The VPN panic is only getting started

Not OP but while I don't seek "punishment", I do seek accountability. I know that might seem like a flowery synonym at best, or an amorphous piece of jargon at worst, but if we are to treat online spaces as public forums, we need to structure these spaces like public forums, which means having consequences for abject lies. The "but who decides" response is a thought-terminating cliche that we need to collectively move past. Until we stop letting the perfect get in the way of the good enough, we will continue to let bad actors dictate the public understanding of technological issues, and of issues more generally (eg: antivax).

pksebben5• 8 months ago

It'll be alright. We've dealt with manic authoritarians who dream of planetary control before. Just another quick world war and the development of an even more sinister superweapon and we'll be right back to thinking in sane, evenhanded terms. Or dead.

Or, you know, we could huck our failed systems out with the trash instead. Reinvent democracy to be more direct and flexible. Could be nice.

Ferret74462• 8 months ago

"I know why you did it. I know you were afraid. Who wouldn't be? War. Terror. Disease. There were a myriad of problems which conspired to corrupt your reason and rob you of your common sense. Fear got the best of you and in your panic, you turned to the now High Chancellor Keir Starmer. He promised you order. He promised you peace. And all he demanded in return was your silent, obedient consent."

anal_reactor3• 8 months ago

That's not exactly true. Social engineering at scale is becoming better and better. You don't need to remove dangerous opinions, you simply need to make sure nobody cares about them. And the fun thing is, most people say that they support freedom of speech, but when they see an opinion they dislike, they say the opinion should be blocked. This is why all the laws restricting freedom of speech pass without major issues.

rmunn• 8 months ago

Lawmakers making laws about technical matters don't realize that they don't understand those technical matters well enough to make intelligent laws about them.

Shocking! Unprecedented! Film at 11!

SanjayMehta• 8 months ago

VPNs were the target from the beginning. Whenever a politician says "think of the children," it's the beginning of the wedge strategy.

stuaxo• 8 months ago

That implies a plan, its more lurch from one thing to the next expedient thing.

aydyn• 8 months ago

This honestly so pathetic, you have to consider that bongs arent even people anymore.

Spivak• 8 months ago

The money quote is that it's not at all clear whether the sudden VPN usage is from kids or from adults to (I think rightfully) don't want to hand over their government id or their CC to random websites.

Because yeah, fuck that shit. The presumption should be that all content on the internet is for adults. If you want your site to be child friendly you can opt into a higher standard of moderation. How did we go from the internet is for porn to this?!

pksebben5• 8 months ago

If I were of the mind that children are delicate little flowers that must be protected from everything in the world lest they shatter like a fancy vase (and I am not), this is not the plan I would be pushing. There's no way this path leads to better protection for kids.

You want to sequester children from the 'harms' of the internet? You have to do more work - create a .kids TLD and build browsers and websites for that. Make a smartphone that has the protections baked into the kernel (and works fine for everything else a phone must be so parents actually buy them). Attempting to graft child protection into the existing ecosystem is attempting to build a tower on top of a swamp. It simply isn't happening.

Unless (and I think we all see this) the goal isn't to build the tower, but to convince people to pave the swamp.

The 'think of the kids' argument is also kind of dumb at face value. So what, like at 18 you're magically gifted with the ability to understand and manage the hard edges of the world? How on earth are you supposed to develop that understanding in a vacuum? I think we're not giving kids enough credit, frankly. Each generation seems to develop a more nuanced and complex view of the world than the generations previous (which makes sense, they learned with better tech).

WarOnPrivacy2• 8 months ago

The UK government is facing calls to restrict children’s access to VPNs.

VPNs aren't capable of harming kids. They aren't content and even the usual imagined harms can't be caused by a VPN.

The Gov's entire argument seems to be 'We aren't getting our way".

Imagine if Gov officials cared about Gov officials trading law for favors - like they do about popular hysteria.

pksebben5• 8 months ago

Who is making these calls?

WarOnPrivacy2• 8 months ago

Attacks on tech that protect speech tend to come from political interests. Attacks on tech that protect privacy often come from law enforcement.

The actual goals are always to maximize control over the public while Gov officials and their allies avoid accountability.

lisbbb5• 8 months ago

In my opinion, the government never had the authority to restrict access to online content in the first place. That authority was seized from us and more and more countries are falling into the black hole of censorship. It's the Satanic Panic all over again.

Snakes3727• 8 months ago

It baffles me that parents have become so lazy they don't even want to monitor what their kid does anymore online, and instead expect the government to do all the work.

I remember when my daughter wanted to play Roblox with some friends I sure as shit did my best to monitor and lock down that horrible thing. Same with just general internet monitoring. Whenever she wants to play some game or something I research it.

I have sat down with her countless times and yeah she has broken my trust a few times and she looses access to the internet.

CJefferson• 8 months ago

The world doesn’t consider it reasonable for businesses to sell beer to kids, and expect us all to constantly follow our kids around to make sure they don’t get beer. Bars don’t get to say ‘woops, we got thousands of 9 year olds drunk, their parents should keep an eye on them’”.

And at this point, most kids, most people, spend more time online than outside walking around

g-b-r2• 8 months ago

Bars don’t get to say ‘woops, we got thousands of 9 year olds drunk, their parents should keep an eye on them’”.

Because there's no whatsoever downside in requiring bars to not serve children (if we assume that it's just to not give alcohol to children); online age checks instead have very big negative consequences for the whole populace.

pram2• 8 months ago

TBF my boomer parents didn't monitor a single thing I did on the internet, so I kinda doubt it's some unique failure of contemporary parents.

jen729w• 8 months ago

But was this in the late 90s/early 00s? I mean … it was kinda different then, no?

I - 49 - also had boomer parents who didn't monitor my internet back then. I really don't think it can be compared to today.

ls6123• 8 months ago

My parents tried but they know about as much about technology as a typical boomer so by the time I was in high school it became totally ineffective.

ch20262• 8 months ago

I sure as shit did my best to monitor and lock down that horrible thing

How much of that "horrible thing" is due to a handful of youtube videos you've seen as opposed to first-hand experiences? What if you found out that the very well-produced youtube videos which regularly attack Roblox have the exact same agenda as the US/UK laws you're opposing?

octorian• 8 months ago

Oh, its definitely a dumpster fire. And they keep changing the parental controls to make it less obvious what's appropriate for what age.

And then there's the constant begging for fewer restrictions and more things being permitted, to the point where you're basically screaming "no" in their face and want to smash the damn tablet.

Then it settles down, and starts up again a month later.

Dusseldorf• 8 months ago

Within the past week the CEO described predatory behavior on the platform as "not necessarily just a problem, but an opportunity as well". Not sure what YouTube videos have to do with that, regardless of production value.

GaryBluto2• 8 months ago

I have sat down with her countless times and yeah she has broken my trust a few times and she looses access to the internet.

All that does is encourage her to lie and find work-arounds rather than fess-up and suffer consequences.

ctheb• 8 months ago

What would a better approach look like?

protocolture2• 8 months ago

Good breeding ground for new techies however. Circumventing net nannies and school protections got a lot of us interested in the first place.

bigstrat2003• 8 months ago

That makes no sense. For rules to have any meaning at all, there must be consequences to breaking them. If OP doesn't take away his daughter's Internet access when she breaks his trust, it will just teach her that there's no reason to follow his rules because it doesn't affect the outcome for her.

joseangel_sc2• 8 months ago

my teenager self finds this as a challenge and just a way to defy your authority

mjevans• 8 months ago

I'd feel better about a kid smart enough to learn how to get around DNS block lists and other forms of mass surveillance and filtering than one who free ranges and isn't even trying to get out.

annoyingnoob• 8 months ago

Kids need room to explore the boundaries and fail, it is part of growing up.

lisbbb5• 8 months ago

It's not about parents failing to do their jobs, it is about heavy handed big government wanting to step even further into our lives using our own technology.

justinator2• 8 months ago

Brutha when I was young my parents would ring a bell at dinnertime and if I ran to the dining room in 5 minutes I got to eat and that was basically the extent of their monitoring of me.

fragmede2• 8 months ago

But did you have unrestricted access to a device with a camera where pedophiles the world over tried to talk thirteen year old you into doing dances in your underwear for them?

idiotsecant• 8 months ago

If it's baffling it's because it's bullshit. Very few parents are calling for this. It's just 'Wont someone please think of the children' moral hand-wringing on its face and not very subtle creeping fascism underneath.

navigate83102• 8 months ago

This kind of helicopter parenting encourages the child to break your trust even more. Instead of regulating what your child does online, be very transparent and talk about out all the perils of such services. Be ready to invest considerable time with them that encourages physical outdoor activities instead of being lazy and hoping internet will be their parent and then micro manage stuff.

frizlab5• 8 months ago

Do you have children?

latentsea• 8 months ago

Most people don't actually either know what the perils of such services look like in enough practical detail to describe it to kids, and if they do, they generally feel very uncomfortable describing such things to their children. Ironically the logic is that kids are too young to hear about such things like that and need to be protected against even hearing about it. Seems counter productive to me, but also seems to be the way of the world.

fuzzythinker• 8 months ago

How can such obtuse opinion be the top comment? A good parent builds trust with their kids, not monitor them. If that trust can not be obtained, then block sites in hosts or at the network level. If you believe Roblox is horrible for your kid, why allow them to use it at all?

slumberlust• 8 months ago

Would you support removing age restrictions elsewhere under the guise of 'just parent?' Drinking age? Gambling? Driving?

port11• 8 months ago

So we're blaming parents now? I don't know a single parent that understands what a VPN is or why the government needs to be on top of that.

This is 100% a crusade against online anonymity and a bid for control. Children aren't using VPNs, adults are, and politicians are quite convinced that that's where dissidence and danger lies.

macinjosh• 8 months ago

people pay to read The Verge?

g-b-r2• 8 months ago

or they use archive.is

jswelker5• 8 months ago

On the one hand, fuck creepy government overreach.

On the other hand, fuck scummy porn and social media platforms.

Can we get rid of both? Maybe we can have some kind of Hamlet-esque ending where they all die in the duel.

the_af8• 8 months ago

fuck scummy porn

It usually does involve fucking, yes.

"Rid of both"? This is against all kinds of porn, sexy stuff, erotica, and also unsexy things considered not suitable for teens. It has nothing to do with "scummy", even honest to goodness porn is affected.

And I'm sure you can see grownups don't necessarily want to be tied to specific porn watching habits (multiple scenarios for why this is, but all can be chalked up to "human nature").

lisbbb5• 8 months ago

I'm not troubled by porn or my kids seeing it. If anything, I advocate healthy sex lives for my kids once they are of age because there is some kind of massive Puritanism push going on that looks to be the end of the human race--look how they are destroying the common bonds of love and intimacy using technology to demolish our ability to relate to one another. Don't think it's happening? Look around you--people are more and more isolated and miserable and fearful of making contact, especially intimate contact, for fear of accusations of r-a-p-e or assault or whatever. Of course I don't want predators finding my kids online and using the Internet to get to them, but that's where actual parenting comes in--teaching kids what to watch out for and to make smart choices. It's just that I don't believe we can bubble wrap everything and still have a functioning civilization on the other end. It will fail and fall down, all due to good intentions.

jswelker5• 8 months ago

Regardless of your opinion of porn qua porn, surely you can admit there is something scummy about algorithmic, ad filled porn platforms, and parasocial porn influencer platforms? HN regularly and rightly dumps on these elements on the context of Facebook, IG, etc. Does porn get a pass just because porn in some incarnations is avante garde?

zarzavat• 8 months ago

What is the best way to harden the internet against these imbeciles?

pksebben5• 8 months ago

Antitrust. Smaller more distributed ISPs.

Or internet backbone alternatives. Household backyard microwave repeater mesh networks? Residential wifi meshes?

I'm only indulging in sci fi because I don't have a good answer either. I do hate being dependent on systems with few points of failure.

Refreeze5224• 8 months ago

Take the control of its direction away from companies like Google, which double as government access points to mass surveillance, for one.

irilesscent• 8 months ago

TOR and the torweb

GaryBluto2• 8 months ago

How much more will it take before people resort to direct action against the government? It's been shown time and time again that once stuff like this has been done that the government will never let it be undone.

the_af8• 8 months ago

Direct action against a government is usually taken when the economy crashes, families cannot make ends meet, there's no food on the table, etc.

It won't happen over VPN restrictions.

I'd like people to protest these draconian measures, but realistically, outside the tech bubble of HN, this is not foremost on people's minds.

lisbbb5• 8 months ago

It's more likely we get some kind of new tech that works even better than a VPN but is totally deniable as far as it being used at all. A more stealthy VPN. I have advocated for Internet privacy for decades now, mostly to deaf ears. We're finally seeing some of the affects of neglecting our privacy. The little guy can win with technology and governments are terrified of that.

mrtesthah• 8 months ago

So when do we get to the Great Firewall of the UK?

protocolture2• 8 months ago

Enjoy the internet without poms, and hope trump does the same thing?

k310• 8 months ago

First websites, then VPN's, and then keywords ...

WAIT! SCRATCH THAT!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XKeyscore

Why not just build spyware into every computer?

WAIT! SCRATCH THAT!

https://copilot.microsoft.com/

So here's the solution. AGO: Artificial General Orgasmatron. Be working on it.

Since it's hardware, parents can restrict access at the source.

Age verification built-in? Well, since it knows your secret desires in order to work, it obviously knows your age.

One in every home. Hallucinations? It works entirely through hallucinations. Since the user builds the fantasy bank (Large Lust Model, or LLM) there's no need for an internet connection.

iamnothere4• 8 months ago

I guess we’ll need to run Snowflake bridges for the UK soon, as well. What’s next, will Bloody Sunday get the Tiananmen treatment?

NaomiLehman• 8 months ago

how are kids paying for VPNs? /s

we really are living in a dumb timeline

nirui• 8 months ago

You know, there's prison and capital punishment, and yet people still commit crimes. There's a point you have just give up protecting, otherwise you're hurting yourself, just like an over-reacting immune system killing the host.

What if the kid just rent a foreign VPS, put Windows on it, enable RDP, and then just "gooning" away on that? UK is going to ban all VPS providers too?

Then what if it's "just a foreign friend's computer"? Ban all foreign IPs?

Beside that, I never believed that what UK's doing is for protecting the children, otherwise where are so many other more important things to do, for example, UK can support low income families so their kids won't go hunger, UK can also provide social housings for young people so they know they have a roof to safely sleep under.

None of that, but porn and VPN, wow, that's the enemy number one, kids must be protected from those things.

barrkel• 8 months ago

It's weird how this seems to be coming everywhere all at once.

Is it just politician FOMO, when they see someone trying this somewhere they feel they need to try it too?

It feels like a concerted push to deanonymize the web.

tim333• 8 months ago

As a Brit I'm going to protest if they try blocking VPNs.

I was kind of ok with age checks for porn etc. but if kids are together enough to use VPNs then I guess leave them to it.

The VPN panic is only getting started

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