Printing Music with CSS Grid

https://cruncher.ch/blog/printing-music-with-css-grid/

by speckx • 2 years ago

996 82 2 years ago

spankalee• 2 years ago

This is very cool! Like the author, I'm pretty impressed that just CSS can get you this far.

I'm very excited to see the <scribe-music> custom element too! I had an intern work on wrapping VexFlow with web components a few years back, but the summer ended before everything was finished, and it hasn't been maintained: https://github.com/PolymerLabs/vexflow-elements/blob/web-com...

A maintained and easy-to-use library could do a lot of good for music notation on the web.

sonovice2• 2 years ago

There is https://www.verovio.org/ which is both easy-to-use and really well maintained.

ivanjermakov• 2 years ago

This feels like a CSS benchmark haha

thrtythreeforty• 2 years ago

I started the article thinking "ohhh the horror, this will not go well." And I ended up being mildly impressed with the typesetting quality, especially for the relative simplicity of the approach. So kudos to the author for demonstrating the flexibility of CSS.

I am concerned that there are lots of edge cases, essentially ligatures for engraving, that might not compose so well. A triad, or the author's called-out relative head spacing of 8th and 16th notes, or letting the program align different parts across different grids - would this also work well? Lilypond has proven to be exceptionally flexible for these kinds of complexities.

stephbd4• 2 years ago

It would be nigh-on impossible to align parts across different grids – but it's perfectly possible to generate one huge grid with multiple staves in it. I'm pretty confident that will work out.

dsmmcken• 2 years ago

align parts across different grids

Maybe a CSS `subgrid` would help? Subgrid is newly available. (I know nothing about music notation, and basing this entirely off that statement).

rcarmo• 2 years ago

Pretty awesome!

ramijames• 2 years ago

I'm super impressed.

MilStdJunkie• 2 years ago

Nice to have an alternative to Lilypond (lilypond.org), but given the extreme complexity of notation, I would bet that any brevity gains are short lived.

For those Asciidoc freaks among you, Lilypond is fairly easy to get running in your Asciidoc toolchain of choice. I use the DocBook PDF pipeline, and the lilypond output is quite nice looking. It's awfully TeX-like.

atonse2• 2 years ago

But does Lilypond generate responsive sheets?

That to me was the coolest part of this (apart from what others have said, the power of modern CSS)

Tokkemon5• 2 years ago

They can be rendered at any size.

bollu• 2 years ago

Yes, lilypond generates SVG that rescales smoothly

stephbd4• 2 years ago

I would also suggest checking out ABCjs for web rendering.

TheRealPomax2• 2 years ago

Not everyone needs to typeset a full symphony with all the crazy notation for every single instrument though, having an easy responsive web presentation for even 50% of the "simple" scoring you do is a fantastic option to have.

Tokkemon5• 2 years ago

But this solution won't even get you that far, let's be honest.

groby_b2• 2 years ago

At least for Guitar, that's far from what you need even for simple scoring. I'd be surprised if you get enough support for fairly straightforward piano scores either.

Don't get me wrong, this is amazing work. It's likely enough for any kind of "chord and basic melody to help you remember enough to get through the gig". But for actual scoring, lilypond & friends are still the tool of choice. (I wish it was easier. I have spent way too much time trying to convince it to do the things I want :)

I'm hoping it'll get there, though.

mrweasel• 2 years ago

If you can make do with a more limited feature set, I'd properly go with a CSS alternative, rather than using Lilypond (depending on your environment and use case). Lilypond is fairly complicated and not without security risk and have been used as an attack vector due to it being able to embed Postscript.

consf• 2 years ago

LilyPond helped me to digitize my old sheet music at the time

groby_b2• 2 years ago

Did you transcribe manually? Or is there some sort of service that gets most of the job done via OCR?

vintagedave• 2 years ago

This is extraordinary. While JavaScript is needed now, I’d encourage the author to see what needs to be added to CSS to allow a CSS-only solution, and promote it in the CSS community. For example, repeating the clef when wrapping is akin to a sticky table header, and would have more applications than only music.

Some CSS notation is wholly new to me:

.stave > [data-pitch^="A"][data-pitch$="5"] { grid-row-start: A5; }

I’ve never seen CSS selectors with square brackets before. Apparently it’s an attribute selector: https://css-tricks.com/attribute-selectors/

wizzwizz4• 2 years ago

I'd suggest a ::line pseudoelement for that. We already have ::first-line, which could perhaps be considered an abbreviated ::line:first-of-type. Though, ::first-line doesn't seem to support enough properties to be useful here, so maybe another approach is needed.

stephbd4• 2 years ago

My only thought on this was to have a strip down the side with a vertically repeating background of an SVG data URL with the clef in it. But I don't like it. It'll be brittle. And it wouldn't support clef / key / time changes very easily.

mananaysiempre• 2 years ago

I don’t know that this could be done cleanly without intertwining stlying and line breaking, which quite honestly sounds like a nightmare. (Line breaking is enough of a horror show as is, what with ligatures and bidi and ...)

mewpmewp2• 2 years ago

These css selectors are actually fairly common I would say. They were used for querySelector a lot before Angular, React, etc. In addition in current times they are frequently used to grab elements by their data-testid either for jest tests or e2e tests.

firexcy• 2 years ago

CSS selectors with square brackets

They are also extremely useful when it comes to adblocking. Without their partial matching capabilities it'd have been almost impossible to target ad-containing elements in most of these days' js and framework-ladden websites.

coldtea• 2 years ago

Looks good, and with surprisingly clean CSS.

Tokkemon5• 2 years ago

It's a nifty solution. But speaking as a music engraver, it could use a lot of improvement, and I don't think there's enough tolerance in CSS to make it work. The beams, slurs, and ties, in particular have real problems visually. This is why other methods of getting notation into the browser don't use such tools. You need pinpoint precision for vector rendering, which is why almost all browser notation is done with SVG or some sort of Canvas drawing.

Other than the clever solution of using CSS, why would you do this? One can already do scalable notation in the browser with other tools (Check out Adrian Holovaty's Soundslice or Sibelius Cloud Publishing).

scop• 2 years ago

What is a music engraver? I could google it, but I would appreciate a music engraver actually telling me vs some random page on the internet.

itishappy• 2 years ago

someone who makes music look pretty

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_engraving

Tokkemon5• 2 years ago

Sure. It's an old-fashioned term for the artisans who engraved music notation onto metal plates. These were then inked for pressing. It's a highly specialized skill and requires a deep knowledge of now notation works and how musicians will respond to it. Today it is all done on computer but the artistry of knowing how the notation should look and the meaning behind it is still there. That's the basics but the work we do is quite varied and complicated.

It happens that I work for Avid as a designer for Sibelius, the leading music notation program in the world. I also run the Music Engraving Tips Facebook group if you're interested in learning more.

n_plus_1_acc• 2 years ago

It the equivalent of typesetting for music. Choosing fonts/styles, nudging spacing, improving redability, experimenting with page layout, etc

mbo• 2 years ago

Other than the clever solution of using CSS, why would you do this?

Seems lightweight enough for maybe a music theory blog post or interactive notebook.

xhevahir2• 2 years ago

One can already do scalable notation in the browser with other tools (Check out Adrian Holovaty's Soundslice or Sibelius Cloud Publishing).

Can either of those be incorporated in one's own software, without paying somebody? (I don't see a license for this project, but I'm guessing it will be a lot more permissive than whatever that Sibelius thing has.)

Also, the examples for this project are simple leadsheets. I think your average jazz musician is probably a lot less fussy about notation than a professional music engraver would be.

nixpulvis2• 2 years ago

Just going to remind people of https://www.musicxml.com and https://opensheetmusicdisplay.org for a more complete solution at a much larger cost.

spopejoy• 2 years ago

Not web, but https://musescore.org is free software that reads and writes musicxml.

nixpulvis2• 2 years ago

I perfer flat.io

sonovice2• 2 years ago

Also have a look at https://www.verovio.org for a pretty complete but still free solution.

rocken7• 2 years ago

imagine a bot drone that flies around a big city like NY, and just tags walls + suitable spots with interesting gen art from various sources .. likely a lawsuit in the making but cool to see.

sfink• 2 years ago

This feels so wrong in one way, and simultaneously so right in another.

xhevahir2• 2 years ago

This looks really nice. I'd like to see if this could replace the janky notation functionality in Impro-Visor ( https://github.com/Impro-Visor/Impro-Visor ).

rdevsrex• 2 years ago

This is pretty cool!

ulrischa• 2 years ago

Increadible what css can do today. It is some kind of general purpose representation language

alnvdl• 2 years ago

CSS grids are quite interesting. I once implemented a furniture designer with it (pure frontend JS, no backend): https://alnvdl.github.io/2023/01/07/designing-furniture-usin...

bredren• 2 years ago

Hey, that's a great lightweight tool. Thanks for sharing that.

russelg• 2 years ago

Awesome post! I can see myself using your planner for sure.

knighthack• 2 years ago

This was an interesting (and unexpectedly) practical use of CSS for non web-dev purposes. Great idea!

adrianh• 2 years ago

Impressive hack — kudos from a fellow sheet music software developer!

I've spent more than 10 years now building Soundslice, which does web-based sheet music rendering. I believe we were the first to do "responsive" web notation (that part of the site launched in 2014).

Here's a tech talk I gave with a lot of details: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH5EtQge_Bg

Here's an example of responsive Soundslice notation: https://www.soundslice.com/slices/zzNlc/ (in the settings, set the stave width to maximum to get "Fit to screen" for the true responsive effect)

We've got a whole suite of tools built around this, including an excellent web-based editor, rich practice functionality and a relatively new scanning feature (extracting the musical data from a photo or PDF).

I agree with other commenters here that this CSS Grid approach could be handy for lightweight projects but it likely isn't up to snuff for the incredibly subtle and complex world of full scores. With that said, I just want to stress again that this is super cool and I'm glad it exists!

heroprotagonist• 2 years ago

Could you perhaps elaborate about what makes it 'not up to snuff', given how much you used it as a chance to promote your own stuff?

asddubs• 2 years ago

Maybe the segment on engraving of Tantacruls Musescore 4 video is a good explanation of some of the things involved:

https://youtu.be/Qct6LKbneKQ?t=2005

the whole video is worth watching as well (and there are several videos on the channel focusing on the UI of notation apps, worth watching for anyone who does UI but isn't interested in music production as well)

2024throwaway3• 2 years ago

Such unnecessary aggression towards someone who built something cool and useful.

FelipeCortez• 2 years ago

Take a look at the visual tests for VexFlow to get an idea of the complexity music engraving can have: https://www.vexflow.com/tests/

colonwqbang• 2 years ago

Perhaps you noticed that the beams aren't really attached to the notes they are supposed to be beaming together.

OP doesn't show any multi-stave (i.e. "full score") example at all -- if the system could do that, it would likely have been part of the demo.

This is extremely cool technology, but it's clear that more polish would be needed before it's ready for general use.

navbaker• 2 years ago

Oh wow, small world! I use soundslice nearly everyday as an end user of a few music education sites!!!

gentlereturn• 2 years ago

sound slice is super cool!

RobKohr• 2 years ago

Thanks for promoting your software here. This is one of the reasons I come to hacker news comments - finding great projects related to the thing you were just looking at.

I am currently learning some music on the violin, and this looks like something that will help me out.

elijahbenizzy• 2 years ago

This is great!

darepublic• 2 years ago

beautiful music notation. The main page of the site also has a tasteful use of position sticky!

emadda• 2 years ago

Cool, I often use grid for precise placement of items even for small widgets like toggle buttons.

If you’d like an intro into grid:

https://cssprinciples.com/3/grid/

microtherion• 2 years ago

The visual quality is really good.

I'm not entirely convinced of making this responsive, in the particular area of Jazz leadsheets. I've found myself preferring line breaks at regular intervals (mostly every 4 bars, with exceptions for pickups and alternate endings), rather than trying to cram as many bars as possible onto each line.

stephbd4• 2 years ago

The beauty of the system is that a flex box rule of flex: 1 1 25%; will give you 4 bars per line (each averaging 25% of the width). The system is flexible.

shermantanktop• 2 years ago

Hear hear. Most pop/jazz/rock music is generally built off powers of 2 at multiple levels.

toastal• 2 years ago

This is a really clever use of grid & a case where the named templates is actually well done instead of overused.

donatj• 2 years ago

I have spent weeks recently working on a little side project converting MIDIs to colored children’s piano sheet music. I am most of the way there but have been dragging my feet on building the web ui specifically because I was unsure how to render the notes in a flexible way that could look good on multiple devices. This looks like it could be a good jumping off point, and I fully intend to give it a try.

My daughter absolutely loves my Little Tikes piano from the 1980s but all the sheet music I find online, even for the newer Little Tikes pianos, have different colors associated with notes. I have built up a small library of simple MIDIs, and my intent is to have some preset toy pianos to choose from or let the end user specify colors-to-notes manually.

hantusk• 2 years ago

For a shortcut, Musescore has a plugin called colornotes that does this, installable from the GUI. You can alter the color scheme by editing the .js plugin code: https://github.com/musescore/MuseScore/blob/master/share/ext...

It can also print note names inside of each head.

todotask• 2 years ago

I utilized JavaScript to render music notation from pppp to ffff iirc that can connect to a MIDI keyboard, allowing users to practice along with the interactive notes. Initially, I experimented with Adobe Flex before transitioning to web-based solutions and yes, it can read and play any MIDI files to my SF2 soundfont.

The only problem is that MuseScore community took years to fix a missing measurement in MusicXML structure, I had to patch the code on my own.

naltroc• 2 years ago

woah, amazing work! The interactive (transposable) at the very end should be top of the fold imo. Super impressive.

ssttoo• 2 years ago

Nice! I run a website with music theory exercises where the notation is pretty simple. I’d love to switch to something like this, because the vexflow (what I use now) API is a little much of a re-learning curve for my twice-a-year-let’s-add-a-new-exercise cadence

Printing Music with CSS Grid

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