T-Mobile claimed selling location data without consent is legal–judges disagree

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2025/08/t-mobile-claimed-selling-location-data-without-consent-is-legal-judges-disagree/

by Bender • 11 months ago

391 93 11 months ago

arstechnica.com

sour-taste• 11 months ago

Look forward to the supreme Court ruling that the FCC is illegal and actually owes carriers money for some reason

TimorousBestie2• 11 months ago

SCOTUS hates the DC Circuit almost as much as it hates the Ninth; this decision is dead on arrival.

kstrauser• 11 months ago

If that were the case, then it would probably stand. The Ninth usually has the lowest, or among the lowest, reversal rate of any district: https://ballotpedia.org/SCOTUS_case_reversal_rates_(2007_-_P...

You hear a lot of lies to the contrary that it has the highest number of reversals, which is misleadingly irrelevant because the Ninth also has by far the greatest number of decisions. It's like saying that New York City has more violent crimes than El Paso, which utterly ignores the population difference between the two.

SilverElfin• 11 months ago

Is there any way to block this location data sharing? What about other carriers? I always think about denying apps access to this stuff but a carrier tracking me is insane and scary. The linked article makes it seem like ATT and Verizon also do this.

TimorousBestie2• 11 months ago

Probably not. The infrastructure has to know where your cell phone is in order to communicate with it.

Last I checked, the large carriers in the states hoard this information for years.

jacquesm3• 11 months ago

This is not quite true. They have to know roughly where your cell phone is but, helpfully, your cellphone starts the process as soon as you start it up and then it is a courtesy to you that the unit closest to you will handle your call(s) and other traffic because that will save you battery and reduces the amount of power your phone will use which in turn will allow others relatively nearby to use the same slice of the spectrum while you are transmitting. Phased arrays on the mast make this even more precise and further conserve power. But that really is a courtesy: it would all work without that luxury but less efficient and your phone's battery would be empty faster.

The part that really is optional is where the carrier then stores and even sells your location. They are mandated by law with respect to the first and they abuse the technical capabilities of the system for the second. And even if it isn't very precise for a single measurement it is in fact quite precise after you haven't moved for a while.

codedokode• 11 months ago

Airplane mode.

tantalor• 11 months ago

Yeah it is quite easy, just take out your phone and follow these steps,

1. Go outside

2. Break the phone in half

3. Toss it in the nearest garbage can

4. Walk away

nullc• 11 months ago

4. Walk away

Run. Half phone will burst into flames.

sugarpimpdorsey• 11 months ago

Yes you could go full rms and not own one* and ask someone else to borrow theirs.

* does anyone know if this is still true?

lazide• 11 months ago

Even better - randomly pickpocket someone else’s phone, use it once, then toss it /s

RajT882• 11 months ago

Asking to borrow someone's phone is a common theft tactic. I wouldn't do it, for fear of someone thinking you're up to no good.

Burners / prepaid SIM's are still a thing.

whatamidoingyo• 11 months ago

You can purchase a Faraday cage for your phone. Or you can make one.

natas2• 11 months ago

all cars should have one

adrr• 11 months ago

Carrier tracking isn't precise as GPS tracking via the phone. Its frequently a mile or more off. Banks were using it in lieu of a travel notice to see if the card swipe and phone were in the same city. Thats my experience with it. They moved away though and now try to ping the app(silent push) to get an IP or location data since buying location data from carriers is expensive.

Lammy5• 11 months ago

Carrier tracking isn't precise as GPS tracking via the phone.

Not any more. 5G changes this now that the location spying is baked into the cell tech itself. The base stations are literally steering the beam to follow you in order to achieve such high bandwidth. See “5G NR Positioning Enhancements in 3GPP Release-18” (2024): https://arxiv.org/html/2401.17594v1

“New radio (NR) positioning in the Third Generation Partnership Project (3GPP) Release 18 (Rel-18) enables 5G-advanced networks to achieve ultra-high accuracy positioning without dependence on global navigation satellite systems (GNSS)”

“Release 18 (Rel-18) NR pushes the boundaries even further, unlocking the potential for applications in 5G-Advanced networks that demand ultra-high positioning accuracy – down to centimeter-level (cm-level)” (emphasis mine)

echelon_musk3• 11 months ago

For a long time I've wanted something like Remote Desktop for my phone.

With the idea being that I use a second phone to connect to my main phone over the internet.

This lets the phone number you actually have associated with you stay in the same fixed geographical location.

E.g. all calls are initiated by the primary phone and tunnelled over the internet to the disposable phone.

Lammy5• 11 months ago

Get a Direct Inward Dialing (DID) number and a VoIP host that speaks SIP. Dunno about iOS, but Android has had native SIP support built in since Android 2.3 Gingerbread.

lotsofpulp• 11 months ago

How would this fool the network operator? Tmobile/ATT/Verizon will still know and be able to share your location.

rr808• 11 months ago

Google Voice probably works like this?

kotaKat2• 11 months ago

Could just set up a phone farm like the Chinese run. They've got fun little adapters and boxes to get full "remote" control of a phone. Could rig one up for your own application, or maybe a pseudo-phone-RDP setup.

https://ebay.us/ynkSLq

m3047• 11 months ago

I use Ooma VOIP service and you can forward calls to a different number (I use that occasionally). I don't use it but they also have an iOS / Android app which lets you make calls from your Ooma VOIP number. The FAQ says you can't call 911 with it, so that's smoke anyway.

https://support.ooma.com/home/ooma-app-faq/#can-i-make-emerg...

ethan_smith• 11 months ago

Beyond carrier opt-outs (which often have loopholes), you can physically block tracking by toggling airplane mode with WiFi enabled when possible, or using a signal-blocking Faraday bag for your phone during sensitive travel.

chii• 11 months ago

during sensitive travel.

if your location data is continuous, but happens to "switch off" when you're doing something sensitive, then it's like a blaring alarm that this is the period of time that is "sus". It gives any sort of LEA/feds a time period to investigate, and might even be the evidence they need for a search warrant.

Therefore, you should not just hide your signal only when you are doing sensitive things. You should periodically hide it going to groceries, going to the shops etc. You might want to do it regularly, as part of your daily life. Camouflage only works if it cannot be used to tell apart your activities.

aeon_ai• 11 months ago

Opt-out links by carrier:

ATT - https://www.att.com/consent/ccpa/dnsatt

T-Mobile: https://www.t-mobile.com/privacy-center --Access the Privacy Dashboard

Adjust the following privacy settings (toggle off as desired), per line/account: - Profiling and automated decisions (on by default) - Fraud and identity theft protection (shares account and usage info) - Sharing certain financial information (payment history, balances, etc.) - Analytics and reporting, Advertising options, and Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information

Verizon - Go to your MyVerizon Navigate to Account > Account Settings > Privacy Settings on the web; or tap the gear icon and choose Manage privacy settings in the app.

Locate the following tracking options: - Custom Experience - Custom Experience Plus - Business & Marketing Insights - CPNI (Customer Proprietary Network Information) and Identity Verification programs -For each, select "Don't Use" or toggle off to opt out

RajT882• 11 months ago

Just checked my T-Mobile privacy settings. I had most everything turned off, but then I saw a few were turned on (such as my opt-out marketing settings). Opting out of everything took 2 tries to have them all disabled (sludge).

This one was seemingly a new one, and makes the hairs on my neck go up:

Make your choice about profiling and automated decisions.

You can tell us not to use your personal data for certain kinds of "profiling" that we might do in the future. This toggle allows you to opt out of having profiling used for future decisions that produce legal or similarly significant effects about you. We don't use profiling to make these kinds of decisions now. Turning this "OFF" or gray means "opt out of profiling and automated decisions."

pixl97• 11 months ago

For some reason I cannot turn off the "Alert the Gestapo if I remain too close to an abortion clinic for too long option" on my account, says not available for Texas accounts.

natas2• 11 months ago

Honestly, it's border line impossible for common mortals, I can't opt out from certain marketing initiatives because I don't have the marketing ID? (with no indication on how to retrieve it) I live in Washington, USA.

segmondy• 11 months ago

Mark the accounts as kids account, they will not collect data till the birthday on the account turns 18. Pick any recent month and 2025 and you get 17+yrs of minimal data collection. They won't turn it on for new data sharing options.

qingcharles• 11 months ago

Any idea how this works for MVNOs?

Lammy5• 11 months ago

I am also wondering this since I have a LTE-enabled camera with prepaid data on the Mint MVNO (four capital letters 𝅘𝅥𝅮) running on T-Mobile's network. My Mint account settings has no privacy controls at all, and their privacy policy only mentions “location” in terms of GeoIP while browsing their website and in terms of E911 access if you dial emergency services: https://www.mintmobile.com/privacy-policy/

I found this “Ultra Mobile and Mint Mobile – Policies regarding Geolocation Data” <https://docs.fcc.gov/public/attachments/DOC-386591A1.pdf> that mentions third-party sharing, but it's a little dated (2022):

“Describe the arrangements, agreements, and circumstances in which Ultra Mobile and Mint Mobile share subscriber geolocation data with third parties that are not law enforcement.

None. The enhanced 911 process provides subscriber geolocation from the cell phone in the event of a 911 call, but it is not controlled by Ultra or Mint Mobile. Neither Ultra nor Mint Mobile provide geolocation data to any third parties.”

What this doesn't answer, however, is what T-Mobile are doing with Mint customers' location data. I have to assume they're selling everything they can and that's why the MVNO is so cheap compared to the main brand lol

bix6• 11 months ago

Is Verizon Identity Verification necessary at all? It says it helps 3rd parties prevent identity theft but I’m curious how true / necessary that is?

varenc• 11 months ago

digression: I use Google Fi as my carrier but it's an MVNOs that's largely on T-Mobile. I don't believe Google Fi is selling my location data (they already know it via other ways), but since it runs on the T-Mobile network, they might still be able to? But since I lack a T-Mobile account there's no way to opt out.

Anyway know the story on location selling + Google Fi? Or with MVNOs in general.

zbjornson• 11 months ago

"Google Fi users are not subject to T-Mobile's collection and sale of app data." From the first expandable question on https://support.google.com/fi/answer/6181037?hl=en#zippy=%2C....

jchw• 11 months ago

While Google Fi users don't seem to be subject to T-Mobile's data collection, you might still want to go into Google Fi's "Privacy & security" section and opt out of "Allow CPNI sharing".

SoftTalker• 11 months ago

Why do we believe these settings make any difference whatsoever?

ryanwhitney• 11 months ago

Wow, yep, thanks for that.

I was certain I had disabled all of these through the normal t-mobile dashboard, but sure enough there were about 5 still enabled including the “sell my personal information” ones. Ouch.

jonbiggums22• 11 months ago

They probably just add new ones with updates to keep ahead of you.

Lammy5• 11 months ago

I did a cross-continent drive last month with my T-Mobile US phone and got a rude awakening of how real-time this is when the “source” area codes of all the spammy phone calls followed me from state to state.

e: I thought I had opted out of everything that was opt-out-able in TMo's privacy settings <https://www.t-mobile.com/privacy-center/dashboard/controls> years ago when I first set up my line/account, but I just checked again and more than half of the settings were enabled. Hate that I have to be in the habit of looking for new settings that default to enabled.

pavel_lishin2• 11 months ago

Weird! 99% of my spam calls come from the same area code as my cellphone number.

Terr_• 11 months ago

I think they mean scammers have adapted to targeting the area-codes your phone appears to be located now, as opposed to (just) the area code where you originally got your phone number.

For a lot of people the difference won't be apparent, because they haven't moved.

gkoz• 11 months ago

How are the economics supposed to work here? Is the data so cheap they can get everyone's location several times a day despite having no need for it? What's in it for the carrier then?

saltcured• 11 months ago

I relocated during the pandemic and brought my existing (Los Angeles area code) number to the SF Bay Area with Mint Mobile. I really don't get local area code spam after five years. The few calls that do happen, I can trace by topic back to local business interactions I've had.

I'm not sure whether to think the Mint MVNO on T-Mobile is better about privacy than T-Mobile. Or do you have some phone apps that are really the guilty party linking your phone number to your travel locations...?

stronglikedan• 11 months ago

I got barely any spam calls on Tmo, but I recently switched away and am crying for mercy. They have an opt-in service that prevents 90% of them from reaching your phone, and it's free. ATT has a similar one. I wish Consumer Cellular did, and I'm almost thinking about going back to big carrier prices for big carrier features like that.

ycombinatornews• 11 months ago

This! I did a long drive last week and was surprised that spam calls knew exactly the area code I was in. Realtime …

Chilling realization

radicaldreamer• 11 months ago

Is it possible that some background app is polling and selling this info rather than your carrier?

xyst2• 11 months ago

What would it take to disrupt the oligopoly of limited carriers in the USA? I feel this type of behavior will continue with minimal repercussions. Maybe a slap on the wrist.

FCC, whether intentional or unintentional, through their controlled access to wireless spectrum has made it near impossible for smaller players to disrupt them.

I know "MVNOs" exist but they just resell the spectrum/network from the big 3 carriers in the USA.

jacquesm3• 11 months ago

A very large amount of capital, a substantial fraction of which you will be wasting on lobbying and financing the parties that managed to get spectrum allocated before you thought of this.

xyst2• 11 months ago

So next step is: breaking up the big 3, then.

If you have to lobby, then may as well attack them head on. Unfortunately, I think the current administration will _not_ help with this.

xp842• 11 months ago

Don’t underestimate how cheap it actually is to buy politicians. A lot of Trump’s “big donors” who received billions of dollars worth of windfalls from his moves last term, were donors of a few million. Congress, too. Politicians are a very cheap investment compared to say, laying fiber covering a single metro area.

Spooky235• 11 months ago

Now that the president has king-like powers, a different governing coalition as the MAGA breaks up or we have some sort of conflict that resets some of the politics.

The government can break up the phone companies into regional carriers. The market doesn't have the power to do anything, as the government controls the spectrum allocation.

tm0• 11 months ago

EchoStar/DISH-owned Boost Mobile is the fourth carrier, cleaved off of Sprint by Ajit Pai and co during the T-Mobile/Sprint merger process; DISH now claims it is able to provide coverage to 70% of the population in the US.

The problem is EchoStar/DISH are saddled with debt and Boost still uses its agreements with AT&T to throw at least some customers on AT&T coverage instead of its own.

thfuran2• 11 months ago

Infrastructure like this is pretty much the textbook example of natural monopoly. We just need to decouple the tower infrastructure from the consumer service providers. And, of course, have actual privacy protections.

scyzoryk_xyz2• 11 months ago

An "oh shit" moment where folks find themselves in a concentration camp because of data leaked from their devices would probably do the trick.

Now I don't actually have the knowledge but isn't something like the FCC partially there to ensure that this sector continues evolving in the same direction as any ol' utility?

Anyhow, I'm writing this from the EU where we actually have effective GDPR regulation. Fines for crossing that line are more than just wrist slaps. Outside of that somewhat similar on that oligopoly telecom front.

Nextgrid4• 11 months ago

effective GDPR regulation. Fines for crossing that line are more than just wrist slaps.

Yeah the GDPR is only effective on paper. In practice, the enforcement of it is near non-existent. It is and has always been more profitable to breach the GDPR than comply with it.

semiquaver• 11 months ago

  > The carriers did not verify whether buyers obtained customer consent, the ruling said.

I know this whole business is a series of fictions about consent, but what does this even mean? How would buyers of my location data obtain my consent before buying it? Surely it would be the sellers (the carriers themselves) who would be responsible for obtaining permission to sell.

T-Mobile claimed selling location data without consent is legal–judges disagree

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