On 17th century "cocaine"

https://resobscura.substack.com/p/on-17th-century-cocaine

by benbreen • 2 years ago

161 209 2 years ago

resobscura.substack.com

mastazi2• 2 years ago

Can anyone with a scientific background give an opinion about the first comment to the linked post? They say they are sceptical because "there are a number of Tropane alkaloids which are very close to cocaine and are present in other plants - especially nightshades (e.g., belladonna) - which were known to and used for various purposes by Europeans for a long time."

Etheryte• 2 years ago

As you would expect, this is covered in the actual paper [0]:

Therefore, the 3rd molecule detected in the brain tissues of our subjects, hygrine (an alkaloid present in the leaves of Erythroxylum spp. only), was essential to determine that the molecules detected in these human remains derived from the chewing of coca leaves or from leaves brewed as a tea, consistent with the historical period.

If I'm reading this right, they checked for a number of markers and one of those is found only in coca leaves.

[0] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S030544032...

mastazi2• 2 years ago

Thank you! I should have thought of checking the paper first

benbreen• 2 years ago

Author here, I had the same question and looked into it. The author of that comment seems to be onto something because hygrine is indeed found in nightshades as well as in coca. Interesting.

photochemsyn• 2 years ago

The research group behind the paper looks reliable, they have a publication record in the area and while it's surprising they can detect metabolites (and surprising that brains were preserved from the 1600s) they seem to have done a lot of detailed work, here's some of their other related work (they also found cannabis residues in some of their material):

"Forensic toxicological analyses reveal the use of cannabis in Milano (Italy) in the 1600's (2023)"

https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Forensic-toxicological...

IAmGraydon3• 2 years ago

As you can see, the Times was not the only news outlet to be confused about the distinction between cocaine and coca

Unfortunately, the author of this article is the one who is confused. Cocaine is the name of the alkaloid present in the coca leaf, much like the coffee bean contains caffeine. If they were using coca leaf, they were using cocaine.

Clamchop2• 2 years ago

TFA literally already says what you said. They're making a reasonable distinction between chewing coca leaves for mild stimulant effect and huffing a fat rail of the pure stuff.

It gives the wrong idea to say these 17th century people were doing cocaïne.

Mtinie4• 2 years ago

They were using cocaine. It was a less concentrated form, sure, but it’s still using the same substance for a psychoactive effect.

IAmGraydon3• 2 years ago

You must misunderstand what I said if you think the article says the same thing. As someone already mentioned to you, the article says “cocaine was being used in the 17th century by literally no one” when using cocaine is literally exactly what they were doing. It’s just the same as someone saying “no one was using caffeine in the 17th century…they were just drinking coffee.” You honestly don’t understand why that is blatantly wrong?

brcmthrowaway3• 2 years ago

"TFA" has got to be the most inscrutable acronym that is common internet parlance, I simply can't guess it could be, and I refuse to look it up

cynicalpeace18• 2 years ago

So when you drink Coca-Cola, you're drinking cocaine?

mrguyorama2• 2 years ago

At one point in history, yes, this was literally true, in the exact same way that if you are drinking black tea, you are drinking caffeine.

int_19h2• 2 years ago

Trace amounts of it, but yes.

IAmGraydon3• 2 years ago

No. There is no cocaine in coca-cola since 1929. Before that, yes you would be drinking cocaine.

JasserInicide• 2 years ago

Anyone here ever actually try coca leaves? Going to guess its effects are somewhere between coffee and cocaine

jbverschoor• 2 years ago

Only coca tea. It's a small boost, perhaps like coffee if you don't drink coffee everyday

sddsdd2• 2 years ago

Had a lot of them chewed or in tea in Bolivia and it's pretty close to a caffeine buzz, it's very, very mild.

UniverseHacker3• 2 years ago

Caffeine affects people differently… it has very intense effects on me- I would never call it “very very mild”

analog31• 2 years ago

I think it's pretty common for visitors to Macha Picchu to receive a cup of coca tea upon arrival, for altitude sickness. The people I talked to said it was like a cup of coffee.

jvanderbot3• 2 years ago

I can attest to the magical effects against altitude sickness.

pvarangot3• 2 years ago

I used to drink coca tea a lot when I lived in Argentina where you get it in the supermarket. It's around on par of nicotine as an appetite suppressant for me, as a stimulant I feel caffeine and mate are better for the "stay awake" but coca tea is better for "zoning in", with less of anxiety driving but it's a more single tasked high where interruptions are harder to deal with than with caffeine. Like if I have a lot of meetings I prefer coffee and if I have to code for four hours I prefer coca tea. I used to rotate coffee, mate, and coca tea as a daily driver and having something else on the rotation may have been helping more than that something else being coca tea.

akira2501• 2 years ago

single tasked high where interruptions are harder to deal with than with caffeine

That comports well with my contemporary and anecdotal understanding of cocaine's most popular effects.

fluoridation6• 2 years ago

I used to drink coca tea a lot when I lived in Argentina where you get it in the supermarket.

Really? I've never seen it. Were you in a northern province? Reading the comments I became curious and figured I could probably find it somewhere, but I wouldn't expect to find it in a supermarket.

jvanderbot3• 2 years ago

I used them while hiking in Peru.

It's better than caffeine, because it comes with a mild euphoria. Nothing crazy, just enough to have energy and not feel like hiking at altitude is work.

When I hike with coffee I just feel determined to finish. With Coca it just felt natural to keep walking.

lhh3• 2 years ago

I likewise had it in tea several times hiking in Peru. I personally didn’t notice any effect whatsoever, might as well have been mint tea.

yard2010• 2 years ago

Hiking in altitude is hands down the hardest thing I did in my life. On the first day I almost died of an altitude sickness. On the following days, climbing 5 meters up the mountain felt like climbing the whole mountain twice. After every 10 steps I had to stop for 30-60 seconds and catch my breath.

I drank a lot of coca tea and couldn't feel anything different.

Peru, especially cordillera negra/blanca is the most special place on earth I've ever been too. Everything is magical in a weird way. It's literally breathtaking. I can't really describe it. It feels mystical, even with no drugs involved.

GordonS• 2 years ago

I also had it in hiking Peru. I found it to be a mild stimulant, similar to caffeine but wihlthout any jitters. Didn't notice any euphoria at all, TBH.

My wife and I drank coca tea during the whole stay in Peru, and the altitude didn't bother us at all, which I presume was because of the coca.

nicoburns3• 2 years ago

I'm sure it's dose / brew strength dependent, but the coca tea I had definitely had a noticable effect, but felt milder than a regular (caffiene) black tea to me. Much milder than a coffee. Mind you I'm quite caffeine sensitive, so if you YMMV.

_DeadFred_• 2 years ago

Had a hippy friend that discovered coca leaves while hiking in Peru. She packed a bunch to bring back with her to show us her great new discovery for natural energy.

Apparently they already knew about these new things called 'coca leaves' at the border because they took them away from her.

This is a true story. Friggin hippies man.

jowdones2• 2 years ago

She had it easy. A local guy got 3 years in prison with no parole for bringing like 70 coca leaves. The level of retardness of some countries is unbelievable.

https://cluj24.ro/pictor-clujean-condamnat-la-inchisoare-pen...

zoklet-enjoyer• 2 years ago

I ordered some from a Bolivian website when I was a teen. I chewed them a couple times at work while doing landscaping. The closest thing I could compare it to is a nicotine buzz.

lukeinator42• 2 years ago

I brewed tea out of the leaves and also chewed them when hiking in Peru. Stimulant level-wise it felt similar to green tea. Maybe also a slight euphoria when chewing them but it's definitely still way less potent than a coffee (atleast for me).

The only interesting side effect was that both my wife and I experienced tingling feet when combining coca leaves with acetazolamide, the altitude sickness meds we were taking (tingling feet is apparently a side effect of those meds). I wonder if on some level it does have a similar mechanism for altitude sickness?

double0jimb0• 2 years ago

Tingling feet/toes and hands/fingers are an extremely common side-effect of acetazolamide (diamox).

andy_ppp• 2 years ago

It’s extremely mild, not even as strong as coffee. It takes 1/2 a kilo of coca leaves to make 1g of cocaine!

I often wonder why nobody has CRISPR-ed the genes from the Coca plant that make the alkaloids into yeast by now… given the $100bn market you’d expect someone to give this or another process a go.

lazide5• 2 years ago

Probably because the DEA would find a reason to shoot their dog almost immediately haha

bregma• 2 years ago

Coca tea is ubiquitous in Peru. Morning, noon, and night. It's on a par with mate or green tea in other parts of the world. Mostly harmless.

The leaves are readily available everywhere, like right beside the chewing gum at the checkout in supermarkets and the like. I tried chewing some to help offset altitude problems; it didn't help with the altitude problems but it made half my face go numb and other than that, nothing. I understand the local combine it with limestone or something to release different alkaloids but I did not.

thelittleone2• 2 years ago

A lot of stores in Peruvian Andes sell concentrated coca leaf extract as candies. They help on higher altitude hikes. Theres one in particular that is as strong as a chemical extract.

Actually quite effective as an alternative to ADHD medicine.

jajko3• 2 years ago

I bought a bag of those very cheaply in Bolivia cca 8 years ago, locals used some sort of chalky 'activator' with it, so did I. And most if not all locals used it, ie in Potosi mines it was basically mandatory. Heck you could buy a stick of dynamite like from old westerns in random stalls across the city.

I got some anesthetic effects in my mouth in the place I kept chewing them. Wasn't checking whether it made me more alert, even coffee normally doesn't have much effect on me and I drink it for the taste.

Other than that, 0 effect. But I've never used any variant of cocaine so can't even compare.

cma2• 2 years ago

The chalky stuff was probably bannana peel ashes, they have something in them that acts as a MAOI inhibitor.

sevensor• 2 years ago

Not the subject of the article, but in the vein (so to speak) of 19th century industrial refinement processes, gin and other cheap spirits were also a really big deal, and a really big problem at the time. The temperance movement didn’t come out of nowhere. I think it’s an interesting parallel between fermented beverages and coca tea on the one hand, and cocaine and hard liquor on the other.

golergka2• 2 years ago

People somehow forgot the ether epidemic in some parts of Europe at the turn of the 20th century.

Beijinger• 2 years ago

"Analyzing mummified brain tissue from two men who died at the hospital in the seventeenth century, they found evidence of coca use—the earliest ever detected outside of South America. "

There is at least one person who disagrees: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henut_Taui

dr_dshiv• 2 years ago

Cocaine in Egyptian mummies??

doubled112• 2 years ago

I’m not usually one to split hairs, but that Wikipedia page says “on” and not “in”.

Had they found the cocaine in the mummies, I suspect there would be less reason to suspect contamination after they were dug up.

tessierashpool9• 2 years ago

egyptian mummies in the 17th century? o.0

md224• 2 years ago

I wish the US would legalize coca leaves. Our nation's drug laws are so goddamn stupid.

Two different Popes drank Vin Mariani!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vin_Mariani

kyleee• 2 years ago

I am disappointed this product is not still available

yourusername• 2 years ago

Isn't cocaethylene profoundly unhealthy? Even if both components were legal i don't think any country would allow them to be sold combined in one beverage.

herbst• 2 years ago

There is also this one from Italy:

https://it.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coca_Buton

(Which is a actually buyable product that appearantly is one of the biggest, if not the biggest, coke leaf import company in europe. It's a lovely liqueur)

sva_• 2 years ago

You can buy coca tea in headshops in Netherlands as well.

voidmain0001• 2 years ago

I inherited a small hardcover handbook on the use of cocaine in medicine and the household. I don’t have it in front of me at the moment so I don’t remember the print date. I’m guessing late 1800 or early 1900. Ah. DDG to rescue, here is a version of it. https://www.thebookmerchantjenkins.com/product/coca-and-coca... Certainly a different perspective on it from today.

lqet• 2 years ago

Reading the complete Sherlock Holmes stories a few months ago, I also noticed how casually the frequent use of cocaine by Holmes is mentioned as a small vice, a recreational drug that is also "chemically clean", so nothing to worry about. Opium, on the other hand, is associated with disease, crime, and the criminal underworld.

lazide5• 2 years ago

Is it not still the same?

We won’t talk about crack, of course

standardUser4• 2 years ago

I use cocaine semi-frequently but avoid all opioids. The people I've known with cocaine problems always have tangential problems with alcohol abuse, excessive/irresponsible partying and generally unstable lifestyles. I've rarely seem people with acute addictions. The (many more) people I've know with opioid addictions are often 'regular' people with moderate-to-severe pain or mental health issues that become severely addicted, usually starting with prescriptions. We shouldn't pretend that the use patterns or use cases of the two drugs are the same, even if the dug war tried really, really hard to make us think that way.

PawgerZ• 2 years ago

https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/coca-and-cocaine-their-history...

Here are other printings as well, in case anyone else wants to pick up a copy.

cannonpr2• 2 years ago

The ban on cocaine is kind of annoying even in its pure form, it’s a very useful local anaesthetic with good tolerance, low side effects that few people are allergic to. I have often wished it was included in some of the more advanced first aid kits, or used more widely for minor operations.

malfist3• 2 years ago

We have good local anesthetics that don't carry the same addiction risk. There's no reason to provide such a potent addictive drug at OTC.

whatshisface• 2 years ago

As it turns out, lidocaine causes a lot of nerve damage. It even has long-lasting cognitive effects, in some patients.

cannonpr2• 2 years ago

I think you will find that cocaine actually compares very favourably and exceeds most current ones, except for the addiction potential, and the damage it did to the US foreign currency balance way back when they made it illegal.

Leonelf• 2 years ago

"In the United States, cocaine is regulated as a Schedule II drug under the Controlled Substances Act, meaning that it has a high potential for abuse but has an accepted medical use. While rarely used medically today, its accepted uses are as a topical local anesthetic for the upper respiratory tract as well as to reduce bleeding in the mouth, throat and nasal cavities.", from Wikipedias cocaine page. I remember septoplasty surgery using topical cocaine for example.

throw49sjwo12• 2 years ago

Where do I buy it for my med kit?

rurban2• 2 years ago

Just take sugar instead. Cheaper, stronger and legal.

wholinator2• 2 years ago

Are you claiming sugar is a better local anesthetic than cocaine?

standardUser4• 2 years ago

Cocaine is sometimes used in the US to stop nose bleeds and for blood vessel constriction generally, in addition to occasional use as a local anesthetic.

golergka2• 2 years ago

Coca tea is very underrated. Too bad its probably impossible to legally buy outside of south America

cynicalpeace18• 2 years ago

Coca-Cola still uses coca leaves in the production of its drink.

The Stepan Company plant in New Jersey is the only place in the USA authorized to import coca.

"Equality before the law" is unfortunately a farce in this country, if you didn't already know.

tombert2• 2 years ago

Coca-Cola still uses coca leaves in the production of its drink.

Is this actually true? A quick search gives me a lot of sources like "Natural News" and similarly dubious sources. What do they actually use the Coca leaves for?

cynicalpeace18• 2 years ago

It is 100% true. It seems a DEA source would convince you: https://museum.dea.gov/exhibits/online-exhibits/cannabis-coc....

"In the late 1800s cocaine was used as a primary ingredient for flavor in Coca-Cola. In the early 1900s cocaine in its crude form was removed. Today the extract of the coca leaves, a de-cocainized version, is manufactured in the United States and used in the flavoring for Coca-Cola."

greenavocado• 2 years ago

https://public-inspection.federalregister.gov/2024-06177.pdf

DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

Drug Enforcement Administration

[Docket No. DEA-1335]

Importer of Controlled Substances Application: Stepan Company

Mistletoe• 2 years ago

It’s literally in the name, I’d be disappointed if it didn’t have coca in it. It definitely doesn’t have cocaine in it anymore though. I bet that sold like hotcakes when it did though.

fluoridation6• 2 years ago

"Equality before the law" is unfortunately a farce in this country, if you didn't already know.

To be fair, it's not like they're letting them do whatever they want with the plants. They use them for a very specific purpose, and I'm sure there's very strict accounting involved, as is done with factories that produce solvents and their customers.

The question is whether a new business could be started that had a legitimate use for coca and could get a similar exception extended to it.

cynicalpeace18• 2 years ago

The answer is obviously not, since there's only 1 and there's been presumably hundreds of applicants (at least) who have tried the same and been rejected.

It's actually a fascinating example of where government backs a private monopoly as opposed to breaking it up, which is often a case for having a strong government apparatus.

Suppafly2• 2 years ago

"Equality before the law" is unfortunately a farce in this country, if you didn't already know.

This specific case seems like it's more about the law grandfathering in an existing product vs whatever conspiracy theory you have in mind.

cynicalpeace18• 2 years ago

Why it happened is chronicled by Ricardo Cortés in a lengthy series. https://rmcortes.medium.com/the-cocainemaker-reefer-madness-...

Why wasn't it grandfathered for traditional users of the leaves?

It's amazing the moment you point out that massive institutions care more about each other than the little guy, you get called a conspiracy theorist.

int_19h2• 2 years ago

Amusingly, Red Bull famously got in trouble over trace amounts of cocaine were found in their Simply Cola during govt certification process.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Bull_Simply_Cola#Cocaine_c...

doingtheiroming• 2 years ago

Stephen Maturin switches from opium to coca leaves about halfway through the Master and Commander series (around 1800). Ensuring a steady supply of the leaves becomes a recurring theme as is his sharing of their wonders with the various scientific personalities he comes across.

lisper4• 2 years ago

The difference between coca and cocaine is rather like the difference between sugar cane and refined sugar. In fact, that is quite a good analogy in more ways than one.

gwbas1c2• 2 years ago

More like the difference between a beer and grain alcohol.

mossTechnician3• 2 years ago

As David Courtwright writes in his book Forces of Habit, “factories did for drugs what canning did to vegetables. They democratized them. It became easier, cheaper, and faster for the masses to saturate their brains with chemicals.”

This is a really interesting use of the word "democratize." I've seen it used in many other contexts (usually in a business sense), and some have been more ominous than others.

dfxm122• 2 years ago

According to oxford languages, the #2 definition of democratize is "make (something) accessible to everyone" [0]. Can you elaborate on why using the dictionary definition of a word is really interesting?

0 - just google define: democratize

mossTechnician3• 2 years ago

I've seen the word used in different contexts, usually as a marketing buzzword, a shortcut to elicit a positive feeling. (This article does not take that route, which is why I found it interesting.)

If you look at the Google search recommendations after typing in the word "democratize," for example, you get people trying to understand what it means to "democratize finance" (initially, the solution was almost exclusively paired with words like "unbanked", "cryptocurrency," and a rush to bring these products to Africa - rarely a particular place for a particular reason, just Africa in general).

Other phrases like "democratize data" are used in a corporate sense. Apparently "democratize AI" is a huge one too, which is appropriate because Sam Altman of OpenAI fame is one of the people who wanted to "democratize finance" by expanding his Worldcoin project into Kenya. More recently, I've seen the phrase "democratize art" thrown around by people who support generative AI as a form of art.

yandrypozo• 2 years ago

“I was making frequent use of cocaine at that time ... I had been the first to recommend the use of cocaine, in 1885, and this recommendation had brought serious reproaches down on me.”

“... a big wild man who has cocaine in his body.”

― Sigmund Freud

BobaFloutist3• 2 years ago

Oh, come on, you can't add that last quote without the rest of the context!

"Woe to you, my Princess, when I come. I will kiss you quite red and feed you till you are plump. And if you are forward, you shall see who is the stronger, a gentle little girl who doesn't eat enough, or a big wild man who has cocaine in his body" - a letter to his fiance.

gwbas1c2• 2 years ago

Was recreational or medicinal coca use something that was happening all over Europe in the 1600s?

I'd think we'd already know, because there would be historical (literature and records) references.

randomNumber7• 2 years ago

The article is just hilariously bad. Whatever he writes about coca and cocaine is just wrong.

The leaves contain the base. The base has a low melting point and can be smoked (crack).

Cocaine hydrochloride is created chemically from the base. It is water soluble and can snorted. Because of the PH of the blood it decomposes into the base.

Chemically there is no difference once the drug is in the blood stream

On 17th century "cocaine"

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