Flat UI, mirrored

by aviraldg • 13 years ago

180 98 13 years ago

nailer• 13 years ago

From the images we've seen all side by side this seems to be a rip of someone else's work.

Nicking people stuff isn't what Hacker News is about. I've had articles I've sent hours writing and issued DMCA takedown notices, just as the same as if someone stole my code.

To take down a site using your stuff, you use a DMCA takedown notice.

- That doesn't mean you're abusing the DMCA

- That doesn't mean that the party that nicked your stuff is in the right.

UPDATE: to those discussing individual works, the issue is that the icons are not individually similar but rather that the whole set copies design elements from the other.

If FlatUI has picked more sources to be inspired from, they'd be in a better position.

c0mpute• 13 years ago

>> From the images we've seen all side by side this seems to be a rip of someone else's work.

I really doubt that is the sentiment here on HN (at least).

Check: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5342360 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5331766

IMO, what Layervault did was wrong in issuing a DMCA for what "they" perceive as 3 images that look similar.

Retric2• 13 years ago

Your assuming someone nicked your stuff. With millions of sites out there are a lot of layouts, icons, and whatnot that look similar that are not in fact copy's. Worse designers are rarely the type of people that think of the (millions) ^ 2 possibilities.

Honestly, unless your talking about a large file with a lot of entropy your probably in the wrong sending a DMCA take-down request.

variousbagels• 13 years ago

>Your assuming someone nicked your stuff

you're

>Honestly, unless your talking about a large file with a lot of entropy your probably

you're, you're

etchalon4• 13 years ago

"Worse designers are rarely the type of people that think of the (millions) ^ 2 possibilities."

Yes. Clearly designers are incapable of original thinking.

Generalizations are fun!

ceejayoz5• 13 years ago

> From the images we've seen all side by side this seems to be a rip of someone else's work.

From the images I've seen side by side, it's very clearly not.

peejaybee2• 13 years ago

sigh Not this again.

From the images we've seen side by side, it is not a copy of someone else's work. The artwork is not identical, and is not similar enough that you have to say "they just took a copy of the artwork and altered it a little bit." That's the standard that needs to be met for the DMCA -- not "he made icons that are similar to mine," but "he downloaded my icons and used them as his own."

C1D• 13 years ago

>From the images we've seen all side by side this seems to be a rip of someone else's work. C'om on man, We've all seen the images side by side and they are definitely not ripped off. Unless you've got a eye sight problem you should be able to see the differences. If I drew a bracelet with round beads and you drew a bracelet with round beads does that mean I copied it from you? Of course not, If you look at the images you can see they're defiantly not ripped.

wwwtyro• 13 years ago

> From the images we've seen all side by side this seems to be a rip of someone else's work.

Well, no. It seems to be very much not that.

cooldeal• 13 years ago

>I've had articles I've sent hours writing and issued DMCA takedown notices

Just because something took you hours by itself doesn't mean that it's protected under copyright law.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweat_of_the_brow

Of course, if someone copy pasted your writing, you're entitled to protection. However, that is certainly not the case here. This is just about similar icons(some of which actually resemble other works) and colors.

djsipe• 13 years ago

The current trend in web design is these ever-simpler icon designs. I can imagine there's only so many ways you can represent common icons using simple geometric shapes and (the infamous) rounded corners. LayerVault may feel they have a case, but I'm sure there's 5 other icon sets out there that could claim LayerVault is infringing on them.

pixl972• 13 years ago

The simpler and less colorful we make icons, the more we'll relalize we'd made the same icons 25 years ago with windows 3.1. LV may feel like they have a case, but only because they've put shudders on and are only looking at their own work and not the entire industry they are built upon.

robinjfisher• 13 years ago

I'd be interested to know about the distinction between US and UK copyright here.

In the UK, copyright will only vest in something if it is an "original work"[1]. Taking LayerVault's claim, there are only so many ways one can represent a "settings" option and the use of gear symbols is so common as to mean that no copyright attaches simply because it is not original. How much skill and effort was invested in thinking about what symbols to use?

[1] http://www.ipo.gov.uk/types/copy/c-applies/c-original.htm

ceejayoz5• 13 years ago

It's the same here. http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-general.html#protect

"Copyright, a form of intellectual property law, protects original works of authorship..."

A specific representation of gears could be copyrighted. The general concept of gears-as-icon can't be.

lucaspiller• 13 years ago

Perhaps more interesting is the 84 forks (other mirrors). Is GitHub going to remove them all?

akakey• 13 years ago

can I fork DMCA?

stblack• 13 years ago

https://github.com/github/dmca.git

the1• 13 years ago

in the end, designmodo paid layervault for DMCA takedown notice for publicity.

now err body's gon use flat ui. great marketing.

ceejayoz5• 13 years ago

That's quite the accusation. Any evidence?

arb99• 13 years ago

What is the deal with this?

It was posted here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5321603 a few days ago but that link is now dead. is this the original one on github or something?

aviraldg• 13 years ago

The original was on DesignModo's Github account, but was taken down due to an unjustified DMCA takedown request from LayerVault. Github's DMCA policies prevent that from being made available again within 10 days.

This version is hosted on iurevych's (the original creator of Flat UI) Github account.

jasonwatkinspdx• 13 years ago

It's not github policy, it's explicitly part of the law.

fredsted• 13 years ago

https://www.google.com/search?q=flatui%2Blayervault

asdfaoeu2• 13 years ago

Why not just respond to the initial dcma rather than playing a game of cat and mouse. No one is going to use it while it has dubious copyright status anyway.

ceejayoz5• 13 years ago

They did. https://github.com/github/dmca/blob/master/2013-03-06-LayerV...

Mirroring it while Github drags their feet reenabling seems fair enough.

peejaybee2• 13 years ago

That's not fair to Github, IMO; service providers have next to no discretion in DMCA issues.

subsystem• 13 years ago

Github per the DMCA needs to wait 10 days before reenabling it.

"[...] replaces the removed material and ceases disabling access to it not less than 10, nor more than 14, business days following receipt of the counter notice, unless its designated agent first receives notice from the person who submitted the notification under subsection (c)(1)(C) that such person has filed an action seeking a court order to restrain the subscriber from engaging in infringing activity relating to the material on the service provider’s system or network."

corresation• 13 years ago

No one is going to use it while it has dubious copyright status anyway

By that measure everything has a dubious copyright status, as anyone can send out DCMA notices.

holms2• 13 years ago

if I were you, i'd sue them, or would send some request to the right place, for taking invalid actions towards you.

momchenr• 13 years ago

Ha, this is so baller.

_puk2• 13 years ago

When I saw the story first, I half expected someone to come up with a 'whack-a-mole' script.

Every time the original repo disappears, mirror it with a variant of the same name.

Not condoning, and like to get you banned from Github, but this was always going to happen.

RaphiePS• 13 years ago

Looks like the Streisand Effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect)!

ameen5• 13 years ago

This whole episode has underlined a few major differences among developers and (current) designers. Developers are more open, contribute code and discuss about bettering each other.

While Designers seem secretive, ego-filled and seeking pointless exclusivity.

Eg: Developers: HackerNews / Github, etc Designers: DesignerNews / Dribble, Forrst, etc.

Any designer that has been open about his work and process has become a legend - Dieter Rams, Johnathan Ive, etc.

bluekeybox3• 13 years ago

Personally I think this takedown notice is questionable to say the least (it looks to be a case of inspiration rather than blatant copying), but here is my devil's advocate opinion on design:

When you say that designers seek "pointless exclusivity", it's a lot like saying that hackers spend their time doing "pointless tweaking". Exclusivity is the currency of design. When you design something, and ten million people already have crappy variations of the same design, your design has lost all of that currency.

jamesdelaneyie2• 13 years ago

Exclusivity is the currency of the mainstream western world. Graphic Design (currently and in the past) is the vehicle through which this desire for exclusivity is encapsulated and pushed to the masses. The old graphic design title of Commercial Artist rings true here. Your point on originality is lost on me also, doesn't the startup world of all places say that even if people have done an idea, that you can add value in other areas?

ameen5• 13 years ago

It's funny that you actually say that "Exclusivity is the currency of design", while living in a well designed non-inclusive world (Well designed Signs, Roads, Cars, Mobile devices, etc).

Good Design will and always strives to be universal. It's funny that the recent Flat-design trend was triggered by Microsoft's Metro UI, which is inspired by Modern Cities' signage (universal design).

Also, isn't the point of icons to be iconic? How can one seek exclusivity over an icon, the Settings Cog, which is almost universally used.

LayerVault and the people behind it jumped at this for cheap publicity and to assert themselves over a new and upcoming design firm.

Swizec• 13 years ago

> it's a lot like saying that hackers spend their time doing "pointless tweaking"

I'm a hacker and I think most hackers (including myself) often spend too much time pointlessly tweaking things.

Your emacs shortcuts are okay. Promise! Just get to work.

Your linux kernel is fine. Yes all the network drivers are configured well enough. Yes samba shares are working, yes rsyinc is copying stuff around. Just get to work.

Yes, X is perfectly configured and compiz is doing its thing. Yes it is! Just get to work.

I promise your IDE has the perfect amount of widgets in just the right place! Start coding.

And so on :)

mistermumble• 13 years ago

Interesting distinction.

One related example is the sculpture in downtown Portland, Oregon, called Portlandia. The City owns the sculpture, but the artist owns the rights to any images of it, and he does not allow pictures to be taken and reproduced. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portlandia_(statue)

Regarding Jony Ive, I disagree that he has been very open about his work and process. I think he rightly has become a legend, but it has happened without him seeking the spotlight. The spotlight has found him, instead.

jamesdelaneyie2• 13 years ago

The design world is heavily tied to fashion, trends and business, hence your idea of designers as secretive ego-guzzlers. The design world is open enough in certain areas, once you find them, on the surface from far away I understand why you have that image of the design world. Dribble and Forrst are circle-jerking hell holes. Critical discussion on design doesn't happen very well online, because, everyone thinks they're a designer. California University being a recent example. Design has a shit brand online unless you know where to look.

Bloody lol at your Dieter Rams, Jonathan Ive quip. They were famous before people asked them for their design values to big-up in the media.

But you raise a good point, the design world is very different to the developer world and hacker values could very well be valuable if implemented in the design world, just not sure how one would go about such things.

etchalon4• 13 years ago

This is the most ridiculous…

If what you were saying were true, there would be no tutorials on how to use Photoshop, Illustrator, etc. There would be no tutorials on how to create specific effects in the above. There would be no Noun Project. There would be no schools for Graphic Design. There would be no open source icon sets, or free typefaces.

baddox• 13 years ago

That does seem anecdotally true in my experience. For example, I've heard an experienced designer argue that all the patent lawsuits between Apple/Google, Apple/Samsung, etc. are good for the industry and the design discipline.

stevenkovar• 13 years ago

"Any designer" is a bit of an overstatement, but your point about being open is true.

Designers at the caliber you speak of rely on, and can articulate, their (timeless) fundamental principles more than your average designer, who heavily relies on their moment in time where their work is relevant before fading into obscurity.

nvk• 13 years ago

Interesting point of view. Although a bit dramatic I do think the two think differently about their work.

To the point, we actually started a repo for Sketch.app Templates, and the Sketch team is working on making their files non binaries so that we can better merge.

https://github.com/sketch-templates

packetbeats2• 13 years ago

We developers get the credit when someone is using our code. The open source libraries usually require keeping the copyright notice at least in the source file. Anyone looking at the code will know who wrote it. Putting myself in the shoes of the Layervault people, I can understand that it's very hard to accept that someone is presenting as his own work something that it took me years to arrive to via iteration. Remember also the rage of Steve Jobs when he called Android a rip-off and of Dustin Curtis when people started copying the Svbtle designs. In all cases, I think the copyright law is not on their side, and perhaps not even any ethic law, but I can understand why they are pissed.

resu_nimda• 13 years ago

Yeah, except (almost) nobody looks at the code. In both cases (designer and developer), most people just see the end result.

In other words, I don't think Layervault would feel any different if there was a comment in the HTML giving them attribution.

etchalon4• 13 years ago

Basically, this.

As a developer, I get to _chose_ how someone uses my code. I can release my code, and attach one of any number of licenses, which give another developer _permission_ to use my code, while laying out restrictions.

If that license is violated, there is a legal recourse for me (and one which is used quite often to enforce things like the GPL, etc.)

Within the development community, this is the accepted protocol for how you "borrow" code from another developer. Violating this protocol is pretty much universally reviled.

But the same universal revulsion doesn't exist for design.

Unless you literally copy and paste someone's actual file.

And I think that's where the disconnect comes from.

In development, the hard work is in the typing, not the idea, really. If I see an animation effect I like, or a feature from a competitor's product, there's still a massive effort I have to undertake to recreate it. The "work" in development is in the work itself, not in the idea.

Obviously there are cases where this isn't true. Novel design patterns, component compositions, etc. exist. But I'm going for an 80/20 discussion here.

In design, the work itself is generally secondary to all the upfront effort work of the "idea". A designer will throw away a dozen, if not more, failed attempts at an idea. Minor things like color, shape, typeface, will be iterated on over and over again, until something takes form that looks "correct". Once they've reached that climax though, the actually complexity of the end product might be minimal.

Recreating all of that designer's choices is beyond simple, so long as you have the software. Even if you don't literally trace their image, all of the "work" has been done for you.

mnicole3• 13 years ago

I think that this is part of a bigger problem; a lot of people find design to be "easy" in that it's subjective - Client A doesn't like your work but Client B does. Can't even get a job in the field? No worries, people flock to 99Designs and Fiverr for cheap, tacky work that validates the crummy designer. Working for someone with no morals? They'll show you some styles they like and tell you they want it "exactly" like that, and if you want a paycheck, you'll do it and maybe you'll learn something about the technique that you can translate into more original works. Some people just honestly don't think they'll ever be caught or that they have a right to be "heavily-inspired" because "you don't own that".

http://youthoughtwewouldntnotice.com/blog3/ has been around for awhile, but now with Pinterest, Dribbble and other resources, it's becoming a lot more common to find the people who are making it difficult for designers to feel like they can truly stand out.

Outside of flat copying/pasting code, it takes a little more to get it to be functional. By nature, lots of developers are working in teams where collaboration/pair programming is promoted to begin with. You work on projects where it is essential to team up to figure out what's going on and what could make it better. In order to ensure the project continues to move forward and work, there needs to be a method to the madness that everyone understands. At the agencies I've worked at, while everyone was a designer, we all had our specialties and we didn't really work together much outside of talking about general branding guidelines/techniques, etc.

In design, all it takes is having the same software to mimic something. So when someone that is actually doing honest-to-goodness original, clever stuff gets jacked by the hacks-at-large, it is easy to get defensive and want to lock it down, particularly when you make your livelihood getting clients that like your style and it is suddenly watered down by clones and you're not getting paid to do what you made popular anymore. On Dribbble, I've seen it go so far down the hole that people have both claimed the original artist was the hack or said "Really reminds me of [hack]'s work.." on someone's copy of a copy.

etchalon4• 13 years ago

Thank you for posting this.

MatthewPhillips• 13 years ago

Yep, designers sell their designs whereas developers sell their expertise. It's this way because that's what the market wants right now. When companies start to hire designers because their good and not because their portfolio contains stuff they've never seen before, designers will become more open.

ameen5• 13 years ago

I think the problem is people confuse design and aesthetics a lot. Design is inherently meant to be universal, and obviously if something is really well designed it does make the product compelling and attractive.

Design cannot be copied, while aesthetics can.

One can copy a single design - say an icon for example, but they cannot copy the original designer's workflow and thought-process in coming up with the final design, it is and always will be unique to each individual. A copy-cat can't come up with an entire icon-set after copying a single icon, whereas the original designer can. And I seriously doubt good designers not getting work due to scummy photocopiers grabbing up jobs.

In regards to 99Designs & Fiverr:

The only requirement of a client on there is that it needs to look good. And it's easy to make something look good, but does that work with their overall product? Does the product even have a design language of its own?

And usually the clients are low-budget shops which even if they wanted to can't afford a decent designer. The same problem exists for developers as well - Do we see top developers crying foul about their code being re-used?

bpatrianakos2• 13 years ago

I think that's too broad of a generalization. I happen to walk the line between designer and developer and I know a lot of my fellow designers are very open about their process and work. Designers often share their tools and techniques openly. See the multitude of CSS frameworks, free fonts, PSDs, etc. I think the notion that they're more secretive less open comes from these cases where a designer does make a stink about "theft", "copying", or whatever the terms they use may be. The thing about that is, well, first design is a very personal thing. Yes, there are rules and best practices, tools, and techniques that apply universally but at the same time good design also carries with it a piece of the designer. We take our designs personally. It's very hard to release an open source piece of design work because you need to make it in such a way that it can be effectively customized or used in such a way that the larger context makes it a unique work unless of course it's a rare case of the designer not caring if everyone in the world uses the design verbatim (see: Wordpress themes).

I know for me, personally, I've put many design projects on GitHub - from the mockups to assets to the code to put a site together - knowing there's a chance someone will use it verbatim but hoping it gets used as a jumping off point or customized to make it someone else's.

With design, you can see when someone has ripped you off very obviously most of the time. You can't own design elements of course but its a very subjective thing that you just know when you see it. Developers and designers also think very differently in some areas. With developers everything is logical and black and white. With designers, much of their work is vague, fluid, and incredibly subjective. Emotion plays a role in the success of design often times whereas a developer's code will be just as useful and functional no matter how anyone feels about it. As a developer, when I open source something, I know that I can't own the concept of a loop or a database query or whatever. What makes my code unique is the way in which I solve my problem and how it solves a problem that other code has not solved. I'd be happy if someone forked my code, made it better, and started a new project from it that became popular. However I'd be upset if someone took my design, added on to it, and passed it off as their own. The difference? On the surface there shouldn't be one. But beyond the surface it's all about the piece of yourself you put into design work.

Hopefully this makes sense and doesn't just sound like rambling. I'm sure I may need to clarify a few things I said so please ask if I said something vague.

ameen5• 13 years ago

I'm a designer/developer too, and this has been a long-time observation of mine. While there is openness in design (and a whole sub-culture which is dedicated to making life easier), there isn't much among Designers (afaik).

I've been inspired by many and have inspired a few designs as well, but rather than being bitter about it, I follow the thought process of my primal developer instinct - Did they make it better or worse? If they did make it better, what did they do differently, What can I learn from them, etc.

While I do get pissed off about blatant copying, I can't condone what LayerVault did in this instance - Block DesignModo's original designs which were allegedly[1] inspired by LayerVaults icons.

[1] - Various other entities (The Noun Project, Facebook, etc) have had similar icons (Settings Cog, Man Speech bubble, Newsfeed icon) a lot earlier than LV.

WayneDB• 13 years ago

How has Jonathan Ive been open about his work?

grinich• 13 years ago

famous != open

ratherbefuddled3• 13 years ago

The distinction I think I've seen is that designers are often more inclined to assert ownership of an abstract idea, whereas developers tend to assert ownership of the concrete and often revile the notion of owning ideas.

I say this because (in general), whilst developers would not violate a license or steal code, they would often happily implement the same idea someone else had from scratch without any qualms. You can see this in how the notion of patents are despised in software far more than other industries.

Perhaps for developers, ideas are easy and implementations are hard, whilst for designers the reverse is true.

In any case, copyright is about the concrete. You can't - or at least shouldn't be able to - use the DMCA to prevent people expanding on your ideas or being inspired them. Unless an artifact has been copied, there is no copyright violation.

This seems counter-intuitive to some designers, but at the same time seems obvious to developers.

In this particular case, there is no copying and no copyright violation. That is obvious. There is also as much evidence that FlatUI was inspired by LayerVault's work, as there is that LayerVault was inspired by other work already created.

The DMCA takedown was wrong legally, and strategically, but despite the reaction LayerVault don't seem to realise this. Sadly for them their business will probably suffer for it, and they've probably made FlatUI a lot more popular.

derleth4• 13 years ago

> they would often happily implement the same idea someone else had from scratch without any qualms

There is only one MD5. There is only one preorder traversal of a binary tree. Creativity is essential, but unless you do those kinds of things the same way as everyone else, you're doing them wrong and will get the wrong results.

enra• 13 years ago

I think it's more about that design is personal, identifying (which also brings up emotions easily) and that the problem here is about the rights for those personal things. Since design is actually _more_ open, visible and made for people, inherently there isn't any way to hide or obscure it (like you can do in some level with code or technology). It's about having rights or giving permission. You share the code or design you want to share, but should have a right not to do it as well.

You design something for your loved one, and see it end up as campaign for a multimillion dollar business. You design your product with love, just with the right and personal style and see it to end up as commodity. Those things feel like worst kind of abuse if you didn't expect or want them to happen. There is bit similar kind of outrage when corporations use open source code and don't share it back.

Design and brands are also identifying and they build trust and value, so copying design is bit like stealing your identity, name or face. If someone somehow uses your code without your permission, almost no-one will notice that it's _your code_ running in the backend.

And this is not the same discussion as pirating music or movies, those are products made to consume, and their value doesn't decrease when people use it more. But for example using Bootstrap default design doesn't really bring up trust or anything positive anymore since some many people are using it, so usage decreases the value of a specific design.

As a final note, fashion and design of course runs on getting inspired by other people's work and that's how it should be be. However even something isn't illegal, it doesn't mean it's ethical or nice.

(You may also notice that both Rams and Ive talk about their designs or process post-mortem, so they can choose the parts and the way they want to talk about it.)

alexchamberlain• 13 years ago

Not exactly the right solution to a DMCA takedown notice...

dutchbrit3• 13 years ago

Is this the correct thing to do? Wasn't it taken down for a reason?

mistercow3• 13 years ago

Sort of. It was taken down because LayerVault filed a DMCA notice, but you don't have to prove anything to file a DMCA notice (and yes, this is a broken system).

dutchbrit3• 13 years ago

Well, I agree - I once filed a DMCA notice, but in that situation, the person actually copied some of my icons, instead of being deeply inspired. While I do agree there is a difference, there is a fine line - I do agree however that in this case, that the majority could easily be fixed. Even though it's not exactly a 1 on 1 copy, it's too inspired from the examples I saw, mainly being the design news icon.

webmech• 13 years ago

fork it! they can't stop us all!

pyalot2• 13 years ago

Ah the sweet sweet workings of the streisand effect. This new fork now has more forks and stars than the original ever had.

How's that DMCA thing working out for you LayerVault?

lancefisher• 13 years ago

It's amusing that there are 188 forks now.

I expected a fork, but not from the author. I don't know that this is a good idea since it could cause a termination of his account. I think that is at github's discretion.

I'd never heard of LayerVault before, but based on what I've seen of the "infringing" design which amounts to 3 similar (but different) icons, they are clearly wrong to issue the DMCA. This is what I'll remember about LayerVault. Not all press is good actually.

I'm glad that @iurevych is filing a counter notice, but what is too bad, is that links from press like Smashing Magazine and CSS Tricks are not working. This will hurt FlatUI.

I really hope that LayerVault drops it at this point, but if they pursue a lawsuit, I would like to see it fought.

rogerclark• 13 years ago

divs with border radius

nsxwolf• 13 years ago

So, to see an example, I have to build it and deploy an application? I don't understand this tendency of posting links to a github page that presents no screenshots or examples.

hunvreus• 13 years ago

There is a gh-pages branch, which means it's a Github page: http://iurevych.github.com/Flat-UI/.

pramodxyle• 13 years ago

even original bootstrap goes flat in its new rc..!

muratmutlu• 13 years ago

I love the drop down menu, has anyone come across any tutorials to create something similar?

Flat UI, mirrored

Related Stories