‘Energy independence feels practical’: Europeans building mini solar farms

https://www.euronews.com/2026/03/26/suddenly-energy-independence-feels-practical-europeans-are-building-mini-solar-farms-at-ho

by vrganj • 4 months ago

354 333 4 months ago

euronews.com

theshrike794• 4 months ago

Distributed energy production / storage is the key for resiliency in the future.

Every solar farm doesn't need to be China Size - it doesn't even need to be a "farm", just put them on roofs.

And don't let perfect be the enemy of good. Yes there are times when solar doesn't produce energy, but there are also times where it OVERproduces.

friendzis2• 4 months ago

And don't let perfect be the enemy of good. Yes there are times when solar doesn't produce energy, but there are also times where it OVERproduces.

When solar OVERproduces you have to literally pay someone to consume that energy, most probably wind farms, which could be producing energy instead. So you pay actually twice. When the solar underproduces, you need to bring in alternative sources, but those now have to cover all their fixed costs and generate return on investment over this limited timeframe, which means the actual backup prices hit stratospheric levels.

What's the actual cost of solar with actual net-billing?

raverbashing2• 4 months ago

"If you find dollar bills on the ground you need to pay someone to collect it as litter"

Charge batteries, do electrolysis, or a multitude of other uses (I know some companies do that already)

RealityVoid2• 4 months ago

When solar OVERproduces you have to literally pay someone to consume that energy, most probably wind farms, which could be producing energy instead.

You don't have to do this with solar, you can just disconnect the panel and have it go a bit hotter. For producers that have a long-ish bringup time, yes, you might need to do this at time.

1970-01-013• 4 months ago

you have to literally pay someone to consume that energy,

Here's the thing. That's a rule and not a technical problem. Absolutely no reason to do this other than rules and regulations.

toomuchtodo• 4 months ago

Inverters can be configured with export limits to limit, or entirely halt, energy exports based on market or grid signals. Term of art is "curtailment."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtailment_(electricity)

mr_mitm• 4 months ago

When solar OVERproduces you have to literally pay someone to consume that energy,

Can't we just throttle the solar panel? In a worst case, you just pull the plug. It's not like a nuclear power plant which needs to be shut down carefully, or am I misunderstanding something?

pstuart• 4 months ago

When there's an OVERproduction of energy, that really means there's an UNDER-availability of storage. Battery tech continues it's march towards cheaper prices, and alternatives such as thermal storage are making inroads as well.

It borders on criminal to have abundant energy production be disservice.

Rebelgecko• 4 months ago

Cheap home solar installations usually have a disconnect- do they not use those in larger scale installs?

I'm also surprised they aren't using batteries to capture overproduction. They've been clutch in the US, and we're not exactly pushing the envelope of green energy nowadays

horsawlarway2• 4 months ago

Home installations just cut it off. In both of these cases.

I did my own battery backed installation. When I'm underproducing I can shed load (I turn off my AC - almost always that's enough, and it's automated by relay). When I'm overproducing (ex - my battery is full and my load is still not enough to consume input) I just don't let the panels generate more current than I can consume.

Managing grid scale power is different concern, and not particularly relevant to small household generation. Especially not relevant in the 800W category for "balcony solar" (which is much smaller than what I'm working with).

Solar is fucking coming, whether you continue to shove head into the ground or not.

It's just way more affordable. Getting easily more affordable as batteries continue to improve.

I honestly doubt I'll still be connected to a local utility grid for electric 10 years from now, and I live in a region of the US that has considerably cheaper grid power than most areas.

MagicMoonlight• 4 months ago

No you don’t, you could just ground it. Paying them is a choice.

teamonkey2• 4 months ago

This is not how curtailment works.

Curtailment is when an energy company has successfully bid on delivering electricity for the next block of time (an hour, for example) but it can’t provide that agreed amount of power because it would overload the grid. There are various reasons why that would happen: faults and unexpected lack of demand, for example. In that case the company is paid for the energy it was contracted to deliver, only for that period of time, even though it did not provide power.

It is wrong to say that overproducers HAVE to be paid. They don’t. They only have to be paid if there was an agreement to buy that power but for whatever reason the grid can’t take it. Normally if there is a generation surplus, the cheapest companies will win the bid to provide power and the others will simply not be paid.

theshrike794• 4 months ago

Here in Finland electricity prices can drop to under 1c/kWh due to renewables, basically every time it's sunny and/or windy electricity is practically free (the transfer costs are static though).

A few times the price has actually been negative, people got paid for using electricity due to overproduction =)

mbgerring6• 4 months ago

There will be connected batteries in every home solving this problem faster than the fossil fuel lobby can come up with a new talking point about why it’ll never work.

te_chris• 4 months ago

Wild that you're getting downvoted for saying something so obvious. Weird.

9wzYQbTYsAIc2• 4 months ago

Politics of solar, at work

izacus2• 4 months ago

That's the same kind of problem solving that thought making self driving Teslas is the solution for infrastructure problems.

mbgerring6• 4 months ago

Not weird if you’ve been participating in discussions on clean energy since the beginning of this century.

The inevitability of the energy transition has been obvious for so long, and even when it’s done there will be cranks insisting that it’ll never work.

hn_throwaway_99• 4 months ago

I didn't downvote them, and I don't really disagree with them (that much). But I do disagree with the idea that what they're saying is "something so obvious".

I think the evidence is overwhelming that renewables plus storage will provide the bulk of our energy needs, or at least electricity needs, in the very near future. But I think the idea that it will be some sort of libertarian/individualistic utopia if we're all generating our own power and living off grid is a fallacy. This sort of widespread "off grid" living (beyond a small number of ideologues/enthusiasts) is what you only see essentially in failed states, where communal services are unreliable and the social contract is so frayed that people need to inefficiently generate their own power. One can argue the US and other Western countries are headed that way, but I don't think that's "obvious" or necessarily a good thing.

A much more "obvious" solution IMO is to invest in efficient, grid-scale renewable generation combined with robust storage tiers, as well us long overdue updates to the grid.

And to emphasize, because I'm sure it will get lost in translation, I'm in no way saying people shouldn't be self-sufficient or install rooftop solar if they want to. What I am saying is that widespread rooftop solar as the "of course that's the right answer" endgame of renewables deployment is in no way obvious, inevitable or even desirable.

PowerElectronix6• 4 months ago

I'm every day more convinced that the only reasonable future of energy production is distributed solar and storage with microgrids at the neighbourhood level or so.

Anything bigger in scale is prone to being shittified to the limit by public entities.

vkou• 4 months ago

I can tell you've never dealt with an HOA or Strata before. Neighbourhood-level organizations of busybodies are way ahead of everyone else on winning the race to shittification.

Putting them in charge of your electricity won't be all sunshine and rainbows.

noosphr3• 4 months ago

We had this in the 19th century. We moved to a centralised grid because when you don't use it to rent seek it is vastly more efficient.

hapticmonkey• 4 months ago

Rooftop solar is incredibly popular here in Australia. I think it’s something like 33% of houses have it. We also have a great climate for it.

I have solar on my house and am seeing around 50% self sufficiency overall. Of course with this much saturation, the rate you get paid for feeding back to the grid is quickly dropping to zero. So self use is the game now.

The problem is now shifting to home batteries and storage. Because peak power household use times are in the evening when the sun is not shining.

KennyBlanken• 4 months ago

We also have a great climate for it.

Back when solar was much, much more expensive this sort of thing mattered. Now the panels have plunged in price so much, you just deploy more panels (cost of install and other central stuff is the same) and/or accept the longer payback period.

Cold climates do better than one might expect because the colder a solar panel is, the better it works.

XorNot2• 4 months ago

Conversely prices with rebates have gotten very cheap recently.

I'm getting a 48kwh battery put in with a 3 phase inverter for $6500 AUD in like a week.

push0ret• 4 months ago

If we just hadn't centralized control of the inverters to a few (chinese) companies... Great read on the risks to our power infrastructure from remote controlled solar inverters: https://berthub.eu/articles/posts/the-gigantic-unregulated-p...

derelicta• 4 months ago

A shame local companies where I am from have year long backlogs.

pjc5012• 4 months ago

The "balcony solar" system is going to be available in Lidl for no-approval self-install. Limited to 800W.

jandrese2• 4 months ago

Depends on your locality. The Fossil fuel industry is lobbying hard against this and is successful in some places.

cjrp• 4 months ago

The UK previously didn't allow small plug in solar panels (the kind that you just plug in to a mains socket) due to, I believe, safety reasons. This has changed within the last few days https://energysavingtrust.org.uk/solar-roadmap/

mytailorisrich14• 4 months ago

It hasn't changed... yet. The media noise is because the government has announced that they were reviewing current rules with the aim of allowing "balcony solar" by the end of the year.

lazyasciiart• 4 months ago

I believe it’s only legal in Utah so far in the US: they legislated it last year, and apparently half the country is expected to pass a copy-paste version in their next sessions

TYPE_FASTER• 4 months ago

Current state by state status (not my site): https://pluginsolarusa.com

t0mas88• 4 months ago

There is a real safety issue with plug-in solar panels and plug-in batteries. Things go wrong if other loads are on the same circuit, which is almost unavoidable with a plug-in system.

Consider a circuit in a home, designed to carry 16A like a common EU/UK circuit, protected by a 16A breaker. Then plug in solar or a battery that delivers just a small 10A. Now in case some other thing on that circuit draws 26A, the breaker doesn't stop it and the circuit is overloaded.

If that same solar was installed as a fixed setup on its own circuit with no other loads on it, it would be safe and protected by the 16A breaker in the switchboard. It's the combination with other loads that causes issues.

jamescrowley2• 4 months ago

My understanding is that is why they are limiting to 800w (~4A) at least in the UK's BS 7671 Amendment, which they consider well within the designed safety margins.

euroderf• 4 months ago

So the danger comes when you plug the solar into a wall socket but there are other devices connected to the same fuse of circuit breaker. So...

Instead of the solar having a plug that goes into a wall socket, why not have a plug on it that screws directly into the fusebox ? Then you know that it is the ONLY device on the circuit.

Moldoteck3• 4 months ago

Plugin solar doesn't make much impact anyway even in Germany because of shades/angles and most of the time- no storage. Rooftop is another discussion

adrianN7• 4 months ago

My balcony solar produced an average of 5kWh per day in the last month. That is about as much as I consume.

metalman• 4 months ago

to answer the first question in the article

"Many consumers want to know how long it will take them to make back the upfront costs of solar"

my answer is that the payback is imediate, right from the first moment watching as energy is generated out of thin air, and the sudden relief from getting off the energy angst missery-go-round, and the sheer borring inertness of solar pv as it does the thing with zero detectable effort, is gratifying and relaxing in a way that money never gives.

I will add that solar pv is increadably robust, and damage tollerant as well, you can drive a claw hammer through a panel, and while it does not improve the performance, the degradation is actualy not that much, and it will continue to function for years

9wzYQbTYsAIc2• 4 months ago

The mindset shift towards “how many hours of computer usage did that one panel enable” is like the mindset shift from learning calculus, in some ways. Not quite a paradigm shift, but you gain a new appreciation for conservation of use when it’s a difference between choice of $/kW/hr and “wow, the panel powered that for most of the day”.

At the same time, many people will just use a solar calculator or watch or yard lights etc, oblivious to it all.

Show people a solar powered laptop, a solar powered phone, or a solar powered tablet, then they will be impressed.

Remember the craze about solar powered car competitions?

permacompute + solar would make for quite the $100 laptop competition.

zowie_howie• 4 months ago

Is it immediate? Sure, there is satisfaction that you are using 'free' electricity. But it does have an upfront cost. I calculated that it would take over 11 years to recoup the investment based on our current usage. Given we already get cheap night-time rates to charge the car and run appliances, it is hard to justify.

Like many UK houses, we have gas central heating too. I guess if we had a battery too (more investment) then we could switch to using electric oil-filled radiators, though they would not heat the whole house. And we could install a hot water tank.

I guess for new builds there is a real opportunity, but for an existing household I'm struggling to see how it works - and I want it to!

pjc5012• 4 months ago

I don't think it ever makes sense to switch to electric radiators. It might make sense to switch to a heatpump, but you need to avoid being hugely overcharged by the installers and there are flow issues if you have 8mm piping.

This ROI calculator looks reasonable: https://ukcalculator.com/solar-panel-roi-calculator.html - note that it subtracts the install cost for you, so any case where the final figure is positive is profitable. But of course that depends on whether grid prices go up or down in the next decade ...

ZeroGravitas5• 4 months ago

Are you talking about rooftop solar?

For an 800W balcony system your background house usage is likely to be enough to self consume most of it.

You'd wouldn't be able to run even a small oil heater except maybe in peak summer.

It's a good match for working from home as it's a small amount of power spread over daylight hours.

tencentshill• 4 months ago

Ideally, the problem will solve itself. People will get angry with increased energy prices, and elect politicians who promise to bring them down (The most effective and visible way being home solar subsidies, while reducing gas/coal).

skippyboxedhero2• 4 months ago

UK also has massive subsidies. I know someone who got a government subsidy, the company didn't complete the job, got paid for the government for the full job, and they calculated the payback was 50+ years.

At this point, I do not understand how anyone can possibly believe that the people advocating for this stuff are thinking in terms of economic (as opposed to political or social) returns. This stuff makes no economic sense and is already bankrupting the country.

Also, there is a legal requirement for new builds to have this now, this is with a massive shortage of housing, with a government that is a government of the "people" but has just put out the same housing targets as the last one and is running 75% behind annually. The scale of subsidies being given to these industries is probably tens of billions, green energy subsidies are now 5x larger than industry profits...this makes no sense, even with sky-high electricity prices (to be clear, it is consumers who are ultimately paying for this...we pay higher prices so that a lawyer somewhere can prattle on about leading a "green revolution" that is lining the pockets of donors).

rdtsc• 4 months ago

> "Many consumers want to know how long it will take them to make back the upfront costs of solar"
my answer is that the payback is imediate,

So if I pay $35k for an install, I get a $35k check the first time I connect it to the grid? Pretty sure it doesn't work that way. But it would be a nice subsidy from the government if they were really motivated.

I guess you're saying you start to feel good and validated to have spent the money by seeing _some_ savings every billing period. It's hard to argue with feelings of course, but that's not not the original concern. People want to know how long is it going to take: 1, 5, 10 years or ... never (if panels degrade or break before it will never pay off) to pay off their investment.

phyzome2• 4 months ago

From the article:

According to Solar Power Europe, it takes an average of two to six years to recoup the cost of the system, depending on what you paid for it, its size and where you mount it.

And then it just keeps working for decades. There's degradation, but even after 25 years I believe it's down to maybe 85% output, which is still huge for something with essentially no operating costs.

jrmg• 4 months ago

We just got solar panels and a battery installed on our house. I try to be hard-headed about the economics when planning, but I have to say the _experience_ of having done it is exactly as you describe.

The other thing it made me is angry at the political morass that these things seem to be in.

At a technical level I understand the ‘base load’ arguments, but we are throwing away _so much energy_ that’s just there for the taking by not having these everywhere. On most days, our house (in Western North Carolina) gets enough energy from the sun that we net-export to the grid - and we have an EV! There’s just no need for the massive amounts of carbon we are spewing into the air - the energy is just falling onto us!

In the future, providing we’re still around, we’ll look back at a time when we could’ve been getting all our energy needs from just the sun (and wind etc.) and shake our heads in disbelief at those who fought against the idea that we should even think about efficiently using it so viscerally.

testing223215• 4 months ago

I’m in Canada and for 8 months of the year our residential solar net exports to the grid.

Over 30 years we’ll profit ~$25k after spending zero.

It’s crazy how my energy just hits the ground everyday.

mbgerring6• 4 months ago

It’s already possible for consumers to know that, I worked on the software that powers the tools that tell US consumers this at Genability ca 2015.

As far as I know, they never cracked the European market, so if you’re interested in working on that, I’m currently available for hire! Info in profile :)

dust423• 4 months ago

I once read an article that in Berlin the sewage system is flushed with fresh water because too many people have installed water saving toilet flushers. So plenty of people bought these water savers and now the price of water has gone up because the water that is directly flushed needs to be paid too.

The 'balcony power stations' are the same thing. They get subsidised, and you even get a fixed kWh price when pushing into the grid.

The problem is that in the end it will become more expensive for everybody because at times you have a surplus driving the whole sale electricity prices into the negative while still paying fixed prices for injection into the grid.

To make this economically viable, you have to have everyone paying spot prices. Everything else is just green ideology driven inefficiency.

Just to make it clear, I think renewables are an important option for the future. But to make them a viable option of the electricity energy mix, supply and demand, storage and grid capacity need to be taken into account.

Last not least, there is plenty of low hanging fruit to drive CO2 emissions down: drive up the truck tolls. Currently you have potatoes farmed in Germany, driven to Poland to get washed, transported to Italy to be converted to french fries and transferred back to Germany into the super markets.

Same goes for home office, during Covid it was possible for many workers to continue with their work. Does an accountant need to drive to an office every day? Nope. How many business trips could be replaced by a video call?

If the CO2 emissions problem is to be solved rather sooner than later, the money has to be spend efficiently as there isn't enough of it.

watwut• 4 months ago

I once read an article that in Berlin the sewage system is flushed with fresh water because too many people have installed water saving toilet flushers. So plenty of people bought these water savers and now the price of water has gone up because the water that is directly flushed needs to be paid too.

What is this supposed to mean? You flush less water, therefore water price is more expensive, because flushed water needs to be paid too?

myrmidon4• 4 months ago

Presumably that the water bill (for tap water) was priced to cover both tap water provisioning and sewage works. But people using (free) rainwater to flush toilets ruined the pricing model, making the tap water price go up.

I honestly don't see the problem, it's probably still worth it (because society still needs to provide less tap water and saves there).

goodpoint• 4 months ago

The conclusion that saving water is greenwashing is just wrong.

coryrc• 4 months ago

GP is partly right. Most of the cost of sewers is fixed cost: employee salaries, building and maintaining X kilometers of sewers, etc. Some is variable: chemicals, but a small part.

If you, a single person, cut your water usage in half, you pay half as much. But if everybody uses half as much, the system still needs about the same amount of funding. So now you double the per-unit price, and everybody pays the same they were before spending money on water saving features. In this case, even if each person used half as much water, the total water needed isn't cut in half because the sewers need more water to function.

(Also, water isn't "used"; most of it's transported, cleaned, transported, dirtied, cleaned again, transported)

mytailorisrich14• 4 months ago

Perhaps that sewers need a certain volume of water flowing in order to function correctly. If that water does not come from toilet flushes, etc then they pump water into them to compensate.

Gibbon1• 4 months ago

I have the curse of having an mom who was a smart CPA.

All this stuff root top solar, plug in solar costs at least twice what utility solar. And only makes sense when you have messed up rate setting schemes that enable arbitrage.

But it's not what you want if you want to get the most GW connected as fast as possible.

Like the requirements that new houses have roof top solar. You could get twice as much if you just invested the money in a conventional solar farm.

pjc5012• 4 months ago

Like the requirements that new houses have roof top solar.

As a CPA child, you should understand that the same money is very different when it comes out of a different account.

(everyone watches two critical numbers, income tax and government deficit, so the #1 priority is to hide capital spending somewhere else, in this case by moving it to buyers of new homes)

leoedin• 4 months ago

But it's not what you want if you want to get the most GW connected as fast as possible.

I agree with rooftop residential solar. The cost per kW is high, each site is fiddly and requires far more labour and paperwork than the extra cost of adding 4kW of solar panels to a large grid scale one.

But plug-in solar bypasses most of that. The cost to the government to allow someone to buy and install a panel on their balcony is effectively nothing. A single 800W panel is not interesting, but the aggregate effect of 10% of households buying an 800W panel at the local shop is an extra 12% of installed solar capacity.

Admittedly that's less than the annual growth rate right now. But it's also almost free.

ZeroGravitas5• 4 months ago

US costs for rooftop solar (at build time or retrofit) are misleadingly high.

In the EU build time solar roofs overlaps with utility costs but up to 1.5x , and retrofit is say 2x.

To give context. In the EU adding solar to new homes is cost competitive with running existing(!) nuclear plants. In the US only utility scale is competitive with that.

Retrofit rooftop solar is about the same as new nuclear in the US, retrofit is 25% cheaper than new nuclear in the EU.

pjc5012• 4 months ago

They get subsidised, and you even get a fixed kWh price when pushing into the grid

Neither of these is going to be true for the UK balcony scheme (you can't get export generation pricing unless it's an MCS-certified install).

drive up the truck tolls.

The price of diesel is going to do this anyway very soon.

vrganj3• 4 months ago

Thinking of this in terms of markets is the real ideologically driven inefficiency.

dust423• 4 months ago

You can spend every euro or dollar only once. If you consider CO2 emissions a critical problem, then you should spend every single dollar as efficiently as possible. Obviously independence of fossil fuels has a value too, as the current situation in the middle east shows.

It would make much more sense to import (renewable) electricity from Spain to Germany than strawberries.

tjansen2• 4 months ago

As soon as everybody is paying spot prices, balcony power stations are not economically viable anymore. Even today, on a sunny day, spot prices for electricity are either very low or even negative. The more solar power is available, the lower these prices will be. So your balcony power station is replacing electricity you could get for free anyway. At night, when you are not producing electricity, you still need to buy the expensive electricity from fossil plants.

The reason why personal solar installations are profitable is that you can buy electricity for fixed prices from your local power company. You pay the average of the vastly different low (or negative) prices during the day and the extremely expensive prices on windstill nights. Solar allows you to use your own electricity when the average is below spot prices, and get power for much less when the price you pay is cheaper than spot prices. It's like a state-approved scheme to play the market in the name of decarbonization while actually increasing everybody else's prices and possibly even CO2 emissions.

pjc5012• 4 months ago

spot prices for electricity

There are various good websites for showing the UK generation mix, but pricing seems less public. A lot seems to be done on day-ahead, which is pricing for the whole day not minute by minute. Is there a minute-by-minute ticker? Tariff?

(the reason I'm asking is that I'm skeptical as to how true this is for places that aren't California)

mytailorisrich14• 4 months ago

To me this illustrates that with renewables (solar and wind) the key is storage. You want to grab all you can during excess production/very low prices periods and then use that for the rest of the day.

You can do exactly that by buying battery packs but (1) they are more expensice pieces of kit than solar panels and (2) capacity and output of DYI/plug in systems is very limited.

A quick check online also says that (in the UK) peak spot prices are usually 7am-10am and 5pm-9pm, which are basically when demand picks up or hasn't dropped yet while solar panels are useless...

tpm• 4 months ago

As soon as everybody is paying spot prices

Which is never, because even then you are still paying some sort of taxes on top of the spot prices and also network fees.

The price of electricity from the network also has to include the price of delivery, while homemade electricity only has to recoup initial investment.

Of course this means given enough home installations (in places with enough sun) the price of electricity from the network will rise, more people will install their own stations, some will even disconnect, rinse and repeat. I read somewhere this exact situation is already playing out already in Pakistan.

vablings• 4 months ago

This is why smart meters are important to providers, they can more accurately model the spot pricing adjustments which means that you actually use LESS fossil fuels. Also most new meter installs support bi-directional metering

Xylakant• 4 months ago

The price of water has gone up for a multitude of factors. One of them is water savings in general, but not primarily because the sewage system requires regular flushes. The reason is that water gets paid per qubic meter and includes a fresh water and a waster water component. The assumption is that almost all fresh water you use ends up as waste water. Now, the grid has a very substantial fixed-price component that's largely independent from the actual current volume being used. Putting pipes in the ground and maintaining them there is an actual costly endeavour. If water use now drops, and the baseline cost remains stable, then it's entirely expected that the price per volume rises. It's simple math. The same baseline cost needs to be brought in via less volume.

This will also happen to people that use residential gas. As less and less people use residential gas, the maintenance of the gas network gets distributed among less and less customers.

The 'balcony power stations' are the same thing. They get subsidised, and you even get a fixed kWh price when pushing into the grid.

They are subsidized on purchase, but the price they get when pushing energy into the grid is by default fixed at 0. The network accepts the power, but there's no payment. It's also capped at 800W delivery, meaning that at peak power generation, you'd earn a whopping 5 cent an hour with the current subsidy for full scale solar power. So in practice, the only benefit owners have is that they draw less power from the net which is much more attractive because of the pricing structure. You can, optionally, register your balcony power station as a regular solar power plant, but then you're subject to a whole bunch of rules and regulations (for example you need a suitable elctricity meter etc.). This option is generally not attractive for such small power generations.

Fundamentally, though, the same issue as with the water and gas network exists with all localized (solar) power generation. If more and more people use the grid only as a backup, or for winter energy needs, then the overhead of maintaining the grid will have a larger cost contribution to the total cost of electricity.

phyzome2• 4 months ago

And exactly as soon as your prediction comes true, it will become obvious for people to buy battery banks that perform temporal arbitrage. Which will then mostly solve the issue.

pjc5012• 4 months ago

Fairly boilerplate article, but the bit that is news is the UK balcony solar permitting. Better longread: https://solarenergyconcepts.co.uk/post/plug-in-solar-uk/

Government press release with a long list of pull quotes: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-to-make-plug-i...

(I note that in the alternate universe where Ed Miliband became PM because he didn't eat a bacon sandwich, we could have had this a decade ago. It is embarrassing to be beaten on environmentalist regulatory efficiency by Germany)

mytailorisrich14• 4 months ago

I note that in the alternate universe where Ed Miliband became PM because he didn't eat a bacon sandwich, we could have had this a decade ago

I read what is happening in exactly the opposite way. To me it shows that Milliand and the government at large do very little with no strategic thinking and no plan (same as the guys before in fairness but this government was supposed to be soo different...) and, in this case, is only reacting in a panic after almost 2 years in office to the pressure of "doing something" because of the Iran war, while also being told (slight mitigating circumstances for Milliband) that it mustn't cost anything. I always picture scenes from The Thick of It/ In the Loop when I imagine how they come up with 'ideas'.

teamonkey2• 4 months ago

These policies were in their manifesto, they just take some time to enact, even with a majority government.

adjejmxbdjdn• 4 months ago

I find it fascinating how this comment comes up with a whole theory of what happened, along with implications about how the government, and Ed Miliband in particular, think and act, and it’s based entirely on just dreaming up what the facts are, when in reality the facts can be looked up trivially, including the fact that this was in the manifesto, or other facts that are known by anyone who has any knowledge about how govt (especially the UK govt that is designed to be conservative and slow moving) works.

Like you just invented a story and made massive implications based on the invented story, with absolutely no hesitation. And you’re probably in at least the 50th percentile of intelligence.

This is why we’re screwed.

ZeroGravitas5• 4 months ago

He also removed the effective ban on onshore wind construction that was introduced a month after he lost the election, restarting after a decade of lost opportunity.

This Trump-level idiocy that is just never mentioned, even as people blame the gas burned in england on windy days as a cost of wind curtailment, when the curtailment is more a like a third of the cost. Burning gas to power people who chose not to build turbines is the other 2/3rds.

In the alternate world that is tens of billions of gas costs avoided to date and tens of billions more in future.

mytailorisrich14• 4 months ago

At the same time they are banning wind turbines leaders (Chinese companies) from opening factories in the UK... [1][2]

[1] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c995xjxk97mo

[2] https://www.energyvoice.com/insights/energy-opinion/594763/m...

downrightmike• 4 months ago

WHY DO YOU HATE THE COAL BARONS SO MUCH? YOU'RE TAKING MONEY OUT OF THEIR MISTRESSES' MOUTHS

eigenspace• 4 months ago

I always blew my mind that people don't mention this more. The UK is blessed with some of the most plentiful and reliable wind resources on earth, and mediocre solar resources at best.

Banning onshore wind turbines was just insanity. Despite the insanity, the UK has made great steps with offshore wind, but offshore wind is expensive and has all sorts of accompanying headaches. Onshore is super cheap and quick to build per unit power by comparison.

Onshore wind turbines are going to be much more important to the future of UK energy independence than balcony solar.

oliwarner3• 4 months ago

British industry and standards bodies think this is an unsafe plan.

Of course they would because it's work being taken away from them but it would be allowing people to plug generators into ring finals with unidirectional breakers. It's not even guaranteed that the circuit is protected by anything newer than fuse wire or an MCB. No guaranteed earth leakage detection. No guaranteed surge protection. Relying on the cheapest inverters to sync frequency accurately. And

I have more faith in German standards and work ethic than our own.

formerly_proven4• 4 months ago

The situation in germany is essentially the same, but that's why net supply by these is limited to 800 W. I don't think anything changes w.r.t. earth leakage, why would the presence of the solar supply change anything from the RCD and fault point of views, respectively?

fnordpiglet• 4 months ago

I find it interesting because often the best way to achieve a safe building code is to learn by allowing with basic guard rails and iterating as things happen. This isn’t ideal for the rare individual impacted by the “things happening,” but collectively we refine and iterate. Our current standards weren’t arrived at by navel gazing - we got the codes we have by experience. It’s hard to realize that from the present that you can’t reasonably learn without doing and by constraining without learning prevents growth and learning.

labcomputer2• 4 months ago

“Unidirectional breakers” aren’t a thing for AC circuits.

password43212• 4 months ago

I am not very well versed on this topic but I believe the balcony solar products market one of their safety features as "anti-islanding protection". Personally I wonder what happens if multiple balcony solar systems are connected... can each still tell when the grid is down since the other power source is active?

https://www.digikey.com/en/articles/anti-islanding-and-smart...

eimrine• 4 months ago

What is the reason about earth leakage? Shouldn't the generator be grounded for the sake of powering those devices which require a proper earthing?

What do you mean by "guaranteed surge protection"? Are you an electrician to write like that?

gib444• 4 months ago

British governments have a terrible record with all eco schemes (mostly handouts to conmen). I don't expect this to be different

And it is of course home-counties obsessed thinking. They can both afford these toys and also have more sun

password43212• 4 months ago

In the US, Utah has allowed balcony solar since May 2025 and Virginia is expected to allow it starting in January 2027 (awaiting the governor's signature).

therealdrag02• 4 months ago

There’s 26 active bills! It’s taking off fast. Exciting developments.

https://pluginsolarusa.com

rwmj• 4 months ago

Here's another more mass audience article about these plug-in solar panels: https://www.which.co.uk/news/article/plug-in-solar-to-become...

misja111• 4 months ago

Can anybody explain how these plug-in solar panels work? I am suprised that it's possible to just plug them in to your wall socket.

For instance, isn't it complicated to have their output be in perfect sync with the frequency that comes in via the electricity net? Because to me it seems that if they won't, you will have lower benefits or even a net minus after plugging it in.

canpan• 4 months ago

Not a specialist, just from what I heard: There are two things that make it work. First they are not really "independent" like the title says. They sync with the grid frequency. If the grid is down they shut off for safety. The other reason it works is that the grid power inside the home is just what you get as incoming power 〜230V. For example, I think in the US you get 240V or so delivered to your house, but 120V from the plug.

mytailorisrich14• 4 months ago

My understanding is that plug-in solar inverters do sense what is coming from the grid and phase-sync to it with a PLL, and also adjust voltage accordingly.

pjc5012• 4 months ago

isn't it complicated to have their output be in perfect sync with the frequency

Not especially, given that the inverter has a microprocessor in it. All it has to do is measure the phase of the existing grid.

I don't have references for how it's actually done, but one obvious approach is simply to wait at each zero-crossing for a new half-cycle to cross a voltage threshold before turning on the output. This also implements the requirement to drop out if the grid goes away. It is probably also possible to measure during the "off" side of inverter output PWM, in the same way that variable frequency motor drivers work.

myrmidon4• 4 months ago

Typically, you have "dumb" panels connected to a mppt-controller/charger/inverter box which is connected to batteries and and electrical plug. This controller tunes voltage/current that is taken from the panels, optionally manages the attached battery and measures and feeds into the grid connection.

Some systems are capable of running in isolation from grid (providing 230V AC on their own), but this is less common and often unnecessary.

wyldfire• 4 months ago

I guess if you can solve phase alignment then another big problem is grid capability?

If everyone plugged one in, could the transmission network reliably deliver the power generated where it's needed? I thought that was a serious long term challenge for utilities wrt solar.

gorbypark2• 4 months ago

The micro inverter (most of these balcony kits use micro inverters) uses the grid as the reference. Most of these inverters will actually do nothing when the grid goes down. Like, they shut down for safety so you are not back feeding the grid, but even if you had some sort of back feeding isolation going on, they would still do nothing because they don’t have the reference of the grid.

It’s a downside of many grid tied residential systems (even large ones). No grid = no solar.

The Enphase IQ8 series is one of the first mass market micro inverters based systems to have the ability to make its own tiny electric island when the grid goes down. Requires an isolation switch and a relatively power hungry controller to use that feature, though. I looked into them for a balcony solar setup but it would be way overkill to run a full on controller for 800w of solar!

The best way for a small setup is just have a small “solar generator” battery that can take MC4 connectors as input. Prolonged power outage? Unplug the inverter, plug in the battery.

itsmek4• 4 months ago

Syncing them with electricity is easy. The hard part is preventing export to the grid which requires either a compatible smart meter that can communicate with your panels or a transformer clamp installed by an electrician. My understanding is some meters measure both directions equally so if you do end up exporting power you can conceivably increase your utility bill.

therealdrag02• 4 months ago

Why is preventing export hard? Just shut down production when the grid is down, which is how plug-in solar systems work.

adrianN7• 4 months ago

Why would you want to prevent export?

ForHackernews• 4 months ago

They are going to start selling solar panels at Lidl, a German-owned grocery store chain https://www.independent.co.uk/extras/indybest/house-garden/l...

gorbypark2• 4 months ago

I saw a video from the UK government with a guy walking down the aisle of a Lidl talking about it! I quickly went to Lidl.es to look as these 800w balcony solar setups are legal here in Spain. Unfortunately they don’t sell the here! Maybe once the UK does it they’ll start.

sambf• 4 months ago

It's been the case for several years in Lidl Germany and about a year in France

comrade1234• 4 months ago

Related, there's also a boom in at-home battery installations.

https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/climate-adaptation/switzerland-...

1970-01-013• 4 months ago

"Suddenly" is horrific evidence that the government has no idea how to do long-term plans.

Wait until you tell them you can run cars entirely on electricity from a solar farming. I'm sure they will ignore you until the price of diesel reaches four-digit territory. 1000p today? If only we didn't have to pay these incredible prices, what a miracle that would be..

michaelteter• 4 months ago

It's not that government has no idea, it's that around the world, too many "leaders" are directly or strongly indirectly being enriched by the fossil fuel industry and their support industries.

So politicians have a choice: do what's right for the people, or gain more power/money for themselves. Not every one of them chooses poorly, but enough do that it is difficult for real progress to be made.

mrguyorama2• 4 months ago

Don't forget the truly staggering amount of voters who seem to be ideologically opposed to energy independence and self delusion to support those bought politicians.

People earnestly and genuinely spout "But the birds" to wind installations. Why are they so intent on taking any possible excuse? Why do they need to have an opinion on something they know nothing about?

PowerElectronix6• 4 months ago

For european individuals, yes. For european nations, not in the least. They try to avoid independent consumers and producers of energy with all the regulations they can throw to them.

myrmidon4• 4 months ago

What nations are you talking about? E.g. in Germany, you can buy up to 7kW of panels, screw them onto your roof, wire them up with controller and battery and feed up to 800W into local grid, no one is gonna stop you or anything (only thing you need to do is register online with the grid operator if you have >2kW of panels).

Legislation is, in fact, specifically made so people (i.e. landlord) actually can't easily stop you from doing this.

PowerElectronix6• 4 months ago

The limits in power you can install, power you can inject to the grid and power you can just directly sell to neighbours through a micro-grid (zeeo, as it's illegal) tell quite the story.

interloxia• 4 months ago

Not quite as I understand it. At the low end, a couple of panels, yes. Beyond 960W of panels you will still need an an electrician rather than just the Schuko plug.

It's not clear to me why, for example, 2kW of panels which are also limited to 800W need need the special plug.

Hopefully I'm wrong!

"With a standard Schuko plug, a maximum of 960 watts peak is allowed on the DC side, regulated by DIN VDE V 0126-95. With the Wieland connector, a special feed-in socket, the limit increases to 2,000 watts peak. Anyone wanting to operate a system with up to 7,000 watts of module power will need a permanently installed feed-in socket, thus entering a range that is technically possible but also more complex to implement."

https://xpert.digital/en/balcony-solar-up-to-7-000-watts/

MandieD• 4 months ago

A quick check of OBI (our main home-improvement chain) shows that I can get that 800w "balcony" plug-and-go system for 300-600 EUR depending on the exact panels and inverter I want, and it's all pre-approved. I have fill in a simple, free form online announcing that I've done so or am planning to, and I'm now technically an energy seller - my local utility pays some for power fed back into the network (not nearly the rate they charge for delivering power, but better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick). If I don't want to accept 0.08 EUR/kWH, I'm free to plug in a battery for any excess. Our base load when I have my work computer and monitor on during the day is somewhere in the neighborhood of 300w, so I think this would work out well for us. I need to get off my bum and do it.

Shockingly unbureaucratic for Germany.

There is, as one could imagine, somewhat more burden for larger systems that require the involvement of someone who is actually an electrician, but I don't want my neighbors to be able to DIY fire hazards.

PowerElectronix6• 4 months ago

Yeah, as long as you are basically giving free power to your provider, it's all good.

God forbid you produce more, or try to sell it for market prices or even sell it directly to other individuals through a microgrid.

bokohut• 4 months ago

Several recent HN posts about "time" and these correlate superbly in relation to the now obvious, to nearly all, global energy issues. Those proactive in a reactive world are often mocked and laughed at until as such passage of time is achieved for those only reactive to learn of the proactive's hindsight choices. For those in the United States aware of the 'behind the scenes' energy grid issues this insight reflects that prices will not be dropping for those electrons we all so depressively require daily just like our air and water. Energy grid decentralization is occurring with the actions of each individual and this article supports exactly that because no one alive can survive in our modern world without those electrons. "Necessity is the mother of invention" only now resonates for some while the futurists here that acted long ago acutely understand this growing trend.

JumpCrisscross5• 4 months ago

Those proactive in a reactive world are often mocked and laughed at

I'm going to start calling this a Jehovah's Witness complex. Where amplified, mostly imagined mockery of an incredibly dominant view, at least in group, is used as evidence of that view's righteousness and, by extension, rightness.

prices will not be dropping...Energy grid decentralization is occurring

Cost versus resilience. A low-cost grid has lots of centralised production earning economies of scale. A highly-resilient system doesn't even need a grid, but it's going to be high cost.

The correct answer is in between. Rural electrification should be done entirely decentralised. Meanwhile, trying to run a city (or even most industry) on de-centralised power is a recipe for ruin.

iugtmkbdfil8343• 4 months ago

I think the answer may be more complex than that. I mean, I know you are not wrong. My boss only recently made a crack at how pointless solar energy is in the world of cheap gas.

But it is not just cost. It is a level of control the contractor has over it. The solar systems, as currently pushed, are designed to be carefully monitored at all times; if you read the contract ( in IL anyway, but I presume it is common, because my mom had a similar experience ), I have to give the company a way in every time they desire to look at the panels. I can't just take it down, I need to hire them. I can't not sell the house without them ( and the buyer has to take over that contract ).

I like solar tech, but the was it is designed is .. very American in the worst possible way. Yes, there seem to be better options popping up, but that is not where contractor money is at..

edit: Just in case, I got a quote in 2024 so obviously things may have changed on that front ( oddly, BBB may actually help with my particular set of complaints as the contractors will have to spread their bets somewhat ).

noosphr3• 4 months ago

A function state like China on the other hand is just building a grid that works.

Amazing what you can do when you copy how the US electrified in the first place.

exabrial2• 4 months ago

EU had quite a bit of energy independence with its nuclear fleet at one point.

pjc5012• 4 months ago

The EU doesn't operate a nuclear fleet. Individual countries do, which is why you get opposite policy in France and Germany.

exabrial2• 4 months ago

… face palm

mrks_hy• 4 months ago

Sure, because there are quite a lot of natural Uranium sources on EU soil. Care to name them?

svilen_dobrev• 4 months ago

i have been looking on this for an year+.. Here some current (online-shops) prices in Bulgaria.. say shop.chepakov.com / kameasolar.com

  - panel 490Wp 2sq.m chinese = ~80E
  - battery 5kwh Li chinese = ~1200E , non-chinese ~2000E+
  - hybrid invertor+charger 4kw = ~800E chinese , ~2000E non-chinese
  - grid and regulations:
  -- day price: 0.15E/kWh, night: 0.09E/kWh
  -- no such thing as spot prices - summer or winter, peak sun or midnight, no difference
  -- can install anything AS LONG AS Nothing goes back into grid - and does not break other city/dwelling rules

if one gets the electronics from Germany - geizheis.de - prices are half, coz a) no VAT, b) less middlemen . Even some smaller things come with free postage - from Germany to Bulgaria ; i did buy several smaller chargers/inverters (5kg), while local sellers here have no such ideas. But anyway.

The (proven) efficiency one can get is about 50-60% per Wp (if there is sun). So.. it depends how much panels one can install as that is the monie-source, all else is monie-sink :/

Rough Napkin math, electronics with german prices, ~5 hours per day sun on average: 10 panels (1000E) + 2 batteries (2000E) + inverter (1000E) ~~4000E yielding on average 440kwh/month i.e. pay itself in 5-7+ years, mostly for summer loads. While 5 panels + 1 battery + inverter ~2500E -> ~220kwh/month -> 6-8+ years

BUT only IF you can use that much electricity, otherwise it will take much longer to repay. And, batteries have to be replaced probably in 5-7 years, depending on depth-of-discharge.

In most places here everything is electrical. i have convectors, boilers, stove, etc. No A/C. (all other electrics is maybe under 2kw in total). i use like day/night 400/250kWh in summer, 1400/800 kWh in winter. Some people have noisy heat pumps but doubt that changes things much.

If it was a separate house - i would have done it long ago. But it's a block of flats.

So... small Balcony stuff makes no sense (a very expensive UPS?), big balcony stuff (like putting those 5 panels as balcony's shade.. a) probably won't be allowed, b) only a short balcony faces south-ish.

The roof of the building is empty - 250sq.m - and can hold about 75 panels - but dividing that into 15 (or 50+ in higher buildings).. is not pretty. a) Making one single farm and splitting the bill/output seems the only reasonable way but does not work without completely rewiring the building's grid input and measurings; not doable without bunch of permissions/certifications ; while b) making 15 separate 5-panels-packs - is not much economical, plus few kilometers of cables.. And c) If only few people want panels on roof, maybe some form of renting the roof space from others who don't want.. may work for a while but as any renting, may go crazy.

So.. been sitting and thinking.. and recently seems only sitting..

Aboutplants• 4 months ago

In the US, Distribution costs (the separate charge outside of your energy cost on your utility bill) are also incredibly high and going to keep rising as infrastructure costs mount. In my area, my distribution costs is actually more than my energy cost so the only way I ever think about solar is if I can decouple from the grid completely and get rid of those distribution costs. Got a long lo no ways to go

BLKNSLVR• 4 months ago

There's talk about this in Australia too, to keep the power companies viable or to maintain their profit margins I'm not sure but I know to which option my opinion leans.

It's a worse deal for people who have spent the capital to reduce their ongoing expenses, and it's a worse deal for people who have very low electricity usage (likely poorer people and those who are naturally frugal). It's possibly a better deal for heavy electricity users, and I'm not sure that's who should be rewarded. No, I am sure: they shouldn't be rewarded.

carlosjobim2• 4 months ago

Are Europeans actually building solar panels, or are they buying them?

jopsen• 4 months ago

If the life cycle is 25 years we crunch to find a new supplier (should it be necessary) won't come as urgently :)

carlosjobim2• 4 months ago

Agreed, but the headline should be "Europeans buying mini solar farms", in my opinion.

etchalon• 4 months ago

The rest of the world, "Let's use technology that helps us improve the environment, our economy, and our grid."

America - "I'mma roll coal and scream about birds and windmills."

xyrox1• 4 months ago

Good job

sulplisetalk• 4 months ago

energy independence - until the gov taxes you for tapping the sun shining over their land.

elric• 4 months ago

Practical...if you ignore hot water. Once you add that into the mix, you either need a lot of space for a large hot water tank, or a very big battery. Peak charges make tankless resistive water heaters very expensive to run.

Heck, I don't even have anywhere to place a heatpump, let alone a hot water tank.

Othrya• 4 months ago

Uh Electrification is actually probably not the smartest way to get energy independently at the moment.

Gasp0de3• 4 months ago

I live in Germany, installed a micro solar system in September 2024. Since then, we've been producing 45% of our electricity consumption ourselves. This has saved us 550€, while the initial cost was around 800€. So this September, after 2 years, the system will have paid for itself.

mmlkrx• 4 months ago

Could you provide more details? 800 Euros sounds very cheap while being able to produce 45% of your electricity needs. Did you mount it on your roof or a balcony or wall? How much power does it produce? Very curious to hear more details or even recommendations (I too live in Germany).

mixermachine3• 4 months ago

Have a look here:

https://shop-sicatron.de/products/sicatron-910w-balkonkraftw...

You still need attachment material for your balcony.

Keep in mind that this system will input all it's power into your power grid. If you don't use the power it will go directly into the public grid.

Still, really good cost saving measure.

Gasp0de3• 4 months ago

Hi, sorry I'm late to respond. The price was something like this: 150€ Hoymiles HMS-800W-2t 300€ 4 Trina Solar 445W Full Black panels 100€ Shelly Pro 3em (not necessary but I wanted to see how much we feed in) The rest was construction materials and small stuff. We have mounted it on our roof, 900W East, 900W West. One east and one west panel are wired in parallel and connected to one MPPT of the HMS-800W. We're producing around 1.3MWh per year.

mixermachine3• 4 months ago

Crazy thing is, the cost of these systems has gone down even further since then. You can get a 800w plug-in solar set with panels and an inverter for around 200€. Shipping might be 70€ or you can pick it up locally at the dealer. Add another 50-100€ for attachment material and you are good.

So for 250 to 400€ you can get a system that will break even latest after four years, likely earlier.

Gasp0de3• 4 months ago

Yes, although to be fair we have around 1.8kWp, plus roof installation material, plus shipping.

giantg22• 4 months ago

Are they using EU manufactured solar panels? If not, I don't feel like this is real independence.

edot• 4 months ago

Exactly. This is such a goofy idea, that you can buy something from China and use it in the EU and suddenly you’re “energy independent”. No, you’re China dependent. I guess the argument would be that solar panels last a long time and thus you’ve bought yourselves 20 years or whatever the life span is, of energy independence from China? But you’ll need new batteries sooner than that.

adrianN7• 4 months ago

Solar panels are not that difficult to make. It’s just difficult to make them cheaper than China.

testing223215• 4 months ago

With rooftop solar and an EV I’m a lot less dependent on China for the next 30 years than everyone around me is on the Middle East daily for gas to drive and natural gas for heat.

barbazoo2• 4 months ago

It's a different kind of dependence. Sure you need China for this particular panel you're buying now but from then on you are no longer dependent on them.

Compare that to oil and gas which has to continually be shipped. And no one says that we won't figure out how to produce these things ourselves one day.

giantg22• 4 months ago

We can produce them already, but they're too expensive. You are still reliant on China etc continuously shipping panels because panels will need to be replaced and expanded over time. Sure, it's a smaller volume, but still the same sort of problem.

‘Energy independence feels practical’: Europeans building mini solar farms

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