Indonesia's e-bike shops are building their own batteries

https://restofworld.org/2024/homemade-ebike-battery-indonesia/

by donohoe • 2 years ago

226 190 2 years ago

infecto5• 2 years ago

I don't know Indonesian import law but I would guess that this guy making batteries for his local business might have better quality than what I assume is the alternative, imported Chinese batteries. I wonder why so much concern over safety. I would be much more concerned about Chinese imported batteries since you don't always have a brand name and QC.

WJW• 2 years ago

since you don't always have a brand name and QC

Some guy DIY-ing batteries in his shop is pretty much the epitome of "no brand name and QC" though. Seriously, look at some of the pictures in the article. Those botched together mains wires alone look like a fire risk.

Quite apart from the circumstances of their creation, the homemade battery packs themselves can also be quite unsafe as some/most shops use any secondhand cells they can get their hands without regards for discharge ratings etc. That sort of imbalance can easily lead to fires during use, which is obviously not great when the driver is in busy traffic at the time.

adql• 2 years ago

Those botched together mains wires alone look like a fire risk.

There is nothing inherently unsafe with bolting power strip onto the wall.

Quite apart from the circumstances of their creation, the homemade battery packs themselves can also be quite unsafe as some/most shops use any secondhand cells they can get their hands without regards for discharge ratings etc. That sort of imbalance can easily lead to fires during use, which is obviously not great when the driver is in busy traffic at the time.

Not reading the article before yapping your mouth eh ?

Ady Siswanto, owner of e-bike workshop Dyvolt in Jakarta, told Rest of World he takes care to match the internal resistance and capacity of the cells.

Most of the "serial DIYes" know that just fine, as it is blindingly obvious in performance of batteries and if you're making it a business you'd not have many returning customers... except ones returning for a return.

And let's not pretend name-brand packs don't have "accidents"

infecto5• 2 years ago

He works under his own brand though, I would argue that batteries made by the guy down the street have a higher brand awareness than "COCO" batteries which might also sell under name "BOBO", "AOAO", "AKKO", "LMYW", etc.

I am only pointing out that I would be concerned regardless of the source, chinese or local but suspect the local guy has a greater incentive to maintain his brand than the imported brand from china.

averageRoyalty• 2 years ago

Seriously, look at some of the pictures in the article. Those botched together mains wires alone look like a fire risk.

I'm guessing you haven't been to Indonesia. This style of wiring is common in businesses and homes in Indonesia, Thailand and lot of poorer asian countries. The regulations are weak or unenforced. Often unlicensed people build houses, run power, water etc.

It's (probably unintentionally) dishonest to judge this by a first world standard.

jpgvm4• 2 years ago

better quality than what I assume is the alternative, imported Chinese batteries.

You do realise that China makes some of the worlds best batteries right?

There is a reason why BYD, EVE and CATL are in the news all the time and it's not because they suck.

Quality wise Chinese/Korean/Japanese batteries are all pretty much the same on NCA/NCM chemistries. China has a big advantage in LFP but LFP is shitty for an e-bike because the reduced density penalty is much more meaningful than in a car.

Those companies make cells of course but there is also plenty of high quality BMS available and fully assembled batteries out of China too obviously.

actionfromafar5• 2 years ago

China also makes some of the worlds worst batteries. (Source: all the products I had to return after 1 or fewer successful charges.)

tokai2• 2 years ago

They are having huge issues with e-bike fires in China. Here you have an article with two Chinese researchers weighing in on the issue.[0] According to them low quality batteries are the reason for the number of deadly fires.

So yes, Chinese ebike batteries are on a whole of low quality.

[0] https://www.sixthtone.com/news/1013638

infecto5• 2 years ago

Do you really think these bicycle batteries are being powered by BYD? Like I said I don't know the their market well but if its similar to other markets in the region, they are importing low quality generic branded stuff that may be worse off than those local manufacturer who have a real incentive to try to product higher quality products.

tantalor• 2 years ago

Packs, battery packs.

This is very common for DIY ebikes.

actionfromafar5• 2 years ago

It used to be that one assembled batteries of cells. But language changes I suppose.

zdragnar• 2 years ago

In this case, each cell is also a standalone battery (an 1850 I presume). Assemblage of these is either called a module or a pack.

samatman• 2 years ago

Not even disagreeing with you, but it's a funny evolution of language when you consider the origin of the term battery.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artillery_battery

We owe the term to Benjamin Franklin, who used it to describe what you're referring to as a pack (although Leyden jars are considered capacitors rather than batteries in modern terms).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_battery#Invention

ginko• 2 years ago

There's a small youtube channel[1] I follow where a guy I think is from Indonesia builds his own handheld coil guns and railguns including his own charging circuit designs. Pretty crazy/fun stuff. There seems to be quite a bit of an electronics hacking scene going on there.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/@DNAP460/videos

notjulianjaynes2• 2 years ago

From the pictures I get the sense this guy knows what he's doing. Sure his shop's a little dusty, and that fume extractor is maybe a little ghetto (better than my aquarium filter duct taped to a fan though).

It's hard to tell what those grey cells are being used in the pack, which is probably most important factor, but the construction of it appears solid. It's also evident from photo that he is disassembling a damaged pack. See the missing row of cells at the top, and corrosion on the bottom in this photo: https://149346090.v2.pressablecdn.com/wp-content/uploads/202...

jpgvm4• 2 years ago

They look like standard 1865 cells but obviously not high enough res to spot the manufacturer. I would imagine EVE though. CATL is too hard to get a hold of but EVE Grade A is still pretty easily available from Alibaba.

notjulianjaynes2• 2 years ago

EVE would be my guess too, possibly INR18650-35V, which seems totally cromulent for an ebike.

EVE cells are also used in newer Ryobi power tools, it's worth pointing out: https://www.reddit.com/r/ryobi/comments/oxn53g/psa_ryobi_is_...

xarope2• 2 years ago

I think you mean 18650? Unless 1865 is a new battery standard that has 10x the capacity, in which case EDC light with 1000 hours runtime here we go!

VBprogrammer• 2 years ago

https://jacquesmattheij.com/long-range-ebike/

Not the only ones!

samstave• 2 years ago

I was super envious of this when he first posted it here...

However - I bought a ~7,000 e-bike and I love/hate it:

I have an Orbea Rise H30 - and its ~36 lbs. The problem is that the magnets in the motor are always engaged - meaning that even when the bike is 'off' I am fighting against the magnets - and it governs me and when off, no matter how hard I pedal - I cant get about 11 miles an hour.

It is a type 2 - so it is not supposed to boost you passed 20 miles an hour - but instead it effectively governs you to 20 mph. Its very hard to get it much faster - the fastest I have gotten to is 24.5 mph. Downhill.

However - when the battery is powered - its great, except you have to only keep it on BOOST which is the highest of three settings (eco, trail, boost)

I'd not buy this bike again. It range is really around ~30 miles - and they have a range booster battery pack for $600 - and I should have bought that when I had the money to throw at it... but yeah the bike sucks when the battery dies.

actionfromafar5• 2 years ago

On my bike, I found that disconnecting the battery made the magnets spin freely.

akgerber3• 2 years ago

I have a Shimano middrive bike that weighs 50lbs that I purchased on closeout for $1500. It rides like a nice, albeit heavy, bike with the motor turned off.

ActorNightly• 2 years ago

You can do better then that.

CYC motor kits can take up to 72v, and they don't care about talking to the BMS of the battery, so you can pretty much run any battery.

The final reduction is external, so they sell different chainring sizes. With higher voltage, you get more motor speed, so you can do a bigger reduction for the same power, which means lower motor required torque for the same wheel torque, which gives you efficiency.

I have the 52v setup from them on a full suspension mountain bike, with the 416wh battery, and I have done 30 miles on it with pedal assist and knobby mountain bike tires and basically got the battery down about halfway (im fairly fit and have a higher FTP so I don't require much assist).

If I was to build a setup like in your post, with a big 72v battery taking up the entire front triangle of the bike, and use faster rolling tires, I could either have an ebike that can probably keep up with cars on a highway under throttle, or in the pedal assist mode, do over 100 miles.

smallpipe• 2 years ago

Are those LiPo or LiIon? The articles mention both, and the image looks like LiIon

babl-yc2• 2 years ago

Photos are showing Li-ion 18650 cells afaict

Those are the most common for e-bike batteries

Havoc• 2 years ago

Various YouTubers do similar to build effectively Tesla powerwalls

It seems quite risky even for those that are careful. I recall one of the bigger channels ending up eating humble pie when they had a fire.

Not something I’d ever want to do unless I could house in in an outdoor shed quite far away from everything else

wiradikusuma• 2 years ago

I keep thinking Ripperdocs in Cyberpunk world. Looks dodgy alright, but it's in their best interest to not screw up because I know in Indonesia "homemade" usually literally means made at home, and houses in Indonesia typically share walls between adjoining houses, so if you burn your house your neighbors will not be happy.

zevv• 2 years ago

Question I have: is it just a bunch of cells wired up, or is there a BMS (battery management system) in there doing the things you need to do to make a battery safe and make it last: cell balancing is essential to make sure the pack will survive more then a few charges and rides before it will kill itself. Also I would not like a battery pack that does not switch itself off when voltages or currents get too high, which is a great way to start a thermal runaway. Not a safety issue, but important to make sure the battery is not abused is to prevent deep discharge voltage or charging the battery at too low temperature.

russellbrandom• 2 years ago

Hi -- editor of the piece here. There is a BMS, that's the main other component aside from the cells. We had that detail initially but it got cut for space.

ggm2• 2 years ago

A shame, because seeing how you can get and apply a BMS to a build is probably where much of the readership interest lies.

How 'programmable' is the BMS typically? is it arduino programming hard? Can you e.g. shape the charge profile. set the stop point, route around damaged cells? is the BMS field upgradable?

I'm guessing its a commodotized un-upgradable closed solution and you set the params on purchase (alibaba) and its how it works forever.

holoduke2• 2 years ago

Cheap active bms systems. Could be hazardous as well. But needed for charging from a 48v charger block.

AYBABTME4• 2 years ago

Wow this is scary. LiPo are very dangerous and even NMC which are stabler are very error prone when assembled in an ebike pack: the cells need to be high quality (LG, Panasonic), the assembly need to be very careful (so many ways for the interconnects to become a liability and cause a fire) the BMS needs to be quality (or it'll overheat and cause a fire). It's hard to make it right when careful, and even decently sized companies mess it up.

Slapping together some LiPo? It's just a matter of when, not if.

Recently published very relevant talk by Grin: https://youtu.be/j92Gt4VviSQ?si=0TV_HqZBEBuVDqdx

Otherwise I think these things are super cool, but in the case of lithium ebike batteries, they look so innocent and easy to build, and are so dangerous. I'm speaking from being humbled myself after building two NMC packs with cell-fuses, a spot welder, being careful... I'm dead scared of my packs.

CyberDildonics5• 2 years ago

Wow this is scary.

Not really.

LiPo are very dangerous and even NMC which are stabler

LiPo refers to lithium polymer, which doesn't mean a different chemistry. It means "polymer electrolyte instead of a liquid electrolyte".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_polymer_battery

are very error prone when assembled in an ebike pack

There are billions of 18650 battery packs out there now in general.

the cells need to be high quality (LG, Panasonic)

No, the cells need have their specs correct and the packs need to be built according to cells' specs.

the BMS needs to be quality (or it'll overheat and cause a fire).

The BMS is there to limit things like discharge voltage, charge voltage, discharge amps, etc. It makes things safer.

AYBABTME4• 2 years ago

You may think so, and I encourage you to watch the video I shared. I held many of the same conclusions/approximations until learning of Grin's experience.

geor9e• 2 years ago

They aren't slapping LiPos together. They aren't even using LiPos. LiPo are usually single small cells pouches in phones and gizmos. These are Li-Ion 18650 cells like Samsung 50e's being nickle spot welded into ~60V arrangements, with every 4.2V "p-pack" getting a wire to the Battery Management System circuit board. All charge and discharge does thru the approval of the BMS and gets cut off if any cell shows anything abnormal (short, too much resistance (voltage dipping), undervolted, overvolted). The photos look just as professionally made as another other factory. Unwrap literally any random e-bike's battery and you'll find identical construction. A few rare brands also pot the battery in thermal epoxy to make them even more safe. Yes fire and liability are scary for battery pack builders but this guys shop doesn't appear to be doing anything bad.

treprinum2• 2 years ago

Why not use LiFePO4? Those should be much more stable.

stonogo• 2 years ago

Power density is much lower. On a vehicle you have to pedal one the power is out, weight savings matters.

holoduke2• 2 years ago

I am building similar battery packs for long range uavs. We have many different configurations. Like 12s24p. 48v with total of 252 4.2v cells. We put them in 3d printed holders and spotweld them. Takes about 30 minutes to make one battery. Bms systems are available widely. Its rare to have dangerous issues. Even with chinese clones. Most of the accidents happening when nickel strips are cut and accidentally falling on open battery packs.

AYBABTME4• 2 years ago

I agree that it's fun and can often be safe if built correctly for the right application. But I think UAVs don't experience the same beating and vibrations that ebike batteries do, which I think is what the bigger problem is with ebike batteries in particular. Unless carefully built, things like balance wires can shafe and cause a short, the spot-welded tabs can break off or the connection resistance increase, leading to hot spot. The BMS can have hot spots (FET based ones in particular) that lead to failure or electrical fires over time. Humidity mixed with various electrical potentials on nearby PCB traces causes corrosion and eventually failure of the BMS, etc. And it's not all the BMSes that are built the same, they may all have the same set of features on the happy path, but they're not all created equal when their PCB starts failing and fail-safes are required.

Basically in a "tough" environment like ebikes, I think the aging of the pack is much accelerated, which leads to lower mean-time between incidents. Combine that with the profile of the average buyer (wants the cheapest, longest range battery they can get) and it's an even higher probability.

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love custom DIY packs. It's just way more dangerous than meets the eye, especially in dirty and high vibration environments.

linsomniac4• 2 years ago

Note that while the article says "soldering" the pictures show "welding", which is the typical way you create battery packs. The reasons are that the welding provides a higher temperature connection but for a shorter period of time, over all dumping less heat into the battery and potentially causing damage to the cell or triggering ignition. Also makes a higher temp connection, solder can melt when the joints get hot during use.

I got a battery welder a few years ago to repair an ebike pack and also to repair a EGO power tool battery pack, but thus far haven't used it. The ebike pack was a bunch of "packets" rather than 18650 cells, and the EGO was slightly smaller than 18650, so I need to wait for another pack to fail so I can scavenge cells from one to repair the other.

Be careful if it smells like birthday cake when you're working with lion cells, that can preclude them bursting into flames. Have a metal container nearby to drop them into for transport outdoors.

mhb2• 2 years ago

preclude: I think you mean that can be a prelude to. Though could also be presage.

linsomniac4• 2 years ago

I think I was going for "precedes".

orbital-decay2• 2 years ago

Have a metal container nearby to drop them into for transport outdoors.

Before doing that, try watching some experiments with fireproof containers specifically designed for these fires, to have an idea how quick and violent this can be, and how bad most of these containers are at preventing it from going from 0 to inferno or to a toxic cloud suffocating you in seconds. This might or might not help you plan for the worst case, or better yet forget about doing DIY battery pack repairs at all.

WalterBright2• 2 years ago

forget about doing DIY battery pack repairs at all.

Yah, some things it's best to not learn the hard way.

But if you're intent on doing it, to it outside on a concrete slab.

throwway1203852• 2 years ago

What do people do in factories?

I'm skeptical of the idea that some repairs are meant to be performed only by "experts" and that nobody should ever try to learn how to make them. It fuels an industry of people charging hundreds or thousands of dollars per repair to install cheap parts, and it's part of the reason our society throws so much stuff away.

Sure lithium ion packs are dangerous, but there is a manufacturing process that: welds cells together to make banks, and that sometimes produces a runaway reaction inside the cells. Given that that's the case, it should be entirely possible to do that safely in a controlled environment inside of a garage.

This is the same attitude that informs our decision not to repair garage door springs. Or more relevantly the same attitude that tells us to just use whatever async library du jour exists but never to learn about the internals of that library. "Don't worry about what's under the hood, that's dangerous stuff" says the dealer's mechanic.

morphle6• 2 years ago

I design big custom battery packs in car trailers or shipping containers for storing them outside of infrastructure. If the battery catches fire you can drag the trailer or shipping containers further away to let it burn out. Of course it gets harder to drag them away after a few minutes of fire when the axles and wheels start to melt.

The point is to never put Lithium-ion batteries inside buildings, especially not put them inside heavy (metal) boxes bolted to the building.

DebtDeflation• 2 years ago

Before doing that, try watching some experiments with fireproof containers specifically designed for these fires

I watched a bunch of those videos on YouTube when I was in the market for one and ended up not buying any. The ones that were fully sealed just exploded and the ones that were vented shot 3 foot tall flames and showers of sparks out of the vents igniting everything on the ground around the container. Better to just charge the bike outside on pavement or concrete away from anything flammable.

cesarb• 2 years ago

Note that while the article says "soldering" the pictures show "welding",

In some languages, these are the same word (this is the case at least for my native Portuguese), so this could just be a translation issue.

zer00eyz• 2 years ago

Wait what? Is there a distinction for Brazing? There isn't a distinction for the same metals vs different ones?

duskwuff• 2 years ago

They're also more or less synonymous in Chinese, resulting in a lot of weird phrases like "infrared welding" or "SMT welding practice kit".

wolverine87617• 2 years ago

Interesting: How do you express the difference between soldering and welding?

imsaw• 2 years ago

They're distinct in Indonesian, the former is "solder" while the latter is "las". Most likely a technical assumption made by the author during his visit to the workshop

yardie• 2 years ago

Be careful if it smells like birthday cake when you're working with lion cells

This is hilariously specific. I wasn't sure how to describe that sweet smell of li-ion packs immolating. Birthday cake seems to fit it perfectly.

kazinator• 2 years ago

Ah, Mom's good old lithium birthday cakes ...

opwieurposiu• 2 years ago

The birthday cake smell thing is right on, happened to me. I was transporting a hobby fighting robot and noticed the smell. When I took it out of the metal box I found a wire had broken and the 18650 battery was shorted.

analog31• 2 years ago

In addition to the heat issue, a lot of battery contacts don't form a good joint with typical electrical solder.

Source: Tried to solder batteries.

justinclift• 2 years ago

Interesting. My father (retired engineer into these things) was talking about making a battery pack welder recently.

Something about it using a directed microwave pulse to make the weld spot, so it doesn't dump a bunch of heat into the batteries and potentially cause a fire.

The theory of it sounded ok to my layman ears. Hopefully he gets it up and working in the near future. :)

euniceee3• 2 years ago

I cant wait for outfits like this to pop up in the states. I have a couple of battery packs that are dead and I do not have the time or patience to rebuild. They are gonna go to CL free, but I looked for local services that can rebuild them.

As more battery packs begin to fail this will become the norm.

dghlsakjg3• 2 years ago

They do exist.

Off the top of my head Tenergy is one that operates in the states, but there's tons of them out there.

xarope2• 2 years ago

I can imagine indonesia's low wages supporting manual labor to rebuild these battery packs, but in the US or Europe surely the cost of such labor precludes such labor, or otherwise requires more automated methods?

ajsnigrutin4• 2 years ago

I have no idea what the fascination with this is, and what makes these batteries "homemade".. also, it's spotwelding and not soldering.

Buying battery cells and spot welding them together is a thing that many companies do, even in the "western world", i know of at least three in my small eu country.

Before lithium, they did the same with NiMh and NiCd batteries.

You can also make them yourself at home, although it can get relatively dangerous if you don't know what you're doing... same as with replacing an outlet at home, but more of a fire damage instead of a shock risk, so definitely not for everyone, but with some basic precautions, can be done safely.

The bigger problem in the current times is, that device manufacturers fight hard against any kind of repair or DIY stuff, so sometimes just disconnecting the cells from the BMS (battery management system) makes it "reset" and fail the "authenticatioN" between the device and the BMS (which exists only to prevent repair). Companies know how to avoid that (via using a power supply to keep the board powered up), but attempting to DIY fix it (without knowing about the issue) makes you destroy the BMS.

callalex• 2 years ago

Is this really a common practice outside of FutureMotion/OneWheel?

mperham• 2 years ago

Bosch is known to pair their hardware such that you can’t replace a bad element, e.g. replace a bad Bosch battery with a 3rd party unit. The entire Bosch ebike hardware ecosystem is locked down and only approved dealers can repair.

fragmede5• 2 years ago

It’s pretty common. They’re far from the first ones to have started that practice, which began in the 2000s. The concept of the battery management system (BMS) killing the pack for safety reasons came with modern BMS chips that can do state of health (SoH) measuring, along with state of charge (SoC) measuring.

ajsnigrutin4• 2 years ago

Some laptop manufacturers do that... once you disconnect the voltage from the BMS, the BMS is efectively dead. If you know it, you can use a power supply to keep it energized, if not, tough luck. You can still buy a 3rd party battery to use with that laptop, but the original laptop cannot be "renewed" with new cells anymore.

centizen• 2 years ago

They are even matching the internal resistance of the cells, I can't think of much more a professional manufacturer would be doing. As long as they are getting their cells from reputable sources (big if) I don't see anything wrong with a boutique battery industry for niche applications.

morphle6• 2 years ago

A professional manufacturer would not put any cell in series but instead would have a charger/discharger with voltage per cell, with current and temperature sensors as feedback loops. The danger of cells in series differs with the cell chemistries.

Using a BMS is another indication they are not professional or even had an engineer design them.

Sadly I know of only a very few small professional battery pack manufacturers, certainly none of the EV or bike makers.

wolverine87617• 2 years ago

I can't think of much more a professional manufacturer would be doing

Safety equipment, in a safe environment, not exposing others to fire risk?

babl-yc2• 2 years ago

I would define "homemade" as assembling the batteries without any sort of regulation or safety standards.

I'd be a bit frightened if I knew someone in my apartment building was assembling their own batteries -- poor quality ones can burn down the building.

It's an increasing problem here in San Francisco. I know at least one friend who had to move due to smoke damage caused by a neighbor collecting these batteries. https://sfstandard.com/2024/01/09/san-francisco-e-scooter-bi...

Gigachad2• 2 years ago

Yeah this is incredibly dangerous. It's not at all like installing a power outlet. You can do that relatively easily and safely. These batteries will catch fire in the middle of the night, burning down apartments and they will kill many people.

_carbyau_• 2 years ago

What I find concerning is most people here would have seen expanded seams on a phone or laptop and known about the "puffy" battery within.

The rate of proliferation of gadgets with such batteries is crazy. So much of society already has so many of these little flashpoints in phones, tablets, toothbrushes, kids toys (electric scooter anyone?) - statistically your concerns are already valid without anyone being an electronics hobbyist.

ajsnigrutin4• 2 years ago

So, compare the number of battery fires to eg. gas explosions, cigarette fires, oil fires due to cooking, etc.

Doing anything with mains power, water pipes and gas pipes is still done by many people themselves, and the risk is minimal.

Also most of the battery fires happened with factory installed batteries, be it in vapes, galaxy notes, or other devices.

Also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCaDz_2YcGQ

wolverine87617• 2 years ago

same as with replacing an outlet at home, but more of a fire damage instead of a shock risk

Not a good comparison at all. The battery can burn down the entire building and kill everyone in it - or just burn them alive and leave them breathing. Don't forget all their property.

Your wall outlet will just knock you on your butt, afaik.

c_o_n_v_e_x• 2 years ago

There's a fair bit of design, validation, and certification that goes into making sure a pack is safe. The spot welding and wrapping is just the final result.

Thermal design to make sure the pack doesnt overheat under normal conditions. There's the mechanical side to make sure that the pack can survive shock and vibe.

Getting packs certified to UN38.3 or IEC62133 are no small feats. Unsurprisingly, the certification process is not cheap. For 62133, we had to provide a ton of samples.

consp• 2 years ago

You can also make them yourself at home, although it can get relatively dangerous if you don't know what you're doing... same as with replacing an outlet at home, but more of a fire damage instead of a shock risk, so definitely not for everyone, but with some basic precautions, can be done safely.

Did that for my semi-diy bike. Got an older Sparta with stupid DRM in it, removed all the sparta parts, made a custom PCB for the motor/hall sensors and had the NiMH battery replaced it with a custom 7s9p pack (in frame so was limited in options) resulting in a nice 650Wh battery instead of the 200Wh it used to have. Using recycled cells from a crashed scooter resulted in a (relatively) cheap, reused ebike.

JKCalhoun2• 2 years ago

Love to see something of a standard e-bike battery. Perhaps there is one in Southeast Asian markets....

Something roughly a liter, liter and a half in size. A standard, perhaps twist connector on the bottom. Various bike configs could incorporate a handful of these in locations that make sense for their bikes — the number of packs reflecting the range or torque requirements.

With a standard you could swap packs, get the cost benefits of scale...

celestialcheese• 2 years ago

You see this in Taiwan a lot already - https://cleantechnica.com/2023/01/11/gogoro-batteries-power-...

Standardized packs for low-end ebikes would be wonderful.

FinnKuhn• 2 years ago

Those are for scooters though, not ebikes.

JKCalhoun2• 2 years ago

I wonder if we can get those in the U.S. It doesn't look like that's the point though. They seem to sell the infrastructure, the batteries are part of it.

roughly• 2 years ago

The article goes to great pains to emphasize how concerning this is and how much of a safety risk it is seemingly without finding a single actual incident where the independent battery builders' batteries caused a problem. Frankly, given the level of quality control I've seen from large brands lately, I'm skeptical that the guy who's made it his business to build batteries for the last 20 years is delivering a worse product than what I'd get buying retail.

markhahn2• 2 years ago

More of this please!

It's astonishing how anti-modular various industries are. Even batteries, which for all their "oh no gonna blow" are really quite simple components. But why are cars not modular? How about HVAC? Housing is pretty modular.

Gigachad2• 2 years ago

These home made ebike batteries regularly catch fire and burn down apartments. Quite a lot of apartments in Australia are banning taking ebikes inside now.

markhahn2• 2 years ago

Regularly? That means that some nontrivial fraction are guaranteed to burn. I think you mean that it happens at low probability but is eagerly covered by media.

In any case, the fault is almost certainly either physical abuse (which has nothing to do with accessibility/modularity) or simply bad chargers (which better access would actually mitigate).

jwr• 2 years ago

Relevant: "Louis' front door goes BOOM courtesy of UnitPackPower battery" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCaDz_2YcGQ

Lithium Ion (and especially LiPo) are not to be trifled with, small things might matter (such as whether the battery is under mechanical stress, dented or bent). I would never want a large battery from a non-reputable supplier around my home.

RecycledEle• 2 years ago

This is just a hit piece from someone in the battery industry.

The dead giveaway the author has been in the battery industry for a long time is this: > Packers often use 18650 lithium-ion cells — essentially a larger, rechargeable version of a standard flashlight battery.

Then calling a group of people "packers" shows the author wants to label and dehumanize then.

mbgerring5• 2 years ago

Comments in this thread are hilarious. Making battery packs by connecting cells together is neither difficult nor especially dangerous. It’s soldering. Sometimes you’re just connecting wires to terminals. Anyone can do this. It’s not a big deal.

rldjbpin• 2 years ago

those in the diy space are very well aware about assembling your own batteries as mentioned by others.

their approach does not seem too different from the norm, but it is interesting to see it happen at commercial level. from an economic standpoint, the countries producing commodity cells can stand to benefit a lot from cottage industries like this to increase electric mobility.

1-6• 2 years ago

In other headlines: “Tech worker builds batteries in his own room after work”

This is just assembling cells, not building a battery from scratch.

asimpleusecase• 2 years ago

It’s not just fire but explosion as well with bad battery packs. Some years ago some friend bought a “comparable” laptop battery off eBay for an older laptop. They were charging it one day and battery exploded. Fortunately they were not sitting in front of it. I was in the office when my friend got the call from his wife and asked me to come look at the computer. We arrived with smoke in the room and little fires burning in different corners of the room with a scorch mark on the desk and the laptop in the middle of the floor with smoke wafting out of it. I dug some charred plastic out of the battery compartment and hooked it up to external power and it booted ok. Be safe out there kids.

Indonesia's e-bike shops are building their own batteries

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