The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17155304

by antonellis • 14 years ago

103 143 14 years ago

bbc.co.uk

mahmud• 14 years ago

(If you were confused why the "Most X" column is not the same as "Least X" but in reverse order, it's because the list is not exhaustive.)

louischatriot• 14 years ago

Unfortunately, as long as Greek companies don't pay taxes, Greeks can work as hard as they can the situation will continue to deteriorate.

patrickk• 14 years ago

Not sure why you were downvoted, widespread tax evasion in Greece is certainly a contributing factor for the trouble they're in. You can build an apartment building, have an 'uncompleted' top floor, and therefore pay no tax on the building.

http://www.vanityfair.com/business/features/2010/10/greeks-b...

kamaal5• 14 years ago

Well BBC ran a show last night. And it did show the some reasons why Greece is such trouble today.

It turns out people spent like crazy, far beyond their means. Things like electricians driving Porsche's and High End Mercedes cars. All of it imported from Germany. When a nation full of people with government included involves in such spending it is but other wise natural that they price for it later on.

The anchor did explain that it wasn't just weak institutions and bad government policies. It was reckless lifestyle spending on part of Greeks. It seems many Greeks now want to sell of their costly cars, which are now believed to sell for less than half the price they bought it. So what happens? If they are unable to pay the loans and Bank take the cars. Banks still get only ~50% of what they lent. Its step by step collapse of a whole system.

In many ways, the institutions, like Banks are responsible too, for lending out money like that- unchecked. But the whole system is to be blamed. People, Government and everybody else involved.

On the other hand they also showed, Germany and how they manage their economy.

Now lets look at it, Greeks might work harder than Germans. That is no indication of why Greece is such crisis today. Apart from working and earning you also need to manage your money well. Why spend more than what you can earn?

Also scenes in Greece were heart warming, difficult to believe its 21st century Europe. Its almost like a third world country. People begging on streets, sleeping on footpaths, Eating from what is distributed. Couples relying on free clinics for minimal healthcare. As I said, only the Infrastructure looked grand. Otherwise it looked like a third world country.

arethuza6• 14 years ago

"Its almost like a third world country"

If it looks like a third world country, then where did all the money go? Presumably the majority of people aren't driving around in Porsches?

jussij2• 14 years ago

> where did all the money go

They spent the money.

It's no difference to running up a big credit card debt, but at some point you have to pay it back.

What went wrong for Greece was it maxed out it's government credit card and none of the banks would let them up their credit limit.

Now the goverment doesn't have a lot of money comming in but it still has a massive debt.

That debt has to be payed back or else they have to default (i.e. go bankrupt).

zerostar077• 14 years ago

It's definitely not a third world country. Despite the crisis, greeks still have good free healthcare and education and crime is still low. Don't know for how long though.

The thing with the Porsches is a hyperbole, but it's also true that Greeks have become avid spenders in the past decade. There is this Nielsen report that showed that in 2008 Greece was number 1(!) in (designer) brand awareness worldwide: http://pl.nielsen.com/site/documents/ConsumersandDesignerBra... . Not a healthy sign for a country that produces almost none of those expensive products.

Most of this money went to vitalize local markets that had no future, such as construction (building very expensive houses in a country that already has one of the highest home-ownership rates in europe), food/entertainment and retail. Very little was spent on investing, mainly because tight regulations make it hard to take business risks.

josephcooney• 14 years ago

The phrase "third world" has nothing to do with economic conditions, and everything to do with allegiance to a particular policito-economic block. Thanks to the work of the allies (and particularly the brits) during the closing parts of WW2 Greece is aligned with NATO after WW2. After the collapse of the soviet union I don't know that it makes much sense to talk about 1st, 2nd and 3rd world countries any more.

kqr22• 14 years ago

Are you referring to this documentary?

Michael Portillo's Great Euro Crisis

From http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01hllyd

Self-confessed Eurosceptic Michael Portillo visits debt-stricken Greece. He believes that the euro crisis must have shaken the Greeks' faith in Europe's single currency and wonders if there'll be a desire to revert to the free-floating drachma. In Athens he meets everyone from a destitute young family to the former finance minister and the outgoing Prime Minister, and is surprised by some of their answers.

Meanwhile in Germany, Europe's economic powerhouse, Michael encounters the taxpayers who are paying most towards Greece's mammoth financial bailout while having to watch angry Athenians burning the German flag.

With tensions rising in the Eurozone, is this the moment it becomes more united, or will it be pulled apart?

kamaal5• 14 years ago

Yes that's the documentary, Its a nice one to watch.

What I realized about the entire chapter of Greece was that you can't blame the government and corporations for all the problems in the world.

Sometimes we as individuals need to step back and think of our own financial future. Reckless spending on our behalf without planning for the future are disastrous. Savings and investments are important for our future. And we need to think of it.

There is a point where the government's job ends and ours begins.

smcl2• 14 years ago

I don't think that's why these stats are interesting. There seems to be a stereotype of lazy Greeks being bailed out by hard-working Germans. These OECD stats (which I originally checked out after an episode of Radio Open Source featuring economist Mark Blyth) show that this is just another example of an ugly, incorrect stereotype.

kamaal5• 14 years ago

Although I agree that its wrong to say All Greeks are lazy, Its also true that they didn't manage their money well.

Now I'm not too much of an economist. But I would be annoyed if my money is used to bail out somebody for mistakes they made.

diminish• 14 years ago

I agree; let us not forget that due to EU, Greeks got looser borrowing from banks, and they bought German products. Last time I was in Romania for a business trip, I saw a similar picture. Goods flow from Western Europe to Romania together with easy credit. That spoils people quickly.

Uchikoma8• 14 years ago

The reason for economic growth in Germany and the crisis in parts of Europe can easily be found in the first graph:

http://www.voxeu.org/index.php?q=node/7536

(Google unit labor costs for more sources)

lispm4• 14 years ago

The number of Greek electricians driving Porsche is not very high. Also the German exports to Greece are also not that big (from both sides).

In reality Greece imports from all over the place. It also imports a lot of energy sources. It has a huge military with costly imports (parts from that also from Germany). Also the money does not come especially from Germany. If you look at the banks, they are from France, Italy, Germany, US, etc.

Avoiding paying tax is a sport - especially for some of the very rich families in Greece.

There are several other reasons.

There are a lot of people in Greece who work hard and a lot of people who don't work that hard. There is a huge and relatively unproductive government sector for example.

How many hours people work is really not that important. In Germany people may work fewer hours, but the work is much more focused. After the necessary working hours many workers actually go home. In many other countries workers spend more time at to workplace without being productive. Also there are large parts of the industry which have lots of robots. For example in car manufacturing you find 10000+ robots working. You would find that level of automation only in a few places on this planet. Not so much in Greece.

kqr22• 14 years ago

Substitute electrician for farmer...

From http://www.athensnews.gr/portal/9/49503 :

Larisa, which has about 250,000 inhabitants, is the capital of the agricultural region of Thessaly in central Greece.

Larissa “is the talk of the town in Stuttgart, the cradle of the German automobile industry, and, particularly, in the Porsche headquarters there”, since it “tops the list, world-wide, for the per-capita ownership of Porsche Cayennes”.

batista4• 14 years ago

Well BBC ran a show last night. And it did show the some reasons why Greece is such trouble today. It turns out people spent like crazy, far beyond their means. Things like electricians driving Porsche's and High End Mercedes cars. All of it imported from Germany. When a nation full of people with government included involves in such spending it is but other wise natural that they price for it later on.

If BBC did run such a show, then, as a Greek, I can tell you it was bollocks.

In fact, in you check the private (homes + enterprises) debt for Greece as compared to the GNP you will see that it is quite small, actually one of the smallest in the western Europe.

Plus, even for this private debt, the majority is in the form of housing loans (= to buy a house). So, no "electricians driving Porsches". Well, you could find one or two maybe. But I doubt you could find five of them.

Now, state spending is another story altogether.

I will get in more detail when I can.

muyuu7• 14 years ago

Heh it cracked me up too.

"Well BBC ran a show last night" therefore it must be true and I can now give you all my expert opinion in the matter.

Private debt is much higher in the UK than in Greece, both in relative and in absolute terms. Public debt is probably second in line to Greece, it's a close race with Italy and maybe some smaller Eastern countries. I wonder if the BBC covered that last night.

rmc• 14 years ago

Why spend more than what you can earn?

Because you can generate more wealth than the interest costs you, and hence everyone can get wealthier. Government and people and companies have been borrowing money to spend on things for ages.

nickik6• 14 years ago

That is quite right and works for buissnesses, sometimes. Buissnesses are part of the market and they have competition. Government is a hole other thing, Government can creat wealth too, matters differ on how often that happens.

Specially in the last 10 year (or longer) most government didn't seam to be much of investing there money smartly.

hetman• 14 years ago

I think there's a big difference in investing money in things that will generate more money, and spending it on luxuries that will only depreciate in value. I expect the parent was referring to the latter not the former.

yequalsx• 14 years ago

When a market is flooded with easy, cheap money distortions occur. Witness the housing excesses in the U.S. prior to 2008. This is a phenomenon of human nature. Excess credit inevitably leads to too many bad loans.

cafard• 14 years ago

This stuff is cyclical. The deregulation of S&L rates in the 1980s led to huge problems.

damncabbage• 14 years ago

It also doesn't help that tax evasion is almost a national sport.

MrKurtHaeusler• 14 years ago

Well obviously they should work less then. Most people I know who spend less time working tend to enjoy life more, look better, have more money and live longer.

Oh and they are more austere.

john61• 14 years ago

It does not matter how long you work. What matters is what you get done in a week.

cmdkeen• 14 years ago

This. The far more important column is the second one about Productivity. And Germany leads the way there with no mention for Greece.

Working more hours to produce the same thing is bad, not good.

tluyben22• 14 years ago

Leads the way? Belgium and the Netherlands are higher. In that table (where did they get those numbers) I would say Norway + Netherlands 'win'; least hours, most productive. For me as a programmer that's exactly how it should be.

kristofferR• 14 years ago

Yeah, there may actually be an inverse correlation between the length of work and productivity. It seems that way according to the chart at least.

beloch• 14 years ago

Greece could be the most productive country in the EU and their government would still be in dire straits. Tax evasion is endemic. It doesn't matter how much people are making if almost nobody is paying their taxes. The Greek government has started cracking down, but Greek disrespect for taxation has been building for generations and won't die easily.

zerostar077• 14 years ago

It was (and mostly still is) so easy to avoid taxes in Greece that it's fair to say the burden is on the government more than the people. I believe it's difficult to make people tax-conscious when they see that it's so easy for everyone around them to steal. The tax authorities here are corrupt, underqualified, and have a very low rate of tax collection. It's so bad that it had better be replaced altogether.

varjag2• 14 years ago

Greece is a democracy. The government is representative of its people.

tluyben22• 14 years ago

Same in Spain. People look at you in disgust if you ask something about taxes; 'why would you do that?'. And if you desperately WANT to pay tax, they made it INCREDIBLY difficult. I thought the Netherlands was bureaucratic, but that's really child's play compared what you have to do in Spain (for practically anything official).

dasil003• 14 years ago

Why is there no mention of taxes here? Isn't the single biggest factor that the Greek tax system is corrupt from the ground up?

zerostar077• 14 years ago

That number is (more than) a bit misleading. I don't know where OECD pulls those numbers but it certainly doesn't feel as if Greeks work more than the average european. Shops dont work on sundays, public services are open for only a few hours a day, banks close at 2 etc. Underproductivity is a major issue, most of the work of public services is unnecessary red tape that could be easily automated if the government was willing.

Work hours is not our major problem, it's work ethics that are lacking. Hard work is not compensated, it is in fact frowned upon in the public sector, and this situation has even infiltrated much of the private sector. Absurd regulation and governmental dependencies has stifled competition in all but a few sectors (where it works it works reasonably well, such as telecommunications or banking). Couple that with a hostile investing environment and you have the perfect recipe for disaster.

That said, Greeks in general are industrious and entrepreneurial, but we tend to channel our inventiveness on finding ways to avoid paying taxes. Personally i believed from the start that Greece should have exited the euro in order to revitalize its dormant economy.

Heliosmaster• 14 years ago

Are you sure? Because I find shops open from early morning till late night: from general goods to restaurants and so on.

zerostar077• 14 years ago

What about everything else? Are gas stations open on sundays? Pharmacies in the afternoon? Are government offices open after 13:00?

krolley• 14 years ago

The article paints a different picture anyway. Greeks apparently have the most worked hours, while Germans have the second-fewest worked hours. Greece is 7th _least_ productive and Germany is 7th _most_ productive.

When Germans come in to work, there is surprisingly little socialising. When they work, they work hard. Also, the difference in hours worked is probably solely due to the difference in the number of part timers between the countries. 2000 hours per year (avg. Greek hours per year) is only 38 hours per week.

tallanvor• 14 years ago

Admittedly my exposure to opening hours in Greece is limited to the tourist areas, but I've found they have longer opening hours than most places in Western Europe. --Definitely longer hours than the UK, Germany, or anywhere in Scandinavia!

drzaiusapelord• 14 years ago

>Work hours is not our major problem, it's work ethics that are lacking.

The problem here is that you can't quantify "ethics." Up until today everyone believed your average Greek worked 3-4 hours a day and drank coffee the rest of the day. So your side has been debunked and you come back with "ethics?" Really?

At the end of the day these issues are fairly complex. There are a lot of Greeks who work hard, are far from lazy (as per German characterization), and have more or less been betrayed by their government. I also think its incredibly naive to think they could have a German-like efficiency becuse efficiency in manufacturing can only happen with deep pocketed corporations as well as a technical sector that can produce robotics and a worldwide market for its electronics of cars. We can build a Greek auto manufacturer with big loans today, make it incredibly efficient, etc but there's no market for Greek cars.

The lazy Greek stereotype needs to die. Yes, they have a very young retiree age and their tax system is a mess, but they're probably a handful of reforms away from fixing all this. Oh well, back to your typical stereotype based bashing.

zerostar077• 14 years ago

I agree it's a stereotype, and i agree that it only takes a few reforms to fix it, but attacking the stereotype won't fix anything. My experience from working in both the private and public sector (and now luckily as an entrepreneur) is this, and i m not bashing anyone, but there is such a thing called "work ethic" and i 've lived long enough to watch it being bent with unsustainable consequences.

I disagree that it takes a mountain of money to do anything successful, especially in technology, even in Greece (and it is happening, but successful businesses tend to be quiet). However you do need entrepreneurs who can do more than just lobby the government for public sector works.

Irishsteve• 14 years ago

Time spent in work is not time spent working. All my greek buddies have a easy gong day. They are in work a number of hours, but how productive those hours are who knows.

amueller• 14 years ago

Fun thing that this article doesn't mention: in Germany it is very, very common to work extra hours that are not paid and not in the books. This is particularly true for high profile jobs.

skore2• 14 years ago

That highly depends on what line of business we are talking about. In some "new" jobs like Design or even Programming it may be true. But the meat of the German Economy - the part that is highly influenced by unions - is far away from that. I would assume that, writing this on Hacker News, you are probably in the former line of work and don't see that it's very different for average folks.

kahawe3• 14 years ago

> in Germany it is very, very common to work extra hours that are not paid and not in the books

I am working in Germany and what are you talking about? More specifically which industry? The employment laws here are so ridiculously pro-employee that I basically need to "excuse" and justify myself if I was to work more than X hours a week. And typically, at least in IT, a certain amount of overtime (or a "flat charge") is in your contract and you get more salary for that - more than the so called "collective agreement" requires your employer to pay you. So for most people in regular jobs, I doubt this holds true. Maybe small IT startups try to squeeze the youngens by circumventing all laws and regulations? At least where I am working, typical German bigger but not huge company, you can set your clock by how punctual they show up to and especially leave work; shortly after 5pm they can start cleaning here because that's when practically the whole building is empty except for some poor souls like me.

"High profile", executive level jobs are different, that is true but this is to be expected at that level and pay rate and I doubt you will find any other country where this doesn't hold true.

fforw• 14 years ago

I think it's more common with larger companies and the corresponding 9-to-5 attitude.

I work for as architect for a small consultancy/software-development company and I'm paid the same salary no matter how many hours I actually work. Contract says 40 h/week, but there are weeks when I reach the 40 on wednesday. MIght be able to work less than 40 hours when times are not as stressful (haha), but the average has to be clearly above 40 h/week.

twelvechairs• 14 years ago

This is not a very relevant statistic. Note for instance the semi-slave factory workers of Asia who on average would work much harder and longer hours than either of these two groups, but end up with much less money and a worse lifestyle. Now why is that? (and how can I fit it within my pre-existing ideological bias?)

anton_c• 14 years ago

It's very easy to blame simple people for the mess that capitalism created. "They spent a lot". Really? Who's to say? Did you ever wonder how much is spend on high tech weapons by your government? Do you KNOW what YOUR country's public debt is? Are YOU responsible for it (because you're gonna be held accountable for it either way).

As easy as it is to buy mainstream media "analysis" it's also just that - mainstream, meaning that it is designed to keep the powers that be from safe from criticism.

What happens in Greece is that we're taking loans upon loans to save defaulted banks that are based mainly in Greece, Germany and France. Tax evasion, porsches' and the rest are dirty propaganda designed to hide the crime that's being perpetuated. Saving failed capitalists (mainly banks up to now) by robbing the laymen.

As for the tax evasion bit, it's mostly true if we are to speak for a small fraction of the Greek population - namelly the rich and superrich Greeks. All the rest are paying our due for nothing - meaning that our taxes (for me it's about 50% of my gross income) are used to refinance loans and not a single dime goes to roads,health or education.

Bear also in mind that for two decades every banks were all over people to persuade them to get loans (sth like the mortgage situation in USA) which were used to buy shit from Germany and France (that's why many say that these countries surplasses are European south deficits). This was evident at a state level too with huge amounts going to buy arms from these two countries. Arms that were of no use.

Anyway, this issue is far from simple and what's more you, no matter where you're from, are far from just spectators. What happens in Greece (namely the ripoff of any hind of welfare state + the death of the middle class) is just an experiment to be continued in virtually every western country. It's the way that western capitalism wants to proceed - and bear in mind that what really counts is workers wages (that have been slashed in Greece since the begining of all this crisis) - many big heads waiving their finger have told us Greeks, that the only way to get back to economic development again is to be OK with chinese salaries. We're trying to take that fingers and put them back where they belong and maybe you should try thinking your line of defense against those failed bussinessmen and politicians.

A Greek.

angry-hacker• 14 years ago

Okay, but maybe your living of standard is "chinese wages". What I mean by that much lower standard of living. Why should other countries taxpayers because you don't want to accept the reality?

skore2• 14 years ago

The reason why you're being downvoted is because your argument is weak and, frankly, your tone is annoying.

> Do you KNOW what YOUR country's public debt is?

> not a single dime goes to roads,health or education

You cannot claim that the strawman you are postulating your response to doesn't know the first (it's very simple to look up) and thinks you are competent on the second statement (it's painfully obvious to be a fabrication).

Yes, there are problems like an eroding of the middle class or waste in government. But that's the same all over Europe - So why is it different in Greece? They are certainly not the only ones who have to bail out businesses or banks.

> As for the tax evasion bit, it's mostly true if we are to speak for a small fraction of the Greek population - namelly the rich and superrich Greeks. All the rest are paying our due for nothing [...]

Well, that's not at all an easy way to pass blame, is it?

> [...] for two decades every banks were all over people to persuade them to get loans [...] buy shit from Germany and France (that's why many say that these countries surplasses are European south deficits). This was evident at a state level too with huge amounts going to buy arms from these two countries.

And this is the point at which you finally lose all credibility. It simply does not compute.

yummyfajitas• 14 years ago

It's very easy to blame simple people for the mess that capitalism created.

Greece has a problem with government debt. How do you blame capitalism for this?

What happens in Greece is that we're taking loans upon loans to save defaulted banks that are based mainly in Greece, Germany and France.

If that is the only problem, why not simply default and let the banks fail?

pessimizer• 14 years ago

They really need to, and a large portion of the populace seems to be fighting for it.

Also, I'm not sure that we can blame Greek public debt for the rise in interest rates that's actually killing the country, seeing as Spain is going through a similar thing and they were running surpluses.

stefanve• 14 years ago

The hours worked figure is misleading. in The Netherlands, Germany etc workforce participation rate of women are much higher. But because women tent to work mostly part-time, especially if they have kids, average the number is really low. Also a lot of young family's split this time as both parent's work part time to spend time with the kids. A normal work week is about 40 hours so if you take out 6 weeks for vacation days, sick days etc your left with 1840 hours. I think a more interesting number would be average work time per household I suspect that the list would look differently.

_k• 14 years ago

We're led to believe the solution to this economic crisis is either getting deeper in debt or more austerity measures (higher taxes, less subsidies) We're led to believe it's either A or B. It's neither A or B for most countries. The truth of the matter is that it's a political problem. We have to reduce the size of the government.

novalis• 14 years ago

... and jail the corrupt people that hold public office yet act against the citizens in any way. Until that moment in time, nothing good will come out of this and the status quo will just keep on rolling and smashing everyone in its way.

TelmoMenezes• 14 years ago

I don't know about Greece, but I grew up in Portugal, and I suspect there are some similarities. People in Portugal "work" long hours. But they also work in a very infective way: long useless meetings, everything requires lengthy social interactions, bizantine bureaucracy, too many managers for too few real workers and so on. There are complex cultural problems that cannot be expressed by such simplistic metrics (and that, unfortunately, cannot be solved with quick fixes).

phatbyte• 14 years ago

As a portuguese also, I totally subscribe this. Hence the reason I don't work in/for Portugal anymore, and I won't until this mentality is gone for good.

iaskwhy• 14 years ago

I'm also from Portugal but I have been working in London for some time now. Curiously, I don't see much of a difference besides now working only from 9 to 6 instead of working from 9 to 10. Same useless meetings, a very long line for coffee all day long, everyone is a manager, etc.

My opinion is a simple one: some countries sell stuff others want, some don't. We were just unlucky and not smart enough to value our geographical position in the world.

webnographer• 14 years ago

I have seen many greetideas come from Portugal, the challange is getting the ideas out of the door.You can read here about the start up scene in Lisbon http://squaxor.posterous.com/lisbon-the-startup-spirit

swah3• 14 years ago

Input vs output

swah3• 14 years ago

I'm not sure that's specific to Portugal - in Brazil most of the companies are like that as well.

But that's only going to change when "we" build companies with that culture, no?

ArbitraryLimits• 14 years ago

Have you guys ever worked for a big company in the United States? Because I have some news for you...

Seriously though, it's interesting to hear these opinions about the sources of work inefficiency inside the EU. I'm American but lived in Italy for several years in the late 90s, and "Why is our economy so inefficient?" was a common topic of discussion at the time. Almost no one thought it was because of long meetings or too many managers; there seemed to be a consensus among the people I spoke with that the number one problem was the type of regulation mentioned above (e.g. not being able to sell books after 18h in a bookstore).

It's important to realize that lots of those regulations do actually have a purpose, which is to keep certain sectors of the economy dominated by small sole proprietorships instead of by big corporations. Again with the bookstore example, a Borders or Barnes and Noble or any other big box store chain would just give up on such a market. On the other hand, an owner/operator of a small bookstore would either find loopholes (like this owner's swap with the cafe owner across the street) or else they just grease the right palms and work around the rules. In either case, success depends on the kind of social capital big corporations will never have.

TL;DR The purpose of these "senseless" regulations is to keep shops in Europe small and charming. Inefficiency is the tradeoff.

kahawe3• 14 years ago

One thing that I always find very unsettling when reading things like that: how Germany is somehow always an epitome of efficiency and productiveness. I am working here and I absolutely do NOT perceive it like that and friends who are also working here confirmed that impression. We are constantly swapping horror-stories of stupid bureaucracy, lengthy extremely bloated processes, having to do things five times, lazy people, stupid people, people who have no idea about their job and no education, tons of stupid "office wars/games" going on, lengthy discussions about very petty things and just for the sake of "but I was actually right" and so on and so forth...

The only conclusion is then, it is much much MUCH worse elsewhere? Really?? (Or is this just some sort of "halo effect"?)

f4stjack• 14 years ago

I don't know about Greece but the statistics in the page are quite disturbing to read. You do long work hours to be more productive, but in the end (probably it has more factors than that but I am simplifying it) it doesn't do you any good so you do overtime, which damages your productivity even more...

This is the most damned vicious cycle I've ever seen I think...

vetler3• 14 years ago

Very interesting to see that Norway is the 2nd most productive, but ranks 3rd in fewest hours worked! Makes me feel good about leaving work at four. ;)

gizzlon• 14 years ago

But what is that number anyway? It's probably just GNP / people. ? Norway will look good in that respect due to the oil.

vetler3• 14 years ago

Doesn't say, unfortunately.

"They are collected by individual national statistics authorities who each have their own methods of collecting and collating information."

swah3• 14 years ago

OTOH I rather have a flexible work schedule than a strict-but-short one ("you always have to get here at 8 and leave at 4").

vetler3• 14 years ago

Oh, we have that too. Just because I chose to get in at 8 this morning, doesn't mean I have to. YMMV, of course, but flexible hours are the norm in the IT industry.

elorant• 14 years ago

As a Greek I have to admit that this number tells half the truth. The other half is that in terms of productivity Greece is very low. So while we may work a lot more than the average German the quality of the products/services we provide is significantly worse.

nailer• 14 years ago

As well as the issues other posters have mentioned, the HN title (though not the article) is misleading as the Greek retirement age was 55 until recently.

Working 40% longer hours each week, but cutting a decade off your career, does not mean you work 40% longer.

Tichy2• 14 years ago

I heard some of them even hold two full time jobs at the same time, receiving double salary. And that is in government employment, one of the most stressful jobs available in Greece.

aoprisan• 14 years ago

There is a difference between "working" and working.. "working" in a highly inefficient system is very different than working fewer hours in a more efficient system

balajiviswanath• 14 years ago

As the 4 columns show, productivity & hours worked go diametrically opposite (negatively correlated). All the countries in the most working list are also in the least productive list. So, it still doesn't change the German assertion that Greeks are not doing enough.

Second, the article itself accepts - " because the two labour markets are structured differently, it is actually hard to compare like with like."

That means the headline is pointless as it is contradicted by the sentence above.

ck2• 14 years ago

As I understand it, Greece's problem is the wealthy completely dodge taxes, putting the burden on everyone else (or collapsing the government). It's an idealized version of America's wealthy dream-state.

Uchikoma8• 14 years ago

I'm biased, I'm German.

But last year I think there was an article linked that explained how Germans have more productivity output per year than US Americans, although Germans have more holidays.

Said that, it's obviously a generalization. I'd think it's very company specific, and depends on many factors, especially the number of "meetings" one has to attend, those that are not work because they have no agenda, no action items, no decisions made etc.

Produce• 14 years ago

I am not surprised that the most hard working populations are the most unproductive. The mythical man-hour doesn't just apply to software.

JumpCrisscross• 14 years ago

Facts that reconcile this article with what we already know:

1. The Greek labour market is inefficient. That is why so many people work in small (inefficient) shops. Closed shop regulation for many professions lock people out of high wage occupations. Next to Portugal's 28% high school graduation rate [1] Greece's recent progress (<50% of 25-64 year olds completing high school in 1997 versus 61% today [2]) is valiant but the leaves an uneducated, unproductive generation untouched. It also doesn't account for Greeks' shorter working years.

2. Doing business is tough. Here is an anecdote from a financial commentator in Athens:

"My friend explained that the owner of the bookstore/café couldn’t get a license to provide coffee. She had tried to just buy a coffee machine and give the coffee away for free, thinking that lingering patrons would boost book sales. However, giving away coffee was illegal as well. Instead, the owner had to strike a deal with a bar across the street, whereby they make the coffee and the waitress spends all day shuttling between the bar and the bookstore/café. My friend also explained to me that books could not be purchased at the bookstore, as it was after 18h and it is illegal to sell books in Greece beyond that hour. I was in a bookstore/café that could neither sell books nor make coffee." [3]

3. The government used cheap loans not for infrastructure or reform, but to pay public servants and build a military.

4. The government lied about its finances and is depravedly corrupt.

[1] http://m.upi.com/m/story/UPI-16361301069117/

[2] http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/44/21/48657344.pdf

[3] http://fabiusmaximus.wordpress.com/2012/03/01/36085/

ctdonath• 14 years ago

"books could not be purchased at the bookstore, as it was after 18h and it is illegal to sell books in Greece beyond that hour. I was in a bookstore/café that could neither sell books nor make coffee."

Unreal.

Note that it wasn't that the store was somehow incompetent, it's that doing something as simple & normal as selling a book after 6PM is illegal. Giving away brewed-in-house coffee is illegal. I'm having trouble articulating how profoundly outrageous this is, how self-destructive a country is which not only enacts such regulations but, it seems, tolerates it.

If mere sale of a book is prohibited during any hours (much less perfectly reasonable & normal hours), outsiders will find it hard to extend sympathy and aid to a country so keen on destroying its own economy via absurd legislation and citizens so willing to comply. I'm glad to help the needy, but that stops quick when the recipient won't quit obviously self-destructive behavior.

jhpriestley• 14 years ago

A commenter from the page you linked:

the anecdote about the bookstore is very weird. Bookstores in Greece are open (and selling) until 9pm, not before 6pm as in the anecdote, I’m not sure what’s up with that. Airport bookstores are often open (and selling) 24 hours/day. I live in Greece and after seeing this article spread all over the internet, went to a local bookstore last night just to check. The bookstore owner looked at me like I was out of my mind. “Would I be sitting here burning the lights and paying my employee if I couldn’t sell books? That makes no sense.” So, you know, there’s that…. (And I’ve personally bought books late into the night in many, many parts of Greece.) Don’t let that affect how you interpret such anecdotes, of course. Even if something is wrong, if it sounds correct, we might as well treat it as such, right? I think that’s how this works….

It seems to me, too, like an extraordinary story, I'd like to see more context on this supposed ban on bookselling in the evening.

forgotAgain• 14 years ago

This article would be much more beneficial if it went beyond pointing out inaccuracies in common beliefs, and explained where they came from. As given it simply regurgitates self reported government statistics and provides no insight.

conformal• 14 years ago

working longer hours != working more or harder.

much of the financial problems in .gr (and .it) have occurred because many citizens do not declare the bulk of their income, then, lo and behold, there is insufficient tax revenue to pay for the myriad government services. there are more porsche cayennes in .gr than there are people who declared over EUR 50K income in 2010.

based on the fact that .gr has essentially committed long-term fraud with their financials i put absolutely zero stock in any claim that "they're working harder than germany".

sure, there are some greeks who work really hard and are productive, but if you've spent any decent amount of time in other countries that border the mediterranean sea you'll notice that their definition of "work" is very different from most people from a less pleasant climate.

dagw• 14 years ago

there are more porsche cayennes in .gr than there are people who declared over EUR 50K income in 2010

That 'fact' is not only completely untrue, but utterly ridiculous and off by several orders of magnitude. There where over 300000 people declaring of EUR 50k in income in 2010, while Porsche has sold 1500 Cayennes in Greece since launch.

JoachimSchipper• 14 years ago

Flagged for politics.

jakeonthemove• 14 years ago

Germans are known for their efficiency, not hard work. Besides, a rested worker is more productive than an overworked one. Germany has got it right.

Also, starting a business in Germany is much easier than in Greece - it's on par with the US and UK, while Greece is more restrictive for some reason...

Uchikoma8• 14 years ago

But only recently. It was a nightmare founding a limited 10 years ago (GmbH) when I founded a startup, it's quite easy today when my wife founded a startup (UG).

Many Germans founded Ltds in Britain on paper, that made the government see the need to change some laws.

woodpanel• 14 years ago

When we talk about the shortcomings of Greece we should not forget that Greece was under military dictatorship up until the middle of the 70's (as were Spain and Portugal). And there were several terrorist bombings afterwards (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Organization_17_N... just to name one of many groups).

As a German I'm getting tired of painting the Greeks as lazy. It's rather their country that's in a mess.

junto• 14 years ago

Greece's problems are predominantly due to state debt, caused by:

1) State Fraud and Corruption: "In early 2010, it was revealed that successive Greek governments had been found to have consistently and deliberately misreported the country's official economic statistics to keep within the monetary union guidelines."

2) Public Tax Evasion: "Greece suffers from very high levels of tax evasion. In the last quarter of 2005, tax evasion reached 49%,[142] while in January 2006 it fell to 41.6%.[142] The Tax Justice Network has said that there are over €20 billion in Swiss bank accounts held by Greeks."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Greece

My personal opinion is that I really don't see why the rest of Europe should bail the Greeks out. They should be booted out of the Euro.

> "The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German" Amount of time worked != productivity.

gruseom• 14 years ago

We keep hearing about the lazy Greeks being bailed out, but isn't it really the banks who lent too much money to Greece who are being bailed out? If the Greeks are so lazy and corrupt, then it was foolish to lend them so much. Why should laziness be punished while foolishness is rewarded? Which poses the greater systemic threat?

The average Greek is working a full 40% longer than the average German

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