Weak security in our daily lives

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by MikeCapone • 13 years ago

63 23 13 years ago

kayoone• 13 years ago

Interesting. I am a car nut but have never heard of this keypad thing under the door handle of cars, so i went to google it and found it to be mostly (only) present on US models. I am from europe and have never seen it here, but maybe it never came to my attention.

Even with modern systems i think that there are alot of security issues. Keyless Entry Systems for example in theory allow you to drive off in a car without having the key present (atleast thats true for many VW models). You can basically open, start and drive off if the owner is nearby. Does anyone know how complex is it to crack those wireless key things ?

mwill• 13 years ago

Similarly, in Australia, I've only seen it once, and it was on a (from what I was told) special edition F-150 won in a contest in the US, that was converted to right hand drive.

Seems to be a security vulnerability all by itself, to me. I'm not sure I see the appeal.

delinka3• 13 years ago

"I'm not sure I see the appeal."

'Convenience.' That is all. US'ians are notoriously lazy and require convenience everywhere. Convenience overrides security and often convenience overrides safety.

It's surprising how many devices and service businesses have been created to allow people to continue to be lazy under the guise of "increasing productivity" - 'You just keep sitting on your backside at your desk and we'll run your errands!'

rdl• 13 years ago

It's a convenient way to loan a car to someone; just lock a key inside and give him the code. I did this in the middle east often, but the car itself was either in a place where it was guarded by someone with an AK or M4, or was in a country where they'd cut your hands off for theft (and was a Lincoln LS parked next to a bunch of Cayennes and Lambos), so I considered it a fair security trade.

derekp7• 13 years ago

I had it on my Mercury Cougar back in the 90's. The main use for it was so I could lock my keys in the car if I didn't want to bother with taking them with me (such as at the beach -- hard to swim with your keys in your pocket).

riffic• 13 years ago

From what I've observed, they're only found on early to mid 90s Fords(+Lincoln/Mercury).

This is what they look like: http://www.ford-taurus.org/taurusinfo/G3/G3Keypad.jpg

ilikepi• 13 years ago

It's actually still available on 9 current models. Ford calls it SecuriCode. They keypad layout is the same, though perhaps the implementation has been hardened. Realistically, it probably hasn't.

edit: wording

Pitarou• 13 years ago

Doesn't the car lock you out after too many failed attempts?

If they don't, these keyless entry pads have just set back car security by about about 15 years.

ktosiek• 13 years ago

Sounds like it doesn't only let you try again, it actually only checks if last [password length] numbers match the password (that's why he can compress it into one long number)

tempestn• 13 years ago

Right, even removing that flaw would make it closer to two hours than 20 minutes (although half that to get in on average). Significantly less if you leave finger smudges on the keys though.

That said, agreed with the above: anywhere someone fiddling with the lock for 20 minutes would go unnoticed, a brick would go unnoticed too. I highly doubt a car has even been stolen through hacking the keypad lock in this manner.

jbri• 13 years ago

If they did, you can bet people would stir up trouble by just wandering through a parking lot locking everyone out of their cars.

The better fix would be a substantial cooldown (maybe a minute's worth) after inputting a failed code, which would be sufficient to ward off a brute-force attacker while still allowing the owner access even if they miskey it a few times.

jtheory2• 13 years ago

The trouble is they're working with a very limited UI.

Lockout after X attempts (as another comment mentioned) is a terrible idea, because that makes it a simple DoS mechanism.

But forcing a delay, for example, is tricky -- how do you notify the user that they're in a delay period? Or when the delay period has ended and they can try again after a mis-key?

There don't even seem to be LEDs to work with.... If they keys light up, that's easier (e.g., flash the key lights for 10 seconds if they enter a wrong code before they can start over).

Mahh• 13 years ago

If you're interested becoming afraid around your cars, some of my security friends at the University of Washington have been busting up cars for research: http://www.autosec.org/faq.html

This paper is particularly in depth and interesting: http://www.autosec.org/pubs/cars-usenixsec2011.pdf

Of course, their exploits are a bit more complex and involve various side channels and hardware vulnerabilities, while the keypad issue can be executed by someone just typing in numbers with their fingers.

greenyoda• 13 years ago

I'd guess that these results vary based on the make, model and year of the car. It doesn't seem likely that all car companies get their keyless entry systems from the same manufacturer.

delinka3• 13 years ago

I think it seems likely there are few manufacturers of these devices. That aside, seems to me a simple firmware update could prevent this long string of numbers from opening a door - as soon as a failed code is entered, require re-entry from the beginning, forcing the would-be attacker to try every combination.

kbatten• 13 years ago

I think master locks are a much more prevalent example of this.

mistercow• 13 years ago

Which type of master lock? This technique surely wouldn't apply to the kind with a dial, since those involve reversing direction. There are other techniques that make those locks very weak, but I don't think this article is relevant to them.

32bitkid• 13 years ago

When I started learning how to pick locks, I was shocked to find out how simple most house and apartment locks are to pick. I went to a fellow picker who had been in the scene way longer than I had. I asked "why don't more criminals use lockpicks or hacks to get bypass security?"

The reply has always stuck with me: if ones objective is to steal something of value, then picking or hacking a lock -- or a desire to be undetected - is outweighed by a necessity for speed."

If you are trying to break into a car to take something out of it -- or take the car itself -- then a glass breaker or even a brick will turn your 20 to 30 minute hack into a 3 second breech. Besides, they will know someone was in there when they realize everything is missing, whether you picked the lock or not. So minimize risk, not detection.

rachelbythebay• 13 years ago

Ah yes, two digit answering machine code phreaking.

    001122334455667788990246813579258369147032949727651
    07182162805263064098753937431738420861950415485960

(No, I didn't remember that... but I bet some people did.)

walls• 13 years ago

It seems this could be automated to be done a lot faster than twenty minutes, even just mechanically.

I'm somewhat curious if it would be possible to push a kind of needle/wire through the buttons and automate key presses via electronic signals instead of a physical push.

vinceguidry• 13 years ago

Here's an unlock trick for Ford Rangers that saved me a bunch of money on locksmiths: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzNb4YKBlRo

The first time I did this it took me ten-fifteen minutes. (now it takes 30 secs) I disagree with the argument that anyone fiddling with a lock for twenty minutes is going to attract attention, I wasn't bothered and I was in a busy urban parking lot with lots of passers-by.

Few seem to know about it, if anyone's used it to get in my truck in the 7 years I've owned it I haven't noticed.

Weak security in our daily lives

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