Attention deficits linked with proclivity to explore while foraging

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rspb.2022.2584

by Tomte • 2 years ago

50 74 2 years ago

lqet2• 2 years ago

Dr Barack and his colleagues collected data from 457 adults who completed an online foraging game where they had to collect as many berries as possible within eight minutes.
Participants who scored higher on the ADHD scale spent shorter periods of time in each patch of bushes and were thus more likely to gain more points in the game than participants with lower scores on the ADHD scale.

So as I understand it, ADHD in that setup basically introduces chaos / randomness to avoid falling into local optima.

It immediately follows that having ADHD may be a major disadvantage in environments where there is only one global optimum (for example, a highly regulated and deterministic academic environment like school or undergraduate studies, or an established corporate environment).

yamrzou• 2 years ago

So as I understand it, ADHD in that setup basically introduces chaos / randomness to avoid falling into local optima.

Well said. In other words, the ADHD “agent” mostly chooses the exploration strategy in the Exploration vs. Exploitation dilemma.

_boffin_• 2 years ago

This puts so much of my life into perspective.

milesvp• 2 years ago

What I’m curious about is how this relates to other findings that ADHD individuals tend to be better in crises than non ADHD. That is a scenario where honing in and focusing on doing the necessary thing is paramount, and where many just flounder and do nothing.

blowski2• 2 years ago

If that's right, then it follows that giving medication to suppress it is a bad idea for humanity as a whole. Although it may help an individual cope better with a local situation, it would be better to have more situations in which an individual with ADHD can thrive.

andybak5• 2 years ago

You can choose when to take meds and when not to. I was actively encouraged by my doctor to be selective and I have a prescription for both the timed release and the normal forms.

I am fully capable of recognising situations where the meds help and where they hinder.

emayljames• 2 years ago

I'd imagine berry picking is not as appealling for ADHD folks in the modern era.

astrange• 2 years ago

That experiment is slightly funny because there's a popular Hololive streamer who's famous for 1. being ADHD and 2. collecting lots of berries in Minecraft.

pentaphobe2• 2 years ago

Previously

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39503740

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39502145

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39482292

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39464367

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39454924

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39452680

Netcob• 2 years ago

I think it would make sense to study advantages of ADHD in the modern world as well. Personally I think the "default" in our society where you're required to focus for 8h a day on things you aren't constantly enthusiastic about puts individuals with ADHD at a disatvantage, to the point where we can either try to bridge the gap with medication, or find non-9to5 jobs that we are better suited for.

But while I have a strong suspicion that ADHD is an advantage in some jobs, I think it should be studied more thoroughly.

K0balt• 2 years ago

I have often considered my experiences with depression in a similar context. Depression drives me to optimise for satisfaction rather than joy, which makes me into an occasional workaholic where I will obsess over goals, ignoring all other interactions. Could be advantageous in climates where preparation for winter was critical for survival?

lqet2• 2 years ago

I think that's true. Perfectionism / always seeing flaws everywhere and always expecting the worst would have been a major evolutionary advantage in areas where not being prepared for winter essentially meant death for you and all your loved ones.

500 years ago, my ancestors lived in high-alpine settlements. 200 years later, they successfully lived through the 30 years war in an area where 70% of the population starved or was slaughtered to pieces. I always wondered how the traits selected by these events / environments might still affect me hundreds of years later.

imtringued• 2 years ago

Depression is optimal for rumination/pondering. It signals that you and your current environment do not match the ideas you have about what you and your environment should be like.

Either change the environment or change yourself or change your ideal image of yourself or the environment.

Your body doesn't exist for the sole purpose of self harm. It exists to keep you alive and have offspring.

You could think of depression as a dynamically added constraint in a linear programming problem. When you add the constraints, the current solution becomes infeasible, indicating that you can't stay where you are, you must search for the new optimum.

Using medication or telling people to stop being depressed is counterproductive, since it interrupts the process that the depression is supposed to kickstart.

gardenhedge2• 2 years ago

Questions for those who have ADHD: is it possible to have ADHD and not be able to focus on certain things (important conversations, studying, planning) while also being able to really focus on other specific things like programming?

samuelous• 2 years ago

That is one of the hallmarks of ADHD, and also why it can be so hard for other people to imagine what it is like.

mtlmtlmtlmtl4• 2 years ago

Yes, it's extremely common in ADHD. This is called hyperfocus(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperfocus).

Inattention in ADHD isn't really the inability to focus, it's the inability to direct focus.

LittleNemoInS• 2 years ago

Yes, of course. If something is really interesting to the ADHDer, he or she can completely forget every thing else and enter in hyperfocus mode [1].

When one is diagnosed, and aware of this hyperfocus thing, one can use it very efficiently. I, for one, use it to work, with the help of an app called Focus@will, where I can set a timer, and play very loud music, so my brain is focused on the task at hand.

[1] https://add.org/adhd-hyperfocus/

tailspin20193• 2 years ago

When one is diagnosed, and aware of this hyperfocus thing, one can use it very efficiently.

Some can. Others end up in jail [0], or dead [1]. I wouldn't want anyone to assume that if they have ADHD, they automatically have access to some sort of super power - it doesn't always work out like that.

Like you though, I do try to harness this as best as possible for work. Music works quite well as an aid for me too.

[0] https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/jun/18/uk-prisoners...

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5371172/

pentaphobe2• 2 years ago

Yup - for some that's pretty much the whole thing :)

A term to look into: "hyperfocus"

ADHD is sometimes talked about as being misnamed, and as more of an interest/prioritisation disorder than "attention" deficit. [1]

Urgency and other factors can help put things back at the top of the pile (which can of course bring with it all sorts of poor habits to navigate) [2]

EDIT: looks like a bunch of us all posted the same thing in tandem, I'll update this to add some refs so it's not pure duplication

[1] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/we-need-to-rename...

[2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7851038/

tailspin20193• 2 years ago

Yes, 100%. It's not just "possible"... you're describing exactly what ADHD is like for me. This is one reason why I didn't seek an ADHD diagnosis until later on in life. I didn't understand that it was possible to have ADHD and also be able to "hyperfocus" on certain things.

It's also why I think ADHD is such a badly named condition. You don't have an attention deficit you have an attention regulation deficit - which means sometimes you can have a surplus of attention which you (often) cannot control.

gardenhedge2• 2 years ago

How has getting diagnosed helped you? Do you lose the ability to hyperfocus or does that remain?

SushiHippie• 2 years ago

Yes that is basically ADHD summed up (from my experience, I can't speak for others).

Without medication I can only focus on things that I really like or am interested in. On some days there are other topics that interest me more than programming, so it isn't that I continuously can focus on programming, but far more easy and often than concentrating on things that don't give me immediate joy.

So in general I can focus less on studying, planning, important conversations, but this is not the case when I for example study programming related things (I'll easily fall in a rabbit hole), or if the planning is about an interesting topic.

viraptor6• 2 years ago

Yup, if your brain gets caught in a feedback loop of "this makes me happy" and "being happy stimulated means we can continue doing this" you can do the fun stuff for hours without a break and disregarding anything that happens around.

Boring (in a non-judgemental sense - plain) tasks very rarely trigger it. You can kinda cheat though by adopting a new exciting system for doing X to achieve X. (You'll likely abandon the system shortly after...)

mtlmtlmtlmtl4• 2 years ago

This research is pretty dubious given they didn't do thorough ADHD diagnosis on the subjects, only a 6 question self-report test. Then they used some kinda ML hokum to supposedly strengthen their confidence in the results of those 6 questions. Seems pretty sloppy to me.

theultdev9• 2 years ago

It's an evolutionary advantage for humans today.

There's a reason ADHD articles are shared profusely here.

Information moves faster these days, you need ADHD to process it efficiently and hyper-focus on long tasks.

Those who can do that naturally become developers.

You just have to workaround social norms like work schedules.

Helps to own your own business or at least work remotely.

tailspin20193• 2 years ago

Helps to own your own business or at least work remotely.

I wonder how many ADHDers learnt this during COVID. It may have been the first opportunity for some to experience this and perhaps realise that they can work more effectively in a different environment (which they have more control over).

andybak5• 2 years ago

Absolutely. Lockdown was a complete revelation to me. The removal of FOMO and the narrowing of options was incredibly beneficial.

Filligree• 2 years ago

It can be an advantage; it certainly isn't so at all times.

But you're right that most of the disadvantages stem from other people, and aren't inherent. It's more than a bit annoying.

theultdev9• 2 years ago

The inverse is true as well, not having ADHD can be a disadvantage, especially for developers.

(trying to stay focused on a long task or figure something out quickly skimming through things)

hashmal2• 2 years ago

* ADHD doesn't mean you can hop from X to Y to Z superfast/efficiently while remembering anything meaningful.

* Hyperfocus isn't a spell you can cast at whatever task at hand. It happens only when you're really into a given topic... And ADHD tends to push you to procrastinate on things you like a lot: you end-up in hyper-procrastination mode.

Above points can be used to your advantage with great benefit, but it's not automatic. Some people with ADHD compensate intuitively and do impressive stuff, others need medication just to get out of bed. Both of these extremes can be the same person at different times.

theultdev9• 2 years ago

You can learn how to hack your stubborn brain and take advantage of the waves of motivation.

Stimulates are a instant gratification solution, but man take those all the time and you will be pretty damn irritable and mentally tired after awhile.

It's natural for "ADHD" people to work in waves. Long sprints and rest in between. I know it's popular to advocate drugging yourself, but people reach for that too quickly.

Society is the problem, not them.

hello_kitty2• 2 years ago

Those who can do that naturally become developers.

No. Those who can do that become multi millionaires/billionaires. Developers get stuck on the local minima of programming.

viraptor6• 2 years ago

It's not that simple. I mostly got rid of my ADD and haven't noticed any disadvantages beyond learned behaviours that are not productive anymore. You definitely don't need ADHD to keep up with information - for me it's easier without. I can jump between topics, but can also choose not to - that was not an option before.

The occasional hyperfocus is not necessarily helpful either - hours of sleep sacrificed to continue doing something fun are not a great outcome.

theultdev9• 2 years ago

I never said it was simple. Just that it's a trait that can give great benefit.

Anecdotal of course, as is yours. But everyone handles their brain differently.

sidcool• 2 years ago

Well it's not now, so please eradicate it. :)

jjallen2• 2 years ago

Just FYI my ADHD has recently disappeared after eating an elimination diet and supplementing with a few things that are known to be anti inflammatory.

This has caused me to doubt the belief that all modern mental disorders had an “evolutionary advantage” or that we should assume so.

blueyoda• 2 years ago

What diet did you use exactly? I would love to give it a try.

jjallen2• 2 years ago

Email me and I’d be happy to try and help you more than this. Mine is definitely almost gone though. Conclusion is that multiple foods I am sensitive to and cause some sort of immune response/ inflammation.

Although a simple suggestion would be to search for ADHD elimination diet.

Basically I cut out everything but apples pears rice potatoes carrots fish meat olive oil salt pepper broccoli and cauliflower.

Gerard02• 2 years ago

Total noob here. Is there a reference book about ADHD I could read? What are the things "most people" agree ADHD "is"?

xdavidliu• 2 years ago

I liked Scattered by Gabor Mate, though not really a reference work, more a primer or intro

Gerard02• 2 years ago

Thanks!

JohnBooty5• 2 years ago

"You Mean I'm Not Lazy, Stupid or Crazy?!" is one of, if not the, most popular ones. Saw a lot of myself in there.

    What are the things "most people" agree ADHD "is"?

Above all else, it's an executive functioning disorder. Not entirely dissimilar from OCD in some ways.

You find yourself unable to focus on what you know needs to be done, quite possibly because you're unable to tear your focus away from something else.

Inattention, impulsivity, hyperfocus, hyperactivity. Adult ADHD does not often involve physical hyperactivity.

Hyperfocus can be an incredible boon if you happen to be hyperfocused on something useful. But the catch is that it's not a switch you can flip at all and you can't necessarily choose what you're focused on.

There are different subtypes such as "primarily inattentive" etc.

A lot of people don't believe in ADHD or think it's a "lack of discipline" etc.

Like many disorders, symptoms of ADHD are things everybody experiences to an extent and it becomes a "disorder" when it starts to impact one's functioning. In much the way that everybody is sad sometimes but when it becomes pervasive we call it a disorder called "depression."

I think what I've said above is all mostly universally agreed upon.

mtlmtlmtlmtl4• 2 years ago

Actually hyperactivity is very common in adult ADHD, it just manifests differently. It tends to take the form of repetitive movements like shaking a foot, rocking a leg, fidgeting with your hands, etc. It's sort of a naturally developed coping mechanism.

People with adult hyperactive/impulsive or combined type ADHD often don't think of this as hyperactivity, partly because they're so used to it they're barely aware of it, or the fact that it's not normal.

shubhamjain• 2 years ago

I dislike theories like this; how ADHD, and depression could be mechanisms that evolved because of some evolutionary advantage they give us. I am not denying that could be the case, but living in a world full of stimulation everywhere is vastly different from living in a hunter-gatherer commune. ADHD could just be a neurological defect that never manifested itself in a quiet communal lifestyle, and become pronounced with modern technology.

I don't think there's much point in theorizing how it could've offered an evolutionary advantage, because even if ADHD existed at that time, it would be very, very different from what it is today.

corobo• 2 years ago

evolved because of some evolutionary advantage

In fairness that's not really how evolution works. If a person reproduces, their traits are not eliminated. Evolution doesn't optimise for advantages, it eradicates disadvantages that preclude reproduction

ADHD could just be a neurological defect that never manifested itself in a quiet communal lifestyle, and become pronounced with modern technology.

I agree on this - My personal theory is that ADHD is basically just a lower level of background dopamine (expanded thoughts here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39453578) in the same way some people have trouble producing insulin - in the age of basic survival it's probably not that much of a hindrance, there's a constant supply of dopamine spikes. Surviving, being an integral and useful part of the tribe, getting bored of the current berry bushes and moving on to finding the next while the normal people finish harvesting this lot, chasing down wild animals while not being eaten, getting major props for inventing a better pointy stick to hunt with, that sort of thing.

Modern day doesn't really have as much of that - the high enough to matter dopamine spikes are at least much less frequent (compounding that over many years leading to depression and lack of motivation etc)

hereme888• 2 years ago

Did I understand correctly that the study was done with people that displayed ADHD-like behavior, but were not actually diagnosed with ADHD, and then made presumptions about the advantages of ADHD?

mtlmtlmtlmtl4• 2 years ago

Yes.

tmaly• 2 years ago

This sounds like a bandit algorithm of some sort.

Attention deficits linked with proclivity to explore while foraging

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