US pauses all federal aid and grants

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c77rdy6gzy5o

by miohtama • 1 year ago

319 442 1 year ago

It will mean missed payrolls and rent payments and everything in between: chaos for everything from universities to non-profit charities

I'm all for reigning in government spending and our unprecedented deficit, but not sure throwing a stick of dynamite into the grant office is the best approach.

kccoder3• 1 year ago

Which is something many americans should've realized before re-electing a chaos monkey with a heart of stone.

nine_zeros• 1 year ago

It looks like the majority of voting Americans don't care about anything as long as they get to own the other side.

In many ways, Americana seem to be voting for the country to devolve into anarchy.

watwut2• 1 year ago

I think that many of them genuinely want the chaos and destruction. Unrelated to that, they see this as a rational money saving measure. If you look at intentional harm and destruction that saves nothing but only harms, Trump voters love it too.

mywittyname4• 1 year ago

I'm all for reigning in government spending and our unprecedented deficit,

My bold prediction: the deficit will continue to grow at record levels.

vdupras• 1 year ago

Not for a long time. We'll keep firing economists in charge until the reported deficit is satisfactory.

mcmcmc• 1 year ago

More tax cuts for the rich sure won’t help either

EasyMark2• 1 year ago

This is what happens when an entire nation votes for a pure agent of chaos who has a highly questionable moral code and is easily proven a liar over and over again if he speak for more than 2 minutes. Now only check and balances in the US government can hold back the worst of it. I would have loved to have a new government auditing/ROI office open up and start review departments, instead they started using a sledgehammer to fix the leaks in the plumbing.

llamaimperative5• 1 year ago

An “entire nation” didn’t vote for him. He won less than a third of eligible voters.

He does not have the mandate from the electorate that he claims, so let’s stop acting like he does.

m463• 1 year ago

I recall the steve jobs method of figuring out if people are good employees... He tells their coworkers "I heard so-and-so is shit", and if the person is loudly defended, he might be ok. If not, he might not be that good.

Maybe this is a way of doing the same thing. If people defend funding something strongly, it might deserve it, and if not...

TrackerFF3• 1 year ago

Impeachment speedrun.

First the inspectors general firing, and now this - which seems to be illegal impoundment?

lupusreal• 1 year ago

Not giving money to researchers is hardly a criminal matter. Of course some congressmen could propose impeachment anyway, pretty sure some already have, but they don't have the numbers to kick him out of office so it's just posturing for their constituents.

TrackerFF3• 1 year ago

Well, at this rate, and by his actions, Trump is basically telling congress to get f'ed.

Tadpole91813• 1 year ago

Executive impoundment is explicitly illegal and unconstitutional, actually. The president does not have the power of the purse, that's congress.

ActionHank3• 1 year ago

Who will enforce the law against him?

dmix• 1 year ago

There's a long list of EOs that have been overturned by courts.

rbanffy22• 1 year ago

JD Vance might be his insurance policy. I can easily imagine him being even worse.

dllthomas2• 1 year ago

Absent context, I think there's a reasonable argument to be made. Remember, though, that we're comparing a JD Vance who was recently impressed with the importance of following the rules with a Trump recently impressed by the opposite.

throw0101d3• 1 year ago

Impeachment speedrun.

An impeachment of a GOP president, by a GOP House and GOP Senate? With one of the GOP reps trying to give him a third term:

* https://ogles.house.gov/media/press-releases/rep-ogles-propo...

* https://www.cnbc.com/2025/01/23/trump-third-term-amendment-c...

Sure.

The GOP are now basically accomplices.

rbanffy22• 1 year ago

I am sure at least some of them know right from wrong. It'd be a tragedy if representatives were loyal to a president over the country.

tehwebguy• 1 year ago

Plus it’s not like there are Democrats doing anything to fight it.

ahmeneeroe-v254• 1 year ago

So the Executive and majorities in both houses of the Legislative branch are all aligned? How does that make them "accomplices" and not just a valid government doing governance?

nerdjon2• 1 year ago

Since it isn’t clear what exactly will be stopped here.

Some of these could hurt the districts with republican representation the most. Like food stamps, unemployment, and similar. So maybe something this stupid will wake people up?

A lot of other policies could be twisted so trump isn’t directly blamed. This is… pretty cut and dry if you suddenly stop getting money you rely on.

So maybe it’s actually possible? One can hope.

Loughla5• 1 year ago

I have zero faith. Republicans in those districts will find a way to spin this, and the people will eat it up.

Maybe I'm just too cynical anymore but I have almost no faith in the American electorate.

silverquiet2• 1 year ago

Donald Trump could do truly terrible things that I will not list because I would be accused of hysteria and the GOP would not impeach, let along convict him. The only sin I can imagine they would not forgive is to raise taxes on the wealthy. It's going to be a long, strange four years, and perhaps more.

xtracto2• 1 year ago

So, I'm not American and have just seen all the Trump circus from afar in the las 10 years.

But... hasn't Donald Trump ready been impeached, trialed, found guilty of several crimes, several times with total impunity?

Like, at.this point from here it seems he can do as he pleases. He could very well shoot someone and he will get away with it.

The only hope for the US as a country is some kind of natural disaster (heart attack , stroke or similar).

Eddy_Viscosity2• 1 year ago

Even if he was impeached (he won't be), then its DJ Vance, who will just continue the playbook. Looking at the next 6 people in the presidential line of succession, everyone on of them would be fully onboard with keeping this up.

rsanek• 1 year ago

nothing new. Reagan fired 15 IGs too soon after his 1981 inauguration

ahmeneeroe-v254• 1 year ago

Nope. Congress destroyed the power of the impeachment in Trump's first term.

adrianmonk• 1 year ago

He promised months back that he would challenge the impoundment law. He claims it's unconstitutional.

See: https://www.npr.org/2024/11/26/nx-s1-5195528/trump-impoundme...

So presumably he wants this to go to the Supreme Court. If the court rule against him, then Congress's authority is preserved, so I doubt they will impeach him. If the court rules in his favor, then I doubt they'd impeach him over something the court agrees with him on.

bagels6• 1 year ago

It doesn't matter, they won't vote to remove. Even actual treason wasn't enough last time.

kobalsky• 1 year ago

Impeachment speedrun.

do you think Trump is playing this by ear? this term is unique because he has an experienced team that has already served one term, they are aware of what comes after leaving office, they had 4 years to plan ahead, and they can blame the previous administration for a lot of stuff.

if Trump was going to serve two terms anyway, this is the worst-case scenario for democrats.

exe344• 1 year ago

[flagged]

ActionHank3• 1 year ago

Not weaken, destroy.

rbanffy22• 1 year ago

No intelligence agency would enlist him. He can't keep secrets.

DFHippie10• 1 year ago

A stick of dynamite can't keep secrets either but it does its job.

silverquiet2• 1 year ago

"My goal is to cut government in half in twenty-five years, to get it down to the size where we can drown it in the bathtub."

This was said by Grover Norquist, a thought leader amongst Republicans in the early 2010's. I've always thought that China or Russia would appreciate being able to drown us in a bathtub as well.

throw0101c5• 1 year ago

Grover Norquist

See:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starve_the_beast

dragonwriter4• 1 year ago

This was said by Grover Norquist, a thought leader amongst Republicans in the early 2010's.

Norquist actually said that in 2001, not the early 2010s.

p3rls• 1 year ago

I thought we tried this last time, didn't we?

dragonwriter4• 1 year ago

He has much more conplete control of fhe Republican Party and, fhrough that, much less practical constraint in both policy and personnel this time, so this Administration reflects his will and intentions much more purely than did his first.

ModernMech17• 1 year ago

Doesn’t really matter at this point. But if he were, he would not be behaving any differently.

rsynnott2• 1 year ago

Never attribute to malice that which can adequately be explained by stupidity, and all that.

Like, I've no doubt that Putin is very happy that he was elected, and the FSB and GRU probably put their finger on the scale to at least some extent, but it's probably more a case of a convenient idiot than a Manchurian candidate.

exe344• 1 year ago

Never attribute to malice that which can adequately be explained by stupidity, and all that.

that only applies when you have a flat prior. stupidity should be random - one action moves the needle one way, another action moves it back and you have an average of zero. when every action moves the needle the same way and somebody benefits from it, there's something going on.

dang4• 1 year ago

"Eschew flamebait. Avoid generic tangents."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

(We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42851328.)

cjrp2• 1 year ago

Given the spending that is now on hold was apportioned by Congress, it is likely this will face legal challenges about the scope of presidential power.

So, how quickly will this be overturned?

nappy-doo2• 1 year ago

Have you met the current congress? They have to care first.

cjrp2• 1 year ago

Is it up to congress though? Not the Supreme Court?

dragonwriter4• 1 year ago

This assumes that they are the only party with standing to sue, which is not likely the case. (Previous rulings on the lack of the authority of the executive to withhold appropriated funds have come in suits by intended recipients.) Both private parties (nonprofits and businesses) [1] and a group of 23 states [2] have already filed suit over the order.

[1] https://www.reuters.com/legal/non-profits-health-groups-sue-...

[2] https://oag.ca.gov/news/press-releases/attorney-general-bont...

EDIT:

And it has been blocked, for now: https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump-pause-federal-grants...

DFHippie10• 1 year ago

How quickly did any of the Trump trials conclude?

addandsubtract• 1 year ago

They concluded pretty quickly once he won the election.

dragonwriter4• 1 year ago

The cases don't have to conclude to get a binding interim order (preliminary injunction) blocking the action.

pards• 1 year ago

He's rapidly trending into dictator territory

rbanffy22• 1 year ago

Hardly a surprise.

roland35• 1 year ago

It seems to be what people wanted!

rbanffy22• 1 year ago

This is the most disheartening part of it all. I have immense respect for the ideals that formed the United States, but I'm increasingly in doubt about the actual implementation.

matthewdgreen5• 1 year ago

It is not what he campaigned on, nor what the majority of voters wanted. Not once did I hear “we are going to shut down clinical trials so your loved ones die.” I did hear a lot about grocery prices, which certainly aren’t going down because of this.

mapt• 1 year ago

Most people that voted for him either weren't paying attention to the clips you and I saw of what he said he wanted to do, or didn't believe him.

People in the right-wing media ecosystem are not presented with anything that might threaten their image of their politicians.

FollowingTheDao7• 1 year ago

No, he is not. Many of these are ordinary powers that could have been used by any president.

When he comes for the military, Supreme Court, and Congress, that is the trend you want to look for.

Over-exaggerating what Trump does plays into his handbook.

DFHippie10• 1 year ago

Refusing to execute laws passed by Congress is not an ordinary power.

nappy-doo2• 1 year ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YFdwfNh5vs

n144q• 1 year ago

Not so fast.

Given the spending that is now on hold was apportioned by Congress, it is likely this will face legal challenges about the scope of presidential power.

hypeatei3• 1 year ago

When he comes for... Congress

What are your opinions on January 6th? That would include both the fake electors plot and the riot attempting to interrupt congressional proceedings.

lawn2• 1 year ago

January 6th, where he was found guilty but didn't receive punishment because he's above the law.

Oh and he's already started firing people from the military...

Shrugging the shoulders is what lead us here, and you keep doing it.

TrackerFF3• 1 year ago

I'd hate to compare Trump to Hitler, but many forget that Hitler and the National Socialist Party came to power completely by legal means - truly a feat of political engineering.

And furthermore, they were on the brink of total failure many, many times - but always managed to get a lifeline by the actions of indifferent politicians and statesmen - many whom could have stopped them, by simply saying no. They (NSDAP) could not believe what they managed to get away with, and the sheer luck they had.

What we're seeing now is sort of parallel to that, in the way that the people that do care, simply do not seem to take action. Maybe it's the fear of being primaried, maybe it's the fear of personal retribution, maybe they just don't want to rock the boat.

rbanffy22• 1 year ago

The playbook is to slowly destroy the limits of power. First step is to bombard the opposition with a flurry of orders that will need to be questioned. Some will be, but some will stick. Rinse and repeat and, the next time, orders could be more extreme. By then, they'll be harder to stop, either because you are still fighting the first round, or because there is no one left to question the next.

There is already plenty reason to be concerned.

amazingamazing3• 1 year ago

I don't like Trump, but many of the things he is doing technically could have been exercised a long time ago. Fortunately (or unfortunately) decorum was generally a thing, so said powers were not exercised.

Now we will see the extent to which these powers can, and should be used. The way the USA is supposed to work is a balance of executive, legislative and judicial powers. The problem mainly is that the legislative branch refuses to compromise and do anything. The judicial and executive branches seem to be taking the lead, with the executive, that is the president, at the helm.

I expect even the conservative Supreme Court to rule against most of the recent activity, though. Especially the 14th amendment stuff.

rbanffy22• 1 year ago

I expect even the conservative Supreme Court to rule against most of the recent activity, though. Especially the 14th amendment stuff.

This is a test I'm eager to see, but I'm not very hopeful about it.

godshatter• 1 year ago

My cynical take on this is that he's shaking everything up on "day 1"-ish because that's what the people who funded him want and giving them what they want right after the election hits big and will secure more funding. I wouldn't be surprised if he's expecting all of these changes to be shot down and whatnot but doesn't care because they'll have forgotten all about it soon enough but they will remember this last week or so.

csomar• 1 year ago

The most important detail (the amount) is being left. Is this just a few dollars (in terms of the US budget) or a sizable portion? How is the money split between the different categories?

drewbug01• 1 year ago

Those details aren’t known; because the order is so broad and vague. That’s part of the problem.

Tadpole91813• 1 year ago

Have you read it, it's downright insane. "Marxist", "woke", etc. it carves out an exception for Medicare and Social Security, but that's literally it. Even things like Pell grants, food stamps, and Medicaid are up in the other because the wording here is that bad.

So, as of this order, the US just had an ~$3 the trillion drop in GDP. Much of it to research and nonprofits.

absolutelastone• 1 year ago

Not literally: "Medicare and Social Security benefits will not be affected, nor will any programme "that provides direct benefits to individuals", including Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, known as SNAP or food stamps, the White House said."

I guess the article or link has been updated?

ajsnigrutin2• 1 year ago

[flagged]

FollowingTheDao7• 1 year ago

People who can compartmentalize like this see to me to be on the fringe of sociopathy.

rbanffy22• 1 year ago

Everything in a society IS politics. From deciding where we order dinner from, to which framework we'll build upon. Politics is how groups decide on issues that affect all individuals in the group.

Absence of politics is an illusion. They'll still affect you regardless of you wanting to see it or not.

miningape• 1 year ago

I'm so tired of this line of reasoning, please dissect the political implications of wiping my ass backwards instead of forwards.

Using such a broad definition dilutes the term to the point of meaninglessness.

mardifoufs2• 1 year ago

Not everything is american politics though. It does get tiring to hear about American politics non stop. We aren't talking about general social issues here, but about American politics. I wouldn't want to hear about Chinese local politics non stop either, and I don't think a lot of people browsing Hn would.

ajsnigrutin2• 1 year ago

I mean sure... so is asphalt, roads, plumbing, toilets, etc. Most of us here use the bahtroom more often than we think about politics, especially american ones, so do we post plumbing questions here too? I mean... no working toilet would be a bigger problem for most individuals at that moment than whatever trump does.

palmfacehn• 1 year ago

Even the assertion of anti-politics and private property is in itself a political statement. This doesn't mean that we shouldn't be able to have non-political dinner conversations or discuss the latest releases on HN.

Loughla5• 1 year ago

Do you think politics doesn't or won't impact tech?

Kye2• 1 year ago

So much of what these grants fund lead directly to a Show HN or an IPO announcement down the line. That line is now cut. If this can't pass the "unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon" test, what does?

xtracto2• 1 year ago

I agree with you because I'm not from the US. I understand HN is a page from California, so US centric themes.are most likely to pop up. But I do prefer to consume my US dose of politics circus from elsewhere.

amazingamazing3• 1 year ago

Ignoring the legality of this, I don't really see what this is trying to accomplish. Even if the spending is not in line with Trump's priorities, it's not like he can unilaterally change the budget (of course, that's not stopping him...).

One silver lining of this madness is I expect bipartisan support for clarifying and codifying the scope of executive power into law at some point in the future (sadly likely after Trump is long gone, though).

Loughla5• 1 year ago

I expect bipartisan support for clarifying and codifying the scope of executive power into law

Absolutely not going to happen.

Trump Republicans want him to function more like a supreme executive/king instead of a president with controls on his power.

Other Republicans are too scared of losing their jobs to stop this either.

Democrats do better with an enemy, so they actually have a perverse incentive here.

If we make it through this mess with our democracy intact, I will definitely be surprised. I hope I'm being dramatic, but I'm afraid I'm not.

amazingamazing3• 1 year ago

We'll see but I believe you're probably wrong. This particular action, e.g. federal aid pause, will affect people from all states. The constitutes will be rightly angry and threaten their congressmen, which will result in the outcome I mentioned earlier.

mywittyname4• 1 year ago

I don't really see what this is trying to accomplish.

Chaos power grab.

There is no silver lining here. The USA fell gradually, then all at once. It's over, done. We lost.

DFHippie10• 1 year ago

We hired someone to manage our obligations who was famous for signing contracts and then stiffing his contractors. It makes perfect sense that, once freed from underlings who were loyal to anyone or anything but him, he would continue this practice.

All the entities that were receiving those grants and aid have already obligated it. They have rented office space, hired employees, purchased equipment. And all of the entities they have contracted with using this money have done the same. If they have to dissolve, they won't be there to start up again if the courts manage to compel the administration to execute the laws as written. (And Trump is also famous for protracted lawsuits which he wins by default when some deadline has passed.) Closed storefronts don't tend to open with the same business.

I don't mind when rich fools learn hard lessons. Their self-esteem drops but their quality of life doesn't. It sucks when poor people are the blackboard on which this hard lesson is written.

hypeatei3• 1 year ago

Medicaid and Social Security benefits are not affected

That's disappointing, I wonder why those aren't getting paused? If you want to get spending under control and you're already breaking the law then you might as well stop everything.

matthewdgreen5• 1 year ago

Because no Republican would ever be elected to national office ever again?

rbanffy22• 1 year ago

I don't think societies have such long attention spans, or the rationality, to follow through that.

throw0101c5• 1 year ago

Because no Republican would ever be elected to national office ever again?

People regularly vote against their own interest out of spite:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dying_of_Whiteness

hypeatei3• 1 year ago

Sorry if it wasn't clear, but that was a rhetorical question. We all know why they don't do it: because a significant percentage of their voter base are boomers who rely on that stuff.

anonymousab2• 1 year ago

You severely underestimate Trump, the GOP and a tamed media and tech industry's ability to spin things as the Democrats' fault.

They can also trivially rig elections by just organizing things to criminalize the majority of your opponents, but that's overkill.

At the end of the day, their win was total and permanent. There are no realistic fears of reelection issues to ever worry about.

rbanffy22• 1 year ago

All that is a rounding error next to military spending. You want the deficit under control, cut military spending.

lotsofpulp6• 1 year ago

This is completely wrong:

https://fiscaldata.treasury.gov/americas-finance-guide/feder...

Military spend is less than 20% (combination of “Defense” and “Veterans Benefits and Services”). Some of the Vererans benefits and services are old age healthcare and defined benefit pension, so that can get subtracted from military spend and moved over to social security and Medicare (since it would happen anyway regardless of military spend).

Social security, Medicare, Medicaid m, and other healthcare subsidies are 21% + 14% + 13% = 47%.

Income security is another 9%, like food stamps, social security supplemental income, earned income tax credits, all stuff for lower income/wealth households.

So 60% of US federal government spend is welfare. Less than 20% is military. 13% is interest costs. And the remaining ~7% is for everything else.

greentxt• 1 year ago

"everything from development assistance to military aid."

Was written twice. I appreciated that.

benterix• 1 year ago

I don't understand one thing.

Why is this submission flagged?

basementcat3• 1 year ago

Also, why is this not on the front page? This has over 110 points while a post about OpenVMS on the front page has 34 points.

While I agree that OpenVMS is cool, I think the fate of over 20 million lives (due to the suspension of PEPFAR) deserves more weight than an obscure 50 year old operating system.

dang4• 1 year ago

why is this not on the front page? This has over 110 points while a post about OpenVMS on the front page has 34 points.

This question, phrased in the general case, is in the FAQ: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html. (Look for "Why is A ranked below B even though A has more points and is newer?")

In the present case, users flagged it and it set off the flamewar detector. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42857139.

tredre3• 1 year ago

Simple: many (perhaps even most?) visitors take the name "hacker news" literally and are not interested in discussing socioeconomic news. At least not on this forum.

jeanlucas• 1 year ago

I am not the one who flagged it, but here's probably why: users feels this is off topic.

Overall as a non-american HN to me is a technical forum.

I know everything involves politics, but I honestly don't come to HN to know about about the US budget Federal decisions.

basementcat3• 1 year ago

Whether we like it or not, US federal budget decisions impact NASA, Fermilab, academic AI researchers and the health of over 20 million people suffering from AIDS (among many many others).

scarecrowbob• 1 year ago

I see this form of thought here a lot.

The general gist of it is "well, everyone else likes this so you should be okay with it too". Usually the person arguing in that direction is one of "everyone else".

I've never found it super convincing.

Personally, I don't actually think that the technical discourse here is super great- occasionally I see things from highly knowledgeable folks, but a lot of the time it's just hacks out a hackin.

HN is a forum run by venture capitalists and folks who are tied to that either aspirationally or professionally.

I get a lot of information about how that group of folks thinks from this site, and I find it helpful in understanding their affect on the world I live in.

You're welcome to have whatever preferences you have for the site, but it's not how I have been interacting with it for the last decade.

To the point about flagging, I am always surprised how willing folks are to believe that every other social media algo is gamed, but just assumed that there is no manipulation going on with their own media consumption.

I mean, go write a bot to flag stuff using ghost accounts, I don't care- I get my "HN front page" from a set of search terms, which will show a lot of dead and flagged content. It's pretty trivial to see what happens if you're looking to know that kind of thing, and other folks have written at least two tracking systems I know of for killed HN content.

I can totally buy that the reality of empire and its internal contradictions are uncomfortable enough for the tech bros that seem to make up the most of the site. The idea that they reflexively repress anything "political" sounds reasonable.

That doesn't seem like a great premise, but I buy it better than the idea that I should be beholden to that same ideal in my use of the site.

kergonath• 1 year ago

Overall as a non-american HN to me is a technical forum.

As a non-American, this is massive on its own, and could be absolutely world-changing depending on how it evolves. The US are where they are thanks to a great brain drain, powered by both industry and government money. Messing with this will have consequences, particularly coupled with visa restrictions. Or not, if Trump flip-flops once more. In any case, this is very important news for any technology- or science-adjacent field, including health and medicine.

leotravis10• 1 year ago

I think you and I know why at this point. HN and YC as a whole are all in on this administration[1]. It's the reason why it's going to get censored.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42774698

dang4• 1 year ago

I think you and I know why at this point.

I know it's satisfying, but that's a risky way to think if you care about the truth.

Users flagged the submission and it also set off the flamewar detector, a,k.a. the overheated discussion detector.

No mods or admins touched this post. , or even saw it until someone sent an email about it. Then I turned off the flags and the flamewar penalty.

zo12• 1 year ago

As someone that is in that cohort I think you are alluding to, I see just as much "anti-right" or "anti" or "anti Trump" type actions when it comes to flagging and downvotes. It's not at all obvious to me that one side owns the narrative here and only one set of ideas / directions are promoted or censored.

I have to be very careful in my support for the "wrong" side in touchy topics lest I be down-voted and flooded with low-effort jabs by frankly very smart and knowledgeable people. These people can bash me with their "intelligence" despite them many times being wrong or not understanding my point or seeing that we have simply have different principles manifesting in different views. This transcends tech, politics and any other realm we regularly discuss here.

latexr2• 1 year ago

HN and YC as a whole are all in on this administration[1]

You made it sound like you were linking to evidence, but it’s just another post by yourself making the same unsubstantiated claim. That’s worth nothing. If anything, dang has shown over time they avoid silencing these discussions, it’s obvious users are the flaggers.

hooverd• 1 year ago

There's a joke around the orange website in here somewhere.

r00fus2• 1 year ago

Because digg-style "bury brigades" are still a thing.

93po• 1 year ago

I flagged stuff like this because there's no real curious conversation to be had, it's not interesting in a technical way, it's unrelated to hacking and startups, and basically just incites lazy dog-piling that, while I don't disagree with it, is not interesting to read for me. I will go to reddit if I want to read that sort of commenting.

basementcat3• 1 year ago

Over 20 million lives are at risk after the PEPFAR program was suspended. Within a few weeks viral loads will return to pretreatment levels again. This is a human caused public health catastrophe.

https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/...

ahmeneeroe-v254• 1 year ago

Why are US taxpayers on the hook for this?

Clamchop2• 1 year ago

Less disease in the world benefits everyone. Very much a social good.

It makes me a little sad just reading your criticism.

pedalpete• 1 year ago

Because you want people to pay in US dollars, buy US goods and pharmaceuticals.

You wanted everyone to admire the US and exported the American dream to be the ideal of the world.

Why is it important for America to enforce freedom in every oil rich country - apparently even Canada now!

You can take a "mission accomplished" stance and be done with it, but if America wants to maintain it's standing in the world, these sorts of programs will need to continue.

Without the US footing the bill for this, China will come in with Chinese aid, and teach these countries how to adopt the Chinese ideology.

sangnoir4• 1 year ago

American soft power enables a multitude of benefits to US taxpayers, but as a higher-order effect. Leaders who only apply first-order thinking will disrupt complex systems without understanding them.

r00fus2• 1 year ago

Because it's enlightened self-interest. I personally love paying taxes that go to these functions because they keep people in homes and off streets, they keep people from dying early.

You may like the stench of death and despair all around you - I sure don't want to live in that world.

vharuck2• 1 year ago

Because their duly elected representatives, senators, and president agreed on the bills that included this money. Even if everyone said "We elected the new president to specifically stop all health funding," the Constitution doesn't let him do that alone. Congress has to do it. We can't even get to debating the merits of bills until people agree on a system for the government to write, debate, agree on, and carry them out.

laurent_du• 1 year ago

People are piling on you because they have no sound argument. I admire you for keeping your cool.

esbranson2• 1 year ago

Would this be some sort of A/B testing of humanity with and without America? Sincerely hope you're wrong.

bastawhiz• 1 year ago

What would the hypothesis even be? "If we stop providing aid, will people die?" That's outrageous and generously gives them the benefit of the doubt that they're being ignorant rather than greedy.

ChrisArchitect• 1 year ago

Earlier: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42849061

hintymad• 1 year ago

Is the title true, though? I thought OMB paused funding to NGOs, foreign governments and large discretionary contracts, but the pause explicitly excluded all aids and benefit programs.

And how many NGOs have become too powerful and too meaningless and even detrimental to the US? I simply don't see aligned incentives. For instance, the more homeless are on the street, the more funding an NGO gets. Then how will the NGO have any incentive at all to truly help the homeless? Similarly, the more illegal passing at the border, the more funding NGOs will get. Then, why would they help close the border at all?

DFHippie10• 1 year ago

I simply don't see aligned incentives. For instance, the more homeless are on the street, the more funding an NGO gets. Then how will the NGO have any incentive at all to truly help the homeless?

That assumes the NGOs, like for-profit corporations*, are motivated solely by funding. Have you ever worked for an NGO seeking to help the homeless? Do you know anyone who does? I assure you they are differently motivated from a big-tech CEO. They typically work to achieve a sense of purpose, not power boats.

* And of course for-profit corporations almost always have more motivations than just profit. Sometimes they even describe them to shareholders. Cynics label official motivations for a corporation other than profit as "virtue signaling", as though the corporation has both true and feigned feelings, but it has neither. And if the feelings of the officers, employees, and owners of the corporation align with its official "feelings" is immaterial, only whether progress towards the goals they motivate is measurable.

geenkeuse3• 1 year ago

Awesome conversation. Saner heads prevailed in this one. This is going to backfire very badly on the American people if it becomes the norm. Happy that supporters of this madness got their asses kicked out of here today.

robomartin3• 1 year ago

These discussions never seem to answer important questions.

If we never question taxation. And never question spending. Where do we end-up?

It is sustainable?

Why is it that we can never question either one of these things?

Are these things like fundamental laws of gravity?

Are politicians never to be questioned for their spending or desire to tax us more?

Or how they use our money?

Is it wrong to periodically evaluate the results obtained by every dollar spent?

If so, why?

Does that mean we should allow politicians and agencies to spend as they wish and without supervision or accountability?

Is there ever a good time for oversight?

Etc.

Today it was revealed that we were sending USD $50 million to Gaza for condoms. What? This is insane. And, I suspect, likely the tip of the iceberg.

C'mon folks. Questioning how our money is spent and how much money is taken from us by government is what we should be doing all the time. It should not be the exception. Without accountability, politicians (from all political angles) will take and spend as much as they are able to.

I have this hypothesis: If the government did not take taxes out of your paycheck every week and people had to write them a check every month, there would be riots in every city of this nation. People are blind to taxation and the related spending because they never see that money, it's magic money. You don't feel the pain. If you did, you'd be up in arms when you learn that $50MM of your dollars are going towards buying condoms on the other side of the planet.

And, BTW, those condoms are likely made in China. If they are needed, why doesn't China donate the condoms? Why do US taxpayers have to foot the bill and likely support a healthy profit margin in the process?

We are not going to end-up in a good place if we do not clean-up our attic and bring the house to order. I trust Elon/DOGE and, by extension, the current administration, to do just this. Enough is enough.

Put a different way: We DESPERATELY need to invest this money on internal growth, education, security, health, etc. We need housing, better health outcomes, much better education and myriad other things. Money is not unlimited. Instead of spending $50MM for condoms in Gaza, we should put that money to work where it will do the most good at home.

In order to know where and how much we are wasting, we need to put a microscope on everything and, perhaps, put a number of things on hold while we sort things out. It's a necessary part of the process.

rexpop2• 1 year ago

we were sending USD $50 million to Gaza for condoms.

This is a patently obvious and gross mischaracterization. The US has been providing a broad spectrum of humanitarian assistance addressing urgent needs such as emergency medical aid, food, water.

Whether or not you agree with that, you undermine our chances at constructive discourse when you exaggerate or otherwise decontextualize a situation.

It's also absurdly disingenuous to claim that "we never question taxation. And never question spending." Of course these concerns are the subject of continuous debate by much more serious people than yourself.

Again, whether or not you agree with the outcome, the assertion that "we never question taxation" is utterly, and completely divorced from reality.

zo12• 1 year ago

> we were sending USD $50 million to Gaza for condoms.
This is a patently obvious and gross mischaracterization.

Looks like it hasn't been confirmed yet, but let's not pretend like there aren't really odd and weird and arguably wasteful items in the US spending bills that serve no immediate purpose for US citizens.

Rand Paul releases a yearly report of some of the most prominent ones that he uncovers. I assume they're all hidden in thousand-page spending bills that make it through. These are the results of people that are really un-serious and I wouldn't trust them with our money, they're just drunk on the numbers. To them, a million here a million there is peanuts and essentially bargaining chips in the little games they play in senate/congress.

https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/media/reps/dr-paul-releases-202...

I'm busy reading the report now, but the summary notes:

"$4.8 million on Ukrainian influencers, $32,596 on breakdancing, $2.1 million for Paraguayan Border Security, $3 Million for ‘Girl-Centered Climate Action’ in Brazil, and much more!"

robomartin3• 1 year ago

you undermine our chances at constructive discourse when you exaggerate or otherwise decontextualize a situation.

You are proving my point. You have decided it is absurd to question anything. You have unilaterally decided what I said isn't true and whatever the hell you believe is, in fact, the only truth. Therefore, nothing to see here. Do not question authority. Do not question spending. Do not even bother to engage in any level of forensic accounting to see what's going on.

It's also absurdly disingenuous to claim that "we never question taxation. And never question spending."

You are also confusing politicians TALKING about taxation and spending with us DOING something about it. For all that debating, we throw money at (likely) millions of things we should not be funding at all. One of those categories is what I call "stupid foreign aid".

At the state level, things are not any better. Here in CA we have been duped by politicians into throwing money at a ridiculous high speed train that went from "We can build it for $10 billion" to now being somewhere over $130 billion and rising. They are saying it will require another $140 billion to complete. Here we are, nearly twenty years after voter passed a $10 billion dollar proposition and got nothing for it. This stupid thing will probably cost half a trillion dollars and will never attract enough riders to even approximate direct and indirect costs.

You have to wonder how many projects like this exist in the federal budget. Crap that is doing nothing but burning cash.

by much more serious people than yourself.

And then, having nothing to say, you resort to personal attacks. As if that is going to change reality in any way. Good for you.

We must kneel down, bow our heads and accept what we are told. Taxation is OK. Do no question it. Ever. Spending is OK. Do not question it. Ever.

Got it.

veqq• 1 year ago

Unrelated to this thread, what do you think about BQN and especially Uiua? For a decade, you lamented that APL was dead and nothing further developed notation qua tool of thought. I am curious if you see hope for the APL way today.

robomartin3• 1 year ago

Well, that's a twist in the conversation! :)

They are both very interesting attempts in support of the idea that notation can be important, or, as Iverson put it, a tool for thought.

That said, BQN is the language that, I think, could be said to be the more direct descendant of APL in every sense. It fixes some of APL's problems and expands functionality. UIUA, for example, is stack based, something that I am not sure is the right approach and certainly not the way APL operates.

As for the future, well, this is uncertain. Software engineers these days are not generally exposed to non-C-like languages in school. Languages such as Forth, APL and LISP are so rare to them that most have never heard of them. This, I think, is really unfortunate. Learning to think about solving problems computationally using different approaches is, in my opinion, invaluable. For example, if you studied APL, NumPy instantly makes sense and is easy to learn.

My guess is that lack of familiarity and closed minds (due to lack of exposure to diverse ideas) will always get in the way of adoption of notation-based computing.

There's another argument that is just as valid: If what we have today works well, there is little motivation to change. In other words, shifting to a notation-based system would have to deliver an unquestionable delta in value for it to make sense.

And then there's the age of AI-based programming. In an age when writing code might come down to writing specifications, the output language might be of little consequence outside of platform, performance and other metrics. Want performance? As the AI to deliver optimized C code. Want compatibility with a set of libraries/ecosystem at the expense of performance? You might ask for Python. Etc.

f1ay• 1 year ago

Memo source, though apparently two were released, one with later clarifications.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/documents/deb7af80-48b6-4b8a-... https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/25506191-omb-memo-1-...

Side note the OMB (agency issuing memo in question) website redirects straight to whitehouse.gov, which seemingly was not previously the case.

geenkeuse3• 1 year ago

With all the megabrains in here, how can some of you not see what's coming? China is making friends at the rate that the US is making enemies. Think about it for a second... Which new friends has the US made? I am talking solid, willing-to-give-you-the-middle-finger-and-go-with-the-other-guy friends (yeah, I know). Now contrast this to the friends China has made. China has secured the most powerful nation in each contested territory. South America, Africa, The Middle East and obviously, it is, itself the biggest power in Asia.

Now for effect, The US cannot even keep Europe aligned with them, and the fallout will be that much sharper in the next few years. You have bought cash money the sinking territories of Micronesia (great for UN votes, but not much else) What you have left is The English Speaking Conglomerate of USA, England (Not the UK - because I don't think you can count on Ireland, Scotland and Wales), Canada, Australia and New Zealand. And of these "Five Eyes", in a Sino-American conflict, two of them will be felled very quickly by their neighbour China (Australia and New Zealand) and Canada will have to fend off a massive assault by it's neighbour Russia (China's BFF) That leaves the original "greatest friendship". The enduring Anglo-American powerhouse.

Now I would think that England has not done itself any favours with Brexit. How is that going for them? So Europe is not a certain ally for them either. The EU is Europe, ask Turkey :-)

What you have left is an Anglo-American vs Sino-Russian battle for the future of humanity. The thing is the rest of humanity has already decided who they are betting on. Hint - It's not Anglo-America.

You Anglophones have managed to take control of 3 of the 6 continents. Is that not enough? And if it isn't then expect that there will be hell to pay, because at this point, the world will rather die on it's feet then endure more suffering under your boot.

Goeiedag en Dankie.

trinix912• 1 year ago

Additionally, raising the import customs for the EU is just going to alienate them even more. Some of the EU countries are already not favorable of the US, while others currently are but might no longer be. The whole Greenland thing is also not helping.

latexr2• 1 year ago

With all the megabrains in here

HN is just another social network, with a bias for programmers and tech enthusiasts. I enjoy it and believe it does a lot right to promote good discussion, but let’s not kid ourselves: there are no “megabrains” here, certainly not in any meaningful way. There are a ton of misguided people who think being passable at coding reveals some type of deeper understanding for how the world works, but that’s just hubris. HN is filled with flawed humans which, if anything, may have a bigger blind spot for their own limitations than most. Don’t idolise HN frequenters, we’re all just people here. People in a community who rightfully gets relentlessly made fun of in other corners or the internet precisely due to using terms like “megabrain” to describe its members.

hashishen• 1 year ago

i took it less as OP idolizing and more as a way to question the expertise of those in question. more often than not people who frequent this site are full of themselves due to being in these fields and living among those who are not, so referring to someone like that as intelligent while proving them wrong is necessary world view shattering statement

decide1000• 1 year ago

I believe this knowledge is more common in Europe, less in US. People have no idea what all those populist powermoves by Trump actually mean. I see the US as a fallen country.

To strengthen your statement, people in the US also seem to forget that China has done some major investments through the Belt and Road Initiative (BRI). It has secured influence in 150 countries through massive infrastructure projects (roads, railways, ports, digital networks).

The US is excluding itself from the world. Quite literally.

Goeiemoggel

ozmodiar• 1 year ago

As a Canadian, with the amount of unprovoked aggression coming from the USA and the turmoil being caused by even the threats of tariffs (yes, companies have to take into account that there might be tariffs and that causes chaos) let along if he actually does levy them, I would not count on Canada to be as close of an ally any longer. The writing is on the wall that we need to do everything we can to align away from the US. It's going to be hard and take time but even if Trump is gone 4 years from now we know how capricious and vindictive the American public can be.

Most Canadians would like to strengthen our bonds with the EU, but unfortunately I think it's going to mean getting pretty cozy with China as you said. No I don't think China is better than the US but the world is getting a wakeup call for how stupid it was to put all our eggs in one basket. From now on having any one partner dominate to the degree the US has is going to be seen as a huge weakness.

ChoGGi• 1 year ago

The first quarterly profits of the White House will be improved.

Businessmen do enjoy their short-term gains afterall.

geenkeuse3• 1 year ago

So true. In for a penny, in for a pound. Until their money printer breaks down under the sheer weight of their lunacy.

US pauses all federal aid and grants

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