The Car That Watches You Back: The Advertising Infrastructure of Modern Cars

https://nobodyaskedforthis.lol/posts/connected-car/

by cadito • 3 months ago

125 111 3 months ago

cadito• 3 months ago

The transition started with drive-by-wire and the CAN bus, but the moment they added cellular modems, the dashboard became a platform. Automakers are currently running the exact same programmatic targeting logic as web publishers and in-store retail networks. The only difference is they conveniently left out all the consent infrastructure we forced onto the web.

Tried to look at the actual ad-tech and architecture driving this rather than just doing another "touchscreens are bad" rant.

dzhiurgis• 3 months ago

Cybercab has electric brakes.

gib444• 3 months ago

The only difference is they conveniently left out all the consent infrastructure we forced onto the web.

This obviously needs fixing !

The only way to do it is to force you to click "Refuse" or "Agree" each and every time you start the car and to not let you drive until you click an option.

This will be a massive win for consumers.

downrightmike• 3 months ago

$60k min, 80+month loans, Insurance++, and you are still the product. So much for the freedom of the open road.

CalRobert3• 3 months ago

I do love my electric cargo bike…

parlortricks• 3 months ago

Cargo cult represent! How good are they, aye. I bought one 2 months ago, had it for 2 weeks and already done 200+kms on it, and that has saved me $60 in fuel so far. It is great for getting around and grabbing shopping last minute, going to work and just feeling more connected and happy.

youniverse• 3 months ago

At least Tesla is doing something right with direct sales and no suffering through a dealership just adding on cost.

hamandcheese• 3 months ago

Tesla is doing something right

Yes, capturing more shareholder value is a virtue.

BobaFloutist• 3 months ago

More importantly, so much for "If you're not paying, you're the product."

I mean I guess it's still true, but the inverse sure isn't.

VladVladikoff• 3 months ago

Awful writing. Cant stand that LLM generated drivel. Ruins it for me.

On the topic however I do wish there was a fully disconnected modern car. Maybe a Corolla with base trim has no starlink?

helterskelter2• 3 months ago

I know you can yank the modem out of a SuperDuty. Say what you will about them, they're work-oriented despite the luxury packages available and don't force you into being treated like the product -- Ford will track your location if you don't pull the modem, but at least it isn't necessary for the ICU and it doesn't nag you about the anything being disconnected. Fuel prices and gas economy are another issue...

(You may be able to do this with other Ford models)

helterskelter2• 3 months ago

Sorry, I meant ECU not ICU.

sandworm101• 3 months ago

Motorcycles are the last refuge of vehicle privacy. No (japanese) sportbike manufacturer would dare track customer activity. They really do not want to know how thier customers use thier products.

kQq9oHeAz6wLLS• 3 months ago

Plausible deniability

mmooss3• 3 months ago

What are the options for cars that don't track you? For example, new cars that don't include tracking, cars old enough to not have it, cars that can be modified (e.g., parts disconnected, software updated) to stop it, etc.

culi• 3 months ago

Great question. It feels like there's no real options here except buying older cars. Mozilla did a review and every brand they looked at flunked

https://www.mozillafoundation.org/en/blog/privacy-nightmare-...

The "least creepy" were Renault and Dacia and the "most creepy" were Nissan and Buick.

Apparently there's tools like Privacy4Cars that could help you delete your car. Based on their website, it seems their primary customer is enterprise

https://privacy4cars.com/

charcircuit2• 3 months ago

This Mozilla report is low quality and treats legal boilerplate as proof of them spying. It says a car is snooping on you via its microphone even if that microphone is purely used for support Bluetooth calls.

layoric• 3 months ago

A 90s Camry, Corolla, or Civic seems to have become the peak minimalist car. Shame we will never likely see an EV equivalent focused on utility and cost efficiency without all the bloat. I don’t think there is a good option sadly, any ICE car will eventually just become unmaintainable, and I can’t see a path to EVs that are just cars and don’t come with all this tracking.. hope to be proved wrong..

manyatoms2• 3 months ago

https://slate.auto

teh_infallible• 3 months ago

I’m hoping the new Slate electric cars don’t have this.

beAbU2• 3 months ago

Boy do I have a bridge to sell you.

ehnto• 3 months ago

It's easy for me to say because I don't mind old cars, but you really don't have to go that old to find something without ad-tech or tracking. You can have a completely acceptable experience in say a 2015 Toyota Camry or Crown or whatever equivalent you get in your country, with lane assist and excellent safety, but no phoning home.

The answer really depends on how much you don't want to be tracked, is it a big concern worth a lot of effort and compromise, or do you just kinda wish it wasn't happening?

If the former, there are plenty of vehicles to choose from the relatively recent past. I haven't looked into it but I imagine a lot of cars could have their phoning home disabled too, and it'd be surprising if all of these cars will be paying for an internet connection/SIM for decades to come so eventually the modern ones will fall off the net anyway.

unethical_ban• 3 months ago

The one with a fuse on the modem circuit, no?

ItsBob• 3 months ago

In the UK, any car that used a 3G modem is fine now: we have no 3G networks here any more.

GJim2• 3 months ago

Ummmm

Unlike the Americans, we have the GDPR. No UK/EU car is tracking you or gathering personal data from you without opt-in consent, which you can choose not to give.

(And before somebody starts ranting, the eCall 112 system doesn't track you willy nilly)

idatum• 2 months ago

My 2016 Golf GTI also lost its 3G modem service in the US. Perfect.

Peanuts992• 3 months ago

I have a Polestar with a big touch screen on the dash. You can disconnect the cellular module in about a minute and everything still works fine. There are many such vehicles, I think this story is a little overblown.

fiatpandas• 3 months ago

An interesting late stage capitalism ad hack I’ve seen in cars : OTA digital radio transmits track metadata like artist, title, and album artwork. I’ve seen some stations transmit tiny square ads in place of album artwork, even while the song is playing.

torginus2• 3 months ago

Fun fact: I remember encountering the term 'late stage capitalism' while reading some William Gibson novel, I think it was Burning Chrome, which was written in the early 80s.

dackdel• 3 months ago

a fully disconnected car that does not report back to its mother ship. does. not. exist. only other option is to buy a car old enough that does not have it. also if you didn't bring this up most north americans would be blissfully unaware, as long as the car has a good cup holder.

defrost• 3 months ago

'course it does .. any custom build shop will leave such things out on request, a great many don't even add in remote networking to begin with.

eg: https://www.okaaustralia.com/

tardedmeme• 3 months ago

that's illegal in the EU, the car is mandated to be able to call 112 automatically, therefore it must have a cellphone in it

dwedge3• 3 months ago

as long as the car has a good cup holder.

The lack of a cup holder is the only thing I would change about my '98 Toyota MR2

dmitrygr• 3 months ago

replacing the antenna with a 50-ohm resistor works very well. The car thinks it is out of cell reception and continues to work. No manufacturer would dare have their cars stop working merely due to it being in Montana (indistinguishable from having no cell antenna/reception).

jmward014• 3 months ago

This one issue, privacy, has stopped me from buying a new car. It is stopping me from even buying a used one since it is hard to figure out how far back you need to go to be rid of these things. Screaming at the wind though isn't helping. We need actual real options. I will buy something that it privacy aware. This is YC. Someone, build the startup that sells that and you have my money.

CalRobert3• 3 months ago

Slate maybe?

jmward014• 3 months ago

So far I have seen slate position itself as stripped down, but the thing I haven't seen is that they will be privacy aware. These are two totally different things. I want a simple but functional vehicle which does mean a comfortable vehicle that has reasonable features, but the honest truth is most features I don't want are purely because I want to be privacy aware. I don't want built in maps because I know they will connect and sell my location. I don't want and 'on-star' like feature because I know (for a fact with on-star) they will sell my data to insurance companies (actual harm to me will happen in other words). I don't want anything connectable to an app because I know that means their servers are constantly in control of my vehicle. I have 0 trust so I want a vehicle with one critical feature: no sim. If you can build a car without a sim I will buy it. If it has a sim I will avoid it until I have no actual other choice.

beAbU2• 3 months ago

Slate doesn't exist yet. So until that happens, we should bot include it in converstions like this.

everyone2• 3 months ago

Solution: Get a modern car but simply build a Faraday cage around it, like those anti-drone "cope cages" you see on Russian tanks.

genewitch3• 3 months ago

cope cages look like hardware fence (like chicken wire but welded, pig fence, sheep fence, goat fence are closer.)

However, the US already put fencing around fighting vehicles, specifically the Bradley, where the fence was essentially "chain link fencing".

I'm not entirely sure i buy that the cope cage stops drones; but the chain link fence absolutely stops RPGs from exploding by severing the wire that runs on the outside from the tip to the explosive.

nerdsniper• 3 months ago

I believe faraday cages need to be grounded. I'm not sure what the resistivity of rolling rubber tires are.

2III72• 3 months ago

Still driving my 2014 Golf mk7. No ads, physical buttons, adaptive cruise, frontal collision avoidance, great reliability. Not planning an upgrade any time soon.

kakacik• 3 months ago

2014 BMW 5 series F11, still nothing just good dumb assistants (like laser HUD so I never ever get speeding tickets) and bad dumb ones which can be turned off (keeping lane doesn't work at all in any construction zone and interfering with driving is a big nono).

The way they are set up together makes driving much more pleasant (heck its BMW so perfect balance and great handling at curves) and much less tiring for long haul (do from time to time 1500km 16h single day push). Was worried about automatic transmission but in their implementation its a joy and a beast in Sports mode, again less mental burden.

I really, really don't want anything more in the car, until we have 100% FSD where I can sleep or watch movies. There is no space between those, not for me.

arkadiyt2• 3 months ago

I bought a 2024 RAV4 Hybrid and

1) physically removed the modem (the "DCM") and

2) disconnected the GPS antenna from the head unit

Took a little research but was still an approachable project

duskdozer4• 3 months ago

What still functions and what broke?

lynx973• 3 months ago

Given that some countries already move on legislation for government remote control of cars, I wonder how long this method will be actually legal.

michaelt2• 3 months ago

Motorbikes are available without any of this tech, if you want something made this year without the need to remove any components.

Sure, there's an elevated risk of death, but you've got to balance that against the fact bike go vroom vroom.

lionkor3• 3 months ago

I swear there is a psyop to get me to buy a very fast motorcycle, like, me specifically.

I do want one, and I'm not going to get one! I have self control. Don't look at my Ebay notifications.

trinix912• 3 months ago

Maybe if you live in an area with a warm and dry climate. Otherwise you're out of luck half the year unless you want to risk it daily on icy or wet roads.

hdgvhicv• 3 months ago

This is YC

The home of the advertising and data broker industry.

m4ck_• 3 months ago

What Edison motors is trying to do with their conversion kits is the solution for us privacy-aware folks, I think. If they, or someone, manage to bring hybrid/electric conversion kits to the market, we'll have an option that's slightly better than hoping parts stay available for older cars.

mkatx• 3 months ago

Just did a quick search.. dunno the vid quality, but the point being "'I Remove This Mysterious Tiny Chip Before Using The Phone!' Edward Snowden"

https://www.bitchute.com/video/QqQmHy6aqlLe/

I'm not sure how realistic this is, but conversations like this always remind me of this procedure.

Edit: maybe should have responded to the OP directly.

KetoManx64• 3 months ago

I bought a 2025 Ford Maverick and pulled the fuse for the telematics unit, which also disconnects the modem. It disables the OTA updates, remote start which Ford does through a phone app (you can buy a third party keyfob attachment for $100 to do remote start easily enough), and emergency calls through the head unit. None of the features that I hugely care about. Android Auto works without issue and that's all I need the unit for.

everyone2• 3 months ago

I guess just stick to cars from mid 2000's and older.

There is another issue with newer cars too, They have extremely loose piston rings, after X thousand miles they burn as much oil as a 2 stroke.

https://youtu.be/Ft12aZffCEg?si=uYlRABoqweTOKaoi

incoren3• 3 months ago

The newest car I own is 14 years old, and the next one I buy will have a carburetor.

And you better believe I will ride around on a fucking HORSE before I put up with ads on my dashboard. Screw that noise.

lionkor3• 3 months ago

E-Bike, motorcycle, older cars, and once all of those aren't an option anymore, we're going to start stripping cars down.

iugtmkbdfil834• 3 months ago

Dunno man. I am inclined to do it and maybe even able to, but I will admit that there is some hesitation in messing too hard with internals of a rather expensive toy. Part of me is really hoping custom EV kits come here faster so that I can finally have proper EV vette in 90s body.

Peanuts992• 3 months ago

Think you're greatly underestimated how unreliable carburetors can be.

rozap• 3 months ago

Diabolical devices. Anything between 1990-2015 is sort of the gold era of cars. A modern engine swap was the best thing I did for a number of my vehicles. And there are FOSS ECUs that are extremely capable.

Lio4• 3 months ago

It would be a great idea for a website to sell the latest versions of cars, used or new, that didn’t feature enshitification tech.

Maybe it’s not a huge market but I bet there is some market still for a quality experience.

dotancohen2• 3 months ago

That sounds like a lot of liability. For one thing, it almost certainly means that the vehicle is being sold without the manufacturers warranty. It also might mean that the manufacturern won't even support the vehicle for service. And finally, by disabling OTA updates there could be safety implications.

Lio4• 3 months ago

Who said anything about disabling or modifying anything?

You just look for older car models that don’t snoop.

Cars made before about 2017 for example.

lynx973• 3 months ago

Its small, but there remains the hope that progressive enshittification of cars might convince a few people not to own one. Cities with useful public transport infrastructure already see a trend of young people not owning a car, which is good.

dwedge3• 3 months ago

My city recently closed a load of employee parking, extended the paid parking zone, and simultaneously reduced the time covered by a bus ticket by 25% and displays adverts on the screens inside buses.

lynx973• 3 months ago

Democracy fans would say: "All you have to do is to thank them when the next vote comes up."

P.S.: I can't even imagine how much of a distraction ads in public spaces must be. I am blind. While that is clearly a disability, whenever I read things like what you just posted, I am reminded how blessed I am. Maybe there will be a time when 100% blindness is actually an advantage?

Ozzie_osman• 3 months ago

Surprised to see no mention of Chinese cars, which are currently taking over the rest of the globe (EVs, REVs, hybrids). For half the price of a US or European car, you get a car with a lot more bells and whistles, which of course, include multiple large screens inside, software that controls everything (seat positions, lights, etc), LED matrix lighting on the front, and an app to control the car remotely.

thenthenthen• 3 months ago

Not to mention the video advertisements sometimes on top (outside), in the rear window or on small screens facing the passengers (havent spotted a camera in those, but that seems just a matter of time). Most drivers also have dashcams.

dwedge3• 3 months ago

It made me laugh that a site "nobodyaskedforthis.lol" specifically about an aversion to modern tech (tracking, advertising) was written by an LLM

smilespray• 3 months ago

Where does it say it was written by an LLM?

This felt like human writing to me. I could be wrong, of course.

skiing_crawling2• 3 months ago

Ive been screaming this since touch screens in cars started catching on. We are surely beyond believing automation is done for convenience and betterment of our lifestyles at this point. It's all to create more time and a new surface for us to serve ads on. The average consumer is completely infatuated with the idea of their car being a doom scrolling device, so we get dragged further into hell.

red-iron-pine2• 3 months ago

The average consumer is completely infatuated with the idea of their car being a doom scrolling device, so we get dragged further into hell.

bollocks. all available research suggests the average person strongly prefers manual controls and buttons and is not into touchscreens and the like.

and none of those discussions precludes auto manufacturers from just putting mics in the car -- even with 95% old school buttons they could just wire it up to listen to you and pipe it out to a tiny LTE transmitter.

skiing_crawling2• 3 months ago

The research is wrong because people are buying the iPad on dash cars. The data collection, sampling, or methodology of the research presents a different result than the market reality of what people actually bought with their money.

The Car That Watches You Back: The Advertising Infrastructure of Modern Cars

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