Singapore, where have all your talent gone?

http://e27.sg/2012/11/06/singapore-where-have-all-your-talent-gone/

by andycroll • 14 years ago

65 47 14 years ago

e27.sg

hboon• 14 years ago

Andy: I'm not tuned in to the startup scene here, have you observed this trend?

andycroll2• 14 years ago

I've seen it. But it's the same as anywhere.

Good people are hard to hire.

Singapore also has a relatively favourable short-term working visa with the US (H1B1?), which makes moving to the US more feasible for SG nationals.

wyclif• 14 years ago

Good people are not hard to hire. If you don't believe me, take it from David "Pardo" Keppel:

There's no shortage of smart, hardworking engineers. There's a shortage of smart, hardworking engineers willing to work for very little money.

If you're having trouble hiring, it's because you're not paying enough. It turns out that talented people are worth paying a lot for.

ashray3• 14 years ago

Singapore is a pretty great place.

That said, the place is freakishly expensive. I recently looked at Singapore as an option to move there and start up a.. startup. The entrepass will require $50,000 of paid up capital plus yadda yadda. That is, post company registration: http://www.mom.gov.sg/foreign-manpower/passes-visas/entrepas...

Following that, there are quite a few hoops to jump through but the worst part is that they require you to spend $100,000+ per year plus there are milestones regarding hiring singapore nationals within the first two years.

Couple that with rents that are in the range of Manhattan housing.

It's a bit of a complicated situation for a startup to be in considering that startups are already pretty complicated high risk businesses.

Then there's the question of pretty strong programming competition from India. If a startup were to choose between India and Singapore based on costs, market size, etc. then India would be the obvious choice. (ease of business and quality of life in Singapore however is orders of magnitude higher!)

I'm absolutely certain that Singapore has great talent available but starting up there needs to be made easier considering the high cost of living. As for home-grown entrepreneurs, maybe the Singapore government should look at a program like Startup Chile that may help foster some innovation locally.

kiba• 14 years ago

Isn't renting and getting a house in silicon valley quite expensive?

ashray3• 14 years ago

Yes, but it's way more worth it with a strong already existing startup ecosystem.

It's not going to be fun if you drop a ton of cash on a startup in Singapore and then the government decides to kick you out because you didn't meet their specific milestones.

czcar• 14 years ago

Hey Ash, been meaning to write a blog post as someone who moved their startup from NZ to Singapore - it's not quite as dire as you supposed.

Firstly, I would never recommend anyone to get the Entrepass - best thing to do is just to register a business and apply for an EP pass as an employee of said company. Admittedly in this scenario you would need a local director - but services for this shouldn't run over $1000/annum.

The next statement about spending $100,000+ per year, is again - not true if you are on the standard EP pass.

Rents for accomodation are, however as you stated expensive, we're currently paying $5400 SGD / month for a 3 bdroom in a nice condo in central Singapore.

However, for 2800-3500 / month you can find 3-4 bedroom places that are lacking condo facilities but are more than suitable for living.

If you have any additional questions or queries please don't hesitate.

Also, don't take this as a glowing endorsement of SG - there are plenty of downsides to this island nation for tech.

cam

ashray3• 14 years ago

Hey! Thanks so much for your response! I didn't know about the local company + director option. That sounds like a good path to head down.

I did read somewhere about the $100,000 per year or maybe per two years + hiring minimum 2 singapore nationals by the end of a year. That, or something similar (I think that's the Q1 pass). These are the guidelines governing entrepass renewal. http://www.mom.gov.sg/foreign-manpower/passes-visas/entrepas...

So yes, the local company option really does look like the way to go!

I really love Singapore, went there about 2 years ago and thought of starting a business there (the place is full of opportunity!).

I'll definitely hit you up with more questions if I do decide to move there. Thanks so much for offering! :)

EDIT: Also, do please write that blog post! There's not a lot of info out there about tech startups in Singapore and it would be interesting to read an insider's perspective.

wiradikusuma• 14 years ago

try beat Indonesia. cost of starting a company: 4x fresh grad monthly salary. how long? can be 6 months,

brass9• 14 years ago

One of my companies is incorporated in Singapore. IIRC, it cost us between US$ 5-6,000 to register the company. Yearly maintenance cost is US$ 2,000+ (that includes a local business address, the services of a local director, bookkeeping staff etc.).

We're using services of a firm called Rikvin assoc. They're kind of expensive. If you're physically present in SG, you may find cheaper alternatives.

pault• 14 years ago

Is it easy enough to get around and socialize in english?

muhfuhkuh2• 14 years ago

I think that Singapore is suffering from almost exactly the same problem as Vancouver, Canada. It's a fantastic city enveloped by the ocean and mountains, has world-class cuisine, and city planning that has a semblance of sanity to most observers.

Yet, the young brains are draining en masse for Montreal and Toronto (not to mention California). It doesn't help that Vancouver hasn't bothered to match the aforementioned cities' tax incentives for small and technology businesses (thus the brain drain). And, lately it seems that mainland Chinese are trading their yuan for Vancouver real estate, thus seriously inflating the bubble and pricing everyone who doesn't own an Android phone factory in Chengdu out entirely.

Singapore is increasingly being known as a haven for the borderless rich to park their jets and their cash, since the tax climate is the envy of most of the developed world. So, the same situation foments: You can't keep the Creative Class without giving them (affordable) space to live and work and play (which for that class is all the same!)

jbm2• 14 years ago

Brain drain to Montreal?

I am a bit skeptical that anyone would want to pay Quebec-level taxes, particularly with the recent political issues at play.

Could you offer some evidence for this? I'd love to believe it is true (as I am originally from there), but it just rings hollow.

nahname• 14 years ago

I was seriously considering moving to Vancouver from Calgary. It is really hard to find talented, passionate people in Calgary. But even ignoring the lower wages in Vancouver, the cost of housing is a bad joke.

My long term plan now is to move to Toronto. Plenty of flourishing tech communities. Industries where technology is a differentiator (Calgary is all cost centre). It is the small things that make a difference. I would love to spend an evening learning something from my peers, rather than presenting beginner level content because most of the audience is stuck using pre-approved MS technologies.

yzhengyu• 14 years ago

As someone living here for most of his life, yeah, Singapore has become very expensive. Doesn't help that inflation has been around 6% ~ 7% per year.

The .gov here has been playing with the exchange rate (rather than interest rates) to help out but it really hasn't really worked out.

mmishra2• 14 years ago

How does it effect me ? Currently, why even to bother about anything else other than work in hand !! - http://syncfin.com

mmishra2• 14 years ago

I apologize if I have hurt anyone's sentiments here. I didn't intend to hurt anybody here. My comment was probably an impulsive, but unwanted, reaction. It being the startup group forum, I was under the impression that only things related to ideas and their execution will be discussed. But I was probably wrong. I am seeing that topics are varying a lot here. There are topics from generating power from urine to how to predict the trend of twitter.

In any case, I consider it as my mistake to put this comment which has been considered by some as offensive. I regret the same.

I wish there was some way to delete it. I would have deleted it if it was possible.

Thanks

ComputerGuru• 14 years ago

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but in this case, both British and American English would say that the correct word is "has" and not "have" in the title?

I know British English is a little different when referring to entities comprised of many people, but in this case, the the "have" refers to "your talent" and not "Signapore" and, as such, should be "has" instead?

stan_rogers2• 14 years ago

"Your talent" would be a collective noun in this case, referring not to the talent held by an individual, but the pool of talented people to draw upon. The usage is analogous to team or crowd in this sense. (And yes, you could use the singular, shift mental gears to anthropomorphize Singapore and assign it the quality of talent, and keep the same overall meaning with a minor shift in grammar and metaphor. And who said English is a simple language?)

jcampbell1• 14 years ago

Talent is a non-countable collective noun, like money or sugar. Consider "Where has/have all your money gone?" Has is the correct answer, at least by American grammar rules.

lostlogin2• 14 years ago

I took it as a vaguely racist comment on how a non English speaker might say it. I must be overly sensative.

cdf• 14 years ago

Singaporeans are supposed to be near native English speakers because English is supposed to be our first language... but obviously not near enough.

yen223• 14 years ago

To tech companies everywhere: If you're finding it hard to find talent in Singapore, you should seriously consider looking in Malaysia.

Here we have a glut of talent, costs are hell of a lot cheaper than Singapore, and best of all, the Googles and Facebooks of the world don't have much of a presence here, so that's less competition for you!

sushengloong• 14 years ago

"Malaysia, where have all your talent gone?"

netpenthe• 14 years ago

all your talent are belong to US

frankchn• 14 years ago

To be honest, the absolute smartest Math/CS-types I know (with a few exceptions) went to the United States or the UK for their undergraduate studies and decided to stick around rather than return to Singapore. Start-ups in Singapore probably don't even know they exist.

jmiseikis• 14 years ago

How about hardware startups in Singapore?

notthetup2• 14 years ago

Almost inexistant.. Pretty ironic given the geographical closeness to manufacturing centers like China and Taiwan.

I guess a part of it is the image that HW is not "fancy"..

eoin_murphy• 14 years ago

As a developer, with a good few years of experience behind me (admittedly in non-startup areas like insurance and equity plans), who's actively looked to move to Singapore I've found it quite hard to find any jobs that didn't fall into either the entry level code monkey (MUST KNOW HTML & XHTML) or the high level investment banking sector.

Really good local talent will probably drift towards the latter and startup's just can't compete with those sort of salaries. I imagine it's the same issue with New York.

As with all good jobs, startup positions are never really advertised openly. And if they are, they're not there for long.

irahul• 14 years ago

I don't know about the tech scene in Singapore, but I recently visited Singapore and here are some random excerpts about Singapore.

1. As with any other country which isn't your own, familiarize yourself with local law first. Littering is a punishable offense; watching pornography is not an offense but possession, creation and distribution is; there are limits to free speech but considering you are a tourist or evaluating the place for business feasibility, I don't think that comes into play.

2. It's expensive. And the currency conversion isn't going to help you(1 sgd is 0.817 usd and 0.63 euro). If you are going to stay for long, the best option is to crash on an acquaintance's couch. I don't have any clue about budget hotels since I was staying at a friend's place.

3. Rents are crazy expensive. The rents for a normal 3 bedroom apartment will cost about 3000 sgd and a decent condo will cost you 5000 sgd. Considering that average salary of a techie is about 5000 sgd, I will consider it very high. Most of the working people share houses - it is normal to have 3(or sometimes more) people sharing a 3 bedroom apartment.

4. It's hot and humid, and this is coming from someone who lives in India(though in Bangalore, which is on the cooler side).

5. Taxes are low to non-existent for people on EP(Employment Pass). I don't know the details but my friend hasn't been paying any taxes. As suggested elsewhere, Entrepass will be unreasonable for small companies, and you are better off registering a company with a PR(permanent resident) and getting EP yourself.

6. From what I heard from my friend(she was working on Singapore Exchange's migration from mainframe to unix), the work culture is kinda high ceremony viz. be on time(I was a bit surprised); leaving early will raise eyebrows; seniority is based on how much time you have spent at a place and the work relations are generally formal. I have never been to China and Japan, but the description sounds pretty close to how people describe it. Anyway, this is an anecdote and I haven't seen the whole picture.

7. People are generally friendly and understand and speak English.

8. Public transport is good and affordable. Get the transport smart card(they call it MRT card I believe; you can buy it at any tube station).

9. Cabs are on the expensive side. There is some sort of surcharge for morning and evening peak hours.

10. The city has decent nightlife and I found it safe and secure.

11. There won't be any touts bothering you.

That's it as far as general Singapore information is concerned. If anyone has any specific questions, feel free to mail me.

wheaties• 14 years ago

Did he just complain about "companies he never heard of" and "top tech" like Facebook? I hate to tell this kid but those companies you've never heard of are 90% of what it means to be a start-up. Start-ups aren't well known at all until they're already past the "might not be around next year" phase unless they go through a well known incubator. Facebook on the other hand is established. They aren't going anywhere any time soon.

raghava2• 14 years ago

Am a programmer currently in Singapore; some of my observations are as below.

1. Singapore is business friendly. But only for big businesses; investment banks and such. Small and medium ones will have a tough time considering the cost of living and expenses here.

2. Local IT job market is tuned more towards jobs in banks and insurance companies rather than in true programming/RnD. And as obvious, most of it is for maintenance or support of legacy CRUD apps.

3. Most of the smart local fellows move to UK/US and find the environment there quite enriching, and stay. Singapore gets boring after a couple of years.

4. Govt has raised minimum salary limit for an employment pass, keeping in mind the locals' emotions against increasing number of immigrants. Not many are vocal about their unhappiness about inflow of immigrants, but few are very much.

5. Startups here seem to be hesitant to get smart folks from nearby places like Malaysia, Indonesia, Philippines or India. Just couldn't understand why. My guess would be that an employment pass and dependent pass is quite costly for them, or that getting immigrant workers would be too much of paperwork and legal hassle for them.

6. Most of the shops here follow the true Asian work culture where number of years in a place trumps capability and competence. Singapore's culture is of very high Power distance index. The mandatory national service for all boys at their prime tunes and trains them that authority and orders must be followed unquestionably.

7. http://blogs.wsj.com/searealtime/2011/12/15/wozniak-apple-co...

and

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/1.04/gibson_pr.html

noto• 14 years ago

Personally, me and my friends have started a startup in Singapore from 2006 and shut it down after 5 years of trying to make it work. We graduated from Computer Science of NUS in 2006 and startup is unheard of during that time. Below is my opinion of "startups vs talent" in Singapore.

1. There are very good CS guys around in Singapore, but most of them stayed back at school to do PHD. The reason is very simple: Singapore IT jobs have little coding skills needed and most of the time it is just project management (with most of the coding jobs outsourced) or support work (calling up vendors, standby when server down etc). There is no way for us to grow our talent once out of school. College is the last place where we can do technically challenging stuff, so those competent CS guys prefer to stay in school.

2. Our govt is infact the biggest employer of our IT graduates, doing the stuff of Point 1 above.

3. Despite all the woohoo that the startup scene in Singapore is trying to make itself into, it is really quite pathetic here. Cost is high, funding is little, market is not in this region too. Naivety is still the main driving force of startups in Singapore. Meaning those that want to startup in Singapore are probably really first-timers that do not know what they are getting into (especially fresh grads out of sch), and probably understood startup as anything that has the mixture of "tech+biz"

4. Companies do not value startup founders that failed, meaning if founders want to find re-employment in other companies, it is doubly hard for them cause employers do not understand what do startups do and how their experience in startups can contribute in anything. Startup founders that failed in Singapore is treated like a bankrupt equivalent.

So with job market that is generally not technically challenge, and startups that are technically challenge but not making it at all, it is simple to see why "talent" is not found in Singapore

dematio• 14 years ago

Agree to number 4. If you are "out of touch" from corporate world for a few years, it's difficult to get back to corporate world with a decent pay. You have to take a big pay cut and probably you have start it from the beginning.

raghava2• 14 years ago

>> failing

A line that I usually quote; "In case of a failure in the West, it's your ideas that failed; in the East, it's you who failed."

Singapore, where have all your talent gone?

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