Car dealers say they can't sell EVs, tell Biden to slow their rollout

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/11/car-dealers-say-they-cant-sell-evs-tell-biden-to-slow-their-rollout/

by no_wizard • 3 years ago

22 78 3 years ago

harryquach• 3 years ago

EVs are expensive, so it's not surprising.

ChoGGi• 3 years ago

Cheaper EVs would help, but teaching st/dealerships that their service bay isn't going to be their main profit centre will be a long road.

smileysteve7• 3 years ago

This is going to be a key transition factor;

Dealerships (maintenance and new sales), Oil/Exhaust/Brake, and Gas stations will decimated -- as car owners no longer have a system that neglect (oil, coolant, high temp exhaust, high temp seals and sensors) causes an end of life event.

At most, battery packs will be neglected when cars sit, but vehicles today with a the sensors and systems that run lithium ion batteries safely will reduce many of the impacts of neglect.

But mostly new sales, even used market sales; the interior will be the primary part of a vehicle that ages (ignoring the effect of salt on roads)

FirmwareBurner3• 3 years ago

EVs still use oil and coolant though just that the oil never needs changing. And EVs still have issues needing you to go to the service. My mate had to take his ID.3 to the service 3 times due to SW issues. EVs aren't immune from issues.

foxyv3• 3 years ago

I honestly don't trust car dealers. Most of them are scammers trying to bait and switch, inflate prices, sell worthless warranties/upgrades, and generally screw everyone to the best of their abilities. People order cars and have to buy through them, so the dealer takes the car and sells it to someone else for more. Then, when you actually get the car, if it breaks down they will charge you for in-warranty repairs.

They were the worst with EVs and Hybrids. In the meantime, with work from home, a lot of people are realizing they don't need a car. Everyone else's car payment is going to doubled grocery prices and doubled rents. Also, good luck buying anything affordable, because the lots are filled with F-150s and SUVs.

downrightmike3• 3 years ago

Good luck finding a sedan for less than $30k, manufacturers are only making expensive cars if they make any. They seem to think the market wants those FX50's or SUVs, but that's because they can charge a lot more for them. Well, they can charge that, but as we see, the vehicles just sit in lots at this point.

FirmwareBurner3• 3 years ago

Good luck finding a sedan for less than $30k, manufacturers are only making expensive cars if they make any.

There's still affordable car makers in the west. Meet the Dacia Duster 2024 Hybrid SUV, starting at 20K, up to 30K fully loaded (Europe only). Probably gonna sell like hotcakes.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/dacia-duster

itsyaboi• 3 years ago

A 2024 toyota corolla is ~$22k.

foxyv3• 3 years ago

Another thing that gets me is the insurance. The videos of Teslas spying on drivers and reporting hard acceleration while raising people's rates. The $500/month insurance costs for every other insurance provider. All because the car has to be a way-too-fast status symbol. Meanwhile people just want to get to work/school/home without crashing into a tree or spending their kid's college savings account on insurance.

mindslight2• 3 years ago

I've been in need of a truck for the past several years. And due to life circumstances, I would likely have just paid the new vehicle premium. But based on everything I've been hearing about prices, availability, and dealer games, I haven't even been looking. When the rampant price inflation has subsided and salespeople are back to choosing whether to splurge on the premium can of dogfood, then perhaps I'll think about it. Of course by the time this happens I'll have more bandwidth for maintenance, and with the unsafe touchscreens and antagonistic surveillance systems they're cramming into new vehicles, I'll probably just end up with an older model.

foxyv3• 3 years ago

Chevy makes some fairly decent no-BS trucks I hear. Stuff with knobs and buttons instead of touch screens and driver cameras.

downrightmike3• 3 years ago

We should EV even harder

kcb• 3 years ago

People don't want $60k+ Fords and Chevys.

NewJazz8• 3 years ago

The Mach E is 43k MSRP. The lightning is 50k. The Bolt is less.

instagib2• 3 years ago

Lightning: Price Detail

Base MSRP: S1 $49,995

+ Destination: S17 $1,995

= Total MSRP: S16 $51,990

= Est. Net Price: S5 $51,990

stewarts• 3 years ago

Every Mach-E or F-150 Lightning in my area is minimum 70k. Packages and markups run away from base MSRP very quickly.

vannevar• 3 years ago

They might be telling that to the administration, but the problem is apparently not so severe as to get them to drop their prices. I'll believe them when I see deep dealer discounts on EVs.

toss12• 3 years ago

Key quote:

> "And then not only are EVs more expensive, but their own salespeople are untrained. They don't even know how to answer most of the questions they get. A lot of them have 100–200 percent turnover of their sales staff in a given year," Reigersman told me.

IOW, the dealerships only want to sell what is easy. They do not want to invest in their people to learn how to sell the cars. They all grumble a bit when the manufacturers require $$Millions in capital investment to sell & service their cars, but are now balking at expense of training their people.

It is far past time to kill requirements that cars cannot be sold direct. If the dealership cannot or will not sell the EVs, then the companies should be able to route around dealers.

I'd bet we'll suddenly find that their salespeople are all trained up and selling EVs like hotcakes after that.

JohnFen3• 3 years ago

They don't even know how to answer most of the questions they get.

Do people actually believe anything a car salesman says anyway?

toss12• 3 years ago

>Do people actually believe anything a car salesman says anyway?

Used car? Very little

New car? I've found a few good ones, and much of what they need to say is verifiable (e.g., in the specs in a brochure / official website).

I think the point was that customers can't even get basic info out of these people, and they aren't even offering their usual level of encouragement to buy. I.e., the car sales people (and the managers failing to provide training) are not doing their jobs. If they don't want to do their jobs, then the companies should be able to route around them.

takumo2• 3 years ago

It's true, car dealers "can't sell" EVs. Not because people don't want EVs, but because dealers either don't want to sell them, or don't know how to sell them.

I've owned 3 EVs since 2016 and I've been to franchise dealerships each time. I've been to dealerships both with and without dedicated or specially trained EV sales reps.

Sales reps who've not had any specific training on selling EVs, working in dealerships with no dedicated EV showroom space are _terrible_ at selling EVs IME. At best they're disinterested in making a sale, at worst they actively discourage you with all the common EV related FUD.

Showrooms with dedicated space to showcase EV product offerings, information about EVs and which have marketing material actively incentivising the benefits of an EV, also have sales reps who are knowledgeable, helpful, and actively seeking to close a sale.

hitpointdrew4• 3 years ago

I don’t want an EV.

EV’s will never be a viable option until they are better in every facet than a combustion engine.

The charging is cumbersome and much longer than filling a gas tank, hard pass.

I would buy a combustion engine car, even if it was more expensive, for this reason alone.

takumo2• 3 years ago

If you think inserting a plug into a socket is "cumbersome" perhaps. Plus you can do it at home, while you sleep. If you're on a long trip the range is long enough now that is a good reason to stretch your legs and hydrate.

busterarm5• 3 years ago

Californians don't realize that in most of the rest of the country, the infrastructure still isn't there.

There's a reason car sales in NYC are still sub-1% EVs.

Talinx• 3 years ago

That not every customer wants an EV or that an EV is not the best car for every customer is no excuse for sales reps being subpar when it comes to EVs. Especially when the car industry does not take sales rep performance into account when evaluating EV sales at dealerships.

castlecrasher2• 3 years ago

Mostly agreed here. We love our EV...for short drives. For longer ones, we have an ICE minivan.

dzhiurgis• 3 years ago

IDK it saved me few hours. I did 22000 km with my EV. That 2.2 tons of fuel saved which is about 36 fills which is 3 hours at 5 minutes each.

During my ownership I did 3 longer trips. Total charge time is about 1.5 hours.

JohnFen3• 3 years ago

I don't want an EV. Well, I'm not opposed to an EV, but I am opposed to a car that phones to someone's server somewhere. That excludes (AFAICT) all EVs and non-EV cars of recent vintage.

givemeethekeys• 3 years ago

Why would I buy an inferior EV from a dealer when I can buy a better one directly from Tesla?

LUmBULtERA2• 3 years ago

Don't even get me started on how awful dealerships are. I test drove an Ioniq 5, and the vehicle itself was pretty decent. But then when I ask what the out-the-door price is and they all went on the "let's go inside", sit me down, ask for every piece of personal information, then make me wait even longer and tell me they need to go to talk to a manager to get a f'ing price. Tesla is much better than that, but their competition in the U.S. is total shit so I don't think they're even trying to compete as hard here as in, e.g., China.

AnimalMuppet• 3 years ago

Where I am, at least part of the reason for that is that the sales tax varies by county - not county of the dealer, but county of the buyer, which I think is kind of crazy. (Yes, it makes it so that the dealers don't all cluster just over the line in the county with the lowest sales tax. Still...)

So if you want the actual price (and thereby to avoid the "we told you $X, but it's actually $X+Y" mess that makes dealers look like slimy crooks), then they need enough information to tell you the actual price. You want an estimate? They might give you one, with some amount of uncertainty. You want an accurate number? You have to give them every single bit of information that affects the price.

LUmBULtERA2• 3 years ago

It's easy enough for them to say $X plus sales tax for your county. The sales tax is easy to calculate for anyone, it's the $X that matters.

pjkundert• 3 years ago

Crappy EVs sold by sleazy salesmen aren’t selling?

JCharante2• 3 years ago

Today, the supply of unsold BEVs is surging, as they are not selling nearly as fast as they are arriving at our dealerships—even with deep price cuts, manufacturer incentives, and generous government incentives.

have they tried improving the quality of the cars?

yumraj3• 3 years ago

Personally, I would love an EV, in CA.

Problem, currently I can’t get solar (townhome, old roof, HOA). And without solar, with PG&E prices which keep going up, I’m not really sure EVs make a lot of sense given their cost and the fact I’ll have to spend $5-$10K (not exactly sure) to install the 240V charger.

One of our cars is a plug in hybrid, so with 110V overnight charging for many trips and gas range for longer trips we get the best of both.

Our next car might also be a plug-in or a hybrid. EV, I just don’t see a good option ( sorry, FWIW, not going to consider a Tesla due to Musk)

UnFleshedOne• 3 years ago

If you already have a plugin hybrid and a good portion of your trips is under its EV range, why would you need an EV anyway?

yumraj3• 3 years ago

Yes, I feel, may not be correct, that plug-in hybrids are a little underrated. Most have very short ranges, I wish the range could be longer. Rav-4 has the best range that I know of, but they are hard to find and with the newer tax credits hard to justify, as they are not built in the US they don’t qualify for tax credits.

OTOH, I hate oil changes, so that is my personal reason to go full EV since technically they require less routine maintenance as they are simpler.

NewJazz8• 3 years ago

I mean you'll have to do the math, but if the income based payment models go through, marginal kWh will be noticeably cheaper.

yumraj3• 3 years ago

Actually I think it’s going to increase the total for most average income and above folks..

But you do make an interesting point, that marginal might be lower which may change the math. Hadn’t considered that.

sonicanatidae• 3 years ago

So a business based on shafting customers constantly is now decrying that they can't shaft people fast enough, because people are tired of spending entirely too much money on a vehicle.

Cry me a fucking river.

emmender1• 3 years ago

the yuppie rich in sunny states have their EVs already.

the poors need reliable transportation to get to their workplace to feed their families and pay rent

smileysteve7• 3 years ago

Have they tried investing in a charging network?

Tesla packaged their early vehicles with unlimited super charging for life - and a nation wide network -- with test road trips publicized; and if you buy a GM/Ford today you have to pull up to a heavily Tesla branded station, pay a premium, use an adapter --- or pull up to chargers that are often slow and unmaintained, with waiting lines, and require a different app at every different station.

smileysteve7• 3 years ago

Imagine if GM -- perhaps with partnership with another manufacturer invested a portion of today's $10b buyback in a national charging network; possibly doubling the ability for Americans to charge with high quality, branded and integrated (like Tesla).

But nope, a stock buyback.

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/11/29/gm-buyback-dividend-guidance...

rawgabbit• 3 years ago

Hybrid vehicles have much lower inventory levels, supporting Toyota's argument that consumers want a stepping stone to fully electric cars. There's a relatively tight 44-day supply of hybrids industrywide, according to Cox. Toyotas are in particularly short supply — under 30 days each for Prius and RAV4 hybrids and plug-in hybrids.

https://www.axios.com/2023/07/10/unsold-electric-cars-are-pi...

soul_grafitti• 3 years ago

Personally I think the availability of rental EVs has done a lot to dampen excitement about _owning_ an EV. It certainly did for me. Driving one is a lot of fun but using it outside about 100 miles of where you park it each night is fraught.

Insurance rates are much higher because of the extremely high repair costs for even minor collisions. Consequently EVs are 'totaled' much more easily than equivalent hybrid or gas vehicles. Eastern Europe is doing a booming business in refurbished EVs shipped over from the US.

Then there are the issues of battery production and disposal which can do a lot to mitigate the environmental benefits of an EV.

These details, aside from charging, weren't readily apparent at first. But they are real and they are expensive.

Car dealers say they can't sell EVs, tell Biden to slow their rollout

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