What the hell is a luminiferous theremin?

https://extkits.co.uk/what-the-hell-is-a-luminiferous-theremin/

by edent • 2 years ago

86 54 2 years ago

extkits.co.uk

amelius• 2 years ago

... but why the hell would you listen to one?

This last question is unfortunately never answered.

The theremin is a good example of we made it "because we can" instead of "because we should".

Of course, glad to be proven wrong.

Al-Khwarizmi• 2 years ago

Music is of course subjective, but for me, this would be a constructive proof: https://youtu.be/62lT9XsZVio?si=4ZHl-2dyihhAaLOA

TacticalCoder• 2 years ago

I knew it and it's amazing: I had already seen that song played on the theremin but never realized it was from Ennio Morricone.

0823498723498722• 2 years ago

Gabriel's Oboe has an infinite number of reeds but paradoxically produces a finite variety of sounds?

PAPPPmAc• 2 years ago

It certainly is a bit of a novelty, but there are a few Theremin-featuring pieces that I find pleasing, a classic example is the Theremin and piano arrangement of Saint-Saens' The Swan.

Here is Clara Rockmore performing it (I think this is a video of the recording on The Art of the Theremin) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdFSU8sn3mo . There's a very nice arrangement of La vie en rose from the same sessions.

She developed a lot of the Theremin techniques and - despite some argument about how practical vs. performative they are - is likely the best Theremin player ever. She was previously trained as violinist and an answer to why you would _play_ a theremin: her tendinitis killed her violin career but could keep playing music with the force-less theremin.

There are also a surprising number of well-known pop (etc.) songs that include a theremin somewhere. Not my list, but I see most of the ones I'm aware of here: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/0p2SpBZ3xDEjemAVlwmWeF?si=...

davidw• 2 years ago

Good Vibrations used something else:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro-Theremin

dahart• 2 years ago

There are also a surprising number of well-known pop (etc.) songs that include a theremin somewhere.

There are definitely some strong uses of theremin in there, but after sampling a few I also found some that I don’t think are theremin at all, which makes me wonder if that’s a common theme - whether a good chunk of that list isn’t theremin, but other instruments.

For example, Wonderboy (Tenacious D) seems to be using a synth with portamento (aka glide), which is pretty common and does sound a little like theremin while the pitch is sliding, but ultimately gives a very different effect, mostly because when it reaches the target note, it holds the note strongly. Theremin’s effect tends to be disorienting because you can’t hold an exact note, so it’s either sliding around or people use a lot of vibrato.

Another one I confirmed is not Theremin is Lovely Head by Goldfrapp. Again, this vaguely sounds like it could be a theremin, but there are plenty of signs it’s either heavily processed and edited, or just not a theremin. My first guess was a guitar under heavy filtering or via MIDI, but then I found this: “ What is often mistaken for a theremin synth in the song is, in fact, Alison's vocals manipulated through a Korg MS-20 synthesiser.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lovely_Head

MetallicCloud• 2 years ago

It features in one my favourite songs 'Red right hand' by Nick Cave.

soulofmischief2• 2 years ago

Neutral Milk Hotel uses the theramin to great effect in their music. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FeD16vu_qQ

adelmotsjr2• 2 years ago

'In the Aeroplane over the Sea' uses a singing saw, instead of a Theremin. Julian Koster even plays the saw during a live performance [1]

[1] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PtPoGwIDZDc

WarOnPrivacy• 2 years ago

... but why the hell would you listen to one?

My son took this album to scout camp. https://duckduckgo.com/?hps=1&q=%22Music+Out+of+the+Moon%22&...

Backstory is they weren't allowed to bring electronics to camp so he brought a portable, 1921 hand crank 78 player, some bakelite 78s and extra needles.

worik• 2 years ago

Jiminy Page uses one t I great effect in The Song Remains the Same

rufus_foreman• 2 years ago

> ... but why

Pixies - Velouria

White Stripes - Little People

Led Zeppelin - Whole Lotta Love

Rolling Stones - 2000 Light Years From Home

Mercury Rev - Holes

Beach Boys(1) - Good Vibrations and I Just Wasn't Made For These Times

(1) Sort of. Electro-Theremin but I'll count it.

JKCalhoun• 2 years ago

Garbage - Cup of Coffee

adelmotsjr2• 2 years ago

'Holes' by Mercury Rev actually does use a singing saw [1]

[1] https://thefutureheart.com/2013/09/29/deserters-songs-15/

aidenn0• 2 years ago

I thought The Day The Earth Stood Still used it to good effect[1], even if the Theramin=UFO has since become cliche.

1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utuDgREIS7Q

radley• 2 years ago

A wonderful example: Bedouin live at Petra, Jordan for Cercle

https://youtube.com/watch?v=xQCLf9T_M7Q&t=35

sebastiennight• 2 years ago

I can't believe nobody has mentioned the original soundtrack of Marvel's "Loki"[0], but that's where I learned the actual name of the instrument. (With more details in the director's interviews eg. [1])

[0] https://youtu.be/watch?v=183tEhupiSQ

[1] https://www.indiewire.com/features/general/loki-theremin-nat...

coldtea• 2 years ago

The theremin has been used in classical, pop, rock, and soundtracks to great effect, and can move people to tears with the right composition...

It's like asking "why even have an 808, who likes this thing?"

bee_rider• 2 years ago

How will we know we are in a horror movie, if nobody is playing the theremin?

defrost• 2 years ago

Good question, great question even. So many tropes to subvert.

Rapid intercut tight shots of different pairs of feet gradually increasing in tempo. Girls scream. Cool hip young black guy disappears or dies. Audience shouts They're behind you!

cratermoon2• 2 years ago

The Day the Earth Stood Still

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzRb1OVpat0

hettygreen• 2 years ago

What part # is used for the TOF sensors? The PDF schematic shows nothing...

ta988• 2 years ago

there are many https://www.adafruit.com/product/3317 those work really well

kaimac• 2 years ago

VL53L0X

_Microft6• 2 years ago

If you are lucky, you can get these starting at 1,20€ apiece on AliExpress.

Edit: yes, currently available for 1,29€ in the bundle sale ("Free shipping for three or more items"). Whenever possible, try to get the ones without pre-soldered header pins and solder them yourself. Soldered pins bend very easily during shipping.

wokwokwok2• 2 years ago

Sounds fun, but meaningless.

As with the wide array of VR instruments (that also use highly accurate position tracking as inputs), what it really boils down to is:

If you are procedurally generating audio (ie. using a synth) on device then what you have is categorically inferior to using any number of existing synths and virtual synths along with a midi input device (such as the genki wave).

Don’t embed the audio generator.

Just make it a midi input device.

It’s not a thermin. Same way a microphone that emulates a flute when you blow it is not a flute.

It’s a synth that can only take one kind of input.

Novel input devices are fun, and I like that; people like exploring different ways of expressing themselves in performances… but I’m a bit skeptical about this.

Seems like it’s lost what was special about the theremin.

fouronnes3• 2 years ago

When AGI happens will you be among those saying that it's okay to torture them because it's only simulating pain and not "actually" feeling the pain? If the hand inputs and the sound outputs are the same, is it not really the same?

_Microft6• 2 years ago

I think they were rather saying that separating the functions of the device like input device, sound generation and output can have superior results because it becomes possible to combine different (and maybe better suited) parts. This makes a lot of sense.

On the other hand I do not agree with them that a combined device is as useless or bad as they make it sound.

bawolff• 2 years ago

I mean, that kind of feels like saying a keyboard is useless because its not a piano.

wokwokwok2• 2 years ago

I’m not saying it useless. I’m just saying it’s not a piano.

Do you play music? Don’t you use your keyboard as a midi input?

That’s what most musicians do.

/shrug

I’m not sure what point you’re trying make, but the point you did make is the same point as mine.

Keyboards are excellent midi input devices. That’s why they’re so popular and successful.

Performances are usually done on real pianos, or using keyboards as input devices.

Is that not your experience? I’m very surprised.

phkahler• 2 years ago

I agree. Measurement plus synthesis has its advantages, but there is something very unique about direct physical manipulation of a sound source.

Having said that, my latest rabbit hole is the old Hammond organs. Fascinating electromechanical beasts, unique among synths.

_spduchamp2• 2 years ago

Skip the complexity. You can connect a photovoltaic cell directly to an audio jack and hear vibrations in light.

I've used this technique for building DIY instruments that I occasionally play at electronic music open mic nights.

This was my first light based instrument... https://youtu.be/ZF2Rn5YfBC8

Then I made a "solar pedal" like this... https://www.instagram.com/p/C2ONSOYti1p/ and did a set like this... https://youtu.be/3sHR2oSeqcY

I highly recommend if you are into sound stuff, go crack open an old solar garden light, attach an audio jack and have fun exploring the hidden vibrations in light.

klysm2• 2 years ago

How can this be attributed to light instead of other EM waves floating around

_spduchamp2• 2 years ago

Try it. It is most definitely the fluctuations in the light. Yeah, there is likely some EM interference, but the rapid fluctuations of artificial light are the source.

LEDs, CFLs, even incandecents, all have vibrations that are audible when you pull audio out of the solar cell. Sunlight, not much. No audible vibrations at all.

IR remotes are fun. For the last show I played, I put a couple layers of garbage bag over the solar cells to make an IR pass filter to block the stage lights from interfering.

Really, give it a try.

_Microft6• 2 years ago

Cover it and see if the signal goes away. Then take it to a dark room and shine light on it.

If it goes from sound to silence in the first case and from silence to sound in the latter, you can be reasonably sure that light has an effect.

If you want to rule out other radiation, you can try shielding the contraption.

spiritplumber• 2 years ago

If you have a decent laser cutter and a preamplifier you can send music out that way. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyDwPJ8CUF8

LeoPanthera• 2 years ago

This is specifically mentioned in the article:

"Due to the expense and tuning problems with a “real” theremins a number of “light” theremins have been produced. These all use some form of light sensor to detect the position of the players hands, but all suffer the same problem they are sensitive to changing light conditions and have very restricted range of detection."

Vecr• 2 years ago

The Luminiferous Ether was supposedly the carrier for light waves, the same way air (and other substances) is the carrier for sound waves. It's not really the space. Kind of pedantic though.

vunderba• 2 years ago

Tangentially related, if you're interested in exploring the usage of a theremin more as a means of "playing an instrument", you can use the Moog theremini as a midi controller for VSTs which is pretty fun.

peter_d_sherman2• 2 years ago

"Time Of Flight Sensors

Recently the cost of these Time Of flight Sensors (TOF) have plummeted and have made a new type of Theremin possible. The TOF sensors are small lasers combined with a very fast photodiode, these clever little devices are able to measure the time that the light from the laser takes to your hand, be reflected, and received by the photodiode. Even more impressive they can do this with millimetre precision."

Never knew these existed until reading this(!)... let's learn more about them:

Apparently, a "Time Of Flight Sensor" is also called a "Time Of Flight Camera":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time-of-flight_camera

Now, me I'm wondering if this could be used to make a Gravity Wave detector of some sort... oh sure, it wouldn't have as much precision as an Interferometer specifically created for that purpose... but maybe you could detect something, under some as-of-yet unknown conditions... like maybe if you had a big enough electromagnet or wave emitter or something (or thing that creates or captures or focuses Gravity Waves, no matter how small or faint -- you decide what it is!), maybe you could influence the distance perceived by the device some really small amount (1 millimetre?), which might indicate the presence of an altering/interfering field (Gravity, something else?) of some sort...

And then again, maybe not!

Still, a very interesting device to potentially experiment with, in different contexts...

Great article, too!

_Microft6• 2 years ago

Unfortunately, this is not possible. Gravity-wave detectors are incredibly, incredibly more sensitive than what you might have expected.

The only devices that are currently able to detect gravity waves are huge interferometers [0]. Light gets reflected many times in the arms of these interferometers and after having travelled a distance of approximately 1000km (over 600 miles), the change in length effected by gravity waves is in the order of a fraction of the diameter of a proton (a millionth of a billionth of a meter shouldn't be off by to much).

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LIGO

peter_d_sherman2• 2 years ago

You could be right!

When I think about it, Today's science first has to be able to show methods for slowing down, stopping, reversing (and speeding up, if slowing down can be accomplishd) plain old electromagnetic waves with plain old electromagnetic devices.

Once we can do all of that, then and only then will we be ready for Gravity Waves, and that's if they exist exactly as speculated upon...

Yes, I know there are some experiments with equipment costing billions of dollars that measure things on a scale which is unobtainable to most average science practitioners, and as a result of those incredibly small measurements, Gravity Waves are said to exist...

The problem I have is that if I can't perform an experiment with equipment costing less than say, $1000, then how am I supposed to verify, much less reason correctly, about Gravity Waves?

It's like today's News Media -- where they claim something happened thousands of miles away -- but I wasn't there, I didn't see it, I don't have firsthand witnessing of the event -- how do I know it happened, and if I allow that it happened, then how do I know that it happened exactly as the other people who allegedly did, claim?

A Tesla Coil, on the other hand, can be built for under $10, and allows me to indpendently verify, firsthand, by direct experimentation -- all of Tesla's theories!

So, how do I do the same thing with Gravity Waves, if they indeed exist as described by people with billions of dollars of equipment, and the ability to take measurements several orders of magnitude tinier than I am able to?

How do I know that the Gravity Wave scientists -- are telling the truth?

But more importantly, how do I know that the Gravity Wave scientists -- are reasoning correctly?

Sharlin• 2 years ago

some really small amount (1 millimetre?)

Heh, your "really small" is too large by at least nine orders of magnitude. That’s got to be some sort of a record.

_Microft6• 2 years ago

If this is a comfort, GP, then check out this prediction.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmological_constant_problem

Single digit orders of magnitude off are suddenly not even so bad ;)

cratermoon2• 2 years ago

I've played an actual theramin. They are surprisingly easy to play if you have any ear training. Getting the most ethereal sounds you've heard in old SF movies does require much more talent, but basic scales and following a chord progression only requires a short introduction.

ChrisMarshallNY• 2 years ago

Jarre did a laser harp: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnAfXK-hft8

rbanffy2• 2 years ago

During an Intel-sponsored hackathon, I built a Theremin. Unfortunately, I didn't have an ultrasound distance sensor - all I had in the sensor pack was a single photoresistor and a couple LEDs. It didn't work well.

There's a YouTube interview somewhere.

rbanffy2• 2 years ago

Oh... I forgot I didn't have a speaker either, only a fixed-frequency buzzer. Turns out that driving it below spec with PWM can make it produce gargles and burps in other frequencies.

It was fun, but, definitely, not a musical instrument.

What the hell is a luminiferous theremin?

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