the way to go.

Haven't we learned anything from companies like Zynga? The user/community will always be able to produce content and add value faster and cheaper than an in-house team can.

Focus on the hardware, a robust platform to build onto, and some example software (maybe an iOS app + PC app). Empower the community.

If you are going to go the Amazon route and win on margin you need to look at the overhead costs you are going to incur in the form of technical debt supporting all of these services. Offload the cost to the community.

YZF• 13 years ago

Slightly off topic but I built my own CNC 3 axis milling machine (X, Y and Z) some years ago which is mostly collecting dust :-) It's pretty high precision, solid, screw/stepper drives.

If I want to convert it into a 3d printer what would be my best/cheapest route? I.e. getting a printing head and software setup to drive it all?

MBCook• 13 years ago

I believe you'll be limited in feed rate (due to the weight of the axis), but that's basically it. GCODE is used in 3D printers as well. You basically have a 1/2 built reprap.

I think your plan is all you'd need to do.

if_by_whisky2• 13 years ago

Out should ask this question in the 3d printer tips and tricks Google group.

protomyth• 13 years ago

I still wonder if 3D printing is going to be a one in every home thing or something more akin to copiers (copy centers, businesses, and some individuals)? I get the feeling the current direction to go would be more Xerox than Apple.

Tloewald2• 13 years ago

I think it will be like printers -- a bit of both. Not everyone has or needs a printer, and almost no-one owns an automatic book print/collate/binding machine.

A good, small, cheap 3d printer may become just about compulsory for anyone who, say, does home repairs, does any kind of professional design work, does arts and crafts, and so forth.

ancarda2• 13 years ago

I stopped watching when I realised this printer is "cloud based" and "connects wirelessly to their servers".

You know what? Call me when it can connect wirelessly to my computer, just as my 2D printer does right now.

foxylad• 13 years ago

It can - see the FAQ right at the bottom.

"We have a backup WiFi printing mode similar to Octoprint..."

ancarda2• 13 years ago

"backup mode"? That really seems to imply the main way to print is to send everything through your servers.

sdfjkl• 13 years ago

"Add $100 to ship outside the US." Ouch. That's $150 for international shipping total, plus import tax :(

3D Printer for less than $400

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