iPhone owners can leave EU for 30 days before they lose third-party app stores

https://www.imore.com/iphone/apple-confirms-iphone-owners-can-travel-outside-the-eu-for-30-days-before-they-lose-access-to-third-party-app-stores

by commoner • 2 years ago

93 189 2 years ago

imore.com

_visgean2• 2 years ago

Apple really trying to be the asshole here. Imagine installing work apps that disappear after 30 days.. Also what happens if the user chooses not to share their live location with apple?

CubsFan10607• 2 years ago

They don't lose access to the apps. I suspect the phone itself is what disables it, not sending the location to Apple.

randmeerkat• 2 years ago

They don't lose access to the apps. I suspect the phone itself is what disables it, not sending the location to Apple.

Imagine paying a thousand dollars for a computer that actively sabotages its user based on their gps data… All because the manufacturer wants to control how someone can install a piece of software on it…

gumby271• 2 years ago

I'm not sure the nuance of technically not sending to Apple really matters when we talk about iOS. iOS is Apple's loyal servant, does it really matter if their control is exacted server or client side? That line is pretty blurry when it comes to Apple in general.

_visgean2• 2 years ago

If the phone would not send location data then it would need to store quite a bit of geographical data to be able to accurately say if you spend last 30 days in EU. That might be harder in border regions...

Sayrus2• 2 years ago

Or worse, imagine realizing you forgot one important app when reaching your destination. Uber doesn't exist in the country you went to? You can now only install this country's taxi app through the App Store since your alternative app marketplace lost its ability to install apps...

However, you must be in the European Union to install alternative app marketplaces and new apps from alternative app marketplaces

CubsFan10607• 2 years ago

I'm confused at the scenario you are presenting. So in this case, you travel out of the EU, but are installing a taxi app from a non-eu country, but the app is only available in the EU?

chipweinberger• 2 years ago

the phone disables itself without sharing to apple

dylan6046• 2 years ago

the phone is not disabled

Aloisius5• 2 years ago

Installed apps don't disappear.

Access to the app store disappears.

lm4113• 2 years ago

Unless I misunderstand, the apps still work? They just can't be updated after 30 days and you can't install new apps from the third party stores.

Larrikin• 2 years ago

After MVP, the first security feature a mobile team should implement is a forced upgrade flow.

turquoisevar8• 2 years ago

No, you understand it correctly.

People are just being dramatic because they’re not getting what they want.

The DMA doesn’t even stipulate a 30 day provision, just a stipulation that it applies to people who live or are located in the EU. There’s a bit of wiggle room on how to read that (i.e., people who live in the EU, people who are located in the EU, people who live or are located in the EU) and Apple chose the middle road, presumably with the expectation that if it turns out to be an issue it’ll be settled before the CJEU.

m4632• 2 years ago

I wonder if you turn off location services, and use a european VPN, if you maintain access.

If you do not have access, I would wonder if they would run across the problem google ran into with private browsing, that people expect to have privacy.

In other words, if you turn off location services, that apple will not track your location and should have (legal) no way of knowing if you are inside or outside of the EU.

kayodelycaon• 2 years ago

The phone still needs to know which country you are in so it can follow local laws and regulations.

Apple doesn’t need to know where you are because the phone can enforce their rules offline.

diebeforei4852• 2 years ago

iPhone VPN's are not enabled when connecting with Apple's domains.

cyp0633• 2 years ago

Apple claims that not all traffic goes through the enabled VPN, so an European VPN may not make any difference

freeAgent7• 2 years ago

You'd probably also have to disable the cellular modem. If Apple are "smart" about this, they'll use location from cell towers.

paulpan2• 2 years ago

Wonder how stringent they'll try to be, since you could technically VPN even for a few hours back into an EU server to reset the 30-day period.

Or someone will inevitably create an app that will do this automatically & indefinitely.

politician• 2 years ago

Apple seems keen on demonstrating their dominance over government.

freeAgent7• 2 years ago

Government and everyone else.

JoshuaRogers• 2 years ago

Honestly, I laughed when I saw your username and the comment together.

dakial14• 2 years ago

That always ended well for all organizations that went head to head against governments…

paulddraper11• 2 years ago

Worked for Uber.

gruez3• 2 years ago

More like the fact that EU's reach isn't global, contrary to what many people here would like to be the case.

TheLoafOfBread6• 2 years ago

Brussels effect. EU come up with something, other powers will start implementing it too. Japan is already poking into Apple in the same way and India might join with their demands as well. I believe that China already has its own App Store and then you have only USA not willing to make regulations.

rchaud3• 2 years ago

So dominant, that they tried to spin an iPhone USB-C port as their own idea and not something they were ordered to implement.

samatman• 2 years ago

Whether or not that will be something the European Commission takes issue with, remains to be seen. After all, an EU citizen is an EU citizen even after they leave the EU.

I fail to see how this is in any way relevant. Cannabis is legal in Canada, and Canadians remain Canadian citizens abroad. If they're caught with cannabis in a country where it's illegal, they will be prosecuted for breaking the law. Laws don't follow people around like this.

20after4• 2 years ago

On the other hand, if you do something in a foreign country which is legal in that place but illegal in your home country, you can be prosecuted back home for it.

willcipriano• 2 years ago

Only some things in the US have "extraterritorial jurisdiction". Travel for child sex tourism (what Epsteins pals should be charged with) and bribery abroad for two examples.

[0]https://www.justice.gov/criminal/criminal-ceos/citizens-guid...

[1]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraterritorial_jurisdictio...

oyashirochama2• 2 years ago

Kind of, not entirely true for most laws, only ones of certain levels typically the big captial punishment or long term imprisonment ones such as rape, CP, murder, certain financial crimes, and conspiracies to commit said prior.

Drinking underage for example, most examples of drugs too. Even internally in the US they don't have specific right to arrest someone for smoking weed in a state that is legal as federal agents on state land (or private), not within 50 miles of a border.

choilive• 2 years ago

Not true, there are many laws that govern activities while you are abroad. Many countries have such laws on the books.

lm4113• 2 years ago

Yep.

But not rights.

WWLink• 2 years ago

This has nothing to do with laws. This has everything to do with Apple choosing how you will use the software on your device. And they're straight up insisting that if you don't live within a geographical area, the functionality of your device will change at their whim.

Honestly. Fuck them.

tmottabr10• 2 years ago

this is totally about the law.. third-party stores only exist in EU because there is a law that require then to exist.

And Apple devices already behave differently based on location.

Apple watches O2 and Heart functionalities are famously limited by the watch location at the time they are enabled, US being one place where O2 is not available at the moment even while you can have it in many other countries.

AnarchismIsCool• 2 years ago

Hot take: all of the above is stupid. Maybe we shouldn't make things life ending crimes when they're perfectly legal once you take a step across an imaginary line.

Maybe apple shouldn't be trying to lock down an object that they sold and no longer own and control.

Yes, I know, obviously there are situations where this mentality doesn't apply as cleanly. That doesn't mean we get to abandon all logic when it comes to legislation and corporate misbehavior.

drewthestu• 2 years ago

I think you have it a bit turned around. If I have a right under my country's laws based on my citizenship, my right doesn't cease to exist because I leave the country. For example, I continue to have 5th Amendment rights outside of the United States. Reid v. Covert, 354 U.S. 1 (1957).

I haven't read the decision that requires Apple to open up its devices to third party stores, but if that decision is somehow premised on rights conferred by EU citizenship, then the passage you quote would be valid.

pillusmany2• 2 years ago

Criminal rights are a different thing.

There are tons of commercial rights EU citizens have which don't apply if you are an EU citizen living in US - for example warranty rights.

tmottabr10• 2 years ago

that decision is about military tribunals that will judge acts of us citizens committed at other territories but under US law.

If you are in another country and is being prosecuted under that country laws the 5th amendment not only not apply but it (or a similar law) might not even exist.

ceejayoz2• 2 years ago

If you murder a Canadian overseas, then visit Canada, they will happily detain you.

paulddraper11• 2 years ago

They'll detain you regardless of the nationality of your victim.

TheLoafOfBread6• 2 years ago

How so? US citizens pays taxes to US government, even if they live on the Moon. So these duties are quite common.

ActualHacker• 2 years ago

How generous of them not to brick your phone once you install any unapproved software

It's almost like monopolies are bad for society

gruez3• 2 years ago

iOS isn't even the #1 mobile operating system in the EU. Even in countries where it's the majority, it caps out at around 60%. Characterizing that as a "monopoly" is absurd.

SAI_Peregrinus• 2 years ago

Which is why the DMA created the "gatekeeper" distinction. Monopolies aren't the only bad things for society.

freeAgent7• 2 years ago

How does this improve security?

dylan6046• 2 years ago

your malevolent actor must be good enough to hide from Apple's scrutiny instead of cousin Bill's App Store's highly qualified security professional.

BoiledCabbage• 2 years ago

It doesn't - none of what Apple is doing is security.

It's using the lack robust market competition to make tortured interpretations of DMA laws to continue to play rentier.

freeAgent7• 2 years ago

But I thought the only reason Apple prevented third-party stores and sideloaded apps in the first place was to improve security. Therefore, I’m sure that disabling app updates once someone spends a month outside the EU must improve security, too. Right!?

turquoisevar8• 2 years ago

What about this is a tortured interpretation of the DMA?

Article 1 clearly states the subject matter and scope of the DMA, with subsection 2 defining which end users it pertains to. As it should, because it would be bonkers for the EU to try and regulate anything outside of their jurisdiction.

Just say you wish it applied outside of the EU but that you understand the logical jurisdictional limitations and call it a day.

There’s no need for unwarranted loaded language.

geoffeg• 2 years ago

New business opportunity: A company that ships iPhones to Europe and installs/refreshes alternative app stores on them.

kccqzy• 2 years ago

A company that produces a device that fakes GPS (with extremely weak RF so as not to draw the ire of FCC or other government bodies) to convince the phone it is in Europe.

Aloisius5• 2 years ago

Cell towers and wifi base stations announce country code too. There's no guarantee they're using GPS.

op00to6• 2 years ago

This would be illegal, even at a low power.

extraduder_ire• 2 years ago

It's cheaper than that, if you're in the US. There's plenty of EU countries' land on the west side of the Atlantic. All over the world, in fact.

karaterobot• 2 years ago

I believe the grace period is entirely voluntary on their part, and since they're digging their heels in on the entire matter, I'm honestly surprised (though not impressed) by their generosity.

Apple had previously said that it would give EU citizens a period of graze

Three paragraph article. Couldn't proof read it. Fair enough.

Cheer2171• 2 years ago

Well with that obvious of an error, you know an LLM probably didn't write it.

dylan6046• 2 years ago

i'm curious of the author's normal use of the word graze that the autocorrect selected graze. do they type about farm/ranch animals that frequently? do they write about taking "samples" from the produce section of the grocery?

paulddraper11• 2 years ago

Everyone needs time to eat.

spywaregorilla2• 2 years ago

Does a european embassy count as EU?

dylan6046• 2 years ago

oh that's brilliant. i wonder how detailed Apple's geofence maps are, because by international law, you are absolutely correct in that is how they are considered.

eadler• 2 years ago

What makes you believe that to be the case?

I can't find anything here [0][1] which implies that embassies are foreign soil. I believe, for example, that if, hypothetically, a woman were to give birth in a US embassy they would not become a US citizen.

[0] https://legal.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventio...

[1] https://fam.state.gov/FAM/08FAM/08FAM030101.html#M301_1_3

user_78322• 2 years ago

Not only is this a great question, it's an excellent example of how pointless this arbitrary restriction is. Thanks, Tim Apple.

op00to6• 2 years ago

How is it a great question? The answer is no.

paulddraper11• 2 years ago

Who created an arbitrary policy?

EU regulators or Apple?

Aloisius5• 2 years ago

No.

op00to6• 2 years ago

No. Embassies and consulates are not considered the territory of that country. They have certain special properties and immunities. This is from the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations of 1961. This agreement says the premises of embassies to be inviolable, meaning the host country cannot enter them without permission from the embassy's country. This makes it seem like embassies are like islands of their home country within a foreign nation.

However, the land on which an embassy is situated remains under the sovereignty of the host country, not the country that the embassy represents. The host country retains ultimate control over the land, although it must respect the embassy's independence and immunities. Diplomatic premises are subject to the laws of the host country to a certain extent, but with significant exceptions that allow the embassy to function as a representation of its home country's government.

The answer to your question is no.

dakial14• 2 years ago

How long before EU ask FAANG to "split or don't make business here anymore"?

US won't ever do that because of all the lobbying, but EU might, no?

CubsFan10607• 2 years ago

What would be available for phones and laptops in this scenario? The FairPhone, System 76 laptop... what are the other options? (Assuming you also mean Microsoft)

dakial14• 2 years ago

That's a good point.

Would EU be able to allow selling the phone but not the app store?

Also, what is the line of monopoly or abuse of market dominance that would put these companies get caught in the EU's cross hairs?

pillusmany2• 2 years ago

Not a credible threat. There would be millions of people in the streets if Facebook/Whatsapp/Google were blocked due to EU regulations.

nbvkappowqpeop• 2 years ago

what are you talking about?

dakial14• 2 years ago

Don't really think so. Whatsapp was blocked many times in my country and the only thing it caused was for companies to realize they were relying too much on it and for people start using telegram.

turquoisevar8• 2 years ago

That’s never gonna happen. Something like that would need to be done under antitrust regulation, such as art. 102 TFEU because the DMA isn’t antitrust regulation and doesn’t have mechanisms to establish such violations.

While 102 TFEU (and in particular the CJEU case law surrounding it) has stacked the deck extremely in favor of the EC, in part due to it being designed and interpreted on the basis of European administrative law traditions, a ban or divestiture will only be imposed by the CJEU in the most extreme cases.

A case even the EC, with the entire deck stacked in their favor, will never be able to make. Edit: Specifically for Apple, the others, depending on who we’re talking about, might be a different story.

Astraco• 2 years ago

I don't know what they expect with this, but it will end with the EU's shoe up their asses.

paulddraper11• 2 years ago

I'm the exact opposite of a Apple fanboy, but can you enlighten me with what they are supposed to do here?

EU says "you must allow XYZ in our jurisdiction" so Apple allows XYZ in their jurisdiction.

Right?

---

Tbh, this just seems like unintended consequences of policy. But explain what I'm missing.

paulryanrogers2• 2 years ago

Does one cease to be an EU resident or citizen if traveling abroad for more than 30 days?

klabb32• 2 years ago

IIUC this is a deliberate act of aggression by Apple - which is important to note. Apple already has regional accounts, so the infrastructure for this is in place already, for preexisting reasons. My Apple ID is still within US after months of being in the EU. They have not “kicked me out” yet.

There’s no other way than to interpret this, and the preceding actions by Apple, as a temper tantrum of malicious compliance. That begs a whole new set of questions.

Optically, this is the behavior you’d expect from companies that stopped innovating and are clinging onto power with the power of lawyers. It seems like an incredibly small hill to sacrifice your reputation on.

Are their long term ambitions to live off the 30% cut? Because it sure as hell appears like they’re fighting an existential battle, which doesn’t inspire confidence in their visionary leadership. Perhaps the best thing for Apple is to take away their comfort blanket, so they’re setting sights on innovation again.

wolpoli2• 2 years ago

It sounds like someone in Apple is burning the corporate brand to make their division's target because the target wasn't adjusted in the face of the law. Leadership at the top is at fault.

lancesells• 2 years ago

Apple is showing it's true colors here, and it's not the joyful rainbow of the past.

klabb32• 2 years ago

Yes, but the concerning thing is that this behavior you’d expect from Oracle or similar. The App Store, in-app payments etc is not bad – Apple would seem to be able to compete fairly and still win a big slice of the cake – higher prices but premium experience, like they’ve always done. So.. have they stopped believing in themselves? Or did the sweet taste of monopoly turn them greedy and arrogant beyond salvation in just a decade?

charcircuit• 2 years ago

It's just the reality of global compliance that products end up having to be customized for each region. We were lucky for a while that China was the only country that was overly special, but that time is over.

If you want an existing example of a phone changing stuff as you change countries just look at the modem. Different territories allow for different amounts of power to be used and the phone as has to know the laws to and adapt based off where it is in order to be compliant.

wilde• 2 years ago

Apple has always been litigious and petty. We just looked the other way when they were innovating.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Inc._v._Samsung_Electron....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Computer,_Inc._v._Micros....

gruez3• 2 years ago

[...]this is a deliberate act of aggression by Apple [...]
There’s no other way than to interpret this, and the preceding actions by Apple, as a temper tantrum of malicious compliance [...]

While it's pretty clear that most people here would have liked it if Apple rolled out third party app stores to everyone and were hoping that EU regulations would extend to non-EU users (like with USB-C charging port standard), the reality of the situation is that EU jurisdiction ends at EU borders. Apple is complying with the laws exactly, and characterizing it as "aggression" or "temper tantrum" is closer to name calling than any sort of cogent argument. Chinese regulations require Apple to store iCloud data in Chinese data centers. Apple complies with this for only Chinese users. Should this also be characterized as "aggression" or "temper tantrum"? What's the difference between these two cases beyond "I like third party app stores" and "I hate my data stored in the hands of an authoritarian regime"?

turquoisevar8• 2 years ago

Exactly. They’re following the DMA to a T and because people don’t like that fact, all kinds of loaded language is used to describe the mere act of complying with a law.

They might as well call Apple petty for not throwing in an iPhone with the purchase of a MacBook.

paulddraper11• 2 years ago

Exactly.

And yeah, the policies wind up arbitrary and weird....but that's because jurisdictions are arbitrary and weird. =

em-bee3• 2 years ago

i travel a lot. and that means, i sometimes leave my home for months at a time. more than 30 days.

when roaming with a chinese sim card, all my traffic keeps going through china, regardless how long i leave the country. so for practical purposes, it is like i never left the country.

but if i use an EU sim, suddenly after 30 days i am no longer considered to be part of the EU? as an EU citizen? how does that make any sense?

EU laws should apply as long as i use a EU sim card, regardless how long i am outside of the country. only when i switch sims, then i find it acceptable to say that EU law should no longer apply to my phone.

auselen• 2 years ago

EU jurisdiction ends at EU borders They still charge me EU prices outside though.

neurostimulant• 2 years ago

Chinese regulations require Apple to store iCloud data in Chinese data centers. Apple complies with this for only Chinese users.

Do chinese users that leave the mainland for 30 days got converted to standard apple account with china-specific limitations removed?

Brian_K_White3• 2 years ago

They included an example fact that exposes how the current actions are different from equivalent long preexisting behavior, and so that difference does require an explanation.

margana3• 2 years ago

EU jurisdiction ends at EU borders.

EU law applies to Apple or its subsidiaries operating in Europe. As long as Apple itself stays within EU borders, the law applies to them. It stops applying to them when they exit the EU market. The third parties (including EU citizens) mentioned within the text of the regulation do not define the applicability of the law itself.

paulpan2• 2 years ago

It's crystal clear that Apple is trying to protect its Services revenue, which just grew 11% and hit a new record last quarter at $23.1B (https://www.statista.com/statistics/250918/apples-revenue-fr...). Services is becoming its lone growth segment.

Otherwise why go through the additional overhead and headache of implementing region-specific rules? iOS is becoming branched into 3 forks: EU, China, and rest of the world.

canucker2016• 2 years ago

If this were a court case on TV, the next words from the EU/"prosecutor" should be, "Permission to treat the witness as hostile?"

Someone1234• 2 years ago

This is wildly off-topic, but a prosecutor asking for a defense witness to be "treated as hostile" is redundant. They're hostile by default.

The request to "treat someone as hostile" is about their OWN witness that THEY introduced getting turned into a hostile aka opposition witness.

A hostile witness is a witness who testifies against the party who has called them to testify. The examiner may ask a hostile witness leading questions, as in cross-examination. Also known as an adverse witness.

As I said, a witness from the other side is always hostile, so asking for it would never make sense.

To give an example: Criminal case, prosecutor brought in a on-scene witness to testify. But the witness is arguing against the prosecutor's case/evidence, so they request the judge to allow them to turn a witness hostile which allows a different style of questioning.

turquoisevar8• 2 years ago

You’re right, they completely botched on the applicability of the terminology.

Can’t fault them too much for it though, they did indicate that their inspiration was TV.

diebeforei4852• 2 years ago

30 days is way too low. It should be something like 90 days.

freeAgent7• 2 years ago

Maybe 2190 days.

ChrisArchitect• 2 years ago

Some more discussion yesterday: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39617531

yowzadave• 2 years ago

Is it too much to hope that this is a natural experiment that we can learn from? Either Apple is right, and this will lead to worse security, a worse app ecosystem, and damaged business in the EU…or they are wrong, and their business and ecosystem will be unharmed. If the latter occurs, will it encourage them to rethink their approach and allow for a more open ecosystem everywhere?

lamontcg• 2 years ago

In addition to everything covered above: US company can't imagine someone would take a foreign vacation away from their job for more than 30 days.

reustle• 2 years ago

Oh they totally can, they just want to make the experience outside of the official App Store as painful as possible.

paulddraper11• 2 years ago

Or if they do, they won't be able to update after then.

AnonC• 2 years ago

Apple: “While you are in the EU, you get reduced protections and greater risks due to DMA. Once you are out of the EU, you get the best protections that the Apple App Store offers. No malware. No scamware. No adware. No silly apps with enormously unbelievable weekly subscriptions. No apps that are an exact copy of another. You benefit from our investments and efforts in our legendary and famous app review process. Don’t ask us. Just ask our developers about how great our App Store is.” /s

Seriously though, can Apple claim or pretend that it’s protecting EU residents and that once someone is out, they’re not residents anymore? The 30-day period for something as critical as apps in today’s world is too short though.

rcarmo• 2 years ago

So now I can’t take a Summber break, internship or deliver a project outside the EU? This feels like reverse colonialism.

rchaud3• 2 years ago

Apple will give it a catchier name: iRon Curtain.

CornishPasty• 2 years ago

This sounds very much like Apple being maliciously compliant. Similar to their complaint against Epic Games... I'd be interested to see what the EU makes of this.

DavideNL• 2 years ago

So, does this mean that if citizens who live outside of the EU, say the US, travel to the EU, they will then get access third-party app stores ?

iPhone owners can leave EU for 30 days before they lose third-party app stores

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