Police concerned with Apple iOS 6 mapping system

http://www.vicpolicenews.com.au/more-news/11081-police-concerned-with-apple-ios-6-mapping-system.html

by bmmayer1 • 14 years ago

361 220 14 years ago

vicpolicenews.com.au

bmmayer1• 14 years ago

*is stranding

kaptain• 14 years ago

Yes, changing the title would help clarify the content of the article. At first I thought the police had an issue with the concept of the iOS 6 mapping feature (e.g. privacy issues). Despite the terseness of the article, the issue engenders mixed feelings of sympathy and bemusement.

shimms• 14 years ago

Unrelated to the content of the post, but humorous that they get the capitalisation of "iOS" correct, but consistently spell iPhone "i-phone".

jws2• 14 years ago

GPS navigation systems have already killed: http://www.npr.org/2011/07/26/137646147/the-gps-a-fatally-mi...

Rangers are frustrated by having defunct roads or paths in GPS navigation systems as roads and having no way to get them removed.

I was traveling in Death Valley recently, and the span of "unpaved road" ran from "better than my driveway" to "I could try, but there is a 50-50 chance this rented jeep[1] isn't coming back."

EOM

[1] If you pass through, spend a day, rent a jeep. Don't do that to your own tires. The rental guy will tell you where to go to see the things you want to see.

afterburner• 14 years ago

I sort of had this problem around the Great Salt Lake; my TomTom app gave me directions using unpaved dirt roads that were actually closed. At least there were closed, with gates, only 10 minutes into the bad route.

jmspring4• 14 years ago

I know the rental guy, he will most likely direct you towards things that he feels are safe for you to reach. In the last two years, he has had people more familiar with the the back country and renting the jeeps for multiple days. It took a little getting used to for him -- there is a risk involved. We spent most of a week in areas where you do not see any people.

In Death Valley, with elevations below sea level, a little bit of rain can cause standing water on roads where people don't expect it. Heck, Inyo County throws up "road closed" signs just based on the amount of rain not based on road conditions. Park rangers, county road crews, etc. in remote areas need to cater to those that really don't think about what they are getting themselves into.

fleitz2• 14 years ago

Might be passing through Death Valley over Christmas, wanted to head out to Racetrack Playa, any recommendations on the closest place to rent a jeep?

Was planning on winging it but figured a recommendation or two might help.

I'm from BC and usually when I'm out in the back country I'll pick up a forest service map, are there similar maps for Death Valley?

jmspring4• 14 years ago

For jeep rental, the best place to rent from is:

http://www.farabeesjeeprentals.com

For maps, the NPS site is your first stop:

http://www.nps.gov/deva/index.htm

The specific back country road map is:

http://www.nps.gov/deva/planyourvisit/upload/Backcountry%20R...

If you want specific details and more information, contact me directly. I can give you more detail, depending on your experience/desires.

jws2• 14 years ago

Talk to Farabee (check first, I think he closes during the hottest part of summer). There is an abandoned mining site along the way to the racetrack that is nice (bring a flashlight, but someone sometimes leaves one in the shack). He'll also tell you where to stop to get AT&T coverage. Strange little spot where for some reason there is cell signal. A nice spot to check in with your family. The moving rocks are mostly down on the far end of the racetrack, don't despair if you start looking on the wrong end. Distance is a bit deceptive, you can easily walk all around the racetrack.

rdl4• 14 years ago

Also, dear god, put a couple cases of bottled water in your car. I do that even when driving around the Bay Area (if nothing else, $0.10/bottle water vs. $1.50/bottle water at the gas station is a win), but it was weird being in SW NV seeing people with absolutely no preparations in their car.

awj2• 14 years ago

Bottled water, a blanket or two, food that stores well, and a first aid kit. None of that takes up a lot of space, and it could easily save your life. Plus just about all of it is handy to have around for non-emergency needs anyways.

genwin2• 14 years ago

Even better, use a multi-gallon reusable water container, if it'll be used repeatedly.

duncan_bayne3• 14 years ago

A few years ago a grass fire broke out near where we live (Upwey). Folks were up in arms because The Gummint hadn't set up nice comfortable shelters for them to drive their SUVs to post-evacuation and be waited upon at the taxpayers expense.

So: it's not just that people don't keep a bottle of water in their car. Many locals who know they're living in a fire risk area don't have enough kit in their cars - or even the right type of cars - to safely evacuate them and their loved ones for a few days should the fire risk become extreme.

We're not talking about fleeing an incoming fire (almost never a good idea), but simply going someplace else for a day as the fire risk is so great. But, apparently, many people choose not to prepare for such a simple operation.

davidw• 14 years ago

> GPS navigation systems have already killed:

I think that's a bit of hyperbole: people relying 100% on a GPS/map/whatever when they should have used their heads a bit more is what got the boy in the article killed. Doesn't look safe? You're not prepared? Turn around! Don't go into places like that without a full tank of gas, plenty of water, some food, and if it's cold out, some sleeping bags/blankets.

001sky5• 14 years ago

Police concerned with Apple iOS 6 mapping system

-- You should never blindly follow consumer-level GPS. Full stop.

Especially in remote areas/national parks/widerness areas. Hate to say this is "common sense", but really it should be. It really has nothing to do with Apple, the iPhone, or iOS. Its quite the opposite, there are errors on all sorts of digitized maps. Most people are not aware or the vintage of the underlying mapping data (pre-digitization) and the variances of map-set data even amonst variant databases of "real maps".

akent4• 14 years ago

~70 kilometres is quite a "variance".

001sky5• 14 years ago

There are alot of areas where just 5-10-or-50 meters could easily put you off a precipice, though

enneff4• 14 years ago

No "real map" would have this error because of the human element: you wouldn't plot a town where there isn't one, particularly if you were also responsible for plotting the roads of the town.

This is a data processing problem. Someone's algorithm screwed up and they didn't bother to have people sanity check the results.

Anechoic• 14 years ago

you wouldn't plot a town where there isn't one

It happens. About 12-13 years ago, a colleague and I were driving around Ohio to document landuse near a freight railroad line. The maps we had (USGS, AAA maps and local street maps) indicated a small town in one location, but when we drove there, there was nothing, no remnants, no anything. When we got back to the office, we looked into it- turns out the town had been wiped out by a flood a few years earlier and the decision was made to disincorporate the town instead of rebuild. That town appeared on maps that were printed after it was abandoned.

Perhaps this doesn't happen anymore with more recent mapping techniques/technology, but it's not unheard of.

lessnonymous• 14 years ago

But you might put an island where there isn't one .. Google has. The difference is that Google appear to have quickly acted to remove the island when it became public knowledge that it didn't exist.

http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/news/6234/%E2%80%98missing%E2%...

ubernostrum• 14 years ago

Consumer GPS is somewhat notorious for giving nonsensical directions. See the Daily Mail's endless stream of "but I was just following the satnav!" stories, for example.

001sky5• 14 years ago

The issue is slightly more subtle/nefarious. See this article, for example.

http://www.heraldandnews.com/breaking/article_ea780435-4e3a-...

bruceboughton2• 14 years ago

There is a human element in using GPS/smartphone maps too though. You can scroll to the end of the route and see if it looks sensible, rather than just blindly following it.

Xylakant• 14 years ago

> you wouldn't plot a town where there isn't one

Seems to happen even with whole islands: http://www.smh.com.au/technology/technology-news/where-did-i...

desas• 14 years ago

I've heard of this happening before. I remember reading something by Bill Bryson, probably from the 90s, where he returned to the US to retrace some of his childhood journeys. After being used to British maps and their fantastic detail he laments the state of US maps as they miss whole towns and so forth.

yycom• 14 years ago

And what about the implied warranty and fitness for purpose?

001sky5• 14 years ago

-- Everytime you open a sat-nav you click off on terms of use, precisely saying there is no such idea you speak of...

jfoster• 14 years ago

You might be right about that, but plenty of people are still going to follow the directions from these devices no matter what. That appears to be the intended purpose of the devices, too. Therefore Apple, Google, Nokia need to be responsive in addressing any issues like this.

rymith3• 14 years ago

I'm curious how this differs from an outdated paper map.

akent4• 14 years ago

The location was shown ~70 km from where it actually is. Even an outdated map would get it closer than that.

rymith3• 14 years ago

Perhaps, I don't know. That's why I'm curious.

wilfra5• 14 years ago

Change title from 'Police' to 'State Police in Victoria, Australia' please. Title is misleading/linkbaity.

jval2• 14 years ago

Sorry mate, but Victoria is not a 'small Australian city'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_(Australia)

enneff4• 14 years ago

Victoria isn't a city at all, it's a state. But it's the Mildura police that issued this warning. Mildura is certainly a small town.

neurotech1• 14 years ago

Australia doesn't have "city police", they are all State (or Territory) Police.

djt3• 14 years ago

Issued by the Victoria State Police, presiding over 227,600 km2

About the same area as England, Wales and Scotland.

Also slightly larger than the "Small American city" of Utah.

wilfra5• 14 years ago

Fair enough, so it can be changed to 'State Police in Victoria, Australia' or similar.

DanBC2• 14 years ago

I read the headline as "Some police somewhere", not as "All police in Australia".

I'm aware of the 80 char limit on subject lines, and I realise that sometimes information is left out.

Your suggestion is 28 characters more than "Police ".

wilfra5• 14 years ago

Notice how TechCrunch (and every other publication that picked up this story) worded it:

http://i.imgur.com/C5how.png

Australian Police is infinitely less misleading and more accurate than simply saying 'police'. I have to assume all of these downvotes I've received are from Australians or other foreigners making some kind of anti-American point. The fact remains - this is a US owned website and a topic about a US company. Saying 'Police' gives the impression it is American police - when it isn't.

jyap• 14 years ago

As a former Victorian now living in the US, I think it's apt to point out that 46 degrees Celsius is 114.8 degrees Fahrenheit and 70 kilometers is 43.495 miles.

jerf• 14 years ago

Unless you really think the police were being precise to within a meter (Google says .001 mile =~ 1.6 meters), it's "about 115F" and "about 40 miles", respectively. (Got a bit unlucky on the miles, I'd also consider "about 45".)

vacri• 14 years ago

You generally shouldn't increase the number of significant digits by more than one anyway, even if you are after a precise measurement.

dhughes2• 14 years ago

I have to admit that occasionally during whiteout snowstorms I glance at my GPS more as moral support that I am indeed on a road.

Telephone poles are also a good guide if I can see them.

scoot• 14 years ago

occasionally during whiteout snowstorms I glance at my GPS more as moral support that I am indeed on a road

In which case you need to be aware that GPS is generally only accurate to within tens of meters (sometimes worse), and your satnav will pin you to to the road it thinks you should be on, even if your computed position disagrees (as you will have noticed if you've ever taken a different route to that which your satnav is recommending).

dhughes2• 14 years ago

I'm aware.

It's far worse than that in my region most roads in my area are wrong, I tried to submit the errors to the two largest mapping companies but no dice.

The errors I mentioned are at least five years old and still have not been corrected yet!

enneff4• 14 years ago

(Disclosure: I work for Google, but not in anything to do with maps. These opinions are my own.)

I've been to this national park before. It's a beautiful place, but not one you want to get stuck in unprepared. The temperature estimates given by the police are accurate. It gets damn hot out there. The roads are gravel at best, and often just packed dirt or sand. You can very easily get bogged, if you don't know what you are doing. I got to a point where the road became unsuitable for my car, and I had to drive backwards for nearly 100 metres to get out as there was nowhere to turn. I would be concerned for inexperienced drivers with two-wheel-drive vehicles.

Map data is serious business, and this particular case is an egregious error.

startupfounder• 14 years ago

Jobs is turning in his grave and would have had none of this. Little details collect like snowflakes and create avalanches if not put in check.

Alaskan0053• 14 years ago

"Jobs is turning in his grave and..."

He was cremated and he wasn't above screwing up.

Alaskan0053• 14 years ago

Every time I turn my Garmin GPS it warns me that maps might not be correct, so it's not just Apple.

That said, Apple should have written a big fat check to a company with much better data. (I still think Apple needed their own mapping and apparently maps improve as more users use them.)

robmcm• 14 years ago

That and they are using Tom Tom data for navigation. There have been 100's of stories about sat navs taking people on wrong turns, but when it's related to an iPhone you'r going to get more hits!

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=sat+nav+wrong+turn+site%3A...

purecaffeine• 14 years ago

Agree, mapping is not something you can fumble your way through as an amateur.

SyneRyder3• 14 years ago

It isn't a case of buying a better dataset, Apple needs to use the good data they already have correctly. See my comment below; in this case Apple is giving co-ordinates for the center of the Shire Of Mildura (a local government region), instead of the co-ordinates for the town of Mildura. Both co-ordinates are in the free GeoNames dataset that Apple already has access to.

lusr• 14 years ago

The thing I really don't understand is this seems like such a simple thing to test! Search for X in our data set vs. competitor data set: flag for review if we are not within 1km radius. Don't release until the number and scope of flags hasn't been reduced to an acceptable margin of error (don't even have to test the full data set, just need a good enough statistician to help you figure out how bad your overall data is based on your sample tested data).

Maxious• 14 years ago

OpenStreetMap has been tested like this http://povesham.wordpress.com/2009/07/15/openstreetmap-and-o... http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~ucfamha/OSM%20data%20analysis%20070808...

Alaskan0053• 14 years ago

"Apple steals Google Maps data then bans them"...news at eleven.

mda2• 14 years ago

2 problems here, first, can you use competitors data for comparison and making your data better? Second, calculating difference is very difficult and size of difference could be overwhelming. But first issue is the main problem.

demallien3• 14 years ago

All of which is true, but it leaves me wondering if Vic Police have informed Apple - seems like a far more effective way to save lives than issuing a statement that will be read by pretty much no-one...

I mean as an absolute first step, they should as a minimum report the problem by using the -in-app error notification system...

mercurial• 14 years ago

From TFA:

> Police have contacted Apple in relation to the issue and hope the matter is rectified promptly to ensure the safety of motorists travelling to Mildura.

smackfu2• 14 years ago

The manager of Apple Maps almost certainly got this clipping on their desk this morning with a memo of FIX THIS NOW. Seems pretty effective to me.

Nursie• 14 years ago

I've been to a lot of similar places in Australia, though I'm not sure about this one.

The thing I don't get is how/why people keep going until they get stuck. Is there not a point where you think 'this doesn't look like the road to Mildura anymore' ?

Places like that national park should only be entered in a 4x4 and you need to be carrying a water supply, spare fuel and various other bits of equipment.

yardie• 14 years ago

I know how having experienced it myself. In my case I was almost stuck in the French Alps using Google Maps on the iPhone. It had taken me off the autoroute onto a national highway that turned into a country road that eventually turned to a dirt road. The rental car's built-in GPS (which I had switched off earlier because it had given me bad directions before) actually came through this time. On the way back I used the directions one of the locals gave me to use the newly opened autoroute instead.

I used to laugh when I heard stories like this in the news. But in my case it's dark, we're all tired, in an unfamiliar location, and I'm busy looking for sign/landmark/anything to get me pointed in the right direction. And, it managed to snow (this was in May). So when you're doubting yourself and not sure what decisions to make guess who doesn't have that problem? The little 4-inch box sitting on your dashboard who is speaking with absolute authority that you need to make a right in 400-meters.

And that is why people get stuck in the places they do sometimes.

BryantD• 14 years ago

Yeah, it's a very unfortunate error.

A couple of years ago, Google Maps placed Sunrise, FL in Sarasota, FL -- a 200 mile error, so somewhat larger than this one. But not as dangerous.

jasonlingx• 14 years ago

Please can we switch back to Google maps now?

ra• 14 years ago

Oh man I wish Apple would just get over themselves and allow it in the app store.

I've started carrying around my Nexus 7 in addition to my iphone just because of maps.

If iOS maps isn't seriously fixed by the time my contract is out, there's no way I'd by another iphone.

lostlogin2• 14 years ago

Is it Apple that not letting it into the App Store? I thought that this was just speculation? The reason maps changed was, as I understood it, not just due to Apple, as google wouldn't give access to 'the good data' - vector based maps.

taligent• 14 years ago

According to TechCrunch, Google was hoping to have it submitted by Christmas.

There is NO evidence that Apple is blocking it from the store.

randomdata3• 14 years ago

Google Maps on my iPhone has tried to send me down roads buried in several feet of snow (no winter maintenance road) before. Switching back to Google Maps doesn't make this sort of problem magically go away.

charliesome• 14 years ago

The difference is that the road is still there, it's just buried beneath snow.

It's a maps app, not a weather reporting app.

rdtsc4• 14 years ago

Would you expect a paper map to clear the road from snow for you?

robomartin• 14 years ago

Interestingly enough, today I was having a conversation about whether or not Maps had made any real improvements. You know, the kind that might compel one to finally upgrade to iOS6 or even consider upgrading to an iPhone 5. I asked a few people and nearly all of them expressed concern about being able to trust Maps. News like this doesn't make one feel better at all.

Frankly, I don't understand Apple's decision in the context of the idea of being customer-focused. In other words, if you, as an organization, make decisions for the benefit of your customers --or, at the very least not to their detriment-- how can you justify pushing out Maps and not keeping Google Maps on there?

OK, I get it. It would have cost more. A lot more. Fine. That's your problem. Pay Google for another five years exactly because you care about your customers. At the same time, put out your own Maps app and --funny enough-- compete on the merits of the app, not the hype.

If in five years you can't turn Maps into an app that people will choose over Google Maps, then, well, why are you in the mapping business in the first place?

iaw• 14 years ago

Agreed. It's especially egregious because this functionality can potentially endanger the lives of customers while opening up liability suits (not a lawyer, just guessing).

Anyone know how much it would've cost to keep google maps?

jopt3• 14 years ago

It's probably not just a dollar figure; the terms have to be favourable concerning user data etc.

ceol3• 14 years ago

The only way for Maps to get better is for people to report errors. If they release it alongside Google's version and no one uses it, no one will report errors, so it would never get better, and so on.

Just two years ago I had Google Maps send me a few miles in the wrong direction and plant me in the middle of an unfinished housing development when I wanted to go to a shopping mall. It was a mistake, I reported it, and it was eventually fixed. It's not as bad as getting stranded in the middle of a national park, but

a) It should be obvious that the middle of a national park isn't where a town is supposed to be, and

b) If it's not obvious because you are a tourist, maybe you shouldn't be blindly trusting your Maps app and only having enough gas to make it to town?

enjo• 14 years ago

This is the worlds most valuable company with billions of dollars in the bank. You spend some of that money to make sure that things work. They aren't a start-up, and they have a very real brand to protect. That's the thing, this debacle was the very first time that devout Apple users en-masse looked at Android and went "Android does maps flat out better".

That's going to have real long-term consequences I'm not sure Apple even understands yet. For instance look at how quickly the tech crowd embraced Google now on the iPhone? The hole in Apple's armor makes it easier for people to accept that other things are also better. These things really can snowball, and when you're protecting a luxury brand that's a really serious issue.

You simply can't screw up what might be the most universally used feature (maps) on the entire phone. It's the one thing, next to maybe the dialer and messaging, that people interact with more than anything else. Screwing that up makes all of your polish, usability, and "coolness" irrelevant. Instead of arrogantly shoving crap out the door and expecting everyone to love it just because, maybe that's the time to invest that money and do the quality control you have to do to make it work. Hire 10,000 people to drive all over the world making sure you got it right. Google does something close to that (those Google maps cars improve the accuracy of their data ten-fold), and if you want to compete you should too.

Now you have to put the genie back in the bottle and hope the damage isn't long-lasting. It's probably going to be even more expensive and I'm not sure you can.

MagnitudeSw2• 14 years ago

I'm shocked apple hasn't made the "pin is at incorrect location" more prominent.

A very popular dining and shopping center in Atlanta shows up erroneously on my quiet side street. I flag down people in cars when I see they're confused and tell them about how to report the errors. Nobody knows it's there. 1.5 months of doing this and it's still not fixed.

In contrast when I reported my address at the wrong end of the street ( over a year ago ) Google fixed it in a week AND sent me a confirmation email. I want my Google maps back on iOS6!

Xymak1y• 14 years ago

Has there been a credible source that the decision to get rid of Google Maps has in fact been made by Apple? I always thought it had been Google's decision, but I never found a source confirming either.

andybak• 14 years ago

Eric Schmidt has publicly said it wasn't Google's decision but that leaves open the question of whether they tried to force onerous conditions on Apple or not.

simonlang• 14 years ago

This reminds me of a recent story where some tourists tried to drive their rental car to an island (through the ocean) because their GPS told them to:

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/travel/travel-news/taking-th...

georgeorwell• 14 years ago

We can all agree that the police are doing a good job by warning people about the problem, right?

duncan_bayne3• 14 years ago

I live in Australia, and while I am not a fan of Apple or their products,I have to say that I'm surprised anyone in their right mind would go bush with just one map. Electronic or paper, maps have errors. Don't bet your life otherwise.

mwill• 14 years ago

Mildura isn't really going bush, depending on where you're coming from. I'd (before this article) be pretty comfortable following phone directions from say Bendigo to Mildura, which should just be a straight run down Calder Hwy. It seems pretty reasonable to use it to find a route between two cities/towns, which I've done in WA a few times with Google Maps.

Though I'll admit I've never used turn by turn for that, rather just got the broad strokes. Is this a problem with turn by turn directions, or is Mildura actually in the wrong place on ios6 maps?

EDIT: Took a look, seems like Mildura is actually marked at the wrong location, which is significantly worse imo.

enneff4• 14 years ago

Indeed.

Here's the road you should be taking: http://goo.gl/maps/QbZ88

And this is the kind of road that Apple's maps send you down: http://goo.gl/maps/CdCjh

duncan_bayne3• 14 years ago

Wow, holy hell. I admit I skimmed TFA; I'd assumed that the folks got lost somewhere in the bush _near_ Mildura. That's just not good.

jmgrimes• 14 years ago

I wonder if the big players can improve the quality of their maps by implementing wiki-style editing systems like OpenStreetMap.

Google seem to have already started down this path with the Map Maker functionality. http://www.google.com.au/mapmaker

aw3c2• 14 years ago

Map Maker is not really wiki-style. At least for me wiki means that you get your data out in a more of less raw form. With Map Maker you add vector data and get pictures in return. A drastic reduction in usability to me. You cannot export your data from Map Maker. You only feed Google with it.

bitsweet• 14 years ago

I love my iPhone, MBP, iPad, and how generally apple has raised the bar on software quality. But the maps app is truly intolerable - it's the most unusable thing apple released since ping, maybe even more so.

jarcoal• 14 years ago

I think it's highly usable, just not useful :)

MetalMASK2• 14 years ago

The map failure is just another example of where apple's design principle cannot be blindly applied to every product. Apple's top-down approach on software design is expected to fail on Maps. Maps put hard requirement on data, bottom data, nothing to do with your leader's vision. Apple's way out of this is not to engage user input to add missing data or correct data errors --OSM tried that for years, the most accurate data still comes from semi-professional survey-er.

Look at other companies that does map, google map started out using Tele Atlas, NavTeq serves yahoo, bing and mapquest. Let's face it, spatial data cost money to collect and even more costly to update/maintain. Nevteq and Tele Atlas are gigantic companies for serving basic spatial data for a reason.

I guess apple didn't do sufficient data QA before saying, "hell yeah we are going with OSM where every big player is going with commercial data."

Without a solid baseline data, any fancy pants software development would just evaporate in air.

I have to say though, the GUI for apple map and functionality has very high usability. Apple just need to adapt a different mindset when dealing with data-dependent applications.

(disclaimer: I am a PhD student in Geography with CS background, did my share of processing spatial data for the last 8 years)

jopt3• 14 years ago

What's the disclaimer for?

If we keep doing disclaimers wrong like this nobody will ever pay them any attention.

jrajav• 14 years ago

I was about to say - seems like more of a claimer to me.

epa• 14 years ago

Credibility and not anti-apple spam

MetalMASK2• 14 years ago

sorry, just saying that I actually work in the field, not just a bystander saying apple is evil. I would be very happy if OSM in the end works(which I believe it will, just need at least a couple of more years); I would also be happy if apple map were able to fix the problem--which, as I pointed out, is the under-emphasized data issue.

maratd• 14 years ago

> I guess apple didn't do sufficient data QA before saying, "hell yeah we are going with OSM where every big player is going with commercial data."

Is Apple using OSM? I thought they were using TomTom?

mtrimpe• 14 years ago

They're using TomTom/TeleAtlas data since TomTom bought TeleAtlas just before the crisis hit.

m_eiman• 14 years ago

They credit OSM, so at least some of their data is from there.

smackfu2• 14 years ago

They credit just about every mapping source there is.

kahawe2• 14 years ago

> I guess apple didn't do sufficient data QA before saying

Do you have this on good authority? (seeing your disclaimer and all) Because the way I understood it, they have all the data from TomTom and that seems to work fine - so it seems the problem is definitely not the data but what they are doing with it...? In this case some people in here stated it is an issue with search priorities, the phone suggests a different destination with a very similar name.

djt3• 14 years ago

It is quite common for tourists to get into trouble here in Australia due to the differences in climate etc too.

FYI, when you travel make sure to bring extra clothes, water and food. Australia is a massive land mass and it is hard to fathom for people form a lot of countries that it can be a very harsh place for the unprepared.

http://blog.australian-native.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2009...

Never have a single point of failure. A paper map or extra GPS at the bare minimum.

thisrod• 14 years ago

I'm intrigued that the police let this happen five times, and then put out a press release. After the second time in two weeks, I would have put up a sign: "This is not the road to Mildura. Go back and turn left at the highway."

isleyaardvark• 14 years ago

"Your iPhone is wrong" would be more effective.

jmspring4• 14 years ago

Even before the iOS 6 maps debacle, relying on GPS for guidance in places like National Parks was pretty dumb. There are multiple stories of people getting stranded (and even dying) when relying on maps for places like Death Valley. Often times, even if one is in a suitable vehicle, knowledge of the environment, what to do in case of a problem, etc. are essential necessities in the case of anything going wrong.

A buddy and I travel the back country of Death Valley regularly and the stories we have heard, the vehicles we have seen trying to go places they shouldn't, etc. are just amazing. At a certain point, however, common sense and personal responsibility need to be considered.

ChuckMcM• 14 years ago

Its not like bad map data on a free service can start a war, oh wait it can get that bad.[1]

[1] http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2010/nov/15/google-map-...

guscost• 14 years ago

"Anyone travelling to Mildura or other locations within Victoria should rely on other forms of mapping until this matter is rectified. Like Google Maps."

Explication mine.

prawn• 14 years ago

Recently drove a 4,500 km trip in Australia, including near Mildura. We relied on two iPhones, one with Google Maps and one with Apple's newer version. For the most part, we relied on Google's maps and they never failed. Occasionally, we switched to iOS 6 and had a few different problems including roads simply not existing. After a while, we'd watch the iOS 6 directions just for a laugh.

Some of the stretches further East of Mildura run 100-200km without petrol stations and supplies. A number of the national parks in those areas are unmanned and irregularly visited, and there can be long periods even on sealed roads where you might not sight another car in an hour of driving. For one stretch (in and out of Mungo National Park), we stocked up on a lot of extra water as a precaution and notified family of our plans. Having an infant with us, I was very conscious of how quickly the temperature can rise once the air-con is off.

Can easily see how people might blindly follow maps/GPS and end up caught out. Especially when you're relying on cached phone maps data if your connection drops, as it does frequently out there.

rytis• 14 years ago

I never rely on a phone whilst traveling (driving, cycling, hiking). When driving I mostly use built in car GPS or take a secondary dash mount GPS for longer journeys.

When on feet I use one primary eTrex with maps, and always have a cheap secondary hand held GPS without the maps. Plus a paper map. And a set of extra AA batteries.

Google search, maps and other good things you have on a smartphone are nice, but it's way too unreliable to my taste. Battery life is crap, and without a connection the phone is pretty useless, unless you use a mapping app that can download map data. In which case I'd rather use a dedicated mapping device.

EDIT: Obviously all the equipment can't replace common sense. If you see you can't go any further - don't. Even if all your electronic devices tell you otherwise.

wildranter• 14 years ago

Don't forget to pack a compass next time. If you ever run out of batteries just the map isn't enought to provide precise directions.

arethuza• 14 years ago

"Plus a paper map"

I'd never go anywhere risky without a paper map and conventional compass - I actually rarely use a GPS when out on the hill because I want to keep my navigation skills reasonably sharp. I generally only use a GPS device to confirm decisions I've already made in rather "tricky" situations.

megablast• 14 years ago

Was driving in the outback with some mates, and got a flat tire. We started to repair it, and a road train went by, and actually stopped about a 1/2 mile up the road. The guy came jogging back to make sure we were ok. That is when we realised we were in the middle of nowhere, and should be more careful.

oohmeplums• 14 years ago

It looks like this issue was caused by Apple mistakenly marking the centre of Local Government Areas as 'cities', in Australia at least. See example at http://imgur.com/qlciM for an example from Perth; Cambridge and Vincent aren't suburbs, and the others are in the wrong spot (Joondalup CBD is on the wrong side of the freeway)

mambodog• 14 years ago

A more glaring issue with Apple's map of Perth to my mind is that Fremantle Harbour has been completely filled in. See the bottom left of this Google map for comparison: http://i.imgur.com/GsmxQ.jpg

Pinatubo• 14 years ago

James Kim died just about 6 years ago. A lot of people blamed a GPS failure for his death, but apparently he and his family were using paper maps.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Kim

SyneRyder3• 14 years ago

I think I can explain this one - if I'm right, Apple already has the correct data, but is using it incorrectly.

One of the Apple Maps data sources is GeoNames (geonames.org), a free data source available under a Creative Commons Attribution license and also used with the search on OpenStreetMap. If you search for Mildura at OpenStreetMap (openstreetmap.org) you'll get the correct location of the town, but if you scroll down the GeoNames list you'll also be offered "Mildura Shire" as a search option. Click on that, and the pointer moves to a location similar to the Apple Maps screenshot, about 70km away from the actual town. It seems that's the location that Apple's search has chosen to prioritize, over the actual town.

Mildura Shire is listed in GeoNames as a "second-order administrative division", so it's probably similar to the middle of a county or council area.

This isn't a problem with datasets or incorrect data, it's a problem with how Apple is searching & prioritizing the correct data they already have. Choosing the "town" instead of the "second-order administrative division" would be appropriate here.

For what it's worth, GeoNames already prioritizes the town of Mildura correctly in their search engine.

saurik• 14 years ago

Something similar happens with Santa Barbara, but the results differ if you ask for driving directions or a normal search. A search for "Santa Barbara" returns the city, but if you ask for directions to "Santa Barbara" you are instead directed to a mountain range, probably because "Santa Barbara" is also the name of the county, which is fairly large and includes a lot of empty regions. (If you use "Santa Barbara, CA" instead, you deterministically get directed to the city.)

akent4• 14 years ago

Nice sleuthing, but if that were the case wouldn't the same problem be seen more broadly?

SyneRyder3• 14 years ago

You can see it more broadly, at least in Australia. I've been going through some of the examples listed at this blog: http://www.unsanelygreat.com/blog/2012/6/24/google-maps-vs-a...

Many don't line up with GeoNames data, but they do appear to be cases where a town name clashes with the name of a local council area, and Apple Maps have chosen the council area instead. Wanneroo is another example here: http://theamazingios6maps.tumblr.com/post/32038150409/wanner...

DeepDuh• 14 years ago

The gist for me is that you need local offices for mapping quality control. Probably the best option for apple would be to set up a mapping office inside each of their Apple stores.

akent4• 14 years ago

Belatedly, it looks like it is seen more broadly, here are a couple of examples: http://pic.twitter.com/M4JRKQW9 http://pic.twitter.com/epOUWKDd

smikhanov• 14 years ago

You can see similar inconsistencies around Moscow. For some districts (район) in Moscow region, the name of the district on a map always sticks to the location of the main town in the district as you zoom in. Google map places the name of the district in the middle of the area it covers, so when you zoom in, it drifts away from the main town (which not always in the center of the district area). Again, seems like Apple map confuses administrative division units with towns.

chippy• 14 years ago

Apple needs geographers.

bentcorner• 14 years ago

It's also a general UI problem with online maps. If you get directions to a city you'll get directions to a specific point within that city, instead of to the area that the city encompasses. It looks like the Shire of Mildura is an area that is 10,000 square kilometers. Having your map directions show that your destination is a broad swath of the country would be an easy way to tip you off that something is wrong with your directions.

It's not limited to Apple maps either - I've seen this on other consumer-grade online mapping services too. Sometimes searching for a specific location/address may default to the city that is in your search term, but if you're not paying attention you can be led astray.

readme• 14 years ago

So, no, it's not good that apple's map data is inaccurate. But the title might be misleading.

The bottom line is if you're driving into a wilderness area like a national park, you should not be depending on your cell phone for your own safety. One of the first things they tell you if you read the pamphlet outside of a hiking area is: do not depend on you cell phone.

So sure, the map data is inaccurate. The more dangerous thing about this is that your battery has a finite lifespan. Also your signal is not guaranteed.

You need to bring water, you need to bring supplies. You need to bring warm clothing.

Seriously.

dools• 14 years ago

The bottom line is if you're driving into a wilderness area like a national park, you should not be depending on your cell phone for your own safety

Mildura isn't a wilderness area, it's just a town in regional Victoria.

The point is that this thing is taking people saying they want to go to Mildura (which is a town, not a wilderness area or a national park) and sending them into a national park with no infrastructure.

These aren't people who have decided to "go hiking", they are just visiting a regional town centre.

Cogito3• 14 years ago

Maybe it wasn't obvious to you from the article, but the issue here is that the maps direct you into a national park instead of Mildura, a nice little Victorian town.

These people getting lost are not intending to drive "into a wilderness area like a national park", but were led into one by mistaken data.

Yes, you could presume that the signs you were going the wrong way might be self evident after a little while, but if someone had literally no idea where Mildura was then they could easily end up in the middle of this national park assuming their iPhone was simply taking them the long way 'round. As they have no other choice they keep following the maps until they get to where they have been directed, only to find themselves in the middle of nowhere with no help and no reception.

This is a serious problem, and the map data needs to be fixed.

onedev• 14 years ago

So you're telling me they ignored every sign that told them they were entering a national park?

5 different groups of people managed to not even have a tiny bit of skepticism?

dchichkov• 14 years ago

Was driving from SF to Big Sur some time back. Google totally tried to take me off road from HW 1 [turn right. turn right now], and then calmly stated "There is no route to your destination".

RyJones• 14 years ago

Google Maps is frequently broken around the thinly-populated Seattle metro area. I've filed bug after bug, to no avail; in the end, I stopped using it altogether. It cannot handle the I90 express lanes in either direction; getting directions to somewhere on Mercer Island from Seattle when you're on the express lanes eastbound gets a route to Bellevue, turn around, and come back. No, that's OK, I'll take one of the Mercer Island exits, thank you.

Furthermore, the transit integration is so broken as to be useless. Asking for a route from Kirkland to the Seattle federal building gives you a bus route to downtown Kirkland (the post office, actually). The POIs in that area are AFU.

WestCoastJustin• 14 years ago

Here is a horror story about a couple from my province that "became stuck in a remote area when their GPS system led them on to a back road" [1].

[1] http://www.usaprepares.com/survival/husband-died-just-six-mi...

assharif• 14 years ago

This never would have happened if Steve Jobs was alive

jstclair5• 14 years ago

I had to go to the main emergency room in Oslo last week. iOS6 couldn't find it, or even the correct street. Looking at the map in detail later, it didn't even have a building at the correct location. I was furious.

kanamekun• 14 years ago

Did you find it on the Google Map website/web app?

jstclair5• 14 years ago

Yep; on the first try. Unfortunately, I was trying to drive my son (who had broken his arm) and the Google driving directions would only display the list mode, rather than on the map. I ended up finding the building on Google Maps, then dropping a pin on iOS Maps, and using the turn-by-turn.

All-in-all a stressful experience

tallanvor• 14 years ago

Fairly new to Oslo?

I'm not saying you should have known where it is or anything like that, mind you.

jstclair5• 14 years ago

About a year, after living in Bergen for 10. But only my second trip to Storgata 40, and if you've actually driven there, you'd know that the signage is pretty terrible, and -- along with the construction -- it's pretty non-intuitive to get to the entrance.

mattquiros• 14 years ago

Can't help noticing how those who've never had problems with Apple Maps are usually people from the US. The iPhone is sold in other parts of the world too, you know.

pthreadses• 14 years ago

Actually I've noticed quite the opposite. At least in the more populated parts of Europe, in my experience Apple Maps does fine and in some cases does better than Google Maps (in my home city of Berlin I find Apple Maps to have been an improvement, primarily in the department of Apple Maps "knowing what it doesn't know" where as Google seems to guess and be wrong. Also, transit. Google is terrible for transit in Europe).

I recently used Apple Maps to roadtrip through Germany and Austria, and it worked without a single hiccup. This summer I had the beta running in Switzerland and it was fine.

In the darker corners of Europe, well, I'll just say in Belgrade iOS maps literally had nothing but a pin. No streets at all. So it seems wildly dependent on where you are.

hnruss• 14 years ago

Whatever happened to reading road signs? They are actually pretty easy to use.

Argorak• 14 years ago

Out of couriosity, I navigated the Kalahari with both a map and a TomTom. I was quite surprised to find that the paths were quite accurate - but shifted by roughly 5 kms. So I could use the maps, but not the navigation capabilities of the system at all.

lisperforlife• 14 years ago

I would pay money for a google maps app.

mtgx• 14 years ago

Apple's hatred towards Google is now putting people's lives at risk. Good job, Apple.

nicholassmith• 14 years ago

Oddly enough Google Maps got me lost before, a couple of times. Lets stop assuming Google Maps was all that and a bag of chips, it did have issues at times.

I think it's because I've done long journeys powered by digital maps but I always made sure that there was an agreement level between two, or that it looked sane on a tried and tested road map. As good as they've gotten for the most part they're still prone to bugs, or to lose signal. Paper maps are a car essential still.

Mordor• 14 years ago

Steve Jobs was great at coming late to market with a product superior to everyone else. Time is telling of his replacement..

ck2• 14 years ago

So what was the death rate before iphone or any smartphone existed?

What if the iphone battery dies, even with super accurate maps?

I don't have a cellphone plan so I carry paper maps, I guess I am old and old fashioned.

chris_wot7• 14 years ago

Not to mention smart. If you go to the outback in many areas of Australia without a map or a backup plan, you are seriously risking your life.

Flenser• 14 years ago

You should always have a road atlas in your car. Batteries run out and network connections may not be reliable, you will always have access to a paper map if you have one. If you have an atlas you can always navigate yourself out of any problem (diversions, heavy traffic, accidents closing roads etc.) and they are a good sanity check of whatever your GPS or map app is telling you. Better yet, check your route in the atlas before you set out and you will know your route better, and be able to react quicker to any unforeseen problems.

tripzilch• 14 years ago

I heard similar stories about Google Maps a few years ago, people getting stuck in US desert/parks because the GPS is incorrect (and also reception wasn't good back then, but that might have improved by now maybe).

At least this story is hitting the HN front page. Because the park rangers were hitting Google's traditionally deaf customer service ears (which must have been super-frustrating because people had already died and/or gotten into life-threatening situations).

I lost the link to that article, sorry. If I happen upon it, I'll post it here.

On the one hand I suppose it's people's own fault for venturing into dangerous terrain unprepared. But on the other hand, what's the use of having GPS Maps when you don't know when it's trustworthy or not? Great effort by OpenStreetMap (read below) of cross-checking their own maps for consistency with competitor maps, is at least a step in the right direction.

davemaya• 14 years ago

They misplaced the main hospital in Cambridge, UK.

asc76• 14 years ago

They first to to get it to work properly.

djbender• 14 years ago

"Apple i-phone."

MagnitudeSw2• 14 years ago

The new maps drop a major landmark on my street in Atlanta. We went from dead quiet to non-stop traffic. Not good when people are driving 30+ MPH staring at their phones in confusion.

It's been 1.5 months since we've had everyone we can think of submit the problem. Still not fixed.

What does it take for Apple to actually "fix" an incorrect pin location and label?

Police concerned with Apple iOS 6 mapping system

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