Sodium-ion "salt" batteries will revolutionize electric-vehicle and grid storage

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2532997-salt-batteries-are-about-to-shake-up-evs-and-grid-storage/

by ck2 • 15 days ago

40 61 15 days ago

ck23• 15 days ago

note sodium-ion is no longer two or three times the weight of lithium-ion, there is only a +33% penalty

apparently the problem is there is not yet enough volume in production to compete on price, which I thought was the whole point?

sodium-ion specs have improved to the point that the technology could break into the general EV market. A recent study by Moritz Schütte at Aachen University in Germany and his colleagues found that a sodium-ion battery by the manufacturer Hina rivals Tesla’s lithium-ion batteries on most parameters, although it would still be a third heavier
But CATL claims its sodium-ion battery has an energy density of 175 watt-hours per kilogram, which can compete with the lithium-iron-phosphate batteries in low-cost models from Tesla and others. And while sodium-ion batteries still haven’t quite beaten lithium batteries on price, that could change as they expand, according to Schütte
sodium ions generate less heat in electrochemical reactions, reducing fire risk, so less money can be spent on cooling. They also form weaker bonds with the electrolyte, so they don’t slow down as much in the cold

jtr1• 15 days ago

I do wonder if there will be a convergence between sodium-ion battery architectures and cheaper, renewable-powered desalination. Could industrial seawater mining be competitive as a sodium feedstock source?

soco3• 15 days ago

I just realize we have heaps and heaps of seasalt sludge around desalinization units. Dirty sludge, but salty nevertheless, right there at the fingertips. Maybe some of it could be useful?

mekdoonggi2• 15 days ago

That's competing against LFP chemistry, so 33% penalty on a chemistry that itself has a penalty versus NMC.

My understanding about sodium though is that the performance in cold and heat is excellent. So even if you pay a penalty for weight, you can drop the thermal management, which saves quite a bit.

For grid storage, this chemistry will be a game changer. For vehicle, I think it has a ways to go before being preferred over LFP, but that's a guess.

ck23• 15 days ago

like LiFePo4, sodium-ion also won't burn

ie. so the fire department doesn't have to spend three days trying to put out a Tesla fire

for long hauls, not stop and go city traffic, the weight penalty doesn't matter as much once the weight is moving

a tractor-trailer could have a huge cell behind the cab or replacement the massive diesel tanks?

Havoc2• 15 days ago

Really hoping this enables safer battery tech too. Lithium fires are scary

SoftTalker• 15 days ago

Are sodium fires less scary?

alserio• 15 days ago

Actually, yes

stronglikedan2• 15 days ago

sodium fires don't make their own oxygen, so I would presume they are less scary

WarmWash2• 15 days ago

In some sodium-ion chemistries they release hydrogen cyanide gas.

Havoc2• 15 days ago

Yeah. Still absolutely a bad day but less rapid and dramatic

ajross3• 15 days ago

And gasoline fires and high speed collisions aren't? This is the bit of paranoia around EV deployment that I genuinely fail to understand. Personal vehicles are by far the most dangerous apparatus with which we interact, already. And we're fine with it! Have you ever, even once, called a Civic or Vespa "scary"?

But put a battery in it suddenly they need new tech before you'll be comfortable?

AndrewDucker• 15 days ago

It's not just vehicles. Battery fires from electric bikes and scooters have also caused issues. And currently you can't put a battery pack into plane hold luggage because of fire risks.

jerf• 15 days ago

Ask your local fire department about putting fires out in battery-powered cars versus gasoline cars. Yes, there is a qualitative difference and it's not in favor of the battery-powered cars.

That's not to say that it's a stopper for them; it's just part of the cost/benefits analysis. The idea of technologies that are better on all parts of the cost/benefit analysis at once is a science fiction or video game concept. In the real world there's always a mixture of positives and negatives between two different technologies.

coldtea4• 15 days ago

And gasoline fires and high speed collisions aren't?

Gasoline car fires are quite rarer in modern cars (don't know about the 1950s), and easier to put off than battery car fires.

And people are already afraid of high speed collisions, plus they are orthogonal of the energy technology used.

Personal vehicles are by far the most dangerous apparatus with which we interact, already.

And under what framing does it make sense to use the above to argue in favor of adding a dangerous battery tech to them is thus not problematic?

dgacmu• 15 days ago

You seem to be turning this into a discussion of vehicles, but the post you're replying to was purely about batteries. I get it - ICE cars suck. But speaking for myself, I waited until I could get LFP batteries before adding a lot of lithium to my house. I deemed the fire risk of NMC not worth the benefits. I now have about 15kWh of LFP and I'm happy as a clam.

giantg2• 15 days ago

Maybe. But anyone who has worked with sodium is likely to be skeptical of that.

sourdecor2• 15 days ago

I think it is weird that the recent breakthroughs in sodium batteries have come from China; I would have assumed they would want to keep everyone reliant on their rare earth minerals.

somelamer567• 15 days ago

Not correct. Sodium-ion batteries were invented in the United States in the 1970s.

sourdecor2• 15 days ago

I didn’t say invented - I said recent breakthroughs.

soleveloper2• 15 days ago

It is time to standardize EV batteries like wheels: 5-10 mainstream types & competition on quality vs. price vs. range.

Regulator help is needed here.

superxpro12• 15 days ago

Regulations... in THIS economy and administration????

soleveloper2• 15 days ago

Well, the EU regulated USB-C and it affected the whole smartphones world.

scotty79• 15 days ago

Largest Chinese companies will define the standards.

ajb• 15 days ago

Historically, vehicles actually did have completely interchangable motive components. They were called horses.

It would have been difficult given the state of other technology at the time for the inventors of the internal combustion engine to have supplied it as a drop-in horse replacement for your carriage, but you could kind of imagine that working with current technology.

akramachamarei• 15 days ago

Regulator help is needed here.

I don't like the impulse to regulate, especially as a formative measure. Regulating new technology before industry has time to experiment seems like a recipe for high prices, few choices, and low competition.

eagerpace2• 15 days ago

There is no reason I can’t put a swimming pool size battery under my house. I don’t care what the energy density is, make it bulletproof and cheap and massive.

shadowpho• 15 days ago

Cost is a reason. You need to dig out that dirt (which is expensive), it needs supports, your house needs support around it/through it…

Making things bulletproof and massive runs opposite of cheap

stronglikedan2• 15 days ago

I figured they meant while building the house, which of course would cut costs by a lot if it were engineered for.

soco3• 15 days ago

Why under the house? It can sit under your yard, no need to bother with so many tons of construction concrete on top of it.

giwook3• 15 days ago

Not everyone has a yard lol

fl4regun• 15 days ago

I could imagine plants messing with it, unless you bury it really deep.

giwook3• 15 days ago

For some reason I wouldn't exactly feel safe knowing there is a huge battery under my house that may combust at any moment.

mschuster91• 15 days ago

That's the beauty with sodium ion batteries, they are generally considered to be even less flammable than already pretty safe LiFePO4.

ck23• 15 days ago

that might be a evolutionary step where you just pump in electrolyte under a housing into waterproof container and every 10 years just pump it out again for fresh electrolyte

doesn't burn like LiFePo4 so no fire risks, though I am not sure what a short-circuit would do in damage/danger

why even under a structure though, just do it like a septic tank?

coldtea4• 15 days ago

"There's no reason" just "make it safe and cheap in huge size".

Kind of like there's no reason we can't go to Mars for tourism. Just make it as convenient, safe, and cheap as a jet to London.

eagerpace2• 15 days ago

I failed to land my point, it’s that instead of chasing small and complex battery systems to put in cars, lower tech, bigger, less convenient battery tech of the pool-under-house scale, could be an incredible option. Stationary batteries don’t have the same constraints as the portable batteries we are familiar with from even before the lithium ion age.

proee• 15 days ago

I don't think swimming pool is the best size. Why not a hole that's a few meters in diameter but SUPER deep? So long as your water table is sufficiently deep. This way you can service it, should you need to remove/replace contents. If it's under your house - good luck with that.

poisonborz• 15 days ago

Oh look it's the quarterly "revolutionary battery tech incoming" article.

soco3• 15 days ago

With a small but significant difference: it's in production already.

znpy• 15 days ago

where can i buy one ?

dlcarrier• 15 days ago

CATL isn't the first to put sodium-ion batteries into production, but they are the first large established manufacturer to do so, so chances are they won't go bankrupt before production ramps up to general availability.

WarmWash2• 15 days ago

Something to be aware of, and this is still in flux as the market is so new, but when sodium-ion batteries that use Prussian Blue/Prussian white cathodes enter thermal-runaway (or catch fire for whatever other reason), they release hydrogen cyanide gas.

Obviously manufacturers are aware of this and other chemistries of sodium-ion exist, but when a market is new you can sometimes get all manner of competing tech floating around.

I have entertained the idea of being an early adopter for home battery storage, but learning this made me hold off until their was more info/you could be sure about what you were buying.

criticalfault• 15 days ago

well, this doesn't sound good.

what cathode material is used as an alternative to not make home battery a chemical weapon in disguise?

3eb7988a16633• 15 days ago

Lithium batteries will also produce HCN in a fire. I believe sodium batteries actually produce less than lithium, but I do not have a primary source handy.

mrpotato• 14 days ago

I was under the impression that the sodium-ion batteries weren't dense enough to put into cars.

Sodium-ion "salt" batteries will revolutionize electric-vehicle and grid storage

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