Low salary likely to cause exodus of European tech talent

https://www.tradearabia.com/news/REAL_423987.html

by WWWMMMWWW • 2 years ago

44 88 2 years ago

alephnerd• 2 years ago

Pretty much. Salaries across Europe are extremely low compared to similar roles at a similar caliber abroad.

fwsgonzo• 2 years ago

Hard to disagree, but have you seen abroad? Seems like outside Europe you're at a constant one health crisis away from homelessness. Is that even an exaggeration at this point?

https://i.redd.it/e2u2h3la7e1b1.jpg

decafninja2• 2 years ago

Frankly speaking, European healthcare does not seem that attractive to me versus decent to good employer backed American insurance. I’d rather have a (often significantly) bigger US salary.

If there is a healthcare system that I’m envious of, it’s those of some East Asian countries.

I know of some Asian-Americans in the US that do medical tourism to Asia despite having company insurance. Ends up being not only less expensive, but more importantly - also massively faster and more efficient to get treatment.

Heck, I don’t know many, but I know there are Asian-Europeans that make the same trip too.

constantcrying5• 2 years ago

I think you are completely delusional about the US. They have healthcare as well, you know, they just pay it from their paycheck and it isn't deducted from their salary.

homelessness

In Germany the state guarantees you housing. Yet it has a far bigger homelessness problem than the US.

Zyten• 2 years ago

I agree that salary is not necessarily the highest in the EU. When looking at job offerings outside my current job, it sometimes feels like I would actually get less salary than I currently do. However, my current job has almost no chance of promotion. In addition, no permanent contract which will force me to switch jobs in a couple of years as they cannot provide fixed-term contracts due to law anymore.

mkl95• 2 years ago

EU salaries have been risible for years. My employer will give you a 3% raise every couple of years if you are lucky. When people leave management's answer is we must keep hiring.

HillRat2• 2 years ago

The underlying thesis of the article is that high salaries in the Gulf will outweigh the downsides of working in low-rule-of-law authoritarian states with onerously rigid managerial and social structures, which ... might work out for some folks, but if you haven't worked with Gulf-domiciled companies before I wouldn't recommend signing a long-term contract before testing out those waters.

ls612• 2 years ago

I was under the impression that for ordinary commercial stuff that won’t touch politics that Dubai at least was pretty tame? Or at least fairly low on the corruption index.

NomDePlum• 2 years ago

Depends on your circumstances.

My cousin worked there quite a while back so things may have moved on but 2 experiences he told me where reasons I wouldn't ever work there.

1. His wife was involved in an accident with an immigrant worker. She was fine, they weren't. She tried to insist on the Dubai police calling an ambulance. They flatly refused as they didn't value the immigrant workers life and threatened her with arrest and jail if she didn't leave immediately, on the basis if she hadn't been in the country the accident wouldn't have happened.

2. They and their other friends had pacts that if either couple both died they would immediately take their children out of the country, as otherwise they became wards of the state, which is almost impossible to reverse.

Corruption is rife too but the cultural differences and consequences are if anything more significant.

Gud• 2 years ago

Yes. I was stationed there for work for 2 years by my employer, overall a good experience. Before going my overall view of Dubai was pretty negative, now I would say it’s slightly positive.

They are essentially on the right trajectory.

HillRat2• 2 years ago

For most expats Dubai is fine as long as you understand exactly where the lines are drawn and are willing to live within them (it's orders of magnitude more relaxed than KSA; far more restrictive than, say, Singapore; and a world away from Europe), but even then you can find yourself in trouble; doing business with powerful political clans -- and it's hard to avoid doing that at a certain level -- is a fraught scenario. I had one friend whose company went into bankruptcy because of two clients (a senior UAE shaykh and an Indian billionaire) who refused to pay tens of millions in outstanding uncontested invoices.

About that same time another UAE (Nahyan) shaykh demonstrated his displeasure to a business partner by having him driven into the desert, buried up to the neck, and (nonfatally) run over with a Range Rover while being videotaped. When that business partner (an American) attempted to press charges, the Shaykh was acquitted and the businessman convicted in absentia for blackmail.

I've had more issues and fewer legal recourses with Gulf clients and partners than anywhere else in the world (including the Bilad al-Sham/Levantine region of the Mideast), while doing less work with them than almost anywhere else, so I'll admit to being biased, but it really is a region where the rule of law is, depending on the context, highly personalized or outsourced to religious authorities, and presented without any of the procedural due processes you're used to.

janice1999• 2 years ago

might work out for some folks

If by folks, you mean straight men... because I sure as hell wouldn't consider moving if I was gay or a woman. Just this week Ireland had to pressure UAE to return an Irish woman who authorities imprisoned for "attempting suicide" after she was injured because of domestic violence.

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2024/07/10/dubai-drops-at...

RestlessMind4• 2 years ago

If by folks, you mean straight men

Straight men account for a large portion of workforce. So might not be a bad strategy for UAE / SA to lure those.

TheLoafOfBread2• 2 years ago

Tech is mostly made from men and you don't need to share your sexual preference with anyone, so I don't really see a problem. Make some money and get back.

pokerface_862• 2 years ago

if by straight men you mean the vast majority of the tech / finance workforce ???

blackbear_• 2 years ago

Using salaries in Italy, Spain, and Hungary as means of comparison and pretending they are be representative of the "European market" reeks of dishonesty. Salaries in Germany, France and UK for those same roles are 2x or sometimes 3x higher than those mentioned in the article. This is certainly a factor for migration within Europe

culopatin3• 2 years ago

And yet half of the ones in the US. At least based on when I got some offers last year when I was considering moving to Europe

cherryteastain2• 2 years ago

London is competitive with tier 2 US cities (i.e. not SF/NYC/Seattle). Switzerland is competitive even with Tier 1 US cities. COL and taxes are higher though.

poincaredisk• 2 years ago

What are you saving for? I keep hearing people in the US earn much more, and it's certainly true in absolute terms, but... I live in a poorer (but not poor, just not germany/france) EU country, with a relatively good but not great salary. I earn way more than I need - I can afford the apartment I want (recently moved to a bigger one due to becoming a parent), I know medical bills won't bankrupt me in case of emergency, I can afford things I want (computers, clothes, eating out, sport equipment, car). Despite not really trying I still save a lot of money.

At the same time, I hear about IT people living in an American metropoly, earning much more than I do, and supposedly struggling with bills. I wonder if the cost of living differences are that huge, or maybe I just have low standards, or is it something different altogether.

TacticalCoder• 2 years ago

Salaries in Germany, France and UK for those same roles are 2x or sometimes 3x higher than those mentioned in the article.

Taxation. At 2x or 3x in France you'd already be at 41% income tax bracket. Then 45%.

And of course a country like France doesn't just tax income: it taxes everything, to death.

You can be making 2x that of someone in Spain, if you pay 41% on that additional money, suddenly it doesn't really like 2x anymore.

In the UAE (say, Dubai: a very thought after destination by many) there was no income tax and if there's one now, it's mild (I think 0% on the first $125 K then 9% on money above that).

France is not a net importer of talent. It's exporting a shitload of engineers to SV and the UAE. France is however a net importer of underqualified people, many of whom do not find any work, putting a strain on the economy and giving politicians the idea of taxing people who work in France even more.

In 2023 the state's income was much lower than expected, which prompted Bruno Lemaire, the economy and finance minister, to cheat and fudge the numbers to try to hide the gigantic hole. French senate called him for it.

Yup: the situation in France is that bad they now have to cheat on the numbers they present, like Greece did (and we know how it ended up for Greece).

This is certainly a factor for migration within Europe.

Seen the current political situation in France, I don't know who'd be foolish enough to want to move there at the moment.

rat9988• 2 years ago

France is however a net importer of underqualified people, many of whom do not find any work.

Any numbers on the visa for underqualified people? I'd be surprised if this statmeent is even remotely true for legal immigration.

constantcrying5• 2 years ago

Why would you move to Saudi Arabia if you can move to the US? Certainly if I had any inclination to move my target would be the US, high salaries, low taxes, wide range of companies, can choose climate/geography and even political leaning of area, etc.

I have been to Dubai, it was one of the worst places I have ever been to. Extremely unpleasant climate, revolting atmosphere of completely incoherent architecture, even culturally it seem to have just adopted the worst consumerism of the west and transplanted it into their native culture. I am not sure what money could even compell me to live there.

beaglesss3• 2 years ago

Dubai has far looser work visa and banking laws. And low taxation. Infrastructure may not be as cheap but it is accessible.

If your goal is to get in make money and leave Dubai might be a lot more approachable from both company owner and employee perspective.

constantcrying5• 2 years ago

If your goal is to get in make money and leave Dubai might be a lot more approachable from both company owner and employee perspective.

Sure, but if we are talking about a place to move to and live the US is definitely my preferred choice.

jauntywundrkind• 2 years ago

Bluntly put, but I'm curious other business-friendly areas there are in & around Europe.

fennecbutt• 2 years ago

As a gay dev I would never move to somewhere like Dubai. Fuck that.

wkat42426• 2 years ago

You're right. Why move to a country that thinks you're an abomination? Even though I'm sure you're pretty much immune to persecution as a high-skill expat, even having to hide who you really are too keep the peace just isn't worth it.

I'm not really gay but hetflex/polyamorous and a bit queer and I would not be comfortable being myself there either. Even in the bad areas in Holland I get slurs thrown at me.

mikkyang• 2 years ago

A lot of people can’t move to the US. Plenty of my friends were moved to Canada after they couldn’t get H1B renewals and now even non-India/China waitlists for green card applications are so long that you can’t just switch from a student visa to an application for permanent residence like you used to.

m463• 2 years ago

I thought this idea was folks moved to saudi arabia, lived apart from the general population, and left later with basically all their salaries banked.

Of course that's the life plan for most folks who move for work.

ilrwbwrkhv4• 2 years ago

Tax free income. Live there for 7 years. Retire.

wkat42426• 2 years ago

When you bring that tax free income home it's no longer tax free of course...

wkat42426• 2 years ago

I would not pick the US either. High crime, high healthcare cost, low social security. People carrying guns everywhere. No way. Of course I know there are huge regional differences but I don't know of any city (it would have to be a city for me) that I'd be comfortable with.

In fact I've declined to visit even when I've had the opportunity to do a business trip though there wasn't much pressure on it. I could just go or leave it, no strings attached and I was happy to leave it. I'm very socialist, atheist and progressive, it just isn't my kinda place.

In fact I often get recruiters pushing me relocation offers though I clearly state in my profile that I only want to work in my city or 100% remote. Even if it's an amazing career opportunity I don't care. I get one a week or so that still tries, comes with working in AI for a major enterprise I guess. They're all scrambling for people now.

I wouldn't want to be in that kind of role anyway where the goal is to "Do something with AI QUICK that makes investors happy, we don't care what it is!!!". I don't play that game.

RestlessMind4• 2 years ago

Why would you move to Saudi Arabia if you can move to the US?

Maybe some of those Europeans are from Russia or Belarus, and are not welcomed in the US.

TheLoafOfBread2• 2 years ago

Or just because getting visa to US is kafquese style difficult.

devwastaken• 2 years ago

Exodus to where? U.S. isn't hiring, and even when they are you're living in broken cities in one of the most corrupt capital markets in the world. Whatever job you get a visa for is indentured servitude.

The vast majority of people are not going to uproot, because living in a sane country with sustainable long term employment more than pays for itself.

lukevp• 2 years ago

What’s broken about the cities in the US exactly? I also don’t generally hear the US referred to as corrupt.

guitarbill• 2 years ago

Not everything makes the news. Could be small town "politics", sheriff or judge elections, police unilaterally deciding not to enforce laws, etc. Maybe you also count healthcare racket as corruption.

RestlessMind4• 2 years ago

Only a few US cities, and that too a few bad areas, are broken. Most Americans live in suburbs which are doing fine.

dexwiz• 2 years ago

Question for European workers: Do you feel that social services help close some of that gap in pay? Raising a kid in the USA has become massively expensive. Health care costs, education costs, child care costs means parents can easily spent 50-100k a year on children alone. My partner wants to move to the Netherlands, but it would mean a massive pay cut for me long term. Their argument is that children will be cheaper, but I’m dubious on if the offset will be enough.

j7ake4• 2 years ago

If you want more than 2 kids it’s rarely feasible in USA, but not an issue for Europe.

No kids, USA hands down.

One kid, comparable.

Two kids, Europe looks better but USA is still possible.

Three kids, you need free childcare somewhere to make it work.

Remember that it is 50 to 100k in after expenses, so at highest tax bracket you need to make almost double that to pay for childcare.

Finally, work culture in Europe is way more relaxed and stable, so you won’t have to worry about missing out on your children’s lives because of work.

rPlayer6554• 2 years ago

May I ask what you're basing this on? Obviously cost of living in the US varies a lot per region.

lupire• 2 years ago

Home is somewhere to get childcare.

hamster77• 2 years ago

Yet the US has higher birth rates

linearrust• 2 years ago

If you want more than 2 kids it’s rarely feasible in USA

What? Anyone can do so if they wanted. There are plenty of people with 3+ kids in america.

but not an issue for Europe.

And yet much of europe has a lower fertility rate.

Remember that it is 50 to 100k in after expenses

What are you spending 50 to 100k on?

RestlessMind4• 2 years ago

My personal experience - most of the USA (generally suburbs) is very cheap to have multiple kids. Houses are bigger. Cars are bigger. Schools are free. Food and clothes are cheap. Plenty of parks, libraries and sports facilities nearby.

glimshe• 2 years ago

As a parent in the US, I find these stereotypes kind of hilarious.

I have many European friends here who say they won't go back to Europe (Germany, England, Belgium) because of the costs of owning a house and having a family.

Software Engineer salaries range from middle to upper class in US terms. While it's not necessarily easy to have kids in the low end of the range, I'd say it's not too hard either and I know many people who do it (even in California).

But hey, for those who think and keep repeating in public that the US is a crime-ridden wasteland where you have no healthcare, no work life-balance and can't have kids: just don't come here and the problem is solved. Interestingly, TFA is exactly about the European exodus... to Arab countries, of all places.

pornel• 2 years ago

For an European, it's really hard to compare the value of social services, especially healthcare. The US healthcare costs seem to be highly variable depending on person/provider/medical history, and the whole pricing model is incomprehensible. Even if I could get a real quote, I still couldn't know what quality of care I'm actually going to get. Over here we keep hearing horror stories like "I stubbed my toe, and the invoice for Tylenol has bankrupted my family", and it's hard to know what's the real likelihood of such problems. It's hard to put monetary value of having a peace of mind that I can call an ambulance any time anywhere, and I won't be fighting any stupid invoices. I never have to worry about some "out of network doctor", because there is no such thing.

There are other things that are hard to judge. I have guaranteed paid holidays and sick days. People serving me in restaurants have a living(ish) wage without tips, and also have guaranteed sick days (it's absolutely disgusting to think people could be coming sick to work, especially in the food industry!). There are higher food standards, and there aren't subsidized processed corn derivatives added to everything. I have plenty of consumer protections (over here saying "I know my EU rights" in the Apple Store magically gets you an extra year of warranty).

I can live in many cities that have competent public transport, and basic shops and amenities within walking or biking distance, with roads prioritizing pedestrian safety. I could earn more and buy a luxury car, but I can already take a train, and read or have a nap while it's "fully self-driving" to the destination, bypassing traffic.

hamilyon2• 2 years ago

I have a very unique experience. Without diving into details, French health care system welcomed and supported and provided very long, sophisticated and expensive care. I really mean a lot. All for unremarkable insurance (mutuelle) 100€ per month.

Mandatory social insurance, basically my taxes, paid for bulk of it.

High level of professionalism, high standard of care, very little red tape and no unreasonable waiting.

Out of pocket it is usually close to zero.

ilrwbwrkhv4• 2 years ago

The number one thing about the US is the sheer hope and belief in the future. Europe, maybe apart from France, surprisingly, is depressing and nobody thinks the future is bright.

wkat42426• 2 years ago

I think the future is pretty bright here in Spain. More importantly, I think things are really fine as they are. We just have to keep the climate deteriorating in check because being in a hot country we're really starting to feel that here.

But overall yeah things are fine. Not seeing great pies in the sky for our future but no big sinkholes either.

ilrwbwrkhv4• 2 years ago

Are you sure it's not because of Spain qualifying for the final? /jk

archagon• 2 years ago

I’ve been in the US for decades. My hope for the future of the country has faded to almost nothing in recent years.

antifa• 2 years ago

I remember that vibe before 911, I remember every year there was a notable invention/increment in technology, and about after the 2008 housing crises, the vibe ended or was noticeably being phased out, now every year google/smartphones/gaming/climate/cost of living/politics gets worse (dark patterns, SEO spam, DLCs microtransactions, etc.).

Most people in the US who aren't old enough to own a home have watched home ownership evaporate away from them as costs skyrocket and rent-seeking corporations snipe all affordable stock with can only offers.

The US is a depressing place that kind of sucks if you're not coming here for a high-end tech job or as a rich celebrity.

ilrwbwrkhv4• 2 years ago

Maybe so. But then you see the sheer hopelessness in countries like the UK, Canada and Australia and you realize the US is still where things can happen.

wkat42426• 2 years ago

I don't think so. I live in a low-wage country in Europe (Spain) and I moved here because quality of life is so much better. Holland is overcrowded, overregulated, people are very materialistic and don't enjoy life as much. And on top of it they now have an extreme-right government I want nothing to do with.

Here in Spain healthcare is still worry-free and included in my taxes. People live life at a slower pace and enjoy it more. I don't need a car because public transport is much better than it was even in Amsterdam. 20 bucks a month covers all my travel needs. I make probably half of what I'd make in Holland but these things are so much more important. Besides, cost of living is so much cheaper here too. Just seeing prices in the supermarket in Holland makes me roll my eyes.

Not everyone puts money above everything and especially that's what I see in other EU expats too. We just want enough to live well. It's mainly the US expats here that are always chasing the extra few percent, job-hopping etc. They always have that drive to be #1. Nice for them but it's a bit exhausting too. Way too much so for me. Most of my US friends have moved to the better paying EU countries as a result.

I'm also very progressive/LGBTQ+-friendly and I would never ever even consider visiting Saudi Arabia for work. I would literally refuse. Let alone consider living there. Even if I could make 10x my wage lol. Same with Dubai. No chance. What would I do there all day? Sit in my fancy apartment watching international TV?

Low salary likely to cause exodus of European tech talent

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