Microsoft begins cracking down on people dodging Windows 11 system requirements

https://www.xda-developers.com/microsoft-cracking-down-dodging-windows-11-system-requirements/

by taubek • 2 years ago

42 94 2 years ago

xda-developers.com

t1c5• 2 years ago

And why aren't more people switching to an OS that respects them (like Linux)?

shaism• 2 years ago

Because for most users the costs of getting used to a new OS outweigh the benefit of switching.

throwuxiytayq2• 2 years ago

No, it’s because people approximate the costs badly. Pretty much everyone I know is biased towards inaction even if the action provides immediate as well as long term benefit. Especially when it comes to technology. Even the technology oriented people.

ohashi• 2 years ago

Because a lot of the software that people are used to or want to run don't work on it. Gaming being a huge one.

anthk• 2 years ago

Lutris. Fedora Bazzite + Flatpak = problem solved. Libreoffice? Flatpak. Updates? Seamlessly. Anything fails? Rollback.

cma3• 2 years ago

Many games written for Windows run faster on linux now, but the biggest limitation is anti cheat for some of the larger titles. Fortnite, despite all its open platform push, probably holds linux back the most.

baq2• 2 years ago

Steam deck made gaming work really well, sometimes better than windows with the same hardware. It isn’t 100% compatible of course, but it does work for most things.

jabwd3• 2 years ago

I recently tried. After hours of trying my xbox controller still can't connect. Steam doesn't detect my Gullikit controller and frankly, I have to literally decide to go down this pain again to hopefully maybe switch one day.

mepian2• 2 years ago

Strange, my PlayStation 5 controller just works on openSUSE Tumbleweed.

t1c5• 2 years ago

That's really weird, I also have a Gullikit controller (the one with the hall effect sticks) and it works perfect OOTB on my desktop & laptop, both running Linux. Maybe try switching the mode on the controller to Windows/Android instead of Nintendo Switch?

glimshe• 2 years ago

Linux is still a hard sell if you don't have easy access to people who know it well. Even things like adding an app to the app bar can require editing a text config.

Don't get me wrong, I love Linux and my kid uses it, but it's STILL more painful than Windows for a lot of things.

ndriscoll• 2 years ago

Right click -> Pin to Task Manager?

If you're using something like i3, sure, but you know what you're getting into. If you're using something like KDE, it just works.

wlesieutre• 2 years ago

Decision making like Gnome’s “you can’t put things on the desktop, why would you want that anyway, you’re using the desktop wrong” don’t do it any favors with getting people to switch from Windows or Mac.

FireBeyond• 2 years ago

I know you said Linux, and maybe have the same opinion of Apple, but if the OS does actually require TPM 2.0 (and much of MSFT's stuff tries to degrade decently, for all their faults, so this might not be immediately obvious), it's not much different than the hardware requirements Apple imposes (which to be fair, some people also see as arbitrary, and in some cases, I would agree).

minkles• 2 years ago

Because half the shit I use only works on windows. And no I can’t change it because I have to work with other people who’s shit only works on windows.

analog312• 2 years ago

For me, it's touch screen support. I try it out periodically to see if it's improved.

Battery life is the second issue.

t1c5• 2 years ago

Touch screen support depends on your desktop environment, I'd recommend giving a modern GNOME + Wayland setup a try. As for battery life...yeah, that's hit or miss. There's some management tools that can help sometimes.

zbrozek• 2 years ago

My personal experience is that while Windows is very hostile (and getting worse) to its users, it's rarely broken or buggy. The system lets me get work done and not fidget with the system itself.

Linux-on-the-desktop has made great strides. But I still get screen tearing when scrolling in my browser. I still tend to find that I need 0.5 to 1 generation old hardware for the drivers to work. I don't get good battery life on laptops unless I spend way too much time fiddling with things.

And of course, a lot of professional tools don't work on Linux at all. I'm an electrical engineer and while I'm not a designer for my day job any more, I do still use professional-level tools for personal projects. They run in Windows, and Windows only. So basically no matter how much strength of will I have, those tools ultimately keep me on Windows as my daily driver.

I love a lot of Linux command-line tools and always have WSL w/Debian on my Windows machines. No more dual-booting.

SECProto• 2 years ago

Yep, all this. I've tried linux half a dozen times over the last couple decades, several times it even seems to work out of the box - then a day or week later, I realize my printer doesn't work, or I unplug the ethernet and realize the wifi doesnt work, or something that had worked great suddenly stops because of some update. All problems relying on searching through decade-out of date forum posts, hoping someone else's commandline solution fixes my issue. It's too much work, so I use windows 10.

9dev4• 2 years ago

Because for the vast majority of normal people a computer is equivalent to Windows. Many of them don’t even memorise concepts, but areas on the screen where to click, in the order required to achieve a specific outcome. Those are stumped when Microsoft modifies the layout of the task bar or a context menu.

And now someone tells them to install Linux, on a separate partition perhaps, with a shared boot manager, migrate their data from NTFS to ext4 into the correct folders, install their apps or equivalents in the package manager, and get used to a myriad of different interface design approaches? This is just not going to happen, unless the onboarding experience is improved by a few orders of magnitude, and desktop applications use a single, consistent, UI framework.

baal80spam3• 2 years ago

I'd say that for most users the main blocker is the inane (from Windows point of view) Linux partition setup and management.

lylejantzi3rd• 2 years ago

I just spent a week trying to share a new hard drive via samba and failed completely. "Respects them" my ass.

attendant34462• 2 years ago

I can only think of one reason: gaming. Gaming on Linux is much better now, but still nowhere near as good as gaming on Windows.

t1c5• 2 years ago

Yeah, definitely for multiplayer. Love what Valve is doing though, hopefully more companies will follow suit.

GaryNumanVevo• 2 years ago

Linux respects everything except for the user's time

t1c5• 2 years ago

Idk, I think most beginner distros are fine. If my dad (who primarily uses Apple products, browses the web, checks email, that's it) can figure out Fedora + GNOME, I think anyone can.

Synaesthesia• 2 years ago

So now what? Have to install Windows 10?

Edit: this is for the installer of the latest (canary) branch. Not sure if it will be an issue for updates on existing installs.

fifticon• 2 years ago

that site xda-developers has one of the worst GDPR interfaces I have ever seen?! You scroll through 1974! (2000..) list items to uncheck them all.. after 25%, I gave up and left

stanac• 2 years ago

You can block third-party cookies in browser and install extension "i still don't care about cookies". (not sure if and how it works on mobile)

talideon• 2 years ago

I recommend the Consent-O-Matic plugin. It automatically rejects consent on almost all sites I interact with on a semi-regular basis.

attendant34462• 2 years ago

uBlock and nothing bothers you (at least not on this site)

analog312• 2 years ago

I've been assuming that Windows 11 incompatibility was a gift from above, since my system has stopped bothering me about updating.

debo_• 2 years ago

I currently use various Ubuntus, Mac OS, Windows 10 and Windows 11 more or less evenly. Windows 11 is by far the most hostile and frustrating of these.

I quite like Windows 10. It's unassuming and everything more or less works. I was somewhat shocked at how much worse Windows 11 is, despite not looking that different at first glance.

nightski• 2 years ago

Windows 10 was fantastic. Unfortunately some nice features (maybe critical depending on your needs) are limited to Windows 11 only. Such as WiFi 6e/7 support and WSL 2 graphics/cuda support.

baal80spam3• 2 years ago

Windows 10 was fantastic.

Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Windows 7 was fantastic. Windows 10 was... OK at best.

I'll never forgive MS for what they did with the UI from Windows 8 onward.

daulis• 2 years ago

WSL2 graphics support was backported and supports Win10. I’m not sure about CUDA though

beardyw• 2 years ago

Perhaps they could stop everyone using Windows 11 and make the world a better place.

almatabata6• 2 years ago

I have trouble understanding the point of this move from Microsoft's perspective. You actively stop people from re-using older hardware to run windows 11. Those users have 3 options. Continue running windows 10, install alternative OS or buy new hardware.

I cannot see how they would want option 1 or 2, then I have to deduct that they want people to buy new hardware to run the latest OS version. Do they want to force the increase in TPM 2.0 share in the PC market quicker? Do they want to increase hardware sales because they get more money from those than from older licenses?

quohort2• 2 years ago

Sure, it's motivated by a bit of license turnover like you suggest. But mostly it's a case of securing their OS against adversaries (including their users). You can lock down the system a lot more with TPM on your side: Now you can keep secrets away from users reliably.

I think we are seriously nearing the point of no return. Once you have manufacturers start implementing TC, that will really hamper reverse engineering efforts. Over time, the side channels will get ironed out.

Enforcing TPM requirements isn't about making users make changes, it's to scare OEMs into including TPMs by default so they don't get complaints from users. Microsoft wants a more controlled hardware environment like Apple does, because it's more profitable for a variety of reasons.

almatabata6• 2 years ago

Enforcing TPM requirements isn't about making users make changes, it's to scare OEMs into including TPMs by default so they don't get complaints from users.

Would any OEM dare to use workarounds to install windows 11 on not officially supported hardware? I feel like most OEMs would simply upgrade the hardware no questions asked. Simply because should any problem occur, Microsoft would just tell them your problem not ours.

Once you have manufacturers start implementing TC, that will really hamper reverse engineering efforts.

Doesn't 90% of the push for this come from Media companies to implement DRM?

simonblack• 2 years ago

Once you have manufacturers start implementing TC, that will really hamper reverse engineering efforts.

Imagine the possibilities of capturing the non-Microsoft market be allowing the TC to be turned off, or by not including it.

When it comes to Microsoft, there is an old business saying: "Never turn away a paying customer", because you will not only lose this sale, you will lose all future sales too.

9dev4• 2 years ago

It also wouldn’t be Microsoft if they wouldn’t ceaselessly harass those users to upgrade to Windows 11, even if they’re using a non-upgradable laptop that will never see a new mainboard. It’s so braindead, I’m convinced at this point that Windows has been degraded to a mere sales funnel that is to be monetized at any cost.

szundi2• 2 years ago

Exactly. They could just add a check before the ad: is there a tpm2 device there? But no, it is 13 story points, we don’t have time vs some other knife into the back Of our unsuspecting cow (user)

szundi2• 2 years ago

Apple has a very good rate of people using the newest OS, they became envious. … wait what

Cthulhu_• 2 years ago

I dunno what the "wait what" is for to be honest, because you have a good point and / or a sore spot for Microsoft; MacOS users (generally speaking) trust Apple, they have a great track record with gradual OS updates and minimal surprise even when they do major overhauls, with minimal or gradual updates to their visual design over the past 24 years (Aqua with OSX, then slowly dropping the skeuomorphic / Frutiger design language for flat design over time.) They're claiming 2020's Big Sur was their biggest visual overhaul, but it was a smooth transition.

Compare Microsoft that tried various different visual overhauls in the same period, first with Windows XP (2001) leaning into the Fruitiger asthetic, then Windows Vista and 7 (Aero design), Metro (windows 8, windows mobile) and now Fluent (windows 10 and beyond). While trying to add more monetization via ads and office365 integration.

I'm not saying Apple is not guilty of the monetization, they've had three different incarnations of their cloud offerings before iCloud settled things (iirc) and they do promote it within MacOS, but it doesn't come across as cynically as MS's offerings do.

katzinsky• 2 years ago

They're jealous of the platform Apple has created where they can sell the users rather than sell software to them. This requires cryptographic hardware like the TPM.

Obviously it's not going to work because the only advantage Windows had was being the last popular platform that didn't work this way^ but the admins in charge of the decisions probably don't understand this.

^There also used to be compatibility with early y2k apps and familiarity of users from school but both of those have been quickly eroding.

EDIT: Out of replies

Trapping 20% of tech illiterate users would be a loss considering they currently have upwards of 80%.

almatabata6• 2 years ago

Obviously it's not going to work because the only advantage Windows had was being the last popular platform that didn't work this way^ but the admins in charge of the decisions probably don't understand this.

If they can trap 20% of tech illiterate customers into their garden would that not already count as a win? Now they can extract more money from them than they could before.

synicalx• 2 years ago

Option 1 is arguably not an option in a lot of people's minds with the EOL date for W10 coming up, and threatening/pushy notifications from MS on all W10 machines telling people to upgrade to W11.

Option 2 is a non-starter for a lot of people - can't afford a Mac, would never be able to work out Linux. ChromeOS is an option but if you're going to buy new hardware, why not just go with option 3 and get a new Windows machine.

Option 3 is MS's favourite; they shift more unit of their own hardware, failing that they shift more licenses from OEMs, they lock more people into W11, then progressively upsell them stuff from within the OS itself, and finally make more money off of advertising from 3rd parties in the OS itself.

I'm also inclined to think that by creating a generational gap with hardware like this, MS is making their own lives easier by only having to test W11 on modern hardware - no legacy users to support. So they make more money, potentially for less effort.

wslh• 2 years ago

I discovered that in a weird limbo: I updated to Windows 11 on an "old" XPS 13, and never used that device again in Windows. Several years later tried to use Windows 11 there for a specific purpose and it says that I don't have the required hardware.

It is interesting that around this time (COVID age) I started using the MB Air M1 and couldn't connect many external monitors while my "old" XPS 13 could be plugged to any Thunderbolt dock and works incredible well, even without configuring anything special in Linux.

I don't think this is a benefit for a Microsoft strategy but that many people there should be layoff. It is completely contrary with their current developer strategy. Also, privacy-wise you cannot now for sure if they are sending your keystrokes via telemetry... as a negligence.

Paianni• 2 years ago

They still provide directions on downgrading the TPM check from 2.0 to 1.2: https://support.microsoft.com/en-gb/windows/ways-to-install-...

mihaic• 2 years ago

At this point, Windows 11 is the Vista of this generation. I wonder how longer I can stay on 10 until they either fix it with Windows 12 or I'll get used to native Ubuntu with KDE.

edflsafoiewq• 2 years ago

I don't think the title is accurate. The article says that the trick of adding "/product server" no longer works in the Canary branch, but its pure speculation that this is a "crack down".

rwaksmunski• 2 years ago

Windows 10 LTSC for my testing machine, MacOS for me and ChromeOS Flex for the friends and family Thinkpads. This pretty much solves our personal computing needs. Throw in a few vintage Brother laser printers where needed.

ChrisArchitect• 2 years ago

[dupe] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41278379

lousken• 2 years ago

the more people trying out alternatives OSes, the better thanks, msft

big-green-man• 2 years ago

How do you "enforce" system requirements? Either the machine will run the software or it won't. Is Microsoft actively blacklisting hardware specifications to force people to buy new hardware even if they don't need it?

Why in the world would anyone continue to rely on this company?

Gud• 2 years ago

I am one of those people. I keep a Windows partition around only for gaming. Looks like I’ll have to replace it with a Linux partition.

Essentially all I need is Steam and discord. Let me know what Linux distributions is most suitable?

FreeBSD is my daily driver but I’m well familiar with the entire OS jungle by now :-)

techjamie• 2 years ago

Most of them, really. Both steam and discord are readily available in package managers.

Microsoft begins cracking down on people dodging Windows 11 system requirements

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