Study: TikTok Global Platform Anomalies Align with CCP Geostrategic Objectives [pdf]

https://networkcontagion.us/wp-content/uploads/A-Tik-Tok-ing-Timebomb_12.21.23.pdf

by hammock • 3 years ago

280 213 3 years ago

How do they account for variation in demographics of the user bases and the potential that Instagram is also promoting/demoting certain types of content?

oehtXRwMkIs• 3 years ago

In the paper they use a ratio defined by comparing a hashtag's popularity on TikTok vs on Instagram. So it accounts for Instagram's biases since they're comparing to them. Not sure if that's what you're asking.

zztop44• 3 years ago

They’re using the difference between TikTok and Instagram to conclude (by implication at least) that TikTok has a bias. But the same data could just as easily imply Instagram has a bias, or both do. Or something else. Or nothing.

notjoemama4• 3 years ago

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/is-tiktok-banned-in-china/

China has a separate app like TikTok and TikTok is not allowed inside China. I don’t see where in the PDF they address demographics but could you explain how you think that factors into this analysis? The numbers indicate they’re global like other massive social networks.

Also, is the issue with Instagram political in nature like TikTok and China? At first glance it looks like the distribution is controlled based on their publicly available content guidelines. Doesn’t that make it inherently different than non-public content manipulation?

ziddoap• 3 years ago

and the potential that Instagram is also promoting/demoting

The first line of the article is:

analyzed hashtag ratios between Instagram and TikTok

Drew_• 3 years ago

Turning the difference into a ratio doesn’t remove biases on Instagram.

bayindirh4• 3 years ago

How this is different from Meta's "reduction" of pro-Palestinian posts exposure and preventing it from spreading too far?

Does Meta's (or other similar actors') actions align with potential countries' geopolitical objectives?

Can we look both of them objectively and say both are bad (I think so), or is there us vs. them mentality?

JumpCrisscross13• 3 years ago

EDIT: Nvm, misread the Appendix. They’re dampening pro-Israel, pro-Ukraine and anti-Trump content.

Can we look both of them objectively and say both are bad (I think so), or is there us vs. them mentality?

Yes. That doesn’t preclude classifying how they are bad, both commonly and uniquely.

bayindirh4• 3 years ago

It was a honest question. I have no TikTok account, and not opening Facebook app more than a year now. I just share some photography I do on Instagram, but it doesn't cross post to Facebook either.

So, I just wanted to ask and learn.

Adverblessly2• 3 years ago

I think you misread it, the linked study shows that HamasIsIsis is also a suppressed tag. They are suppressing pro-Israel content and promoting pro-Palestine content.

notjoemama4• 3 years ago

Maybe, but isn’t part of the problem contextual? Multiple US corporations have manipulated their content based on sensitivities that are promoted from specifically the CCP and not based on moral outlook of their population. It seems to me that’s a clear indicator of over bearing authoritarian control. Baring any value statements about political systems, isn’t there a political problem with a foreign entity controlling the content of another; particularly when an adversarial relationship exists?

JumpCrisscross13• 3 years ago

isn’t there a political problem with a foreign entity controlling the content of another

We restrict foreign ownership of media properties to 25 percent (without review) [1]. Expanding that rule to social media would make sense.

Beijing requires TikTok run itself differently within China, after all [2]. That’s the difference in care that matters. (Facebook’s lack of care in Myanmar comes to mind as analogous [3].)

[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2013/11/14...

[2] https://www.cnn.com/2023/03/24/tech/tiktok-douyin-bytedance-...

[3] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/15/technology/myanmar-facebo...

bugglebeetle5• 3 years ago

Baring any value statements about political systems, isn’t there a political problem with a foreign entity controlling the content of another

No, in fact, many international newspapers, particularly those in Europe, report more honestly on the US than outlets like the New York Times or Washington Post. El Pais has far more integrity than either of those and it’s owned by a Spanish media conglomerate.

goalieca2• 3 years ago

Meta is run by billionaires acting in their own self interest and it’s obvious when often in conflict with the USA government. TikTok parent company is accountable to the government of China.

foverzar7• 3 years ago

This is a naive reductionism.

Also, the fact that Meta employs lots of spooks is commonly perceived as "Meta is accountable to the US government", which is no less reductionist.

alexsereno• 3 years ago

Of course they do, however an important distinction here is that Meta is banned in China and TikTok is not banned here. Both are bad, but Chinese netizens aren’t exposed to one of the two.

China is quite good about filtering out which propaganda interests they want their citizens exposed to, and of course are more active in influencing operations globally as well.

We can argue if that model of propaganda and control is good or not, but regardless they are smart enough to know that they don’t want to open up their youth to US propaganda machines but are happy to have us open ourselves to their propaganda. It’s asymmetrical, and that causes a lot of consternation. It’s also risky.

stavros2• 3 years ago

Meta is banned because China is a dictatorship, not because bans are good.

cma• 3 years ago

TikTok is not available in China, there is a different version under a different name with different content rules.

ramblenode3• 3 years ago

Of course they do, however an important distinction here is that Meta is banned in China

Meta isn't banned in China. They just haven't developed a product that complies with Chinese law (in large part because US lawmakers warned them not to do this---so more like an export ban than an import ban).

jokethrowaway• 3 years ago

It's worse than that, the content we get in the west is drastically different to the one they get in China.

It's not about exposing the west to chinese propaganda (sure, they'll promote the CCP view of any global topic, but that's often the same as our governments) it's about brainwashing western kids so they grow up to be useless and not a threat.

Would you rather your youths learnt how to cook or do stupid 10s dances? Guess which content gets displayed in China vs the West.

Not to mention the instances of mental illness spreading through tik tok via emulation (eg DID)

miguelazo• 3 years ago

TikTok is not banned here

False. It has already been banned in multiple jurisdictions, companies, and many government agencies.

avalys3• 3 years ago

Speaking as an American, yes, it is most definitely "us vs. them".

China is a geopolitical enemy ruled by a communist dictatorship that wants to diminish America's power, standing, and influence in the world to advance their own. American power and the mere threat of bringing it to bear on our adversaries is what enabled the past three decades of peace, prosperity and progress throughout the world, and China is actively working to undermine and diminish it in favor of their own.

Asking for some kind of balance or symmetry here is like saying it's unfair that fighter jets drop bombs on the enemy and not their own side. Yes, that's the whole point. We win, they lose.

toyg2• 3 years ago

Ah yes - peace in Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Libya, Serbia, Rwanda... Much peace, such prosperity.

I wouldn't choose China over the US any day of the week, but over the last 3 decades they've objectively been more pacifist and prosperous than most US client states. Please tone down the jingo.

Duya-Taksis2• 3 years ago

"China is a geopolitical enemy ruled by a communist dictatorship that wants to diminish America's power, standing, and influence in the world to advance their own. American power and the mere threat of bringing it to bear on our adversaries is what enabled the past three decades of peace, prosperity and progress throughout the world, and China is actively working to undermine and diminish it in favor of their own."

Exactly. Godspeed to China and I hope it stomps the US into the dirt.

"Asking for some kind of balance or symmetry here is like saying it's unfair that fighter jets drop bombs on the enemy and not their own side. Yes, that's the whole point. We win, they lose."

Except it's the other way around. China wins and you lose. Again and again and again.

superduty2• 3 years ago

It’s not.

This nonsense was created as fodder for incompetent and dishonest politicians.

You’ll now hear the least competent ones exclaim things like “a rutgers study says China bad, China spy, China control of social media not same as US government control of social media ugg ugg fire fire”.

Zetobal• 3 years ago

Pretty much acts like an enemy state since the 60s but maybe we are all hallucinating for decades.

slowhadoken• 3 years ago

They’re both bad but foreign propaganda is worse.

mvdtnz2• 3 years ago

Both are bad but there is a qualitative difference between the badness of USA's global objectives and China's global objectives, and the means by which they work towards these objectives. The equivalence people draw between western powers and China is really puzzling to me. And no, I'm not American and I am no fan of American foreign policy.

ZoomerCretin3• 3 years ago

The United States has a history going back a full century of directly and indirectly forcing extremely violent changes in government when foreign governments are insufficiently deferential to American political/economic interests. Kissinger's state department alone aided and abetted multiple genocides and the deaths of over a million civilians.

Not only has the PRC never done this, they take the public stance that they have absolutely no interest in this, and publicly espouse the principle of non-interference in the internal affairs of other countries. The only obvious Chinese global objective is a world where they exist as a non-ideological economic partner willing to profit from trade without strings attached, like America's enforced austerity and privatization "reforms".

ajross• 3 years ago

How this is different from Meta's "reduction" of pro-Palestinian posts exposure and preventing it from spreading too far?

Presumably because Palestine is one salient issue, being moderated at a time of extreme engagement, while the linked article asserts a pattern of such moderation across the site.

It's the difference between "This subreddit doesn't allow political discussion" and "conservative topics are banned on Reddit".

Hnrobert422• 3 years ago

See also, whataboutism.

greatjack613• 3 years ago

(Views are my own and unrelated to my employer)

This shouldn't surprise anyone. Tiktok has made it clear many times over that while they pretend to be in the clear and un affiliated with the ccp they are a direct arm of the ccp that uses tiktok as an arm to influence global politics.

Why this stuff has not been banned as a national security threat is beyond me.

jumpman5005• 3 years ago

Because if we’re willing to export propaganda and unwilling to receive any in return then we’re a nation of hypocrites.

JumpCrisscross13• 3 years ago

if we’re willing to export propaganda and unwilling to receive any in return then we’re a nation of hypocrites

To the degree war and competition are hypocritical, sure. All you’ve done is expanded the definition of hypocrisy to meaninglessness.

blitz_skull• 3 years ago

We should accept foreign propaganda due to… hypocrisy? What does that even mean?

ycombinatrix• 3 years ago

why would that be hypocritical?

avalys3• 3 years ago

This is nonsense. In war, is it hypocritical to bomb the enemy but not your own side? Of course not. Propaganda is a weapon, you deploy weapons against your enemies and you protect your own people from your enemy's weapons.

Foreign adversaries do not have free speech rights in the United States.

nebula880410• 3 years ago

I hope it does not get banned. Even if they try to ban it, they have to then contend with all the people building their careers on it/consider it a essential part of their lives. Might be enough to motivate Millenials/Gen Z to cone out to the ballot box and remove anyone who was responsible. (This is probably why they havent banned it yet)

While I don't use TikTok, its been fascinating watching the US lose its marbles over the idea that there is an avenue for mass dissemination of ideas that they cannot control. It really became real when the Pro-Palestine content translated into mass protests all across the west. Israel really dug themselves into a hole and I sometimes wonder, if this trend continues, what are they going to do once the Boomers die and down the road we get a Gen-Z president?

Sure you have state sponsored channels like RT that try to provide alternative views but they dont have anywhere near the eyeballs TikTok gets and they can be easily discredited.

The last time the US had a major competitor was in the 80s. Finally someone has come along that is challenging the US on many levels, not just social media apps.

I had always wished Europe to get their act together and serve as a democratic counter balance to the US but these days they are not even in the conversation. But at least China is trying despite the fact that they are less than savory.

We will continue to have access to American social media apps pushing their nonsense and acting like they provide freedom while quietly suppressing content they don't like (ex. anti-Israel). Meta/Youtube/X platforms are not going away. I love the fact that the mass market has some choice now.

lpcvoid• 3 years ago

RT doesn't provide "alternative views". It's pure, unfiltered propaganda. Can you honestly navigate there, read something and then claim "yeah, just another viewpoint"?

oefrha3• 3 years ago

Alternatively, Instagram is heavily amplifying the hashtags supposedly suppressed on TikTok, and suppressing the hashtags supposedly amplified on TikTok. You can literally turn the table and use the exact same report as “evidence” of Instagram pushing American geostrategic objectives. More realistically, it’s probably a product of both. We already know Palestine-related hashtags are heavily suppressed on Meta properties.

notjoemama4• 3 years ago

I’d like to see how pro Palestinian versus pro Israeli messaging occurs in traditional main stream news. I think I’ve been seeing pro Palestinian messaging being promoted much more from them and pro Israeli being demoted (more like omitted). This editorializion makes it hard to get a factual view about what’s going on.

oefrha3• 3 years ago

There’s literally an article about that on front page a couple hours ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38745673

uoaei2• 3 years ago

The thing is, one side has seen a loss of life measuring around 20,000 in the past couple months and the other side less than 2,000. So this kind of flattening of "pro-Palestinian vs pro-Israeli" obscures the reality of the situation.

Concerns about "factual views" are orthogonal to which side is getting more press. It is likely (increasingly so, considering the number of times Israel has had to walk back serious claims like the alleged Hamas command center under al-Shifa hospital) that the facts do not support the Israeli narrative and that the level of presence of those claims in the current discourse have come to reflect the news media's skepticism of such claims.

dragonelite• 3 years ago

People are now testing twitter(x).. You get instantly tagged and suppressed when you tweet "fck Israel". But tweets like fck muslims, christians, etc don't get tagged.

So much for musk calling out other social media network for inhibiting freedom of speech for his camp.

oefrha3• 3 years ago

I don’t know whether Twitter was suppressing anti-Israel content back when Musk was personally criticizing Israel. But after he went to meet with Netanyahu alongside Blinken (? I can’t recall) and made completely opposite remarks, this is fully expected.

bratwurst3000• 3 years ago

Why are people still arguing like twitter has something to do with free speech. It’s the personal shitshow of a propaganda apparatus by a maniac with way to much power by means of aggressive marketing.

badrabbit5• 3 years ago

Tiktok and their relationship with CCP is something anyone can see plainly. I mean, if the US government was installing implants (snowden leaks) at US tech companies, if you disagree with my first statement then you must believe China is an even more free society than the US.

The biggest tragedy in america right now, one that fuels the apathy and national self-destruction is the lack of gratitude and appreciation of just how precious and priceless the peace, stability and prosperity we have now (not decades ago but today) is. Americans just simply don't know the levels of poverty and desperation much of the world has seen, it is just impossible here. They don't know that just in the 70s and 80s China was having mass starvations. Their appreciation of their government's ability to lift them out of that and the century of humiliation they had before that is not small (unlike americans).

The world is not a nice place, the CCP is much worse than putin and their goal is not to coexist with the west.

And if tiktok ends up giving the CCP an advantage, whether in the 2024 elections or future cold/hot conflict with the PLA, I for one would lay significant blame on HNers who rallied against Biden's attempt to block tiktock because of b.s. slipperly slop fallacies. They already ban US social media there! This would have been reciprocal, it might have been one of the smallest things that could have been done to avoid possible chaos and carnage in the future. The government does have power to censor foreign companies's speech. Matter of fact, the first amendment does not apply to companies, it applies to people, and no one who uses tiktok would be prevented from using another platform to make the same speech!

This about tech companies and startups worried about "what if I am next".

Your opinions have consequences because people consider many of you on HN knowledgable or experts in tech.

logicchains• 3 years ago

They don't know that just in the 70s and 80s China was having mass starvations. Their appreciation of their government's ability to lift them out of that and the century of humiliation they had before that is not small (unlike americans).

The mass starvations in the 70s and 80s were because of that same government; while Taiwan, South Korea, Japan and Hong Kong were rapidly developing, China was putting people in jail for trying to sell their goods and agricultural products on the private market. The GDP per capita of Taiwan is still three times higher than that of mainland China, which wouldn't be the case if China didn't have a government that made private enterprise illegal for a few decades.

hmm37• 3 years ago

This isn't exactly correct, because of the differences between the countries. China and Taiwan are completely different with a different set of populations. Taiwan was colonized by Japan, and thus industrialized up until WW2 was over. Then it got an influx of the richer and more educated class from China after the '49 revolution. In addition to that Chiang Kaishek took most if not all of China's gold reserves and placed it in Taiwan, thus taking all of China's wealth that it had and allowing it to service a mere 20M+ population, rather than 500M people left in China who no longer had any reserves to trade with the world. Taiwan is much smaller in geography therefore infrastructure building requires less capital, and population was much higher educated from the get go, so it can't serve as a direct comparison.

Japan was already industrialized prior to WW2, and was basically complete in its industrialization by around WW1 if not earlier by a couple decades.

S. Korea could serve as a comparison, but there's a big difference in that it got massive influx of foreign investment from the US, with a major reason being that it serve as outpost against Communism spreading.

When the geopolitical situation started to change between US and China in the late 60s-early 70s, Mao sensed it and already started to have talks with the US as seen with Nixon + Kissinger, which later became the foundation that allowed the influx of foreign capital into the country. Prior to this, China was basically like NK today, with absolutely no outside support whatsoever, with an economy, infrastructure, etc., which includes even basic stuff like irrigation destroyed from civil war, WW2, etc. It was extremely capital deficient. People act like China prior to '49 was some wonderland, and that once the Communist came in, they destroyed everything and therefore there was mass starvation. Not really. China sucked prior to '49, and reading e.g. some statistics from American sinologists like e.g Jonathan Spence, you know that the basic peasant (which represented the large majority of China's population) daily diet consisted of almost no meat, and simply what they called gruel, every day of the year. A peasant normal diet would simply be e.g. sweet potatoes flour mixed with water everyday with maybe some vegetables.

JumpCrisscross13• 3 years ago

CCP is much worse than putin and their goal is not to coexist with the west

The CCP has honestly been fine. (See: Jintao and Xiaoping.)

The problem is Xi. He is a dictator. He repeatedly makes decisions that benefit him in the short term and the expense of China’s long-term prospects. This is very different from his predecessors, and requires treating China differently than we did when they had political competition and the capacity for reflection.

nebula880410• 3 years ago

The biggest tragedy in america right now, one that fuels the apathy and national self-destruction is the lack of gratitude and appreciation of just how precious and priceless the peace, stability and prosperity we have now (not decades ago but today) is. Americans just simply don't know the levels of poverty and desperation much of the world has seen, it is just impossible here.

This sounds entirely ripped off from a Joe Rogan podcast. Sounds like you are in the WASP bubble. You likely haven't experienced living in the hood, having to be treated like a Muslim in the US, having to deal with MAGA people bitching about your existence as a Mexican migrant and many other scenarios. There is plenty to improve in the US and your mentality would have ensured that we never would have gotten things like the Civil Rights act, interracial marriage, or even the immense progress made in favor of LGBTQ rights.

Its not the people that are thankful to their country that enact change. Its the rebels who go against the mainstream and demand justice that eventually make history. They are always called ungrateful haters...at least until they win.

JumpCrisscross13• 3 years ago

You likely haven't experienced living in the hood

My poorest (growing up, as in not concerned about no food, but actually no food and sometimes no housing) friends who travel internationally come back grateful for where they are.

your mentality would have ensured that we never would have gotten things like the Civil Rights act, interracial marriage, or even the immense progress made in favor of LGBTQ rights

100% agree. That said, there is middle ground between bootlicking gratitude and cynicism that borders on complacency.

sciolist2• 3 years ago

We shouldn't reduce or avoid removing any of the struggles you've brought up - those are real and we need to remove them. With that being said, most of what OP said is true: Americans are in a good position because of many factors - national security being an important one. I interpret OP's comment not as a call to rest on the US's good position, but to fight for it and improve it. We can both hold that the US has major issues that need to be fixed, while saying we need to fight against countries that would work to destabilize the US. If we don't fight for the struggles you've mentioned (and other ones!), the US won't improve. But, if we don't also recognize our worldwide position and work to prevent countries from destabilizing it, everything will get worse for everyone. > Its not the people that are thankful to their country that enact change. I disagree, we can be recognize some aspects of a country and be thankful (fighting to keep the good we have) while still improving on others. I hope it is clear I'm speaking in good faith

badrabbit5• 3 years ago

I don't listen to joe rogan or any personality. You don't know a single thing about me, I know and have seen much more than you think that I won't voluntarily share on a public forum.

There is plenty to improve in the US

What part of anything I said disagrees with that? You sir/madam are a prime example of the people I am talking about.

would have ensured that we never would have gotten things like the Civil Rights act, interracial marriage, or even the immense progress made in favor of LGBTQ rights.

And you would have made sure those things would be the least of anyone's concerns as the japanese enslave half of america and the nazis genocide the crap out of all those people you listed. And if it so happens that none of that happens, if you got your way none of those things would happen because america would be too poor and miserable. Or perhaps you don't realize that the civil rights changes of the 60s were a result of post world war prosperity and peace (yes, despite vietnam). Do you think americans in the great depression would even tolerate the civil rights discussion? Do you think they'd share jobs with minorities and women or allow cheaper immigrants from other countries as they are starving?

Or so you think current civil rights can't be taken away? Do you undersrand that the civil part implies civilization? Hungry desparate people, cooking their own children for food out of despair (almost always happens in desperate prolonged famine) do not care about civilization.

Its not the people that are thankful to their country that enact change

Yes it is, the good kind. This wonderful country allowed all the change you mentioned in the 60s without a single civil war, out of the kindness and compassion of a people who can afford it. A century earlier, millions who love their country died for the concept that all people are born equal.

Its the rebels who go against the mainstream and demand justice that eventually make history.

No, it was the rebels in america both in the 1860s, 1960s (US military escorting kids to school because states rebelled against civil rights) and 2021(jan 6) who love their race/tribe more han their country who opposed and failed against all things you hold precious there. Rebellion is always disgusting and treasonous. You must not have heard the speeches of MLK who very much liked America just not all the things horribly wrong with it. He understood that the civil rights movement must work within the system and through civil disobedience and democratic means enact change. Loving your country and appreciating it does not mean you love the politicians or even the government in its current state. It is because you people don't get any if this that you merely pay lip service to progress and all you end up doing is alienating people and dividing up your country and increasing the number of people who share your hatred for their country except they want to do the opposite of you.

They are always called ungrateful haters...at least until they win.

What they are called and what they said and did are different things.

Hating your country until you see change is not how democracy works.

Perhaps you should learn from immigrants who come to america seeking a better life despite their financial situation and like them find your way to a better life if you think there is one to be found.

Your problem is that of perspective. It's usually people who volunteered for a long time in poor countries or military service members who similarly been to those countries that seem to have the perspective I tried to share. A homeless, jobless person in the hood in america has a better quality of life and opportunities than an educated doctor in sub-saharan africa. Forget that, pick a single poor country randomly and and try finding a place where a poor uneducated black gay woman can be treated as a human being to begin with right along find jobs (good ones), be able to actually buy goods with money, be safe and be treated with a semblance of fairness in the work place. That rules out most of asia and easern europe. Maybe south africa (if considered poor),maybe some south american countries but that rules out the jobs and opportunities being good (perhaps brazil? But even then their black people are having an even harder time than american counterparts).

I have many comments about all the things that need changing in america far beyond what you listed. But every single one is because I think this amazing country is worth working on and improving not because I don't like america. And funnily, people have the opposite response to me thinking perhaps I should find another home. Perhaps it is our perspective that is different not what we believe needs changing.

amadeuspagel• 3 years ago

Isn't Joe Rogan italian? How can someone be in a WASP bubble when they listen to Joe Rogan?

Levitz2• 3 years ago

This sounds entirely ripped off from a Joe Rogan podcast. Sounds like you are in the WASP bubble. You likely haven't experienced living in the hood, having to be treated like a Muslim in the US, having to deal with MAGA people bitching about your existence as a Mexican migrant and many other scenarios.

Yet African Americans are WAY better off than those in Africa, and Muslims and Mexicans migrate to the US for better conditions.There is plenty to improve in the US, sure, but it's a better place than the majority of the world, why on the world do you think people go there in the first place?

Hell the US is outstanding precisely when it comes to racism, do you have any idea of how racist people are in Asia? Africa? Even Europe?

ewweezdsd• 3 years ago

If CCP really was "worse than Putin", they would have invaded Taiwan a long time ago already, and killed a couple of hundred thousand people in the process, as Putin is perfectly content to do in Ukraine. But they haven't, which shows that its leadership has at least some competence.

My country shares 1300km of border with Russia, and I would choose China over Russia as a neighbour any day. China might be an oppressive dictatorship, but its still more civilized than Russia, which frankly has never left the Middle Ages in terms of mentality. Apart from perhaps North Korea, there is no worse neighbor in the world than imperialist Russia.

badrabbit5• 3 years ago

Look up the 100 year marathon and mao's plan. Russians are not patient or long term strategizing like CCP. They know they have the population and capability and a head-on conflict in the short term undermined their long term goals. If they have their way, they would win many wars without a single shot being fired. Look at how mighty american companies grovel at the CCPs feet, that's how they fight. Russia tries this also by implementing puppet regimes but their approach is too bold and aggressive and requires too much tongue-in-cheek from regular people. Look at how efficiently China subdued hong kong vs Russia's attempts with ukraine prior to zelensky (his predecessor was a russian puppet).

xnx• 3 years ago

I'm a heavy TikTok user (entirely scrolling the For You page) and can't think of any Israel or Palestine related videos I've seen. If there's any CCP propaganda I see in my feed, it is in the form of efficient Chinese factory and farm worker montages.

zelphirkalt• 3 years ago

If you have not seen any video about such a prominent and important topic, then that speaks for itself. Keep the users in the happy zone, don't shake them awake from the illusion of a peaceful well functioning world of consumption.

dopa42365• 3 years ago

It's almost as if tiktok isn't a news site (at least not primarily).

foverzar7• 3 years ago

Slogans sound fun, but realistically TikTok is just very good at giving you content you're interested in.

If they don't care for this kind of content, they simply won't see it. It's the same the other way around.

Dah00n9• 3 years ago

then that speaks for itself

What is it saying, then? Are you saying TikTok is doing Good Stuff (aka propaganda) for the US government and other western governments? Because that sounds an awful lot like doing what those governments would want TikTok to do, and the opposite of what TikTok gets accused of doing.

creato• 3 years ago

The kind of content you describe is exactly the most insidious and effective "propaganda". Obviously, any given piece of content like that is not propaganda and probably wasn't produced for that purpose in the first place.

But what else do you call it when (if) TikTok makes it 5% more likely you see efficient factories and farm workers in China, and 5% more likely you see the tide pod challenge or whatever dumb self destructive behavior in the US? Such a thing is almost impossible to prove or disprove, yet it would be shocking if the CCP wasn't doing this, considering they do exactly this to their own population.

nemothekid• 3 years ago

As a heavy user of tiktok, most of these claims are anecdotal, and people just see what they want to see. Liziqi[0] has 18M subscribers on YouTube and seems to be far more effective of "soft propoganada" than anything I've seen on TikTok.

Twitter and Instagram Reels is far worse at surfacing destructive trends, it seems like a misstep for the CCP to try and push TikTok in this way when our own homemade companies are more than capable of doing it themselves. Between TikTok and IG, only one of them has a "STEM" feed; and it's unclear why its the CCP trying to push more US kids into STEM.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/@cnliziqi/videos

154573452343• 3 years ago

can't think of any Israel or Palestine related videos I've seen

That's probably one of the reasons why tiktok is being criticised so heavily; that's where they want everyone looking right now, anything that detracts from that is problematic.

The fact that almost all other social media outlets are wall to wall algorithmically pushed hysteria on this topic should perhaps give you a clue. Even here, where political threads are usually promptly removed, the topic is left open for people to pour in the most insanely inflammatory rhetoric you've ever seen. There are multiple posts in this thread alone openly advocating genocide.

lagichikool• 3 years ago

The best solution to TikTok would seem to be for the responsible parties, such as Google and Apple, to add a warning message to apps believed to be controlled by governments. The same way Google already does with YouTube channels.

And for journalists and the government to investigate suspected ties and announce their findings loudly, so that people can make an informed choice.

But actually banning the app, even though it would be a good thing for users, seems like a fraught choice for a free country.

ZoomerCretin3• 3 years ago

The same way Google already does with YouTube channels.

In theory this sounds nice, but in practice it has a very pro-western bias.

For example:

Under BBC videos, the warning is "BBC is a British public broadcast service."

Under NPR videos, the warning is "NPR is an American public broadcast service."

Under CGTN videos, the warning is "CGTN is funded in whole or in part by the Chinese government."

The BBC and NPR are also "funded in whole in part by the [UK/US] government", yet it comes with a much nicer warning.

Dah00n9• 3 years ago

This doesn't work very well when the entity adding the warning is heavily biased.

yorwba2• 3 years ago

Reposting my comment from the previous discussion that didn't get quite so active: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38736001

Their methodology (comparing hashtag counts) does not make sense for detecting whether content is systematically promoted and demoted to fit some agenda. I can make one video, have it artificially promoted to reach a million viewers, and that's a hashtag increment of 1. Or I can make ten videos that are all unfairly demoted and therefore barely get any views, and that's a hashtag increment of 10.

The discrepancy for Kashmir-related hashtags makes me think there are a lot of Pakistanis on TikTok who never use Instagram...

croemer• 3 years ago

That's right, to a first degree, it just seems to be differences in user bases. There may well be nudging going on, but it's hard to discern and would require more complex econometric models.

Of course it's possible that users self-select: those who are pro-Tibet won't post on TikTok as they know that content won't work there.

Would be good to compare other western platforms: is there similar discrepancy between Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, Bluesky, Mastodon? I'm sure there will be some discrepancies.

aragonite• 3 years ago

The discrepancy for Kashmir-related hashtags makes me think there are a lot of Pakistanis on TikTok who never use Instagram...

Also, India banned TikTok, so there's no Indian TikTok accounts pushing alternative viewpoints/hashtags. It's not hard to imagine how that might have led to the observed results, and it's a little odd that ctrl+F-ing "India" produced no result in that report.

theteapot• 3 years ago

Article states:

... we replicated TikTok’s own methodology used in its November 13, 2023 letter.

So Tiktok's own methodology doesn't make sense? Goes on to say:

NCRI analysts examined the volume of posts on TikTok by hashtag, using the platform’s own ads manager portal. We performed the same analysis using Instagram’s explore feature.

Are your 10 shitty videos aren't going to show up on the ad manager portal?

yorwba2• 3 years ago

The referenced letter by TikTok https://newsroom.tiktok.com/en-us/the-truth-about-tiktok-has... contained this caveat:

In addition, the number of videos associated with a hashtag, alone, do not provide sufficient context. For example, the hashtag #standwithIsrael may be associated with fewer videos than #freePalestine, but it has 68% more views per video in the US, which means more people are seeing the content. And, some hashtags are newer (e.g. #standwithIsrael) while others are more established (e.g. #freePalestine)–the vast majority (9 in 10) of videos tagged #standwithIsrael were posted in the last 30 days in the US. A difference in views and posts is expected.

I would assume that my 10 shitty videos (fyi they're actually very good, just unfairly withheld from viewers) would nonetheless show up in the "number of posts with this hashtag" provided by TikTok's ad manager portal, but I haven't tested this.

gibbitz• 3 years ago

If the overall concern is exposure to propaganda, why waste time blocking the holes it comes in through? Wouldn't it just be simpler to educate our citizens to identify propaganda? I would think this would also help to keep the powers that be in this country in Check as well... I find it worrying that we can see how effective propaganda has been at polarizing our country but no one wants to address all propaganda, just the other side's version. If this were to become a basic core competency in our education system, I guess it would undermine advertising as well, but IMO that would be a plus...

23B1• 3 years ago

Wouldn't it just be simpler to educate our citizens to identify propaganda?

Sweet summer child

2OEH8eoCRo08• 3 years ago

The propaganda is in controlling the dials/levers of what is seen which gives an artificial sense of prevalence. You can tell any story you want- make elderly people beating up young people trend more and people will think it's a common occurrence.

I think mandatory transparency into the algos is a start but that assumes nobody tampers behind the scenes which would be trivial w/ software.

woooooo3• 3 years ago

There's also the propaganda accusation as propaganda.

If TikTok skews young and they have a viewpoint that's different from entrenched power, we can just blame the Chinese.

nullindividual• 3 years ago

Wouldn't it just be simpler to educate our citizens to identify propaganda?

TikTok is currently running a commercial on Twitch (and I assume elsewhere) which shows people explaining what good they themselves are doing and it is "because of TikTok" with a final message that (possibly paraphrasing) says "TikTok Does Good".

The government would not only need to educate their citizens against the lies of capitalism, but their own lies, as well.

Imagine if 350 million people became resistant to the messaging of capitalism?

The world might actually be a better place!

foverzar7• 3 years ago

The goal is to guard against wrongthink and ensure that people act and think like their politicians want them to act and think.

On the other hand, give them a framework to think for themselves, expose them to inconvenient perspectives, and this will endanger livelihood of so many powerful opportunistic people.

jeffybefffy519• 3 years ago

Or even introduce regulations about foreign influence on social media which should define how the platforms are run.

dhriensjsu• 3 years ago

Wouldn't it just be simpler to educate our citizens to identify propaganda

That US ruling class would not last long (much like the Chinese and the Russian, etc). The US has been in near continuous war or financing continuous wars for over 70 years. You don’t have to look far to find a citizen who’s lost something dear. And somehow the pattern continues.

Watching some of the WW2 propaganda videos put out by the allies is very eye opening. Our elites have gotten very good at convincing us to fight to further their goals (which only loosely align with the commoners).

simonsarris• 3 years ago

Wouldn't it just be simpler to educate our citizens to...

yeah, maybe we could create a state-controlled social media app to educate via subtle influ-

But seriously if someone has found a strong, repeatable, almost flashcard-like vector for transmitting information to millions, its going to beat your education plan. And even then, even highly educated people are not immune to propaganda.

hotdogscout• 3 years ago

Relevant:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Document_Number_Nine

Extremely relevant with each passing year:

https://youtu.be/hhMAt3BluAU?si=URc2oDbqWRptJm0s

ilrwbwrkhv• 3 years ago

Apple, google global platform anomalies align with us geostrategic objectives.

I do not know why this is news. Every single large company in every country has strong ties to the govt and works in sync with it. It's not a big secret.

factormeta• 3 years ago

And Telegram align with Russians. Don't use these Faangish platform period for personal communications. Once there is a user based they will be bought by huge geopolitical influences.

Use Matrix, Masterdon, email, phone for communication and only see these platform as publishing platforms to target these specific geopolitical camps.

terminous• 3 years ago

Sure it may not be a big secret, but I would say that any substantive report about any systematic platform anomalies that align with any geostrategic objectives are relevant posts for HN, be it a platform in the US, China, or any other country.

Refusal to discuss any of these because it is something everyone ostensibly knows... Now that is suspicious.

poopiokaka• 3 years ago

This lab generally puts out mediocre work. Are they self posting here?

mulmen• 3 years ago

Is this deliberate or the geopolitical equivalent of shipping the org chart?

WhereIsTheTruth• 3 years ago

That's called social engineering, the US also abuses its position as leader to spread their propaganda all around the world

Let us not forget about Facebook / Myanmar

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/09/myanmar-faceb...

The west calls it "pursuit of profit", i call it intentional social engineering, since we all know most of the social media apps have for "content moderation" team former CIA agents, and part of their existence is due to CIA/NSA research grants/programs, and the US has clear interests in that region, for that one specific case

https://qz.com/1145669/googles-true-origin-partly-lies-in-ci...

This is why it is important for parents to properly educate their children when it comes to social media, i would personally prohibit them all

But let's be honest, TikTok is the least harmful of them all, Twitter and Facebook comes to mind first when it comes to political propaganda, as well as disturbing content

Wanting it banned without expecting all the other ones to follow is disingenuous, to say the least, or it is perhaps "propaganda" ;)

invig• 3 years ago

Give up control of what you are consuming at your own peril.

ramblenode3• 3 years ago

I'm not disinclined to believe that TikTok promotes pro-China sentiment, but this report is far from academically rigorous and has gaping holes in its methodology that would not pass peer review.

* Most notable is that the baseline for determining whether a hashtag has been boosted or deboosted on TikTok comes from Instagram---hardly an unbiased source of ground truth, especially in light of the recent allegations that Meta deboosts pro-Palestinian content and other controversial political content.

* Worse is that there's no statistical analysis showing that generic political hashtags are significantly different from China-sensitive political hashtags between TikTok and Instagram. There is large variance within categories, and even some of the generic political hashtags show a bigger difference between platforms than the China-sensitive political hashtags. Statistics would help determine whether a real difference exists beyond sampling error, but none are to be found in this report.

* No explanation of how the hashtags were determined. They were apparently chosen a priori by the authors, but no criteria for inclusion or exclusion are mentioned.

* Other small details like discrepencies between Fig 2. and Fig 3. in describing TikTok as having half the hashtags as Instagram and Instagram has having double the hashtags as TikTok.

Overall, this report just seems like fodder for the anti-TikTok crowd, not a dispassionate inquiry into how TikTok trends relfect CCP narrative building.

Morte42• 3 years ago

The fact that they are using Instagram as a control in the study is hilarious. The standards in these universities are laughable.

Hnrobert422• 3 years ago

One does not necessarily follow from the other.

nneonneo• 3 years ago

And that’s why it’s being posted as a white paper, not an academic paper. No peer review required!

rutierut• 3 years ago

Overall, this report just seems like fodder for the anti-TikTok crowd,

Can confirm, I do belong to that crowd and I did share it after reading it. An hour later, it dawned on me that this report is maybe kinda cool, but really isn't enough to draw any conclusions from and I should not have shared it.

rakkhi• 3 years ago

Totally. But it still makes front page of HN. It will get shared. Most will read just the title. Confirmation bias of echo chamber.

So much bs in western msm propoganda. Do yourself a favour in 2024. Open your eyes. Read widely. Apply logic. Don't believe everything that is force fed down your mouth.

Thorrez• 3 years ago

No explanation of how the hashtags were determined.
Our presentation of data starts with Uyghurs and Tiananmen Square because those were two topics specifically called out at the March 2023 Congressional hearings, and TikTok’s CEO explicitly denied that in either case were posts on those topics suppressed or in any way demoted on the platform

ramblenode3• 3 years ago

The Chinese-sensitive political hashtags are somewhat straightforward (they are topics that one would expect the state to be sensitive to), but there should still be a systematic procedure for choosing them to avoid biased sampling and post-hoc comparisons. The problem is more apparent with the controls: where do they come from? How were they chosen? Without this information there is no way to determine whether the categories are truly representative and whether the sensitive topics are really unique.

phendrenad2• 3 years ago

Sufficiently advanced gathering places for unpopular opinions are indistinguishable from government propaganda outlets.

api• 3 years ago

I’m not sure why anyone finds this hard to believe. Do US media companies tend to align with US geostrategic objectives? Now consider that the link between the Chinese state and its companies is much firmer and more authoritarian than it is in the US.

hsuduebc25• 3 years ago

Smallest surprise of the year. And year is ending.

Dah00n9• 3 years ago

It is very clear you jumped in already biased and completely ignored all the great comments already here telling how awful a "study" this actually is.

hsuduebc25• 3 years ago

Sure. It was a joke. I'm convinced that this is clash of powers from all sides using all tools to dominate over other. I just happened to be born at one of them which determines your side. But I do believe that western country treat their inhabitants better than for example Chinese one.

actuallyrizzn• 3 years ago

I've worked with NCRI before. I worked on a paper about DAOs, blockchain, memecoins and market manipulation. While it may not be intended to pass peer review, they do bring to light novel concepts and trends and do so in an intellectually honest way... fwiw.

mingKun• 3 years ago

As a Chinese, I can use YouTube, X, and Instagram, but I can hardly use TikTok,it detect which country my SIM card belongs to. I often come across false content about China on Western social media, which significantly outweighs the real content. Of course, there is about 10% of real content that I cannot access on domestic social media platforms. Regarding China, Western media consists of nearly 80% false content and 20% real content, with the real content being mostly negative. The information about the West in China is similar, where the saying "all crows are black" applies.In the end, we live in a safe authoritarian country. Of course, I wish to live in a true democratic country, but does it exist? The United States? Hilarious.

Study: TikTok Global Platform Anomalies Align with CCP Geostrategic Objectives [pdf]

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