AltStore to offer iPhone apps backed by Patreon in the EU

https://9to5mac.com/2024/04/01/altstore-iphone-apps-patreon-eu/

by latexr • 2 years ago

84 64 2 years ago

I think in ~5 years, after all of the fine details shake out and 3rd party app stores are common across the globe, it will be very exciting to be an indie iOS developer. Open source or demo or hobby apps really don't exist on iOS because the barrier to usage is too high (dev must upload to App Store, or user must compile from source / get an .IPA & sign w/ an Apple Developer Certificate, or convoluted sideloading techniques must be used).

Native terminals & package managers & IDEs... the iPad could turn into an amazing development machine, despite Apple's best efforts to the contrary.

drewg123• 2 years ago

Is the virtualization framework available on iOS/iPad? That would make the iPad into a killer dev platform if so.

kmeisthax2• 2 years ago

No, but Apple could enable it in like 10 seconds if they so chose.

cglong3• 2 years ago

It's going to be interesting watching Apple's strategy unfold over the next few years. If third party stores prove wildly popular in the EU, then what? If people worldwide start demanding parity, how will Apple respond? Will they oblige or dig their heels further into the sand?

tiltowait• 2 years ago

Given Apple’s recent history, I’m betting dig in their heels—which I think is a bad strategy, so I hope I’m wrong. They’ve brought this regulation on themselves with their unnecessarily ham-handed actions. People—even big Apple fans—have been calling it for years. It’s been frustrating to see so many unforced errors.

thejohnconway• 2 years ago

I hope they give up on the App Store as a significant income stream. It's a terrible strategy tax, and pretty gross and un-apple-like (the old Apple anyway). Everything is "free" except for predatory in-app purchases, so you can't tell how much anything really costs. It's full of gambling type games that kids play. The apps at the top of searches are often just garbage, and the truly capable apps are very few and far between, or don't exist because of sandboxing.

What I want from apple if they are going to have an App Store is a curated collection of Apps that are good, and aren't scummy, and yes, often expensive. You can chose to use it or not, but if you want the best app, go there.

quitit5• 2 years ago

Just a few thoughts:

1. Are 3rd party stores popular on Android? How about preinstalled vendor-run stores such as the Samsung Galaxy Store?

2. Small developers are the primary beneficiary of unified stores. On the desktop Steam is a good example of that, while large developers can afford the costs of generating direct sales via ATL marketing and support, small developers largely rely on in-store discovery/visibility to reach a larger audience.

3. However a Steam-like store hasn't eventuated on Android likely because Google's store is already good enough. Steam largely benefits from being early and maintains that position despite the numerous copycat stores having compelling offers (e.g. the Epic store is largely a dud despite regularly giving away popular gaming titles.)

4. If the final legislated position for Apple's App Store is simply to be a Steam-esque add-on store, i.e. merely a place of convenience but not at all necessary, Apple will no longer be beholden to accomodating hostile competitors.

5. The EU is still discovering how they can balance strict control versus existing commercial freedoms, and we're about to see this play out with Facebook. Since the EU has suggested that Facebook cannot charge for an Ad-free tier. Which has a few obvious run on implications, i.e. that a company cannot set the price of their own product and ad-supported "free" services (such as Google, etc.) are not in compliance.

6. Don't expect any of the "gatekeepers" to self-regulate their actions, because they can't read the mind of the EU. Instead they'll now sit and wait to be told what to do.

All of these thoughts obviously point in different directions, but there are some themes that apply to all of them.

1. Large software developers are pushing for independent stores because it benefits them, and protects them from disruption from emergent competitors.

2. Small developers will still need to rely on hive/halo visibility (i.e. Steam, Google Play, Apple App Store). Even though this costs them more than direct sales.

3. Either Apple has no control and thus no responsibility, or they have full control and can wield that against hostile competitors. There is no scenario where Apple has no control and full responsibility.

4. People don't like that last point, and that mental disconnect is on display - but that's where all of this takes us. It's a case of careful what you wish for.

dagmx• 2 years ago

All the things you listed aren’t blocked by the App Store.

They’re system level restrictions based on the security model (whether or not one agrees with them)

Today you can already find terminals and IDEs in the App Store beholden to those restrictions.

lukeschlather2• 2 years ago

The DMA also prohibits companies from placing restrictions on third-party apps that don't apply to their own apps. So if any first-party Apple apps can ignore these "security restrictions" then Apple may have some compliance issues that force them to remove the restrictions.

trws3• 2 years ago

This is all technically true, but an IDE that cannot compile and run the code on the local device is missing something. The prohibition on JIT or otherwise compiling on device and running the result is a big blocker for a lot of true native dev experiences. I say this as someone who really mostly likes the App Store, but who would really like to be able to compile some code or run a VM with decent efficiency.

oorza• 2 years ago

I haven't thought much about this, but given the historic failure of alternative app stores to gain traction in Android, what makes you think this will change? Hardly anyone I know outside of tech circles (and some within them) are even aware that alternative web browsers are an option for their phone, let alone alternative app stores.

I think best case is sites like itch.io and Patreon have dedicated app stores that funnel more money to creators and it's easy enough to manage having multiple active app sources on your phone, but they will always have a very small niche market compared to Apple or Google. Even Amazon hasn't been able to eat away at the defaults' market share.

The most viable path I can see to getting alternative app stores as a common scenario and user expectation is basically just... Steam. But mobile gaming is such a flaming shit show, I don't know if that will ever happen. Something like Steam getting traction on smartphones would absolutely help change that problem though.

doctorpangloss• 2 years ago

Open source or demo or hobby apps really don't exist on iOS because the barrier to usage is too high

Every credible developer I’ve talked to is not hung up on item 1,000 of 10,000 they have to do to develop software. Steam also has a lot of requirements.

The issue is the store is shit, discoverability is the worst of any platform. Steam is great for discoverability. Indie developers can thrive if the stores are better designed.

traverseda• 2 years ago

This might actually drag me into the apple ecosystem. It's a nice ecosystem, it's largely POSIX compliant, but to get the most out of it you should be using IOS devices, and that's just too locked down for me.

nikodunk• 2 years ago

This is the first time I've been excited about the future of mobile computing in a while. It's also the first time I've read an article on MacRumors in a while.

I really hope a few of these early experiments work out, and wish them luck!

guywithabike• 2 years ago

I'm just not looking forward to the inevitable subscription billing dark patterns that are almost guaranteed to be rife in alternative app stores. Call to unsubscribe, early cancellation fees, unsubscribe "errors", etc. Say what you want about the App Store, but the fact that you can quickly and easily see all your subscriptions in one place along with how much they cost and the ability to cancel them easily is incredibly nice.

lukeschlather2• 2 years ago

The exciting thing will be a real open source repository. An entire app source with no dark patterns of any kind.

grishka• 2 years ago

But then there's the flip side of how inflexible the app store subscriptions are: https://www.hey.com/apple/iap/

oktoberpaard• 2 years ago

If those stores comply with EU law, that shouldn’t be the case. See for example https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_22_.... I can see how stores will pop up that don’t care about laws and regulations, but I would be hesitant to pay for anything there.

olyjohn• 2 years ago

Good news is that nobody is forcing you to use the alt stores. You can stay in the Apple App Store all you want.

kmeisthax2• 2 years ago

This is absolutely great and Riley Testut deserves a medal. However, I'm fully expecting Apple to pull some bullshit along the way, like either demanding Riley stop supporting AltStore Server[0] or demanding he not distribute unsigned binaries period.

Apple is hellbent on "containing" third-party distribution by any means necessary. They implemented frameworks for region detection specifically so the iPhone can stop complying and shut off your third-party apps if you travel. They tried to kick Tim Sweeney out of the app distribution market before he even began, for the crime of... opening his mouth[1]. Riley hasn't been as insubordinate as Tim, but he has actively been involved in app distribution, and that is even more of a threat to Apple than mean tweets.

[0] A Windows/macOS application that resigns applications for sideloading and makes remote debugger requests to enable JIT on-device. It notably requires your iCloud password to get your signing certs, which almost certainly already violates something in Apple's terms even if it's otherwise entirely legal.

[1] Casual reminder that the entire tech industry is opposed to freedom of speech, except when it's far-right radicals like Elon Musk trying to redefine freedom of speech as freedom of slurs.

extraduder_ire2• 2 years ago

There's an app called reprovision that can do the signing on device. (it also needs to sign itself, so that uses up one of your free slots) IIRC, when I used it any icloud login worked for signing, not just the one tied to the phone.

jillesvangurp• 2 years ago

What Apple wants and what they get are two things. At this point, there's a significant risk that their attempts to contain this will backfire and will result in even more unfavorable rules. The mood here in the EU is not in favor of entertaining their bullshit. There is not a lot of sympathy for Apple here. Rulings against them are fairly uncontroversial.

There's also the notion that the continued negative press around Apple's anti competitive behavior is going to have an effect on their competitive position. Iphone marketshare in the EU is much smaller than that in the US. They don't have as tight a grip on the market. Things like Facetime or Apple messenger aren't widely used because they don't work with other phones and lots of people have those, which makes using these apps impractical.

And this stuff will likely spill over to other regions. Once Apple shows they can grudgingly behave a bit nicer in the EU, other countries are going to insist on the same. China already does that of course. Apple sells iphones there. But with a Chinese appstore, Chinese maps, and under very strict Chinese laws. And of course this stuff might eventually come back to the US where people might rightly wonder why they have to be nannied by Apple.

Alifatisk• 2 years ago

Is this the return of third-party stores we had back in the days? Remember Tutuapp, Altstore and many others for non-jailbroken devices?

thih9• 2 years ago

How does it compare from the point of security?

Does an app installed via a non-Apple app store can access more on my device for some reason? E.g. because it uses undocumented APIs that wouldn’t be allowed on the regular App Store?

RandallBrown• 2 years ago

Yes.

That's why there are several massive warning dialogs when installing apps from alternate stores.

kranke1552• 2 years ago

It would be ironic if the open app store would create an european app develoment renaissance. New apps on iOS, Europe only, built for european standards by european developers.

Gigachad• 2 years ago

Has this happened for android which has always allowed alt app stores? As far as I know, there is only Fdroid and some piracy app stores.

kranke1552• 2 years ago

Ah good point.

alberth• 2 years ago

Web

At times, I feel like I’m only person who makes SaaS app for mobile, but on the Web (no App Store need).

difosfor• 2 years ago

I wonder if/when real versions of Chrome and Firefox will become available through these stores. Or would that still not be allowed without using Safari WebKit as the base?

AltStore to offer iPhone apps backed by Patreon in the EU

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