In Emacs, everything looks like a service

http://yummymelon.com/devnull/in-emacs-everything-looks-like-a-service.html

by kickingvegas • 13 days ago

259 117 13 days ago

mimo842• 13 days ago

I have been using emacs for the past couple of years. Started because I wanted to try out org mode and stayed for the extreme flexibility it offers.

smitty1e2• 13 days ago

I've been on spacemacs.org for a while, but since I've got a Keychron G6 Pro where I can reprogram the caps lock, I'm going to try out some hard-core init.el stylings.

Suggestions welcome.

mimo842• 13 days ago

I also started on spacemacs but then I wanted to learn the basics of it and switched to writing my own configuration from scratch. What helped me the most is reading though the Mastering Emacs book by Mickey Petersen which is an amazing resource to learn the basics and beyond. Right now I'm in the process of reducing the number of external packages I use and I'm trying to use more of the built in functionality that is available "out of the box".

tmtvl• 11 days ago

Assuming you're on GNU/Linux:

  (setq read-process-output-max
        (with-temp-buffer
          (insert-file-contents "/proc/sys/fs/pipe-max-size")
          (string-to-number (buffer-string))))

kandros• 13 days ago

One of the pivotal moments in my career has been when I used Emacs just enough to truly understand what "Emacs is an operating system" means, not just as a joke but as something I could believe in

bcjdjsndon2• 12 days ago

But you already had an operating system and you could already code... Did Emacs really give YOU any capability you didn't have before? Don't forget this is a text editor, not an IDE or some general purpose automation harness

You could add lisp to mspaint and mspaint suddenly becomes awesome somehow? I don't follow the logic

rausr• 12 days ago

Don't forget this is a text editor, not an IDE or some general purpose automation harness

It's more correctly a Lisp execution environment with a text editor added as a bonus ;)

ryukafalz• 12 days ago

It certainly did for me, because it let me trivially write code that integrates deeply into the rest of the system.

A simple example: I wrote a function that let me highlight an X.509 cert in a YAML document, regardless of indentation, and pass it to 'openssl x509' to show me what it is. This has saved me lots of time over the years not having to copy/paste, fiddle with whitespace, etc. But it's only valuable because the functionality is now right at my fingertips in the environment I'm already in!

skydhash• 12 days ago

The Emacs API is kinda huge, with things like very raw network API, a very good approximation of fork/exec process management, buffers as the base communication mechanism with a lot of capabilities, various utility function with regards to interfacing with the user (windows, frame, faces, keyboard events), then the hooks and advice subsystem.

With Unix, most programs are binary and while the shell is a good glue language, you can’t alter a program and the OS that much. With Emacs, only the core coded in C is sacred, anything else can be modified to fit your workflow. And there’s a lot of packages out there to provide you with raw materials.

lelanthran• 12 days ago

Did Emacs really give YOU any capability you didn't have before?

`M-x docter` is something I never had before.

shakow3• 12 days ago

Don't forget this is a text editor, not [a] general purpose automation harness

This arguable. I personally use emacs for text editing for sure, but not only: it also does emails (notmuch), git (magit), team & project management (org), mastodon, fleet management (nix + colmena + custom elisp functions), and, more importantly, all these “applications” can mutually share data.

So can you use emacs as a text editor only? Sure. Can you leverage its intrinsic abilities to reach what might be called an automation harness? Yes as well.

wtetzner5• 12 days ago

You could add lisp to mspaint and mspaint suddenly becomes awesome somehow?

TBH that does sound pretty awesome, assuming good primitive operations were exposed through the Lisp API.

jerf2• 12 days ago

It sounds like you think emacs is some sort of basic text editor, I dunno, like Notepad on Windows, that has an adjoined Lisp interpreter?

Admittedly, it doesn't help that there are some sibling comments that implicitly seem to be speaking that way.

However, Emacs is a 42-year-old software program that has been in constant development this entire time. Its git repository has over 180,000 commits right now on its main branch, which is still 20,000 ahead of VSCode. It doesn't just have a Lisp editor attached, it has 1.6 million lines of Lisp in it as well, and that's just the source repo, not all of the extensions you can get for it. Using "cloc" to count the total lines of source it has, it's still pretty close to 2/3rds the lines of code than VSCode has, at 2,613,748 for emacs versus 3,849,521 for VSCode. So that's the scale we're talking here, something on par with an IDE, not something on par with a simple text editor.

Yes, it gives you a lot of capabilities you didn't have before. The joke about it being a decent OS that needs a good text editor comes from the fact it has a large number of things it can do out of the box that aren't just text editing. It isn't just Notepad with a Lisp interpreter attached. It has vast capabilities that have been implemented and then also tested over the course of decades. Considering the set of disadvantages it carries with it, like weird key bindings and the fact that the variant of lisp it uses is more-or-less unique to emacs, somewhat analogously to the handicap principle [1] one should counterintuitively understand that as a sign that it must have extraordinary strengths that are able to offset that.

(I've used it for a long time, but I never really learned Lisp. AIs are making it much easier to customize than ever, though. I've said many times here on HN that I think every line of AI code should be reviewed. So yesterday I prompted Claude to build some Lisp functions so I can declare 1. a base directory 2. a regex of file names to match and produce 3. a function to walk over the entire directory forwards or backwards with CTRL-x CTRL-n or CTRL-x CTRL-p, thus allowing me to easily walk through an entire project for review purposes systematically. Nobody had to give me permission to do that. I didn't need to "create an extension". I don't have to care if anyone else in the world wants it. It's not the only editor that can do this as easily as emacs but it's a short list.)

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handicap_principle

wmedrano• 12 days ago

I think of Emacs as more of a lisp machine than text editor. I'm also not sure what an IDE has over Emacs. I have autocomplete, compiler checks, and run tests all within Emacs.

For general automation, my blog is built with Emacs Lisp.

forlorn_mammoth• 12 days ago

Don't forget this [emacs] is a text editor, not an IDE or some general purpose automation harness

How familiar are you with Emacs?

coldtea• 12 days ago

Don't forget this is a text editor, not an IDE or some general purpose automation harness

It's all 3 and way more.

You could add lisp to mspaint and mspaint suddenly becomes awesome somehow? I don't follow the logic

That much is a given (for both)

ordu• 12 days ago

Don't forget this is a text editor, not an IDE or some general purpose automation harness

Technically, it is just a text editor. It was created to be a text editor, so you are right, but up to a point.

Emacs is written in lisp, what it means? It means that the only part of emacs written in C is a lisp machine. And even not the whole lisp machine is written in C: there is a rudimentary read-eval-print loop (REPL), and maybe a bytecode interpreted. This REPL I believe is just to boot up purposes and is replaced with proper lisp implementation on later boot up stages. It is not lisp added to a text editor, it is a text editor added to lisp. It means, in particular, you can add to that lisp not just text editor but anything else too, like mspaint for example.

And people do just that. They write software in emacs. In particular they wrote IDE in emacs, so while emacs by itself is not an IDE, you can turn it into one.

some general purpose automation harness

Oh, it is. It is more general than any other automation harness you know. It is a lisp machine, you can automate anything in it. Well, technically you can, in practice it can take take too much time to be practical. In practice when choosing automation harness, you'd prefer not the most general, but the most specific harness for your task.

homarp• 12 days ago

the analogy is you have mspaint (or blender)

you add MCP (or an API)

suddenly with llama.cpp and a small model like qwen 3.6 35B, you can automate things by just asking.

emacs same thing, you can 'script' everything. Except no LLM needed

mvc• 12 days ago

You could add lisp to mspaint and mspaint suddenly becomes awesome somehow? I don't follow the logic

Yes exactly! https://docs.gimp.org/3.2/en/gimp-using-script-fu-tutorial.h...

tikhonj2• 12 days ago

Emacs is, in fact, an IDE and some general purpose automation harness. And some other stuff.

That's the point.

rshackleford13• 12 days ago

I send text messages from Emacs because my phone doesn't get service in my basement. Sure I could do the same thing with any programming language, but it took me like 2 hours to hack something together on top of Emacs' built in IRC client.

iLemming3• 12 days ago

Emacs is not an editor. It's a Lisp-powered text orchestrator. It allows you to read, write, ocr, encrypt, decrypt, compile, debug, profile, browse, rss, email, calendar, track, journal, publish, tangle, run, query, spawn, multiplex, ssh, edit, diff, merge, blame, rebase, stage, review, chat, note, link, roll, play, run, preview, transcode, transcript, evaluate, redefine, introspect and rebuild anything in your computational vicinity - local and remote machines.

pjmlp3• 13 days ago

A common refrain is that Emacs is an operating system (OS). This isn’t true, but what invites comparison to an OS is its ability to orchestrate applications and utilities above the OS kernel level.

Only because Lisp Machines, or variations thereof didn't took off in the mainstream.

"Symbolics Lisp Machine demo"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4-YnLpLgtk

"Emacs and Lisp"

https://funcall.blogspot.com/2025/04/emacs-and-lisp.html

While Emacs was forked by Lucid as XEmacs to make one of the very first ideas of LSP, nowadays most features have been integrated back into Emacs

https://dreamsongs.com/Cadillac.html

"Lucid Energize Demo"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQQTScuApWk

charcircuit2• 13 days ago

Even if LISP machines took off, an editor running on them still would not be an OS. Such claims come from people who don't understand what a platform is and who can conflate any platform with an operating system. You also see these people calling web browsers operating systems. By this flawed definition you could even call things like Roblox an operating system.

pjmlp3• 13 days ago

"An operating system is a collection of things that don't fit into a language. There shouldn't be one"

-- Dan Ingalls

abecedarius• 12 days ago

An OS is a virtual machine meant to be shared among programs. Sure the central examples expose most of an ISA that they run on themselves, but there are also examples like Inferno, Taos, AS/400.

deterministic• 7 days ago

Only because Lisp Machines, or variations thereof didn't took off in the mainstream

It apparently turned out that it was more efficient to compile Lisp to a "normal" CPU instead of using an expensive custom non-generic "Lisp" CPU.

driva• 13 days ago

It's a shell not an operating system but the concept of a shell isn't commonly understood.

archargelod• 12 days ago

I see shell as an instrument through which you use other tools. In that sense, vi feels much more like a shell, because you have to use other standard unix programs with `:.!` for much functionality.

Where Emacs comes with all bells and whistles included in one big distribution, much like an operating system.

cturner• 12 days ago

Something that undermines the operating system angle is that emacs does not implement hardware drivers. All interaction with the computer go via system calls.

Norton Commander contains a text editor. Emacs operates at that level, whilst being reprogrammable.

regexorcist• 12 days ago

Most people aren't using vim that way. For your example, tmux would be more like emacs in the sense that you live in it, manages your windows, etc. Vim is just another tool in some window along with others.

girvel• 12 days ago

I did not get this argument. Diagrams are nice, and I probably missed something in lisp code (not used to lisp syntax), but I see no argument that Emacs has more service-like interaction with other apps or its plugins than say vim or vscode. I agree that emacs is the most OS-like, but I would love if someone explained what exactly is the point in the article

floathub• 12 days ago

Came across this recently, which I find is a good and short intro to Emacs for people who don't use it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJZDmO5yOxE

pedro_caetano• 12 days ago

Now I am really curious to see Anon Emoose's init.el

deng• 12 days ago

This just proves that you can cram pretty much anything into the client/server dichotomy if you just define "client", "server" and "request" broad enough. Similarly, I remember how desperately people tried to argue that Emacs follows the "Unix philosophy" as long as your LISP functions are doing just one thing, and do them well. I don't know what you would gain from these things. Emacs follows the idea of LISP machines, I think that much anybody can agree on. From there, Emacs can be or do pretty much whatever you want. It's excellent in communicating with CLI tools - you can call that client/server if you want, but I wouldn't know what you'd gain from that definition. The reality is that Emacs has gone through a lot of fads and hypes over its decades of existence, and each time, it has taken something along the way. Heck, there's a whole semantic parsing engine buried within (CEDET), which nowadays is pretty much unused, because then LSPs came along, and now we have agents (which Emacs btw is a pretty decent frontend for).

znpy2• 12 days ago

Heck, there's a whole semantic parsing engine buried within (CEDET), which nowadays is pretty much unused

In fairness that used to be common to have in most IDEs.

I don’t know if it’s still the case but i remember that the first java language server was spun off the Eclipse’s java semantic parsing engine.

stormking3• 12 days ago

Emacs is a LISP refugee in Unixland. It doesn't follow the Unix philosophy, it follows the LISP philosophy. But it integrates.

Forgot where I found this.

rshackleford13• 12 days ago

Bash is a shell refugee in Unixland. It doesn't follow the Unix philosophy, it follows the Shell philosophy. But it integrates.

Why do you say such silly things?

bitwize2• 12 days ago

In Emacs, everything looks like a part of the core system. The whole thing is just one unvariegated blob of Lisp, which could be a strength or a weakness depending on your perspective. Me, I happen to like that sort of thing.

kleiba27• 12 days ago

I've been an Emacs user for over 25 years. But last year I switched employers and they won't let me use it even for tasks where it would absolutely shine. Their argument is that all team members should use the same tools, and I guess that is a valid point.

Unfortunately, I failed to convince my employer to make everybody else switch to Emacs.

So, now I'm using lots of one-purpose tools, one for each separate task, a good deal less efficiently than I could use Emacs, and I'm still learning all the new UIs and keyboard mappings.

jerf2• 12 days ago

... how would they tell?

kleiba27• 12 days ago

By looking at my screen? But also, why would you disobey a direct instruction from you super?

wtetzner5• 12 days ago

Their argument is that all team members should use the same tools, and I guess that is a valid point.

Why is that a valid point?

tom_alexander• 12 days ago

In my case, I am a very senior member of my team so 25-50% of each day is spent helping and/or teaching teammates. In situations like that, it is useful to be deeply familiar with the tools that your teammates are using so you can tell them exactly what to do.

For example, if I'm teaching a new hire to set up their vscode it is not very helpful to tell them "now you need to activate the python venv". It is much more helpful to be able to tell them "Now we're going to activate the python venv. To do that, open your command palette and search for 'select python interpreter'".

In my personal life, I still exclusively use emacs (which I have scripted to auto-detect venvs) but I put up with using vscode at work to be a greater utility to my team.

tom_• 12 days ago

It's just less effort all round to have everybody using the same supported set of tools. I don't know if I've ever worked on a project that's gone so far as to actually mandate this, but a "should" (possibly in the RFC sense) is fair enough I think. Every project I've worked on has ended up with everybody eventually settling on using the same tools, because it's just overall less hassle that way.

(Regarding Emacs, I'm typically using it anyway for org-mode, so if I need to do some one-off edit or other - probably some keyboard macro thing - then I can just load the problem file into Emacs and save it back out again afterwards. I've only once been in the situation of neither being allowed to install it nor remotely connect to another machine to use it.)

masfoobar4• 12 days ago

At a company I work for, they are doing various changes (and control) over the software we install as we transition to a larger company. I believe they are using Microsoft Intune so they can allow/deny what can be installed.

I have not updated my laptop (or got a new one) because I am concerned they will not allow me to install or continue to use Emacs. Honestly, I can vision how that conversation goes:-

[manager]: Hi, so what is Emacs

[me]: Emacs is a text editor I use daily and makes me efficient in my work

[manager]: OK. I would like us to start using Visual Studio Code with the new projects coming up

[me]: Why? The consumption models we are using has no VSCode support, anyway.

[manager]: It would just be good if we are all using the same tools

[me]: It should not matter what we use as long as we work with git and deployment. If someone else is great with a different text editor why force them to use something else?

[manager]: (Looks up emacs)

[manager]: I think its best we stopped using it because it is not supported by Microsoft and we need to be careful with the dangers of open source.

[me]: OK. Should we contact other IT departments to replace any open source tools they use?

[manager]: Its just emacs is not verified software for the business. I think you are complicating things a little (tries to belittle me)

[me]: Emacs is my daily driver! If it goes, I will hand in my resignation!

* Manager is not there to understand or reason.. he is just following orders from other IT departments. *

ks6g10• 12 days ago

I scheduled my intune upgrade when I needed a week off for doing house moving stuff. I was told Emacs would work, didn't. Took them about a week before I could use it again.

kleiba27• 12 days ago

I worked briefly in public administration at one point in my career. I asked the admins the same thing, could I get Emacs installed on my machine. I got a bit concerned when the admin staff asked back: "What is Emacs?"

znpy2• 12 days ago

Back in the day when i had a windows laptop for work you could just download the windows binary distribution of emacs and run that, has something changed?

stormking3• 12 days ago

Over the past 15 years, I worked for 4 different companies in 4 different industries and I never had any trouble getting Emacs approved.

They were all rather smallish, always around 200 employees, though.

iLemming3• 12 days ago

they are doing various changes (and control)

OMG. Don't let me even start here. Corporate IT cultures sometimes are so exhaustingly cretinous. With straight faces they'd perform "security theatre" that has nothing to do with security, but is still just so infuriatingly time-consuming and ignorant on even most basic things. Honestly, I am so thankful to Emacs for cultivating a hacker's mindset in me, otherwise I'd be so freaking burned out all the time if I didn't know how to bypass most of the nonsense they enforce on everyone. I even asked my IT guy once: "I don't get it, don't they realize that devs are just gonna play along with this bullshit maybe a couple of times and then they'll just fucking script a workaround? I for sure will...", and he was like: "I know, it is so stupid, but hey, I don't make these decisions here..."

jimbokun4• 10 days ago

Start sending out your resume and reaching out to your network about other jobs.

Any company that anally controls every last software developers can install is a dead man walking. At least the software development part of the company.

Getting up to speed on new tools and new technologies is essential to the job of software development. Projects will grind to a halt and fail to deliver, but the management will never understand the InTune lockdown is the cause.

skilning2• 12 days ago

Their argument is that all team members should use the same tools, and I guess that is a valid point

No. That's only a valid point if something about the tool must be shared between users, rather than just the output. Emacs is a text editor. It reads, modifies, and produces text. The correct tool for each team member to use is the one they're most productive with, full stop.

Jesus fucking Shiva while Odin watches, but I hate corporate management "thinking". It's just become more and more brain-dead over the decades.

clircle• 12 days ago

Emacs users (myself included) would feel less like cramming every aspect of our work into Emacs if more tools embodied the freedom and hackability that comes with using Emacs. It's not that Emacs is better, it's that other tools are more restrictive and not self-documenting.

NoGravitas• 12 days ago

It's also helpful that you get a certain degree of UI consistency from things like completing-read being used everywhere. And even when some package departs from convention, everything is still a buffer, so anything in it is easy to reuse.

kleiba27• 10 days ago

That, and also the fact that everything is well-integrated and interoperable, allowing a more seamless interaction between the different tools.

rglullis• 12 days ago

Their argument is that all team members should use the same tools, and I guess that is a valid point.

Why?! It is a text editor for crying out loud. If you are more productive using the tools you want, don't cost anything to the company and doesn't force your colleagues to adopt your workflow, you could be working with notepad for all I care.

Arubis• 12 days ago

Having everyone on a team have different personalities is managerially inefficient. You have to deal with each team member in a different way instead of being able to have a unified emotional approach. So we required frontal lobotomies for everyone on the team.

koiueo• 12 days ago

Unironically. I once was told by my manager, that I got to fix being an introvert.

I stayed for 8 months in that company (would be less, but such is the expat's life on a visa), and leaving was the best professional decision of my life.

isityettime• 12 days ago

What about the job is so good as to make you tolerate this?

TylerE2• 12 days ago

Taken a look at the job market lately? Unless you’re like the top 1% (which most people aren’t), it’s extremely bleak.

BeetleB3• 12 days ago

Their argument is that all team members should use the same tools, and I guess that is a valid point.

Not really. If they mandated all team members use telnet instead of ssh, would you say their position is valid?

Anyway, the important thing to learn is "You're not supposed to ask if you can use Emacs. Just use it!"

Incidentally, do they have a mandated general text editor? And if they do, will you get in trouble for firing up Notepad?

Do they have a mandated TODO tool (for your own tracking of work, not something like Jira meant for the whole group)? I've yet encountered a place that did.

Basically, find some category that Emacs does that they've not mandated, and then install Emacs and tell people you're using it for that category :-)

iLemming3• 12 days ago

What a nightmare. The day anyone tells me not to use a specific editor regardless of what it is, I'd be opening their suggested one to type my resignation letter. And not because I love Emacs, Vim or whatever.

I mean I'd understand enforcing using specific tools while pair-programming, mentoring, etc., but not allowing a software engineer to use whatever editor they are most comfortable using at all is not even dystopian, it's simply imbecilic. How are they supposed to not just "perform" but to get any shit done at all? It's equivalent of hiring a secretary and asking them to type everything in Hebrew (a language they have zero awareness of), using Dvorak (a layout they've never tried) and then complaining that their typing speed is undesirable.

How the fuck do these people even get to managerial positions? How in the world are these kinds of companies and company cultures not bankrupted themselves out of existence?

phyzix57612• 12 days ago

You could set the building on fire.

agentultra• 12 days ago

I learned a while ago that eMacs is more like a programming environment that has a text editor built in. Sort of like some SmallTalk images. When you think of it this way it’s pretty neat.

SoftTalker2• 12 days ago

Emacs itself can run as a client and server. To start the server:

  emacs --daemon

Then use `emacsclient` to connect to it. All `emacsclient` instances whether in terminals or GUI are using the same server and can access the same open files and buffers.

Unfortunately it only works locally. I've tried to forward the emacs server socket over ssh to a remote client and it doesn't work.

rozularen• 12 days ago

could you see the reason it didn't work?

SoftTalker2• 12 days ago

It's been a number of years, and all I really remember is coming to the conclusion that "emacsclient only works with a local server." It uses a domain socket for this, but forwarding that from a remote server doesn't seem to be enough.

Simply editing a remote file over an ssh connection is easy enough using TRAMP, but that isn't the same as accessing existing buffers in a remote server.

MarsIronPI2• 12 days ago

Forwarding the socket doesn't work, but if you use X11 then you can use `ssh -X`, and the remote Emacs will open a frame on your local X server.

Do beware though that if you use the non-PGTK GTK build, closing this new frame will crash the remote Emacs.

jolmg2• 12 days ago

`ssh -X` has awful performance for some reason. You can see each line render individually when invoking the Info manual on Emacs even while within LAN.

It's better if you enable TCP connections on your X11 server, setup a Wireguard VPN between your Emacs host and your X11 server host, and a firewall to only permit X11 connections over that. Throughput and latency then should be so good the remote Emacs window/frame will be indistinguishable from local ones (at least within LAN, haven't really tried over the internet).

Do beware though that if you use the non-PGTK GTK build, closing this new frame will crash the remote Emacs.

Guess I've used the good one. Haven't had this problem. What I do have is that if you open a frame in a host that you then put to sleep long enough for the X11 connection to timeout on the Emacs host, then `emacs --daemon` will crash. When I've used it, I've just made sure to save buffers often. systemd would start `emacs --daemon` again on its own.

`emacs --daemon` has no problem using multiple simultaneous X11 connections to different hosts, but it just doesn't handle the connections closing on their own. It also doesn't itself close X11 connections when all frames to an X11 server have been closed. So even if you close all of a machine's Emacs frames prior to putting it to sleep, it still causes `emacs --daemon` to crash.

kickingvegas2• 12 days ago

In retrospect, the name `emacsclient` was a poor one because in 2026 most folks new to Emacs expect it to act like a REST client, where runtime state is synchronized between the client and server over a network. Emacs' usage of ‘client’ and ‘server’ here refer to the usage of a Unix local domain (i.e. file system) socket for simple control commands from the socket client. This was later extended to support a network socket, but the client still only sends simple control commands.

jolmg2• 12 days ago

Emacs' usage of ‘client’ and ‘server’ here refer to [...] simple control commands

Despite that, it still enables this:

where runtime state is synchronized between the client and server over a network

On graphical X11 frames:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48864196

but it also enables having multiple TUI `emacsclient -c -nw` frames over SSH.

kickingvegas2• 12 days ago

OP here. This post resonated far more than expected. Thanks all for the feedback!

jhalloran• 12 days ago

One thing that's easy to forget is how much of the "everything is a service" idea predates LSP. Emacs had long-running subprocesses, RPC-ish interactions, TRAMP, GUD, REPL integration, etc. LSP standardized one important interface, but it wasn't the beginning of the architecture.

GregDavidson• 12 days ago

Emacs is a Platform. Operating Systems are also Platforms. Many other things are platforms. A platform is a layer of software designed to enable you to build new things on it. This should raise the question: What platform X would be good for building this thing Y I want to build? I often find X = Emacs, but also Racket, Rust, et al. An application which is also a good platform may be worth a greater learning investment than a simpler application would justify.

In Emacs, everything looks like a service

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